StillTuff:


Thank you, I feel the same way. How can this man look at me after he went through the same thing some 24 yrs earlier with his wife who left him and married the OM...GRRRR

Mike:
Ditto. If this had happened to me with my FIL my FWW would just have to recognize the rift I would have with him as fallout from her own choices. Fortunately for me my in-laws were among the first to know (reluctantly on my part but just trying to cope with the shock wave) because I told them. I had tons of support from them. I know it's a walk through h3!! All blessings to you and Cindy.
Stilltuff
still recovering after 20 years; no plans to quit and no plans to have plans.

StillTuff:

How did you get through the past lies? How did you find it in you to do what had to be done?


Cindy walks around like she can do whatever she wants and that there are no repurcussions. It drives me crazy..Not to long ago she told me to be a man and take the kids and leave..


Tonight I was made to feel like a child.

Scenerio:

We were in the local food market and money is tight, but I picked up a readers Digest and asked if it was ok, I got this dirty look and was told sure...The cashier looked at me funny and then at my wife..

Now of course the money paying for these things was hers and so I put the Digest back...

I never felt so low in my life.

everyday is a new day in Hell, I feel like a passenger in my own car..

^

Mike:
Getting past two and a half years of lies is rough and everyone charts their own course through this to some degree. For me it took a lot of Plan A (without realizing there was such a thing) and the patience that entails. Then, eventually, I was able to get her to see I needed to have some questions answered. In other words, two-way communication. With the passage of time I just realized the lies were part of a very big package of crap I needed to forgive. The forgiveness wasn't for her, it was for me. I doubt if you are that far down the street yet, but I think you will get there. It will take a lot of time; probably several years; maybe less with Cindy's love and support. YOU will NEED to forgive her for your OWN well-being no matter what becomes of Cindy or your M. She can't undo the lies or any of it. That's why forgiveness is needed. It doesn't solve all of the problems by any means, but I personally believe forgiveness is the beginning of healing, not it's result. Reference also the Policy of Radical Honesty found here at MB. Cindy needs to sign up for it

StillTuff:


Well Cindy has a problem with Radical Honesty. Past and Present it seems. Tonight she informed she she thinks these forums are a waste of time. So I don't know if thats her anger or just she really does not care.


I think protecting her lies is more important then stepping up to the plate and fixing all of this. She rather walk out on her kids again then deal with the reality of her lies.

As you can tell I am having a very rough day with Cindy and I just can't get it through to her, so why bother.


How do I have a thread killed? Why post here is she is not going to use it.


Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Hi Michael,

I'm sorry that Cindy feels this way...now.I thought she was encouraged to be here although tentative.An attitude like that is not going to help foster security and trust.I also will try not to take what she said personally but I do not think being here is a waste of time at all.We do a great service helping other's,if only just to listen.

Anyway,you will be back at your old job soon won't you? Then you can have some of your own money back.One thing my WH was good at was not making me feel bad about how I managed our money.He totally let me run everything and I appreciated that he trusted me even as a SAHM.He never made me feel like it was HIS money,so,I am sorry you felt badly about the magazine.When the tables are turned,one should be gracious.

I guess you should consider this day another tough one but keep at it and watch her actions.

Cindy,I hope you will post here.I think you need it.JMHO.

O

Mike:
I understand completely. Use the forum to work on you. You're the only one you can change. My FWW has never used this forum and has been somewhat withdrawn (read Bob Pure's recent threads about his struggles with Squid) and reluctant to face the music in overt ways. I think it's a combination of her personality and the quiet realization of what she's done. I can't change either of those. Cindy may never come here again, but this site can still benefit you. If you will recover a M you will have to love her and forgive her. That's your job anyway as her husband. With adultery it's a lot tougher I understand all too well. But I am bigger and tougher than any of this, and so are you. There really is something to "killing them with kindness." Loving her and forgiving her both do YOU a favor. Hard to see when you're in agony. Easy to see when you're not. True either way.
Courage and perseverance to you, my friend.

I'm just tired of hearing how were all whine babies and there is nothing any of you can do to help us.


The problem I think is none of you are telling her what she did is ok and that she should run back to OM like all of her co-workers and family and friends were doing...


It's getting close to me just giving up...


I'm seriously thinking about contacing CPS to have her removed from the home...


The only thing Cindy cares about is OM and how much he fullfilled her needs and how she can fullfill his sexual needs..

Forget about my SF needs, forget about my emotional needs, Forget about my dignity, Forget about the hurt she is causing me and the children.


The only thing that matters is Cindy and how easy it for her to hold back the truth from me and our success at rebuilding this Marriage.

She has told me on one then more occassion to take the kids and leave and be happy, just because she does not want to tell the truth.

Michael,

You need to regroup here,it sounds like you are sinking again.

Has Cindy been telling you to leave and take the kids like in the last couple of weeks or what? Do you believe there to be NC still?

O

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Does anybody care how I am feeling with everything going on? I love the way Michael portrays himself like a saint. Bear with me, I may ramble bacause I'm pissed off.

