I know all of you with your understanding and wisdom can help me difuse the bomb here...<BR>My H sent this e-mail and I will cut and paste it here... Also I have written my response... Tear them apart... ask me questions, dismantle the madness!!! I go now to cut and paste... it'll be a reply on here, and then will come my response, also in the form of a reply... Are you all there???<BR>I'll be right back....<P>U2BC

here.... its ugly....<P>H wrote...<P>well...you said you would call me back. you didnt. i just add it to the list...<P>im up and awake.. i spose to be sleeping cause i have to get up..but i cant.. <P>now i just let the phone ring 50 million times.. noone answers..<P>even when you had a portable phone you didnt anwer it half the time..<P>im hopeing of course that this time tho its becuase you cant hear it..<P>i know it might not seem like much to you..its just a nother little thing huh? <P>should be meaningless maybe? not when its what bare little bit i get...<P>that i share that i dream about us.. or that 50 good things that i ever say to you are<P>completely wiped at any moment by one thing bad i might say to you, and then you so <P>easily forget anythign ever nice came out of my mouth. you are my wife. even if i dont live <P>with you. i know it to be a fact. i know what god thinks of it. of course i do.you always come <P>across like your trying to share or impart some biblical knoledge to me...<P>anyways.. guesse we can add that to you being the leader in the household.. altho you<P>cant be.. but you try..im really depressed.. i just got done crying.. i know you cry.. sometimes <P>i wonder about what tho..if its even anything about or like what i get upset about.. <P>you know...<P>i bet if i called a certain someone else, they would not only answer the phone at any<P>hour, but they would have a shoulder for me to cry on..<P>you probably think thats pretty unfair of me to say huh?<P>IT probably even hurts.. but you know whats even worse?<P>that its true.. that you arent cabable of such things for a long time now..<P>and whats even sadder? those use to be the qualities i held in high regard about you..<P>this is about the time when you start throwing blame on me again becuase you<P>i screwed you over and you have a automatic get out of jail free card, so you dont<P>have to be forgiveing or have any capacity to love or need another person anymore..<P>want to get mad? tell me to divorce you? scream at me? throw some more blame on me?<P>well then DO IT and get it over with. =(<P>it might be touchy.. but..YOU have to change. how you are now, the cold callous person <P>i cant touch with a ten foot stick. THAT HAS TO GO.<P>if i buy you 3 yaughts, 48 steamships, 8 buildings, and 4 parking garages, if i work <P>3000 hours a week and bring home 50 million dollars a day,<P>if i cut off my balls and beocme a unic, and move us all out to a island where its only<P>us, i build a huge alter and become a monk..<P>IT DOESNT MATTER.<P>if you do NOT change your attitude, and carelessness.. despite the FACT of how i feel<P>about you..then your NOT worth haveing..you know why?becuase you can go to church 7 <P>days a week, you can pray 50 million times a hour, andyou can still be as godless as a stick.<P>only you can change you. i cant. and im sick of begging you to 'be like how you use to be'.<P>want me to be this upstanding christian fellow? why dont you be the forgiveing<P>chrsitian wife? no? dont want to? oh gee.. write down your wasteful reasons becuase they <P>amount to naught before god. then why are you bothering with the charade...<P>You can stick your head in the dirt and ignore me to death if you want. thats your<P>choice. i just wish you would make up your dam mind!<P>get with it or get out of it and go live in your merry little dream world.<P>at least then i might have some peice of mind becuase you made a decision.<P>dont need me? you dont care anymore? only want to do it for the kids?<P>i hope that is a lie. cuz if it aint... then i dont even know you.. and its pathetic ive ever had <P>any feelings about you at all IF that is the case...so..do you love me?<P>are you willing to get off your [censored] and show it and try to do something about any of<P>this? either divorce me or love me.. i cant stand this in between garbage any longer..<P>it sure doesnt help me get any closer thats for sure..<P>signed:<P>a very depressed and lonely H who just wants to see an end of a tunnel somewhere<P>are you who i think you are? or am i just a notch on your lil spiritual gun...

