I'm not sure how I need to word all of this...

OAK has expressed the need for me to bring up the topic of my infidelity on my own more often... to come to him and say "I did X thing or said Y to this person, this is how I felt then, and this is what I have learned from this experience...." and so on.

I understand the mechanics of this well enough, but here is my problem...

I really don't think about the what's and when's and why's of what I did without prompting from him. I don't sit and just... think about all that. I am instead focused on being a good mom and a good partner... the person that I want to be, not the person I was when my A's were going on. My way of dealing with this is (I'm sure this is common) to keep the past in the past, so to speak, and while I haven't forgotten what I did or how it has affected my life and my relationship with OAK and our child, I don't let it affect my day to day thoughts or emotions. Should I? Should I be dwelling on what I did, instead of what I am doing now?

Should I put daily thought into the negative things I used to do? If I should, how do I go about that? I have had very little luck in letting things go and healing without at least a little compartmentalization, you know?

I don't let the fact that I did those horrible things affect what I am trying to do now. Yes, the A's and their discovery caused me to change my outlook, many of my opinions, and a great deal of my thought processes, but I don't let the facts of what I did stand there and mock me as I become something much better than I was a year ago.

So, with that approach, I am not showing the "proper" remorse to him, I suppose, but I feel that living my life well, and with the intention of being good and forthright and honest is showing remorse in its own right, because I certainly was none of those things for a good little while there.

If I sit and think about what I did, instead of what I'm doing now, I tend to get weepy, depressed, and negative about myself, OAK, and our relationship. I don't want that to happen! How can I fill this emotional need for him without this happening to me? Depression was at least a factor of what I was doing in the first place, and has been an undercurrent in my life for a long time now... I'm finally rid of it, and now I feel like he wants me to revisit that dark place in my head... I know that is not his intent or his goal, but it still hurts to know I have to go back to that mental place.... I have a hard time seeing how it is beneficial to our relationship for me to put daily conscious thought into things that just depress the both of us....

Any opinions on what I should do? I know that ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and ignoring my past doesn't make it so it never happened. I know it happened. I know it was my fault, and I know that I can't change what I did. I just don't let the past interfere with what I am thinking and doing now. OAK thinks I am not being open with him... I think that he assumes I DO think about it and just don't tell him. (He said, so you never hear a song on the radio that reminds you of X or get triggered while you're doing dishes or something?... the truth is, not really... not unless he mentions it to me beforehand...)

How are we going to get past this? I'm not trying to ignore his emotional needs, I just don't know how to meet this one as well as he needs. I am open about what I do and think... I let him know when I am happy or angry or sad or jealous... I tell him what I do throughout the day... I feel I am being very open, and he does not agree with me because my discussions are never about that horrible troll that used to live in my head....

/sigh

Falling Up

Falling and OAK, I believe it is best not to offer up additional information unless it is relevant to your recovery (ie you have additional info he has requested before but you withheld or lied about)otherwise I think it is best to wait until the BS has a specific question and then answer it honestly. I am so sorry Falling that you feel you are failing OAK in this way. Please encourage him to think through why he needs this. Hugs to you both {{Falling/OAK}}

Hmmmm...as a BS I really don't understand the reason behind him wanting YOU to bring it up.

I would think that he wouldn't want you to think about it at all.

I mean...it's kinda like a double edged sword for you......you bring it up....and then he wonders why you were thinking about it in the first place. I mean...in order for you to do what he requests you would actually have to start thinking about it again right?

my take on it----he wants you to be open and honest with him even at your own peril. he wants an offering of honesty without you having your back against the wall so to speak. he wants you to be willing......its the willingness to do this that seems to be important for him.

i know its not easy but its something the bs can cling to----she did this just for me even though it hurt her to do, kinda thing.

Thanks for trying to help us out.

My primary EN is for openness and honesty. FU has been to the best of my knowledge honest with me for going on 5 months(with the occasional very minor exception). Openness...well, I do not see that. This has been a big stumbling block for me.

