DD 2/26/05 OK guys. Here's the dilemna.
Married 10 years.
Two sons 18 (hers, I adopted) and 8 (ours0
She had always been single.
Claims I meet 98% of her criteria for a husband, but she NEVER had that feeling.
She fooled me. I married her. Marriage has been off and on good, but with periods of bad. She gets pretty abusive verbally to me and sometimes older son. Hit me a couple of times, but nothing serious, just annoying.

I kind of rolled with the abuse, since when I protested, she really exploded.

Says she never got over her last boyfriend who really gave her that "feeling".

She lives overseas with our 8 year old. We have a 19 year old male nanny (friend of family) watching our young son while I commute between the states and Europe.

Caught her kissing the nanny last week. Sent nanny home. Confronted wife. She flew out of house in rage to catch nanny. Turmoil ensued at home. I told her she couldn't take our son back overseas right now based on behavior overseas with nanny. Police became involved. She doesn't trust me anymore and believes I planned on police intervention all along.

Marathon counseling session with pastoral counselor (3 hours) Mostly venting session. No guidance given. Talked almost constantly until I dropped her at the airport. Ended with her crying on my chest. WS flew back to Europe without son. Was very subdued and meek the first two days. Today she is more defiant, and doesn't know why I want to try and get back together. For our son and maybe us, I said.

She doesn't want more counseling, she wants us to do it together as long as I bring my son back overseas for the rest of the school year. I can come back every week and work on our issues, but she states, "I will never love you like you want" She has agreed to check out the website with me there and our son.

She says we can maintain the appearance of marriage for son's sake, even sleep in same bed. But nothing is going to change.

I tentatively agreed to return next week depending on how things work out over the next few days. She says if I don't bring him back now, there's no point in ever seeing him again.

She feels humiliated by the whole exposure, and told our oldest son she never wants to come back to the U.S. now.

I'm wavering a little. She's never hurt our 8 year old, but became verbally abusive to the 18 year old as he got older. The 8 year old misses having his back scratched.

I don't want to fall into enabling mode again, but I don't see a real big reason why the 8 year old shouldn't go back until June as we originally agreed. The OM is gone and doesn't appear to be coming back. She says the OM wasn't the problem he was a symptom.

Looking for input.

Question:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessNSeattle:
<strong> DD 2/26/05 OK guys. Here's the dilemna.
Married 10 years.
Two sons 18 (hers, I adopted) and 8 (ours0
She had always been single.
Claims I meet 98% of her criteria for a husband, but she NEVER had that feeling.
She fooled me. I married her. Marriage has been off and on good, but with periods of bad. She gets pretty abusive verbally to me and sometimes older son. Hit me a couple of times, but nothing serious, just annoying.

I kind of rolled with the abuse, since when I protested, she really exploded.

Not good, by doing this you are allowing and possibly even helping her feed her monster.

Says she never got over her last boyfriend who really gave her that "feeling".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

She lives overseas with our 8 year old. We have a 19 year old male nanny (friend of family) watching our young son while I commute between the states and Europe.

Caught her kissing the nanny last week. Sent nanny home. Confronted wife. She flew out of house in rage to catch nanny. Turmoil ensued at home. I told her she couldn't take our son back overseas right now based on behavior overseas with nanny. Police became involved. She doesn't trust me anymore and believes I planned on police intervention all along.

SHE doesn't trust YOU anymore? That would be funny if it weren't so tragically skewed. You did the right thing.

Marathon counseling session with pastoral counselor (3 hours) Mostly venting session. No guidance given. Talked almost constantly until I dropped her at the airport. Ended with her crying on my chest. WS flew back to Europe without son. Was very subdued and meek the first two days. Today she is more defiant, and doesn't know why I want to try and get back together. For our son and maybe us, I said.

Sounds fairly typical.

She doesn't want more counseling, she wants us to do it together as long as I bring my son back overseas for the rest of the school year. I can come back every week and work on our issues, but she states, "I will never love you like you want" She has agreed to check out the website with me there and our son.

She says we can maintain the appearance of marriage for son's sake, even sleep in same bed. But nothing is going to change.

I tentatively agreed to return next week depending on how things work out over the next few days. She says if I don't bring him back now, there's no point in ever seeing him again.

