I'm having a hard time understanding an issue and would like to hear from all WS's who might be able to explain so that I understand better.

I clearly understand most of the reasons that WS's choose to have affairs. (Romanticism, companionship, escape, etc.) I'm just having a particularly hard time wrapping my arms around the fact that so many seem to completely disregard the moral issue surrounding the decision to begin an A. Why is the fact that "it's just wrong" and "damaging to so many" not enough in itself to prevent people from going down that treacherous path?

This is not a 2x4 "set-up" and judgment will not be passed. I simply do not understand! Please enlighten a passionate, compassionate BS, (now part-time Dad). Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FR

FR,

Intertestingly enough, H and I just discussed this very thing last night.

Here is what he has to say..

That by the time he was "ripe" so to speak for the A to happen, he had already made so many moral compromises on a small scale [small enough to not set off his alarms] that his entire perspective was altered..and it wasn't until the shock of having done something he really did not think he was capable of doing..not until then did he look around and notice how far OUT he had gone. For my H at least..it was a journey of inches..and since none of those inches until the last was so VERY extreme..he was able to deny the accumulated distance.

Don't know if that's the sort of answer you are looking for..but it made sense to me.

Noodle

Also, why do we NOT have affairs. My emotional needs were certainly not being fulfilled. I'd love romance, companionship and escape but I'm not having affair. Would I if the opportunity had presented itself? No.

Fog and alien abduction are the best reasons I've seen here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That by the time he was "ripe" so to speak for the A to happen, he had already made so many moral compromises on a small scale [small enough to not set off his alarms] that his entire perspective was altered..and it wasn't until the shock of having done something he really did not think he was capable of doing..not until then did he look around and notice how far OUT he had gone. For my H at least..it was a journey of inches..and since none of those inches until the last was so VERY extreme..he was able to deny the accumulated distance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle: Yes; your quote is in the direction of what I am looking for. Basically you're saying that H kept "lowering his bar" of morality over time until the A was not a drastic change from his behavior (or beliefs?) of the recent past. [Is this correct?] My next question would be; did you notice that his "moral code" was slowly shifting - and if so, what were the signs? Also; do you feel that his perspective about all moral issues were changing, or only those associated with marriage/infidelity etc?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, why do we NOT have affairs. My emotional needs were certainly not being fulfilled. I'd love romance, companionship and escape but I'm not having affair. Would I if the opportunity had presented itself? No.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great Question Grapegirl: I agree. Most of my EN's had not been met for more than 14 years - however infidelity was NEVER a consideration. Despite several "opportunities"; it was simply not going to happen - with anyone! I'm "old-school" in that regard and to be honest - it was easy for me to say no to each advance, no matter the persuasion, looks, etc. I always told myself; "You gave your word to this woman, to love, honor... and also to God. It's etched in stone. EN's will be met, I just have to keep the faith and keep trying!"

I wonder why the difference in keeping morality in check about other "wrong" issues such as drugs, theft, physical harm, etc. but not infidelity?

FR

Double-Post!

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Fishracer+ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Fishracer+:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That by the time he was "ripe" so to speak for the A to happen, he had already made so many moral compromises on a small scale [small enough to not set off his alarms] that his entire perspective was altered..and it wasn't until the shock of having done something he really did not think he was capable of doing..not until then did he look around and notice how far OUT he had gone. For my H at least..it was a journey of inches..and since none of those inches until the last was so VERY extreme..he was able to deny the accumulated distance.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle: Yes; your quote is in the direction of what I am looking for. Basically you're saying that H kept "lowering his bar" of morality over time until the A was not a drastic change from his behavior (or beliefs?) of the recent past. [Is this correct?]

Yes, correct. His behavior was entirely consistent with the lifestyle he had come to embrace.

My next question would be; did you notice that his "moral code" was slowly shifting - and if so, what were the signs?

Yes, I did notice, and yes it was. The signs were..oh not ALL obvious..but if you view them as a whole in retrospect they become much more so. He was in trouble at work. He was friends with all singles who were significantly younger than himself. He was partying and drinking heavily. He was restless. He dropped all of his hobbies and interests. I could go on and on.

Also; do you feel that his perspective about all moral issues were changing, or only those associated with marriage/infidelity etc?