here is my reply.... hav'nt sent it yet...<P>I WANT tour input!!!!<P>Been thinking about the final question/ultimatum you asked in your e-mail..... <BR>(wanted to say first that your phone call this morning before you left to your interview, was very sweet, very considerate (thank<BR>you for prayers) and I would like it if all of our contact was that pleasant and positive!) <BR> <P>...... of course its not what I really want at the moment. <BR> <P> ..... but I've decided that the bottom line would be; if at this time I am forced to an ultimate decision, based on the belief I<BR>have now about our situation, and the fact that she (your Other Woman) is still enough of a part of your life that the OW can be<BR>used as a threat...I'd pick divorce, and not giving love... <P> I read what I think you mean, but I don't know if thats what you really meant..... I feel like were aliens, and in order to<BR>even begin again, we first have to learn each others language.... <P>......correct me if I'm wrong here.... but that remark about "a certain someone(the OW)" was like, "give me what I want or<BR>someone else will" and by that same token it is like saying, "I don't care what you want or feel, I want what I want." ....... am I<BR>off base?? <BR> <P>My current assesment - if that's the right word, Is that the condition that caused us to separate in the first place is still existant<BR>THE OW.....and just as you have proven by expressing yourself in such a manner, it leads me to believe that If our relationship<BR>suffers and we should be in an ugly circumstance again, (and it will at one time or another suffer) then you will find your<BR>satisfaction elsewhere.... I can't live with that threat in my life! <P> Some days I wish you would have been living with HER this last 6 months or more, and that you would get sick of her and<BR>not ever want to have anything to do with her, or have anything around that reminds you of her (like I feel) ever again in your<BR>life, then maybe I'd have enough peace to give myself totally to you again once my trust level was built back up.... Right now, I<BR>wouldn't trust you not to dump on me even as A friend... I don't feel I can count on you in ANY way.... <BR> <BR> I wish we knew a good Christian couple to be mediators for us....I have a hard time seeing or understanding beyond my<BR>feelings, and I think its the same for both of us..... We need someone in the middle to interperate our thoughts and feelings and<BR>make them understandable to the other person....I wish you knew someone (what about &&& & $$$) you were comfortable<BR>opening up to, because I, like you, want to see the light at the end of the tunnel...This would not be councelling, mind you, but<BR>just someone to keep us from fighting/feeling threatened and help us work to some agreement about this whole mess so that we<BR>can have some finalization/conclusion.....

Well for one thing, it would sure be helpful if this guy could learn how to spell and write a coherent English sentence, wouldn't it?<P>What a big baby...putting the blame on you, twisting things around. And that "If you won't, somebody else will" crap. Grrrr....that just makes me so mad. <P>I don't have any advice or wisdom for you, but you sure as heck aren't wrong here. He's making no sense...just being self-indulgent.

I don't know for sure but it sounds like he is trying not only to blame you for everything but force you into a decsion. He can then say I tried but she wouldn't be forgiving etc. Maybe you need to put the blame back on him, you wouldn't be this way if he had fulfilled his marriage vows. He needs to give you time to get over the hurt he has caused. What does he expect you to do and fill he has taken everything from you love and trust and replaced it with anger, distrust, and fear. And he keeps the wounds open by talking about he can getwhat he wants from here. I know we are suppose to lovebust and that is what is going to happen here unless you can tell him off very sweetly how I'm not sure. Just my thoughts on the subject.

DO NOT SEND YOUR REPLY....<P>

DO NOT SEND YOUR REPLY....<P>

Thanks for the input thus far...<P>TNT...Why??????<P>I want help so I know what to do....

Yeah, what she said. “DO NOT SEND YOUR REPLY....“<P>I think you are correct in that neither of you understands what the other is saying or wants.<P>May I suggest a good book on communication?<BR>We Can Work It Out : How to Solve Conflicts, Save Your Marriage, and Strengthen Your Love for Each Other by Clifford I. Notarius <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399521372/o/qid=938059626/sr=8-1/002-3780084-4556267" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399521372/o/qid=938059626/sr=8-1/002-3780084-4556267</A> <P>You did pretty good in that you told him, “is this what you said?” It’s called mirroring & it is a way to make sure you understand what the other is saying by telling them what you heard. But I feel as if you are saying it with clenched teeth.<P>How can you be forced to make a decision? Either you want to save the marriage or you don’t. When you are tired of all the crap & have done what you could, then you won’t want to be married. Until that time comes, hang on.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

used2Bcozy -- forgive me for jumping in, but I think I have to agree with with trustntruth and Chris. Don't send your reply. Your H's E-Mail was sooooo confusing and disjointed. and his threats, while I know they hurt you, sound like a desperate attempt to get you to respond. If you "need to respond, simply apologize for not answering the phone when he called. Tell him where you were. Tell him wether or not you want your marriage to work.<P>Don't stoop to his level. Especially if you do want your marriage to work.<P>Just my opinion. Good Luck.<P>God Bless

