We are almost 4 months past D-day. Actually, I started Plan A-ing before D-day, before my WH came home from a trip in the midst of the A. I've been Plan A-ing in my own crazy way. Sometimes good results, sometimes bad results. It's hard since he decided not to live with us, he's a complete cake eater, conflict avoider and a stonewaller. He is so deep in the fog nothing is getting through. He is complete unrepentent about Slimeball, buried in lies and uncommunicative.

At this point, just being around him makes me a weird mix of sad, angry and frustrated. He is miles away from NC. He thinks he can be my friend but not talk about the issues or own up to his actions. I initiate almost all contact. I decided to stop contacting him unless it concerned the kids or money because it's just too painful.

I'm going on a trip next week. He will "take care of" the kids. We will be meeting this week to discuss the logistics of it. I have asked/warned him that there is to be no contact between Slimeball and my kids. He is not talk to her on the phone in front of them. There will be no "accidental" meetings at the mall, work or a restaurant or there will be Hell to pay...from me and from the kids. The kids could be quite unpleasant. If he can't agree to that that, then I'll make other arrangements for the kids.

I've thought about calling Slimeball and telling her to stay away from my kids during this or any time. I can always go to her house and tell her kids about what she's doing. I would not ever drag her kids into it unless forced.

When I get back, I'm going to evaluate the situation again. If things are more hopeful, I'll stay with Plan A a little longer. If I feel as defeated and hopeless, if the A is still going strong, I will be time to start protecting myself. Isn't that what Plan B is about?

How did your son's banquet go?
Did WH show up?

***I have asked/warned him that there is to be no contact between Slimeball and my kids. He is not talk to her on the phone in front of them. There will be no "accidental" meetings at the mall, work or a restaurant***

GG, you have absolutely NO way of enforcing this and your H knows it.

***or there will be Hell to pay...from me and from the kids.***

So what? I'll bet he thought there would be "Hell to pay" if he dated another woman while he was married, too.

***The kids could be quite unpleasant.***

Again -- it is NOT the kids' job to enforce No Contact between them and their father's girlfriend.

***If he can't agree to that that, then I'll make other arrangements for the kids.***

Oh, he'll agree to it, all right. Then, once you leave, he'll just go ahead and do whatever he wants and lie about it later. Isn't that what he does now with his OW? Why on earth do you think it's going be any different when you are far, far away?

I am only saying this because I could just guarantee this is going to turn out very badly. You are trusting your WH, a known cheater and liar, to keep his OW away from the kids. And you are placing the back-up responsibility for all this directly on said kids.

GG, you are going to come back and find out that your children have had a very rough time. They will not have one parent present to look out for their best interests. I think you are making a huge mistake here by leaving at this time and trusting a WH to do the right thing by the children, but that's JMHO.
Mulan

I agree with the previous poster.

My WH signed and agreed that he would not discuss his affair with our children, he would not bring OW around them, he wouldn't say her name, talk to her, etc. About 30 minutes after he said 'I would never do that' and signed a statement agreeing to that....guess where my children were? With OW...

Do you trust your WH? Has he given you REASON to trust his WORD?

Danielle

I took a boilerplate of this letter from "Love must be Tough" by Dr Dobson. I gave it to my wife Sunday when she begged me to let her out of the marriage. She told me Steve Harley was a jerk (she talked to him for one session) and she wanted out, so I gave her what she wanted.

Dr Dobson says it is manipulation and it is kind of like a game. Just like Plan B is your last attempt at Manipulation.

However, don't do it unless you mean it. WS may take you up on it.

I looked at it this way. If the marriage is dead then I had nothing to lose. I am staying in our home until Sept 1st. This gives me more time to work Plan A (demonstrate change, NO LB's and provide a safety harbor) and my 180 list. Now the stress is relieved between the two of us allowing us to coincide with Peace.

If my wife still decides to not save the marriage then the NAIL was in the coffin like Dr Dobson said. So what did I really have to lose.