Um, this is sort of a chicken or egg question..because in order to maintain the lifestyle..he had to change his beliefs..at least to some degree. As he said..making compromises..making concessions..living in denial.

I also think this answers the question below. Why no A for me? The necessary process had not occurred for me, I did not make the compromises..held the boundary and standard in my own behavior..so I was unhappy but not wayward.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, why do we NOT have affairs. My emotional needs were certainly not being fulfilled. I'd love romance, companionship and escape but I'm not having affair. Would I if the opportunity had presented itself? No.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great Question Grapegirl: I agree. Most of my EN's had not been met for more than 14 years - however infidelity was NEVER a consideration. Despite several "opportunities"; it was simply not going to happen - with anyone! I'm "old-school" in that regard and to be honest - it was easy for me to say no to each advance, no matter the persuasion, looks, etc. I always told myself; "You gave your word to this woman, to love, honor... and also to God. It's etched in stone. EN's will be met, I just have to keep the faith and keep trying!"

I wonder why the difference in keeping morality in check about other "wrong" issues such as drugs, theft, physical harm, etc. but not infidelity?

FR </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

And another thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That low level anxiety..that would be a signal to most that something is amiss..had become the norm..so he was not sensitive to the danger in transition. So used to fuctioning with the siren in the backround..so used to dismissing it.

He says [and I believe him] that he really and truly did not think that anything was going to happen until it did..and by that I mean..until it was very "in your face" happening with no subtlety. KWIM?

Noodle

FR,

Many months after the Xws morphed back, I asked him this very question. His response was leaned towards:

'Well, by the time I realized where I was, I was soo embaressed and felt soo guilty that I decided that I could not redeem myself, so I just let it all go.'

Now to me that was fog babble. I told him so. Then he went on to say:

'But as hard as I tried to close my eyes to what I was doing, I would keep hearing and seeing you and our son. I tried hard to get your out of my heart and head but I could not. '

These were semi-nice words to hear but I still wasn't convinced. See I am of the belief that if you know it's wrong, FIXIT! Not so easy in the A.
He continued his explanation:

'You wouldn't give up L. You just wouldn't. It would make me happy and angry at the same time. It tore me up that I could see what it took to fix it but I just didn't have it in me. It was easier for me to make you angry than to face reality. So I proded you into confrontations, I tried to pick fights with you, I deliberately would say things to hurt you because if you hurt more than I did, it somehow temporarily made me feel less guilty.'

Now as angry as it made me to hear this, it was true. It was his admission that I wasn't crazy. It gave me the strength to know I was on the right path and this deviant WS did not throw me off as much as I had thought he had. Whew! Sigh of relief, yet now my anger was beginning to boil. So I asked him, was it worth all that anger and effort? Did you really find your better self out there?

His response: 'I thought I would but I didn't. I found some things I liked to do (he claimed he and OW had a lot in common), but I realized doing some fun things was not worth losing my family over. I never realized how much I needed my family.'

I saw a selfish moment here and got more angry. Now I had to temper myself because I was fuming. A few cleansing breathes and his life was spared. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I then said: 'you do realize that we know we no longer need you.'

He looked hurt and shocked. He did not respond.
I let him stew in that thought for what seemed t/b an eternity. Then I said: '....but we still love you and want you not as a WS but as our H and father back into our family. The choice is yours earn our love back or the choice is ours to kick you out because see when you were a WS you taught us that we can live without you; however, at this time we choose not to.'

He teared up at this point. He realized he was allowed back by our good graces. We were the better choice (vs homelessness w/o a family or even worse, living with PBR).

From that point on, it was no longer about what Orchid and family s/d for the Xws but rather what H is doing for his family. Big attitude adjustment.

I kept my son in the loop. Taking the Xws back was a joint decision. My little one (who was about 7 at the time told me that he loved his dad but not the person he had become. He also said he was sad and embaressed at how his dad acted. That he understood that as long as dad acted mean, his dad should not be living with us because we don't need to have mean people in our house. Wow, talk about support. That little guy really helped me keep my focus clear. He also told me that we woudl make it. He said he would give up all his toys if his dad came home but only with a good attitude. Whoa.... I shared that piece of reality with the Xws. He was shocked and said he understood. I was proud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My little one told me that we would be ok as long as we sticked together. wow. That was enough to keep me going.