She is not in a position to negotiate. Either she meets your criteria or she walks..without son. Why are you falling into this obvious trap?

She feels humiliated by the whole exposure, and told our oldest son she never wants to come back to the U.S. now.

So..she is humiliated by the exposure..but not by the act. How very WS. This next part is my favorite..yes, here we all sit..the whole of the US citizenry..waiting to see what she will do next.

I'm wavering a little. She's never hurt our 8 year old, but became verbally abusive to the 18 year old as he got older. The 8 year old misses having his back scratched.

If you send your child to be with a known abuser you are culpable for anything that even MIGHT occur. Don't do it.

I don't want to fall into enabling mode again,

Sounds like you are about 3/4 of the way there already

but I don't see a real big reason why the 8 year old shouldn't go back until June as we originally agreed.

Here are a few reasons off the top of my head..1 she is a known abuser..you have yourself witnessed it..and this is when she is "stable" right now she is a loose cannon...2 WS are notorious oath breakers. Allowing your child to live in another country with WS is just begging for trouble. Don't do it.

The OM is gone and doesn't appear to be coming back. She says the OM wasn't the problem he was a symptom.

I'd say that it isn't a question that has a mutually exclusive answer. He is both.

Looking for input.

Viola

Noodle

Question: </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Ouch! Sorry you are in this mess!

Here is my input, fr someone who is still at least ankle deep in muck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Do not allow your WW to dictate the course of action here.

Do not allow her to manipulate you into putting your son at risk.

Your first obligation is to that boy... she is not considering anyone but herself right now... someone needs to consider him and that is you.

That "feeling" is a bunch of crap and fairly typical WS-ese. I heard "I am not even sure if I ever loved you" after 12+ decent years (or so I thought) when my WH had his first A...<sigh> It is now clear that he would not have known "love" if it walked up and bit him on the butt... it's called fog!!

If you are going to even consider sending him overseas, you need to consult a good lawyer.. she could get him over there and you may never get him back! Have you considered that possibility? You are not dealing w/ a normal and sane person when there is fog all around...

MC and IC should be a deal-breaker... there is obviously issues here if she feels the need to go beyond the M for affection and fulfillment... she should know why! If she won't go, you go and take sons, both of them, sounds like 18 yo could use a good talk w/ a professional too!

Don't enable. Read around here, find the resolve to be the beacon to WW but not a doormat in so much that you allow her to emotionally manipulate the situation... stand your ground in defense of your son, you will never regret protecting him.

Good luck and God Bless!

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
============================
Looking for input.
============================

Okay, here ya go.

She is in a position to demand nothing.

You are in a position to grant nothing.

Where is the dilemma?

You are in a position to abrogate her demands. That is a position of strength.

I think you should immediately file for sole legal custody of your young son. Then I think you should stay out of Europe with him.

Please consider that if you return your son to Europe and your wayward wife, you may never see him again.

If you haven't read all the Marriage Builder principles outlined on this site, please do so.

All the best,
Gimble

Hey guys! I realize I have a problem. I didn't promise anything. I'm in the drivers seat and I'm asking for outside opinion before I make committments. She already hates that, which I realize is her way of trying to control the situation. What's with the "Looks like your 3/4 of the way back into enabling mode"??

I just wanted confirmation that I needed to continue with the tough part. I'm not sure when I need to lean back into the love/trust part. Our son is the most important person to me right now. Oldest son is the next most important person. I'm trying to figure the best way to get them a healthy mom, with or without me as her husband.

No I have not read all of the site yet. I've been kind of busy with everything else. I'll get on it. Surviving the affair just showed up in the mail yesterday, so I have some reading to do.

Is there anything specific on Verbal abuse and enabling behavior besides the Love Busters section that I could read first. I want to establish the limits in my head before I move on.

Thank you everyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have you consindered IC, and asked her to seek out an IC? Sounds like she has some abusive behavior to work on before M and love will ignite.

That 'feeling', puhleeze, those endorphins don't fly around every day with you, and a WS thinks they are doomed to agony...they get a rush from a new body next to theirs and thinks this is the way it's GOTTA BE!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


She is seeing the nanny still, I'm sure, why should she stop, why should HE stop?