I gave that letter to my wife on Sunday, walked out of our bedroom and I heard her crying (must have some feeling for me).

Yesterday she was treating me like a KING, go figure.

Like Dr Dobson says, this letter accomplishes 3 things.

#1. The trapped partner (WS) no longer feels it necessary to fight off the BS and it improves their relationship. The strain is gone.

#2. As the WS begins to feel FREE again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months of "how can I get out of this mess?" He now ask "do I really want to go?" Sometimes it turns the WS around 180 degrees.

#3. The 3rd change occurs in the mind of the BS. Incredibly he feels better (I did) somehow more in control of the situation. Now the BS starts to respect himself and will receive "small" bits of RESPECT in return from WS. Little by little the Healing process begins.


This releases the tension and the two of you may become friends again instead of enemys. It also places the stress of staying in the marriage back to WS.

Now the BS can feel relief and get on with his life making them the more attractive alternative.

I'm a FIRM believer that Dr H should incorporate this into his plan before Plan B.



My Dearest Dxxxx,

As you know, I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave this
marriage. My Love for you is so profound that I couldn’t face the possibility of life
without you. To a person like me who expected to marry only once and to remain
committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. I wish we
could have communicated better, I would have climbed mountains to win back your love.
Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul searching, and I now realize that I have been
attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done.

As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me
of your own free will. I did not blackmail you, twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was
a decision you made without pressure from me. I can still remember that night at
Pxxxxxx’s when I proposed to you. Now you say you want out of the marriage so
obviously I have to let you go. I can see that your Heart is somewhere else.

I’m aware that I can no longer force you stay today than I could have made you marry me
in 1985. You are free to go.

If you never speak to me again after I leave, then I will accept your decision. I admit that
the entire experience has been very painful, but I’m going to make it with God’s help.
God has been with me so far, and he will go with me in the future. You and I had some
great times together, and I will always remember them with great fondness. The last
twenty seven years with you have been the best time of my life. You were my first Love,
and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared, not only together, but with our two
beautiful children. I will always be grateful to you for bringing them into my life. You
have always been a fantastic mother, our children will one day appreciate all the hard work
you have invested in them. I will always speak fondly of you, and nothing but the highest
respect.

I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead. I’ve always
wanted you to be happy.

Love always,

Grape:

I understand you wanting to run away from all of this but I agree with Mulan and DaniGirl. I would be worried to death about my kids. They might not tell you but they will feel abandoned and scared. My H never brought the OW around my kids, though. It's because my boys, young men, probably would have tried to kill her. REALLY!! I was always around though to try to make sure this didn't happen. I repeatedly warned my H about this and he remained very sneaky. Do you think your son might get that enraged if it happened? Your daughter might think she can handle this but it might be traumatic for her to see her F with another woman.

Also, JMHO.

TA:

I incorporated the Dobson approach into MY PLAN except I said what you said in your letter out loud to my H before he left me. I also included this concept into my PLAN B letter. It was vital. It was a part that he really remembered and repeated back to me. I agree with you about the need to include it in the MB System.

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

wait a minute...

if we agree somewhat that past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior...it is my view that we do not have a WS touting the wonders of his OW in peoples faces....

what we appear to have is a conflict avoider extroidanairre...who can not even face his own actions to his wife....family....children...

this is NOT some WS saying look here I am with new honey and everyone better like and accept it...

ten days...
how many of them school days where the kids won't be exposed to anyone...

I think grapegirl is the one best to gage if how high the risk is of him exposing to them...

and the truth is that if he agrees to no exposure and or has no plans for exposure it might do this dad to live with the pain he is causing...

that this might be one way to wake him up not to reconciling to seeing the insidious damage that his actions of not calling and not being involved cause...

that he can't hide in his apartment
can't hide with the OW....

infact I might even argue that on some levels grapegirl not going is protecting her WS more than the children...

sounds to me like she has really really good communication with the kids...

and though they may be scared to face dad...that may be because grapegirl has worked hard to protect everyones feelings...to the point that there has been a lot of avoiding of reality going on.....

not a 2x4 grapegirl don't take me wrong here..
you have done a great job...


dad keeps saying he's a great dad...
perhaps it's time to shut up and put up....