Chris....<BR>Thanks for the information...sometimes I wonder if I am ready to quit.. OW has been in our lives for 4+ years, and with an OC now I don't think that I'll ever be rid of her.. Im tired of this whole mess... The one thing I did agree with H about, was wanting to see the light at the end of the tunnel...<P> <BR>EmptyShell...Ok, so I already told him I was tending to pukey tummies during the day and fell asleep curled up to a sick little girl,as exausted as she was... didn't hear the phone...Its been some hectic days, teething baby, girls with sick tummies, and me doing my best to fight a cold... Im beat and then I have to deal with this too...<P>At least I had the presense of mind to come here and post before I fired both barrels back....<P>Cozy <<<sipping honey and lemon tea>>>

used2Bcozy -- I'm glad that you came here first. And I'm very sorry that this frustration is continuing for you. I will say an extra prayer for you tonight.<P>By the way. I hope the girls are feeling beeter.<P>God Bless

Dear Used 2 be Cozy:<P>I am sorry leaving you hanging like that, the server cut me off - that is how I ended up with a double post, and I couldn't explain myself to you, but everybody else had good advice.<P>Man, you guys communicate with one another like my husband and I were doing for so long. No wonder you guys are in a state that you are in! Really, check that book out that Chris is suggesting. I have bookmarked it, but we haven't bought it yet. It is something I think that will help my husband and I tremendously, and maybe even help him overcome his "conflict avoidance style". I think the root of conflict avoidance is not knowing how to resolve conflict.<P>I believe you are a Christian, and that is convicting your husband right now. That means that God is doing his job, and you don't have to! I mean, yes you need to do your job, of course, but you aren't the one who needs to rationalize and bring your husband into the "light". God can do that. Let him.<P>Okay, and the other thing I wanted to say, was: Don't try to impress your husband with your persuasive style, and defensive/offensive attitude. Don't get caught up in his style of communicating. Try to understand the jist of what he is saying, rather than disecting and picking apart every little part of his message.<P>Reading through it quickly, and then re reading it over and over again is really painful. <P>I think he feels abandoned, and shut out and like he is being punished for all of his mistakes. Whether this is a correct feeling or not is not for us to say. But, I think, this is how he is feeling.<P>You are feeling that you need to defend yourself, and make sure he understands that you are better than him. That isn't what you wanted to hear, was it? But, I would imagine, being on the receiving end - that is what I would gather from what you were saying.<P>I guess, rather than picking apart the words and it's rational, try to understand what your husband is feeling. <P>My mother told me to not write something that can come back and haunt you. So, be really careful what you write to him, because he can re-read, and re-read and re-read whatever you write. Written word impacts so much more heavily than the spoken.<P>So, I guess if I were you, I wouldn't try and prove my point, and I would instead work on trying to "sooth him over" or calm him down, in love. <P>And, I would do this new communication style with him, regardless if the marriage was going to continue or not. It is good practice, and you will have a relationship with him for the rest of your lives, as you have children together.<P>Get those walls down! Start taking them down, brick by brick. Build a bridge with the bricks you take down! <P>I heard a man that so desperately needs answers, and needs encouragement, and love.<P>

Tnt...I understand what your saying...I wish for enough strength to keep this mess from making me collapse..<P>If I maybe had seen just a little bit of change, but I don't... Still sitten at his moms waiting for the world to change for him is my impression of it all....<P>Maybe its my lack of tolerance cuz Im worn out, but gosh, 6 months separated and no change is stinky...<P>Yes he is very needy... I used to be drawn in by that as in my own disfunction, I needed to be needed.... Im trying to get away from responding to my disfunction though, I want to get unstuck from my garbage... I think H doesn't like that... liked to play on my insecurity and disfunction.. gave him control... and if I'm disfunctional how bad is the OW still hanging out waiting for him...GAG.. the fact that she planned on haveing a MM child is warped enough...<P>Now I'm ranting...Make some sanity in my life please... Time to sleep I guess....