BTW, I keep plan B in my back pocket as a backup plan. Always have a backup plan. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Noodle:

(Not sure what KWIM is!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says [and I believe him] that he really and truly did not think that anything was going to happen until it did..and by that I mean..until it was very "in your face" happening with no subtlety. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There still seems to be a bit of: "I couldn't help myself", "The devil made me do it" and "It happened before I could stop it..." to these statements. Am I on-track?

Would you agree with the general theory that WH as with all WS's has/had a "character-flaw" that attributed to A? If so, what are you & he doing about that?

L:

Thanks for sharing so much! Just a few questions for you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, by the time I realized where I was, I was soo embaressed and felt soo guilty that I decided that I could not redeem myself, so I just let it all go </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IOW: Was this kind of like a "well, I'm late anyway, so I might as well stay out all night because there is really no difference in 1-hour late or 12 hours late...?" Isn't that a form of self-denial?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...See I am of the belief that if you know it's wrong, FIXIT! Not so easy in the A... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you're the fixer in the family eh? BTW; I agree with u.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You wouldn't give up L. You just wouldn't. It would make me happy and angry at the same time. It tore me up that I could see what it took to fix it but I just didn't have it in me. It was easier for me to make you angry than to face reality. So I proded you into confrontations, I tried to pick fights with you, I deliberately would say things to hurt you because if you hurt more than I did, it somehow temporarily made me feel less guilty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see this a lot here on MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found some things I liked to do (he claimed he and OW had a lot in common),... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Mr. Selfish was in command at this time!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then said: 'you do realize that we know we no longer need you.' </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost choked when I saw this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I said the same thing - but it didn't work for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Your DS sounds much like DD. Loves Mom - but not her actions. DD is using "fog-babble, alien intrusion" lingo in counseling sessions when talking about WXW. Making the best of a tough sitch. She's a trooper - no doubt about it!!!

Thanks.

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FR, I dont want to speak for my h, but I have a feeling that in his mind, the marriage never should've happened in the first place, he was done with it, so whatever he chose to do was OK in the end--the ends justify the means sort of thing.

He's still doing this--more and more all the time.

It is all SO selfish and all about "Me". These WS's need to take a second look at the whole "life" picture. It makes me sick! I am taking care of and loving two of the most wonderful children I have ever known, as she carries on a "single" life 3 miles away!! She has not seen her children since 1-9-05 (One of which I brought up since he was born 14 years ago, but is not biologically mine. And SHE collects child support!!). She hasn't spoken with them on the phone in two weeks, and then it was brief. She blocked our # from calling her! I would NEVER do what the WS does. Especially with children, THEY DID NOT ASK FOR A BROKEN FAMILY! Sacrifice, commitment, maturity for Christ's sake. All I have to say to the WS is GET A LIFE!!

Okay Fish Fish, but you promised no 2x4's.

I am a Christian and yet I committed adultery. It wasn't like I woke up one morning and decided that I was going to attach myself to another man, it snuck up on me, and in a way - it didn't.

Yes Intruder, those involved in an affair are horribly selfish. It feels so good and you get so addicted to the "rush" that you get with that other person. I had to push God aside when I had my affair because it was the only way I could carry on with it. Even though I pushed Him aside, He still convicted me of my sins.

We all have choices in life - I chose to have an affair. I chose this over my marriage, my faith, my well being. Yes the whole think snuck up in a way but I chose to cross the line. Maybe not at one sitting, but I did.

Personally I don't buy into the whole thing of it being all innocent fun and then boom - you are intertwined in some torrid romance. God gave us the gift of free will. We all make choices in life - some good, some bad. No one held a gun to my head and said, "choose this man over your marriage."

Okay, so I'm rambling... Getting back to what Fishman asked. I set aside my faith in God in order to enjoy what I wanted, not what He wanted. Idolitry in it's truest form, worshiping myself over my Lord.

I spoke to Steve Harley about this last month.

Steve said the reason people get involved in an affair is because "they FAIL to protect their greatest Weakness."

Usually a character flaw, they need to dig deep and find out why they allowed this to happen.

Why is the fact that "it's just wrong" and "damaging to so many" not enough in itself to prevent people from going down that treacherous path?