Some background:I had to spy and pry to find out anything about what had gone on during her A's. Even after D-Day, she never, without exception for the first 6 months, answered any questions about what had gone on honestly. I would sometimes get several different versions of what had happened on a particular "interaction" between her and the OM(s). None of these versions ever agreed with the FACTS that I had obtained by digging in chat records, phone bills, video and audio caches, and other sources. Never is not a word I use lightly. It is the literal truth.

So, even now 8 months past D-Day, I feel that she hides her real thoughts and feelings from me frequently. Again, when I ask a direct question, it is not uncommon for her to change her answer several times in very short order.

I feel very threatened by this. It makes it very difficult for me to feel as if there is any real mental or emotional intimacy in our relationship.

And I don't know how to change it. I have asked her to, sometimes, be the one that initiates discussion about our relationship. And about her affairs. Not because I have any illusion of getting more "facts" than I already have, but to show me that she feels safe to share the bad things with me as well as the good. I still have no idea what lead to the A's. According to FU, I was meeting all of her EN's exceptionally well, and she wanted for nothing physically, mentally, socially, or emotionally. The only answers I have ever gotten is "I don't know why I did those things. They didn't feel real, except when I was in the moment. I didn't think they were hurtful. I didn't see them as wrong for me to do. When I wasn't actully interacting with the OM, I was happy with our relationship."

These things may be true. I do not know. If they are, what assurance can she offer that there won't be other times and other men?

I think one way I could be comforted somewhat is if she were to bring uncomfortable things to me for us to discuss. Because she wants to talk to me. Because she thinks that the things that she did are my business, and not somehow private between her and the OM(s). Maybe it would help show me that she really is committed to being open with me, even in very difficult matters.

Maybe not, but it has been the only thing I have thought of to try. And thus far, FU has not been able to offer any other help to me in this.

Don't misunderstand me...our day to day life is great! I love her and believe she loves me. She is becoming a good mother and is developing many character traits that I find very appealing. She goes out of her way to see that my physical needs, wants, and even casual thoughts are met with great vigor and thoroughness. She is gorgeous, gifted, brilliant...she is a magnificent person. I have very few complaints.

Except...the very real fear that this is as much an act now as it ever was then. I hope and pray it is not.

But I am still terrified.

-OAK

FU,

It has been my observation that the marriages that recover the fastest and best are those where the WS brings up the A's and discusses them. However, here is what is often missed. It could be what OAK wants is to ask him "how he is doing?" Enquire about any questions he has or that have popped up, or triggers that he is feeling.

This is more about giving the BS a channel to discuss this without them having to "bring it up" themselves. You might not realize this but the topic of A's is not high on the WS OR the BS list of conversation topics <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , so perhaps what he is asking is more of a conduit for him to talk without feeling that he is "forcing" you to listen to him or him seeming "weak". Do you see the subtlty of this?

Further, humor about things with regard tothe A seems to defuse a lot. If you can laugh at things that happened and assure him that you are focused on the future with him, that helps.

So there is talking about the A's and there is talking about effect of the A's. I am guessing he is thinking along the latter lines myself.

Why don't you ask him and reach an agreement. I realize that you would prefer that this dropped away into the mists of time, I am betting OAK would as well, but he needs reassurance from you, hence his statement and request.

Also I might add that my observation here is that as the WS brings this up by way of questions and such, the couple sort of become partners in dealing with the fallout of the A's and in addressing the future. It is not that they weren't before, but that the BS feels validated by the WS's concern and willing to bring the subject up that has led to whatever is bothering the BS.

So does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

See, this is something that I am very confused about...

It doesn't make sense to me to bring up negative things from the past... especially things that I would have to actually put conscious effort into reminding myself to think about.

I do ask OAK how he is feeling. I saw this as trying to start conversations, even if the result was something that was uncomfortable to discuss...

Maybe I was wrong in that. Or maybe I was not making it clear that I wanted to talk about our relationship, if that was what was on his mind.

In order for me to bring things up about my A's, I would have to consciously remind myself to think about it, because I just DON'T on my own. It's not part of my daily mental topic list.... and it's not a part of my head that I like to visit.

Can someone explain this a little better to me? It just seems counterproductive to me, and I want to know how to meet this need without driving myself into a hole <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks for the replies.