I have not said that the people here are whine babies. I have told Michael, " Are these people going to save my M? I would like to go to a MC."

I did read some posts yesterday morning, but did not post myself. Michael makes me feel like it's a demand for me to come on here and post. I should post when I feel the need to. Besides, I have already seen that it can take up a lot of time. I am currently working and Michael has not been. I have been doing laundry, cooking, etc. I am trying to keep up with my duties as a mother and a wife. No matter what I do, it's not enough and not good enough.

This is my version about the grocery store incident and the magazine. First of all, I don't make a lot of money. I could see that with the things we were buying it was more than I intended on paying. I still had to pay the car insurance and fill the gas tank. Mike is also a smoker and he would need money for those as well. $5 a day adds up. I did have a look on my face when Mike put the magazine on the register, but I didn't say that he couldn't get it. I didn't realize that he put the magazine back until we were on our way home and he told me that it bothered him about the way I made him feel.

So since he was upset about the magazine incident, it opened up Pandora's Box for everthing else. Then he has to start throwing the A and the OM in my face. I thought we were having an okay day up until the store.


Octobergirl [QUOTE]
Anyway,you will be back at your old job soon won't you? Then you can have some of your own money back.One thing my WH was good at was not making me feel bad about how I managed our money.He totally let me run everything and I appreciated that he trusted me even as a SAHM.He never made me feel like it was HIS money,so,I am sorry you felt badly about the magazine.When the tables are turned,one should be gracious. [QUOTE]


The money I make is our money. I have been buying his cigarrettes. But do you know what he tells me? He'll tell me to find a way to work, because I can't use HIS car. Who do you think has been paying for the insurance and gas since he hasn't been working? Tell me how that is fair.


Here's another issue-SF. I don't think that it's a lack of SF. Michael does not go without, at least in my opinion. Maybe he'll have a different outlook. Anyway, one of the problems is that I didn't initiate. I do initiate now. He tells me that he can't tell if I've been satisfied or whatever. Lets' see- 99% of the time he makes me orgasm, I tell him if something feels good, I make noises. I mean I don't know what he wants from me. I certainly can't scream at the top of my lungs because the boys' room is next door to ours and our daughter's room is across the hall. Our upstairs isn't very big or soundproof. He always brings up the OM and that the OM fulfilled me better sexually. If that was the case, then the OM would have made me orgasm, but he never did.


Sorry, I just had to do some venting myself.

^

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Mschluter ]</small>

Cindy,

I am very glad you have come to post.I have been asking you to so we can hear how you are and your side of the story.Listen,we DO care how you are feeling and even though you are busy at work and with household duties,it would be good to check in here and there for Michaels' sake,even your own.There is the difference.This has been his place for trying to come to grips with all that has happened.He feels comfortable being here in lieu of not having MC established yet.I don't think it's a demand Cindy as much as it would show him you care about THIS aspect,recovery.It's great to be doing laundry and cooking etc but right now that takes a back seat to actually working on the issues from the A.That HAS to be first,not the other way around IMO.We are not responsible for saving your marriage,you and Michael are, but we are just trying to help based on our experiences.

I can understand your anger,you both have deep emotions that you need to deal with.But the fact is and you know this,Michael took a big chance here taking you back,which YOU wanted too and although neither one of you is going to be "right" all the time,you do have to work together to save this marriage.Many times I hear plenty of resentment and anger going around but does that solve anything? You are both hurting no doubt.I see you trying.But you are both going to keep taking steps back if you don't stick with communication between one another in a calm and safe manner.Trust has to be rebuilt.

Both of you should always try to be patient and kind and also whoever makes the money in the family,it should be YOURS together right? like you mentioned.

Do you really think Michael is throwing the A and OM in your face? Do you understand that you still need to talk about it at this point? The average recovery time is 2 years.You both are not even anywhere close and you are having a difficult time with communicating and emotion.That is why I/we thought by talking to former WW's here you could get insight into how they are going through this too.Can you schedule some regular time to be here? Even if it's only a half hour to vent and talk with other's? I think that would be really helpful to you and Michael,at least until you can get into Professional counseling.

O

Edited to add: The SF need is something that will take time to feel fully comfortable again Cindy.I hear that you are trying but for Michael,I think he is still processing everything,he still has major doubts and is maybe still comparing himself to the OM in many ways.This can cause insecurity and so he is trying to read you.If he cannot "tell" that you are satisfied(O) then do just try and reassure him.Be open and talk to him about your needs(and vice versa).And I understand about the children issue.I used to worry about that too.

**How is the NC going?

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Just wanted to vent..but forget it.

I guess in a way I have been making it more of a Demand, I was just trying to keep Cindy motivated and yes when she does post I take it as a sign of hope.


Last night we had one He!! of a fight. I don't know why but I dropped the bomb and lost control of all thoughts and process. I said everything I felt and thought. I don't know where all of this anger came from but it was a side of me I have not seen since my day's in the military.