Because I was a coward. My M was broken, my wife an alcoholic and coke fiend. She chose to destructive behavior over me time and time again and I couldn’t fix it. Worse than that, I couldn’t understand it or control it. I took the coward’s way out. Since I couldn’t fix our M or understand why it was broken I chose to create a situation I could understand. I chose to break the M in an entirely different manner. One that I could surely understand why the M was ending.

She had an affair, I already knew the pain it would cause but I did it anyway. At the time the fog-induced justification let me tell myself that I was hedging my bets. Protecting myself against any future cheating.

Why didn’t the moral issues bother me?

Because my core had been rotten away and replaced with evil.

IMHO there is a sense of entitlement that allows a wayward spouse to commit adultery. I think some people enter into marriage never really taking their promise of fidelity very seriously. If and when the opportunity presents itself to break their marriage vows, they don't try to refrain. They just indulge, assume they can control how far they go in the infidelity, and that it will never be exposed anyway so why not have some fun?

It's not exactly hard to find support for infidelity. I'm pretty sure most of the feedback my WH has gotten from others about his adultery has helped him to justify it. So even those with twinges of guilt can easily find 'support' for what they're doing.

I once heard this on a Chrisitian radio program about adultery:

Adultery makes you stray farther than you thought you would stray...
Makes you stay longer than you thought you would stay...
And makes you pay more than you thought you would pay.

Like any addiction, it starts with what is assumed to be a little bit of 'harmless' indulgence, that nobody needs to know about.
Next thing you know you have this huge gorilla on your back.

Also, it's very common in our society to blame the betrayed spouse for not meeting all the needs of the wayward spouse (never mind whether the betrayed spouse would LOVE to do so or not).
AND there is little to no expectation from society that the wayward spouse, or unhappy spouse, should have any responsibility to work on the marriage rather than simply partaking in pleasure elsewhere.

If you think about it, most of the info betrayed spouses learn from this site and books about adultery, is NOT common knowledge in our society. All most people 'know' about the causes of adultery sounds an awful lot like the same excuses adulterers employ to justify adultery, doesn't it?

To compound the ignorance, few people know how to respond to adultery in a way that will help the victims. It's become commonplace to just want the victims (betrayed spouse AND children) to just get over it. The fact that they actually expected the wayward spouse to be honest and faithful, and that they are upset because the wayward spouse betrayed them and lied to them, is somehow twisted around to signify that the victims are 'not handling it right' or 'not getting on with their lives', or even are 'being vindictive' towards the adulterers! The victims of adultery are pressured, not just by the adulterers but often by others too, to hide their hurt and depression lest they spoil the adulterers fun!

OK I think this is what happens sometimes:

The wayward spouse doesn't see anything wrong with things like:

going out to lunch with a coworker of the opposite sex

chatting with other people more than they talk to their spouse

a little 'harmless' flirting now and then

listening to others complain about their relationships

complaining to others about their own marriage

having conversations/friendships online that their spouse is not aware of

So they feel OK about indulging in these activities. Then when these activities lead to something more, they realize too late. If you think about it, even when the wayward spouse has gone too far, and realizes it, they rarely are the first to admit the leading-up-to activities were wrong too. Look how much resistance WS's have to ending all contact with the OP. They often argue that they should be allowed to still be friends with the OP, shouldn't have to stop working with the OP, shouldn't have to give the betrayed spouse cell phone and e-mail passwords, etc. Clearly there is rampant public ignorance about the precautions that need to be taken in every marriage, not just briefly after an infidelity. Spouses who want this sort of accountability and precautions in their marriage, whether or not they have been betrayed yet, should not be treated as if they have a trust or control problem.

MM,

Your last post just caught my eye. My H is guilty of all of the things you mentioned. His A started w/both of them talking & the more they talked, they started to reveal more personal information about each other. He has also been the type to "innocently flirt" w/other women. They had a very good friendship & it escalated into something more. During the whole time b4 he decided to leave, he didn't think he was doing anything wrong. And, after we were separated, he slept w/her one time, which he thought wasn't wrong either b/c we were separated & he wanted to move forward w/a D.

Since his return, he has analyzed his behavior & has come to realize that all of the events leading up to the A were wrong & just b/c you're separated doesn't mean you're able to act like you're not M'd anymore. He has done a lot of soul searching & realizes that instead of going to her to complain about his M, he should have come to me, regardless of my reaction & we could have dealt w/it then instead of all this drama that didn't need to be.