You have said the abuse is not that bad, but I'll bet it's worse than you think, that you have gotten used to it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She says if I don't bring him back now,there's no point in ever seeing him again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Ummm.Is your WW talking about your young son? Yikes.

SNS,

Stating that you will not allow your WW to take son overseas based on her behavior and then backtracking and saying you don't really see a problem with YS going back until June like you planned tells you that you might want to look at what your boundaries/limits are with her.If the nanny went back home to the area where your WW lived,isn't it very possible they might hook up again? Do you want your YS exposed to that? What is more important: his safety or remaing in the same school and with a cheating spouse who,I would venture to bet,is going ot try and contact the nanny again,apologize,plead,etc.

Trying to get the kids a healthy mom isn't your responsibility right now.Their protection is.

There is a lot more to this than we can help with.In order for you and your WW to have a chance,the basic necessity is that you at least live on the same continent.How long is your WW at her current job?

O

WW spouse is off continent for 3 more years. OM went to his home in the US, and has refused to go back to Europe. That is not a current issue. Bigger problem is the verbal abuse. I'm sure its worse than I think, but it's primarily verbal. Hit five or six times in 10 years. They were memorable. No physical damage, but emotionally painful. I responded in each case that she was out of line and to cut it out. Emotional trauma is different.

I just need to call her back and tell her we're not coming back over again until..... Where's the limit? She can fly back and forth regularly, it's just a long way.

I'm currently avoiding her phone calls until I can develop a good answer and get more than five minutes at work to spend talking to her.

My stress meter is really up there. Lots of deep breaths. - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok.So the boy toy lives in the states.That could be a good thing as long as it is FAR away from where you live.I guess we will presume he isn't going back to Europe but you never know.I would still keep the radar up for any signs of contact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wife is off continent for 3 more years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not good.This will not help your marriage SNS.I can personally vouch for that.My WH lived in Canada while at his new job and it didn't help us work on a thing.It kept us separate.

Verbal abuse is a problem but only part of the big picture here.Infidelity is usually only one of several that we have to deal with(i.e. porn,alcohol,abuse,neglect,OC,NPD,etc).But both the cheating and abuse are your WW's responsibilities to handle and deal with correctly.She isn't near doing this though IMO.Abuse is abuse,emotional,physical,mental.The phrase,"Sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me" just doesn't apply anymore.I know.

YS.What is your plan here with regards to your son? Can he go to school here in the States until Summertime so you can keep an eye on him? You may not have to keep him out of the European one if the nanny kid is not going to be anywhere around there,hopefully.Does your YS know what is going on? Can't remember.

O

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

I signed my son up for school on Monday and afterschool care on Wednesday. He's got all his old friends around him, but I told him he would be heading back to Europe once mom and I straightened things out, probably at the end of March. At the time I was only thinking about the infidelity. YS misses his mom's backrubs and had a headache last night for no apparent reason. He know about WS and OM in general since the first counselor directed me to tell him. It was a good idea.

I have a phonecall into another counselor today for an appointment. I think I'm just going to have to tell her we're not coming back until she makes an effort to change her behavior.

Life is tough.

I signed my son up for school on Monday and afterschool care on Wednesday. He's got all his old friends around him, but I told him he would be heading back to Europe once mom and I straightened things out, probably at the end of March. At the time I was only thinking about the infidelity. YS misses his mom's backrubs and had a headache last night for no apparent reason. He know about WS and OM in general since the first counselor directed me to tell him. It was a good idea.

I have a phonecall into another counselor today for an appointment. I think I'm just going to have to tell WS we're not coming back until she makes an effort to change her behavior.

Life is tough.

I signed my son up for school on Monday and afterschool care on Wednesday. He's got all his old friends around him, but I told him he would be heading back to Europe once mom and I straightened things out, probably at the end of March. At the time I was only thinking about the infidelity. YS misses his mom's backrubs and had a headache last night for no apparent reason. He know about WS and OM in general since the first counselor directed me to tell him. It was a good idea.

I have a phonecall into another counselor today for an appointment. I think I'm just going to have to tell WS we're not coming back until she makes an effort to change her behavior.

Life is tough.

Sleepless,

You are very freshly into this yet, if I understood the date that you gave. Was it only last week that you discovered this?