Falling Up

[honest mode]
I don;t want honest spontaneous affair talk from Squid. I want her to say:

* OM was not half the man you are
* I really reget my affair
* I think of OM with nausea and hatred now as I realise he is the foul wastrel he really is.
* You did not deserve me to stray, and it was my choice to stray. You did not force me to or even cause me to.
* I really regret that choice in every possible way and absolutely ZERO good was exuded from it for me to carry with me.

I think the problem with BS is that the above may not be the mindset of their WS.
So I can;t speak for OAK, but fir ME I want to hear what I wnatto hear NOT have affair talk spontaneously.

Heres an admission. I actually squished an opportunity for A talk yesterday. I couldn't be arsed to put on my 'Bob the uber FBS' head.

I just couldn;t. Squid is starting to talk aout how OM provided what she needed at the time but sh*t on that, I don't need to hear that bollocks. I want to hear how she hates him and regrets her infidelity, not how he threw her a f'kin' lifebelt when she was drowning. Thats all BS.[/honest mode]
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hope this helps.

Just my 2 pence.

Falling Up,

I am FWS....and went through that period where RH wanted to know all sorts of things pertaining to the A....details that to me were not really relevant, but my telling him those details was important so that he would not fill in the blanks himself. His imagination was way worse than reality.

The main reason for talking about the A is so that you BOTH understand why it happened. As our MC put it, what was it that made you vulnerable to chooing to have an Affair? If you do not know the answer to that, then you can't take steps to prevent it from happening again.

With that said, there comes a point when hashing and re-hashing does more harm than good. But I think OAK will know when that time comes. He needs to try to make sense of it all, as much as possible, so that he can learn to feel secure again in your marriage.

I didn't like talking about it. It would really get me down, and I could see it hurt RH. But by KNOWING details, he had something tangible to DEAL WITH. At this point, I think Oak cannot deal with it because he doesn't know enough about it. Does this make sense? You have to know what you're dealing with before you deal with it, right?

RH didn't seem to expect me to bring things up....he just asked questions as they occurred to him, and he tried not to bombard me with too many at once. And he definitely made sure not to lovebust in the process. It was still uncomfortable and painful for me, but I decided that he would know when enough was enough...he's a big boy and I had to trust that he would only ask for as much information as he could handle. My responsibility to him was to answer with openness and honesty. The rest was up to him. Besides, how could I refuse, when he so desperately needed to know, after what I had done to him....I owed it to him.

The pain is temporary....but necessary.


(((FallingUp}}}}


NOW

Bob,

But when Squid talks about the "needs" OM was filling, she is giving you important information about what she wants from you! I know RH didn't like to hear the needs OM met for me, but if he didn't KNOW them then he couldn't take over providing them for me.
And sometimes, a WS doesn't realize what those needs are until he/she starts talking about the OM/OW. Once I started to realize THAT was the attraction,(needs being met) then I came to the conclusion that the OM himself was not the attraction....Do you see what I mean? Then and only then could I see him for what he really is.
Sewer scum.


NOW

Ok OAK and Bob, I see what you are asking for and perhaps Falling doesn't understand. This is what I have said to my H voluntarily. Once I offered up a thought about the A and my mindset back then. It hurt him to here it but he thanked me for opening up. I have in the past couple months been honestly able to say to my H that I own the A. It was not him but I that led to the A. I do tell him though that though wrong my perspective back then was I did not feel loved or cared for by him. I feel it is important not to downplay where I was at the time. Additionaly, I have been able to tell him I get nauseated at just the mention of OM's name. I tell my H he is a far better man (and that is after him having two a's of his own)than OM. I have told him honestly that the sex with OM did not mean anything and was quite disappointing, that is was really the desire for attention that drove me to the A. I have also assured him that I have never, ever been tempted again. I have built my own boundaries around myself and am painfully aware of how easily A's start so do not put myself in those situations. I used to think men and women could be "good friends" but I do not think so anymore. I keep my friendships with men very surface and save my true deep friendships for my women friends.

Does that help? Am I on the right track? Falling do you understand what they are saying?

FU, I'm the same way you are. I never think of the A. I feel I have done so much healing, that I can move on from it. However if Oak has not healed and moved on, than it is your job as his W to help him.