Love in Christ,
Y

Hi Maddy: So sorry for your sitch! Your message should be the topic for a separate post.

Intruder: Your sitch is exactly the reason I started this post. My DD's are highly affected - yet WXW is convinced they are "fine".

Chackler: No 2x4's from me on this post! I've also learned that adultery is an equal opportunity offense and often includes Christians. As a Christian; how much do you believe Satan is involved in A's? Another question: Did you read the Bible, continue going to church, etc. before and during the A? If so; what was that like?

TA: Agreed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I was a coward.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Robby: I'm interested in your story. Given another chance to control your own actions in the same sitch; what would you do differently?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO there is a sense of entitlement that allows a wayward spouse to commit adultery. I think some people enter into marriage never really taking their promise of fidelity very seriously. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortal: I agree 100%. Marriage vows are very powerful when examined clearly and taken to heart. Many miss the message of these vows which is why we're all here! Good replies!

I'm still not clear why WS's choose to live totally for the moment and "life is only about my needs". Selfishness seems to be the overwhelming cause - but I'm looking beyond the selfishness. What causes this selfishness? There are WS's out there who would gladly die for their spouse's and/or children's well being (even while in the midst of A) - yet choose to destroy their emotional lives, present and future through infidelity. This may be a question for the ages and will never be understood. But I've gotta try to understand!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FR

I think the first step down the path to moral decline is the ability to lie.

You start off with small lies...you`re not called on it...you`re not held accountable...you get away with it...

And eventually it snowablls. The lies get bigger and bigger. The more you get away with the more you try to get away with.

And then the WS begins to lie to themselves...

I won`t get caught...

I can do this and no one will get hurt...

It`s not wrong....

I can do this and still be highly thought of by people who DON`T know....

As long as I can keep this hidden it`s perfectly okay...

Once a person makes a commitment to tell the truth...to become an HONEST person...in all circumstances...

An A is no longer possible.

I don`t think it`s a question of morality...WS`s lie to themselves about their morality, they don`t think they are being immoral...they are just really good liars...so good in fact that they believe their own lies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

I think there are several factors which led to the A in my w's case.

1) W had an addiction to OM - to talking to him by phone - even before we married. The summer before we married, she spent every dollar she earned to pay the phone bill (he was in eastern europe and at that time it was more than $1/minute to call him). That addiction was established before we were engaged, when it was legitimate for her to talk to anybody she wanted to talk to (although she also called him at my expense during this time - costing me, even before we married, several hundred $$). She told me that she was finished with him, that she chose me - but the addiction was not so easy to give up. I didn't take him seriously as a threat, since he was thousands of miles away and almost pennyless. Whenever she felt depressed (which was most of the time), she reached for the drug (talking to OM).

2) As aislyn said about her H, my W felt (and still feels) that the marriage should never have happened. Her POV is that her parents forced her to marry me. If she's in a bit more responsible mood, she might say that she married me to please her parents. I agree that her parents were horrible to her - telling her "You are nothing without AD. If you don't marry AD, we'll never speak to you again." To a large extent, I accept her POV (that she was forced by her parents). If I had fully known what was going on between her and her parents, I would not have married her. I should have picked up on it anyway, but I was blinded by love. But, did her parents force her to tell me that she loved me?


3) Because she felt like she didn't marry me of her own free will, she did develop a sense of entitlement - and has said something to the effect that because she is so much younger than me, she doesn't have to do anything for me - other than "be young". Her attitude is that since I have this great prize "the young wife", she can take whatever prize she wants in return. This is strange, because she otherwise has very low self esteem - and is certainly not arrogant in dealing with anybody other than me.

She is/was a Christian - and before we married, always went to church with me. But she gave up going to church long ago - both because of feeling guilty - and because of feeling that the people in the church were part of the conspiracy that forced her to marry me (in her view). While she was pregnant with our child (born 2 years into our marriage), she went to church, but after DD was 3 months, she reestablished contact with OM - and also stopped going to church. Her Dad is a pastor, so this is pretty extreme for her - and embarassing for her parents.

And about moral slide, inch by inch ...

I'm here posting when I should be working. That's a kind of moral slide too. It's a huge problem for me, and may be just as destructive to my family as an A - if I lose my job.

-AD