I will admit the fight was all my fault, I started it.


It just kills me how I stand outside my Garden, the one God created for me and Cindy.

I'm still in a somewhat of a bad mood and trying to shake it.

Mike & Cindy,
What’s going with you two is the kind of negative squabbling that does horrible damage to a relationship. This kind of nonsense is so damaging because it serves no purpose. All this bickering is, are expressions of hurt feelings manifesting themselves in anger with no focus. It’s just venting. Mean hurtful venting. This is not about magazines or cigarettes or anything else. This is about two hurt and angry people that are super sensitive to anything that is even an implied as a slight.

Mike, if you really want to recover this marriage then you can’t be throwing the affair in Cindy’s face all the time. If you want her to tell you the facts, never mind the truth, then you have to show her that you’re mature enough for her to share her shortcomings with. And proving this to her begins with you showing some self control, patience and respect for her feelings. Mike you’ve accepted her back into your life with the intent to make up with her and go on together as man and wife. That means you don’t get to call her names or be cruel and vindictive about what she did. Yes, you can express your pain and let her know how what she has done has hurt you but you can’t be standing over her calling names and berating her as soon as she displeases you in any way. You can’t do it because it’s not fair, it’s not kind and it’s sure as hell not loving.

And Cindy, when Mike asks you to do something that is relationship related you have to be mature enough to not always be questioning or arguing why he wants or needs that from you. Everything he may want or need doesn’t have to make sense to you. It’s not about what you think is useful, it’s about what he needs. It’s about you wanting to give him what he needs to forgive what you’ve done so he can find ways to help you forgive yourself. Cindy, you just have to stop thinking in concepts of what’s fair. None of what’s happened is fair to Mike and more important; it sure as hell isn’t fair to your children.

A last thought. This board isn’t for everyone. It is a place however, where lots of folks gather who are very familiar with the kind of problem you and Mike are dealing with and the folks that hang out here share and provide support in a more then selfless effort. So maybe you won’t like what you hear from some of us or maybe you think that this board is a poor excuse for MCing but so what? It is a pace you can come and take what’s useful and leave the rest behind. And it is a place where people are willing to share their suffering, baring the very souls in pain. And you know what Cindy, spending a little time hearing about that pain just might help you understand a little bit about what the man you say you love is feeling. It may even be a place where you can get some ideas about how others who have done some of the things you’ve done, have come to terms with themselves.

Look, children (and I use this term with affection, being positive that I am old enough to have the right to do so). You two are not going to get anywhere unless you both decide to not just talk about loving each other but begin to act lovingly to each other. So here’s an idea. Next time a nasty or hasty word comes to mind, before it reaches your lips and gets said, just walk away. Walk away and remember that you’re about to say something to the one you love and the one that’s either the father or mother of your children! Then think about how it would make you feel if you were to hear someone else speak this way of either of you or how it would make your children feel to hear either their mom or dad being disparaged this way. Just think!
Coach

Coach:


Your Right, I have been acting like a little child out of control. I was trying to bring Cindy to the level of Pain I have been feeling and it just is not fair.


I love my wife and I want to save this Marriage. Walking away is the hardest part when we get into these childish fights...


It's like she knows just what buttons to push to keep me at it..


Thank you Coach,

Your words are wise and True to bad I'm young and Foolish.

Michael, Coach is right on the mark.

There are so many people here at MB who wish for an opportunity like the one Michael and Cindy have, and it's incredibly frustrating, maddening, to see them waste energy on this kind of squabbling.

And Michael, you were supposed to quit smoking! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

GC

Update:


Cindy has decided on her own to give her notice to her employer, Next week will be her last day with her Job. I can't help but feel guilty.


I also have told Cindy that I can know longer reside this close to Om and that even with all her efforts NC can be broken at will because of how we live to OM.. It's pretty scary knowing he is within 3 miles of us.

So ... The plan is to hold out here until the children finish school, if we could make the move sooner we would..


Oh yea... Were looking at the Tampa, Florida area. I have a cousin and an uncle that live there plus a very good buddy of mine.


GreyCloud:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are so many people here at MB who wish for an opportunity like the one Michael and Cindy have, and it's incredibly frustrating, maddening, to see them waste energy on this kind of squabbling.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, I Know

But it's hard when so much is at stake and your trust bank is not only empty but pushing fumes. The small fight turned into a huge fight because it was what I needed to get some things off my chest, and I did.



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And Michael, you were supposed to quit smoking! [Wink]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I really am trying, well a little....

Michael, when I decided to quit, I googled around a bit to try and get motivated. Because I was not motivated.

On one of the more high-profile sites, I found the story of a 33-year-old man who developed lung cancer and dropped dead in just a couple of months. He went from a seemingly fit and healthy guy who smoked to being a walking skeleton to being dead in a matter of weeks, and left a family behind.

IIRC, it takes about 15 years for an ex-smoker's lung cancer risk to reach the level of a non-smoker's. Better get started!

GC