OK , I'm going to try to give you my 2 cents without making anyone mad. Mind you I am not condoning what he did or how he went about it.<P>I do agree that you do not send your reply, Not that one. Ask him to clarify what he is saying so that you two can start to talk. You need to understand his perspective and vise-versa.<P>I also agree with TNT. He is hurting and in alot of pain. This by no means compares to your pain just different. I feel his frustration and need to give an ultimatum. As a man I am a fixer and need to have things resolved asap. When that doesn't happen I get frustrated and FREAK out. I will be irrational and feel the need to get some sort of conclusion. Perhaps this is part of what he is going through. <P>You say that he is needy and in part you were needy too. Maybe he kind of expects you to be there for him while he is needy as you were in the past and now that your are not he is confused and really hurt by this. <P>Its easier to give ultimatums than to be patient. Its easier for the other person to make the decisions rather than making them on your own. Perhaps he is wanting you to do all of this because he can't. I keep asking myself about my W, is she trying so hard to continually hurt me and leave me frustrated that I will file for divorce so that she won't have to?? Who knows, maybe he can't do it and is hoping that you will just to get it over with. I say don't help him with any decisions that you don't agree with.<P>I could sit here and speculate forever what he might be thinking but when it comes down to it only he knows ( maybe he doesn't know himself ) I guess the bottom line is COMMUNICATION. Get him to elaborate on what he said to a point where you understand what the heck he is talking about.<P>If you love him and continue to show him maybe it'll get through that thick male skull we men lumber around with. It does take awhile ( for me anyway ) Trust me, I know what he is going through. I also know what you are going through. I'm on both sides right now. The pain for both of you is very real..... Also very different. Be respectful of the cycle that you both have to go through in order for this to pass. I personally feel that any relationship can work with effort. I still have an enormous amount of hope for my own.<P>You are in my thoughts U2B and I hope this helps you out in some way. I really do feel for you and wish there was some magic something that could make this all disappears for us all...........<P><P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Thanks Rutger..<P>I do see a need to have H clarify himself..<P>My problem as I sit on the recieving end of mean selfishness like that is that I remember what my last year in plan A was like.. <P>Here was my typical day....<P>6am H comes to bed after being on puter all night.. wakes me up so I can rub his back and put him to sleep...7am H is asleep I get teen son off to school and get girls up to breakfast, homeschool,(laundry, dishes etc.) lunch and quiet time (yeah)2:30 son home I go out the door to work and H is still sleeping Son watches girls cooks dinner cleans up...H gets up gets on puter...Son reads girls devotions and puts them to bed, goes to room to do homework,goes to sleep... Midnight, I come home give my H all the attention he needs to try and win him from OW...2am I go to sleep....Repeat cycle....(Sunday and Church was a blessing and got me through the next week)<P> Now mind you, I did the last 9 months of this pregnant....I looked like a monster with the rings under my eyes from stress and lack of sleep....<P> H has never held a job, and when he did, he spent the money...IVE DONE IT ALL... and he said..."you don't need me !" DUH I get more sleep and more done with less stress, and yes I get lonely, but does wanting a good hug mean I need H ????<P> Then there is the stuff OW bought him.. I couldn't afford the $5000 dollar drum kit, dont want to look at it... But H is a drummer and will never give that kit up... There are other gifts too.... also expensive. as I was killing myself trying to keep a roof over our heads and feed us, the OW just has my H to spend her money on.... Who would look better to a selfish, needy man....<P>I feel yucky and at my wits end today... my other girl now has the pukey tummy, and my cold is at its peek.... I NEED PRAYER<P>Thank you all for being here...<P>cozy

Golly cozy, You are under tons of stress. I didn't mean to invalidate your feelings.<P>It's just that you have to understand in order to be understood.<P>You take care, and I'll send a prayer up for you.<P>God Bless.<BR>TNT

I know I'm thinking of ME, its hard to remember WE are suffering...<P>H is waiting for a reply....<P>Can you wise people help me format one???<P>I've done 1 year pretty good plan A, although I hadn't a clue there was such a thing, and then we separated 6 months ago...doing a pretty open B... Do I do a full B, and how do I word it???<P>I cant give love when OW is still there.. It feels just WAY WRONG....<P>cozy <<<in a mental funk>>><p>[This message has been edited by used2Bcozy (edited September 23, 1999).]

Hi Cozy -<P>Haven't had much advice for you, but I just had a thought!!!<P>Do you think that OW has taken care of him like you have or is she an opposite of that?<P>While Iam in writing mode - I am trying to formulate something for you but would help with the answer.<P>Hugs, and hang in - we're thinking!<P>Sheba

1) Apologize for not responding immediately<BR>2) Explain what caused you not to hear the phone<BR>3) Restate that you want your marriage and family to be happy<BR>4) Restate that you are willing to give 110% to work at it<BR>5) Elaborate and mirror what you hear he felt, and then ask him to clarify his FEELINGS<BR>6) Use the I feel statements: When this happens, I feel... I need.... <BR> a) regarding his attack<BR> b) regarding his indecision<BR>7) Tell him what your game plan has been for coping mechanisms, and ask him if he understands and if he can live with it, and if not what you can do to change<BR>8) Ask him more for input, about how he FEELS when you aren't available, and what he needs you to do to change that feeling<BR>9) remind him that you believe in HIM, and that you believe in YOU and that you believe in "US"<P>I guess, I would be so ever careful not to offend and to speak the truth in love. <P>DO NOT LOVEBUST, IMPLY BLAME, MAKE DISREPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS, MAKE EXCUSES, DEFEND, OFFEND, OR TALK ABOUT THE PAST.<P>Keep the goal in mind. The goal, the goal, the goal. Convey H O P E in your relationship, in him, in you.<P>And, I'll be sending a prayer up for you as this transmits to you.<P>God Bless.<BR>TNT