I'm confused by why he would just want you to come up with some things all on your own and blurt them out to him. I think it would be best if he just asked you direct questions.

Oak said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, when I ask a direct question, it is not uncommon for her to change her answer several times in very short order.

I feel very threatened by this. It makes it very difficult for me to feel as if there is any real mental or emotional intimacy in our relationship.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ask the question, then allow her time to answer it, give her an hour to think of the details, so she does not have to correct her answer. Make sure she feels safe when she does answer. I believe Kiwi and Rob sat down with a glass of wine and she gave him a bunch of details on the affair, he said, tell me everything, so I can move on, she did, and they have.

((((OAK & FU))))

KY

Bob said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don;t want honest spontaneous affair talk from Squid. I want her to say:

* OM was not half the man you are
* I really reget my affair
* I think of OM with nausea and hatred now as I realise he is the foul wastrel he really is.
* You did not deserve me to stray, and it was my choice to stray. You did not force me to or even cause me to.
* I really regret that choice in every possible way and absolutely ZERO good was exuded from it for me to carry with me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, I wonder if Squid is thinking it, but it is just to painful to say. I have said these things once, but often think them, when I did say them, ST was very happy, he says, I really needed to hear that.

I think this comes with owning the Affair, she needs to hold herself accountable for her actions, once she does, she can express herself.

I read where you have said, if I did this, I would apologize non-stop, it isn't that easy, when you are hiding behind all the justifications in your head, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> once you are beyond the justifying, and you are accountable, you can then apologize endlessly, like I am doing now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It is all such a painful process. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I didn't take the time to read all the responses (I'm at work)

But - could Oak really be looking/feeling/wanting you to share so that you two can build trust, have a deeper relationship/intimacy, does he want you to see that you can talk to HIM...that you don't need to go outside of your M to talk..Does he want you to learn to "share" your secrets/problems/happiness/sadness with HIM and HIM ALONE..

I as a BS don't want sexual details or any other type of details of my WH many A's or many MOW/OW -should we decide to recover our M - I want him to KNOW w/o a doubt that I am his best friend - he can share anything including his weakness's w/me..I don't want him getting his self-esteem boosted elsewhere. I don't want him seeking whatever his SN are elsewhere..

Maybe Oak is still feeling a bit vunerable, and maybe still alittle betrayed so he's trying to get his own reassurance bank filled back up..JMO

Reassurance that your in this for the long run - that you'll share everything and anything with him - Because HE'S your best friend and you don't need ANYONE else.....

HI FU and OAK,

this response might be redundant however it still gives you another data point.

FU, i am a FWW, i think i understand what OAK is asking for, he does not want you to merely remember the A details. He wants you to ponder the reasons it happens. saying you don't know does nothing for him (that is a saying my H says to me a lot, "that does nothing for me"). i don't like that saying but if that is the case then i have to accept it just the same.

FU, have you done any IC about any of this? Would you be open to doing it or do you think it is not necessary?

when i confessed that is one of the thing my H immediately insisted on, in order for him to be able to stay, me to get into IC to get to the bottom of my behavior (and that was BEFORE he knew about everything). For your own sake, you should not leave the why of the affair at "i don't know". my guess is OAK will not feel so scared if you work on figuring out the why AND then share it with him.

Hi FU,

I think that maybe what OAK is lookign for is a kind of recognition from you of the gravity of what you did and of his pain and what it means. Maybe he wants you to bring it up in a way to show that you have fully taken in the lessons of the A and understand what it meant for him. Maybe he is looking for reassurance that you have learnt something and really are different now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I read where you have said, if I did this, I would apologize non-stop, it isn't that easy, when you are hiding behind all the justifications in your head,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have apologised. I did it because of my remorse over the pain I caused him. But I was not sure that it was always the best thing to do. I was afraid that he didn't properly understand the aspects of our R that I was unhappy about, his actions that had hurt me, and that he would see no need to change anything. My logic went, if the A was completely due to my character flaws, he might think that I was as content in our R before as he was. I felt an apology might just give him more reason to dodge his own contribution over the years to the state of our R, something I felt he was already doing in his resentful (as I saw it) behaviour towards me.