I'm not sure that grapegirl going on a trip for ten days..is more detremental than the reality of dad actions day after day...and am not convinced that not going will really change anything...
while going very well might...and I do not feel that the children are so young that they will feel abandoned...
as she said..dad has watched them before when she has gone away...so we know he is capable...

ARK

Ark:

I get the impression that GRAPE is definitely going on the trip.

You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">might do this dad to live with the pain he is causing...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, I doubt Mr. Grape will be feeling pain while he is still FOGGY. He will be missing his high and will be trying to get up with the OW if he doesn't get a chance to see her while GRAPE is gone. Also, like other foggy WHs, I predict that he will be looking for justifications for remaining in the A using thoughts such as: these kids don't need me anyways; at least I'm here to stay with them when GRAPE goes away; I haven't really abandoned them even though I have moved out into an apartment, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that this might be one way to wake him up not to reconciling to seeing the insidious damage that his actions of not calling and not being involved cause...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also wouldn't want GRAPE to think that this might happen. Ark, you seem to have a lot more faith in WH's than I do. That's because mine was so addicted that I believe none of this would have worked. Rationalize his A, Rationalize his A, Rationalize his A ...is what he did until he was OUT OF THE FOG!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">infact I might even argue that on some levels grapegirl not going is protecting her WS more than the children... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't see this, Ark... The part about protecting him more. The children will probably be all right for 10 days. However, I don't see how not going will be protecting him. He will be fine either way. I think our concern is for the children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sounds to me like she has really really good communication with the kids...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen to this! I applaud GRAPE on her communication with her children.

One more comment:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and I do not feel that the children are so young that they will feel abandoned...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was 48 years old when my H left me and I felt abandoned.....

Again, I agree that the kids will probably be allright but going away right now is not the best decision, I think.

Oi, oi, oi!!! Drinking more tension tamer tea today. I wish I could just say I'm canceling this trip but I'm not. I have a plane ticket in hand and another person depending upon me to go. What I'm trying to figure out is the way to mitigate the damage.

Do I think my husband lies? Constantly. I also think he has that wonderous ability to compartmentalize everything. He puts Slimeball in a compartment and he puts us in a compartment. I think he wants to us to be very separate.

When I confronted him about the mall sighting, it was denial, denial, denial. I used the words suggested by someone on this forum yesterday and did it in person so I could watch his reaction. I was non-confrontative and matter-of-fact. It was not a "so what, I'll take her to the mall if I want to", in-your-face reaction. More like a hand in the cookie jar, busted reaction. He just closed up. His whole body language and attitude reminds me of a little boy who wants what he want...NOW!

I believe kids will and should have a say about the OP. Can they keep their dad from inflicting them with OW? No. Can I keep their dad from introducing them to OW? NO. Only WH and OW can make that not happen. That and a RO, I suppose. Contact could happen at anytime. It could be on a night or weekend visit. I don't have to be out of the country for this to happen. I just know that if she comes into my house, I'm going into her house.

Maybe the best course is to work towards preparing the kids for it. They are not babies. They are quite capable of looking after themselves and don't need constant supervision. One is actually a man. Also, these kids have good minds and strong opinions. They definitely have strong opinions about what their dad has done and OW. They can and will say, "This is not right!" Both say that they do not feel like I'm abandoning them. They are encouraging me to go. They've been left before and know I always come back. They have had their grandparents stay with them, their dad and a couple of times a paid baby/housesitter who stayed at our house when both parents have been gone. They've dealt with a uninvolved dad all of their lives. I do see the family tendency for conflict avoidance. I've been doing some role-playing with DD. I've been helping her find the words she needs. Her dad has seen her anger. DD says that she'll kick OW in the shins, run away and scream until she's taken home. Not a great plan but a plan she can do. I need to do the same work with DS. It's going to be harder with him. But these are lifeskills.