I had to detach a bit from him and think about the reasons I was apologising. The reason had to be not because I wanted to be forgiven, but because I wanted to forgive myself, and this was something that was necessary for me to feel I was redeeeming myself in my own eyes.

This might be slightly off-topic for you, FU, but I hope there's something helpful in there.

Did your H's contributions to an unsatisfying M justify your affair then Smur ?

Could you only apologise for your affair in good grace once it had achieved its purpose of making your H behave in a way you approve of in your M ?

I re-wrote this several times, but they all say the same thing, sorry if my words hurt you. Thats not my intention.

Hi Bob,

I'm sorry if what I wrote triggered you! You didn't hurt me, just showed me that I needed to explain better.

No, of course his behaviour did not justify mine. Nothing could justify my behaviour.

I don't see my A as achieving any purpose at all. In fact it has caused me (and H) otherwise unimaginable pain.

If we can recover a good relationship, it will be entirely due to the hard work we have done post dday. In MC yesterday, even H said this was (so far) mostly my commitment to do the hard work.

The issue of the prior state of our R and my choice of have an A that hurt him badly weren't linked in the sense of justifying my behaviour, it was just background.

I guess what I meant was that over a certain period in our recovery, H was very angry and resentful (and still is sometimes), and that was also coming across to me in his actions to me. I had to be realistic about myself and our R. I had to detach from what felt sometimes like 'punishment' in some way, keep at least a shred of self respect and apologise for my A anyway, because I hurt him and he didn't deserve it. What I wrote about my confusion over whether an apology would mean that he didn't need to change comes in the context of his behaviour towards me at that time, post dday.

I really don't know if this is squid's issue at all, because your sitch sounds different to ours.

I hope this makes it clearer.

* I rewrote this to try and explain better

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

Hi FU,

Here is my take on this:

I hear you about living in the present,doing your best to be a great mom and partner.Who wants to go back in time and review the bad old A stuff.That OAK is asking you to face the past again,which you don't want to do.That you don't want to review what you DID but rather focus on what you are DOING.You say,"I am finally rid of it".

But,are you?

Have you adequately dealt with the past and the WHY the A's happened? You ask,"How can I fill this need for him without this happening to me?". You DO have to go back and revisit the pain if the WHY's were never figured out.I don't propose to know your whole story at this point but it's obvious OAK has this very question swimming around his brain:"WHY?" He sees this differently than you.You do not want revisit facts that may not have come out yet to explain how this could be prevented again and according to him,you have changed your statements before,wittingly or not,that have OAK unsure and insecure.A big piece of the puzzle is missing here.

So,in mind,I would like to know if the WHY was ever discovered in counseling."I don't know" is not an appropriate answer for neither one of you.That to me is why he doesn't feel you are open and honest enough and why he wants YOU to bring up this topic because,IMO,he is hoping that you will clue him in to that "puzzle piece" that is missing.He doesn't have an answer to that most important question we all need and want to know.I don't think he is asking you purposefully to go to the dark places in your mind to hurt you but he just wants an answer to how he can help prevent this from happening again and he cannot do his part if he doesn't know what rules/boundaries/measures/needs to put in place.

Sorry if this was too wordy and repetitive.Does this make any sense? On a very simplistic level,I think OAK just wants to know why you chose to do this to him? He still doesn't trust you because there appears to still be secrets out there haunting him.He doesn't have all the pertinent info.That is how I see it,based on these posts.

O

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

My response is this my Wh has only said it was nothing - well he had 2 OW over 2 yrs that I know of. How can we make it if I do not know what happened, what their appeal was, what he was attracted to, what they did together, waht they discussed so I can get the picture. How can we heal without knowing. I feel like I mean nothing to him -like I do not deserve an answer. I wish he would say boy was I stupid -they wre nothing. Instead he still defends Ow he worked with. I asked him if we D will you resume A with her. He just looked and said -she loves her H. I feel low like I am at the bottom of the ladder. You need to let him know he is the best. That the OM were scum and you must have been crazy to even look at them. Good luck you tow -you are adn have been doing great -get thru this please. You give me hope where I have so little right now.