I have protected everybody in the family. What is good and what is bad protection? Making sure the dad unit makes it to certain events? Good or bad? Not telling the kids certain information? Good? Bad? We just do the best we can do.

I am making as many precautions and preparations as I can. The whole safety net is onboard. I'm doing all the things I've done on every trip I've taken: meals, schedules, before and after school care. This time, there are also friends ready to jump in with a phone call. Of the 10 days I'm gone, 6 are school days. On the weekends,the Saturdays are filled with activities and my inlaws are inviting them for a Sunday meal.

I don't call this escaping. I call it recharging myself. I have felt beseiged and beaten down. It's been a long, dark journey. I will come back a better, stronger person. Perhaps I'll be able to see beyond this mess. If WH does well during that time, connects with his kids and behaves himself, he could go a long way in redeeming himself. If he screws up, it could haunt him for a long, long time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just know that if she comes into my house, I'm going into her house.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wouldn't advise this but I like your thinking on this, SISTER GODDESS!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I love your post- you sound empowered- except for the following sentence.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If WH does well during that time, connects with his kids and behaves himself, he could go a long way in redeeming himself. If he screws up, it could haunt him for a long, long time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, as well as I, given your strong convictions in the post, that connections in 10 days are not likely. If he screws up, it will not necessarily haunt him. NOT YET. This sentence is making things too BLACK vs. WHITE. What will happen is probably somewhere in the middle.

OK, you've convinced me. I knew you would go anyways. I will be here to support you through this mess when you get back....

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

lol-I'm glad I've got your approval, Mimi! I knew I was going to go, too. I must say, that I have found nothing thing more liberating in life than stepping on an airplane, for pleasure, without ones children.

Please notice the use of the modifier COULD in my last paragraph of the last post.

I just got back from being with WH for awhile. MY car was gushing fluids and needed to be taken in. I called WH and he gave me rides from/to the garage. He even came in when I picked it up to check the diagnoses.

He is a strange, strange man. Pleasant and amiable as long as I stay away from anything resembling relationship talk or about OW. I suppose if I was smart enough to keep my trap shut, I could Plan A that. Refuses to say anything about mall sighting. We were going to stop for coffee but couldn't find a place open at 3 pm. We're going to meet later this week to figure out logistics of caring for the kids. He ended by saying to call him about what night I'm free. Like I say, he'll usually do anything if I call. Do you think he likes getting info about his children 2nd hand?

You know, I wonder if WH does this same thing to OW. I wonder if she has to setup all of their plans too? Maybe she has to tell him to met her at the mall if she wants to see him. It's an interesting thought. Although he did talk about how he watched the Academy Awards. At his place? I think not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by grapegirl:
<strong> I believe kids will and should have a say about the OP. Can they keep their dad from inflicting them with OW? No. Can I keep their dad from introducing them to OW? NO. Only WH and OW can make that not happen. That and a RO, I suppose. Contact could happen at anytime. It could be on a night or weekend visit. I don't have to be out of the country for this to happen. I just know that if she comes into my house, I'm going into her house.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I ended up deciding to do about WW and OM. I will let my kids guide me. They already know I don't approve of WW and OM's relationship and why so now its up to them to decide what type of relationship they have with WW and OM. I will support them in whatever they decide/feel. If WW continues to bring OM around the children and it continues to disturb them and she refuses to stop the behaviour I will seek legal means to make her stop. ie a RO.

I really wanted to just say to WW, if you are going to be around OM then you won't see your kids but after cool down I now think that is the wrong approach.

Good luck GG and have a nice trip. I think you are doing great.

Miker