Young guys sometimes have all their brains shut down except for the part that answer the question : "Is it female?". Otherwise, I can't understand the "nanny's" conduct.

I think you need to sit tight where you are for now. Of course 8-yo misses his Mom - but she's the one who left. This may be fixable. It's very early in the game.

BTW. Many WW's say "I never loved you". Maybe it means something, maybe not. My WW says that. I choose to believe it. It makes things easier for me - but I do have some vague memory of a girl who couldn't keep her hands off me long long ago. But, I suppose she was just foolin' me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good luck to you.

My advice. Sit tight. It's her move.

BTW. My W was/is a physical abuser (of me only) too. So, I know that routine. My consistent response if she hits me is just to walk out of the house - be gone for awhile. Sometimes I have done that for verbal abuse as well. She's just about stopped doing those things. Maybe she's just changing naturally, or maybe my approach works.

-AD

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Seattle,

Where is your son's citizenship?
Who has his passport?
Do you and W have different citizenships?

-AD

Thanks AD.
I just found out a week ago today almost to the minute. My wife, son and I are all naturally born U.S. citizens. She left his passport for me. I wouldn't let her take him.

I seem to remember her as amorous in the beginning too.

I'll try to be patient. Not my greatest asset. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

SNS - did you catch my last response to your post on the other forum? (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=005085;p=2#000021)

Sounds like you are getting good advice here. I would like to add a couple fo books to your reading list: "The State of Affairs", by Mulliken, and "Boundaries in Marriage". She sounds controlling to me, and both those books have good things to say on the subject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessNSeattle:
<strong> She left his passport for me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Sleepless.

One more suggestion. Give the passport to a trusted friend or attorney for safe keeping for now. The reason is to put some distance between it and you and your wife. That just might save you from doing something you regret in a weak moment, or enabling her to do something weak. Adding even a bit of time and trouble to any relational equation can change the result dramatically.

All the best,
Gimble

Sleepless - well, it seems there's a heck of a lot of infidelity going on here in Seattle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> My WH fell in love with his friend's wife, who happened to have three children. The OW is divorced, my H and I are legally separated. My H and I told each other regularly how much we loved each other and that we didn't know what we did to deserve each other. As recently as six months before he left for OW, he asked his friend if marriage always stayed as good as ours had. Next thing I know, he told me that she made him realize that he never really loved me - not in "that" way. Don't ask me what the last ten years were about, but his words broke my heart. It is very typical MLC/WS language, I have found. Don't take it personally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> One thing I strongly suggest is that you check out the Save Your Marriage Central website in addition to this one. They have folks who can act as intermediary's on your behalf with your Wife and help you figure out how to best proceed with the idea of saving your marriage as an end-goal. My using them as an intermediary, you can avoid the emotional blow-ups that you're currently having with each other, which is likely further damaging the marriage. I know that this site and that one have helped provide me with a wealth of information that has proven helpful in my recovery. Obviously, we're in different phases as I went "dark" when my H left and haven't spoken to him in 9 months. You can't avoid communicating with your W because of your sons. Again, an expert who can take the explosive communications away from the scene might be helpful while you get some counselling here or with professionals to determine the steps that are going to be best for your children, yourself, your family, and your wife - in that order. Hang tough and be well. (At least the sun has been shining for the last couple of weeks, which has helped me!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Just got of the phone with WW. One of the ugly details I left out was that while sending the OM home, I did it without my wife's knowledge. She shot out of here and chased him to the airport. When she returned, it was just me, and I sent my son away for the night so she would not take him with her to Europe.

When she got really angry and started throwing things, I tried to hold her, but she didn't calm down and I was beginning to lose my patience. In hopes of calming the situation, (I didn't want anyone to get hurt) I called the police. After the phone call started she calmed down and I told the police not to come. Unfortunately they came, and they arrested her in spite of my protests and refusal to cooperate. Apparently they HAVE to arrest someone by State Law. She spent the next 40 hours in jail. She's not really happy with me. I guess that could be a Love Buster.

So she promised herself in jail that she could not be married to a man that would do that to her. And she has to divorce me. Now I just wait for the paperwork I guess.

She joked that maybe we could still date and maybe we'll get married again one day. I don't see her correcting any of her behavior, so I guess that isn't really an option.

Anything else I can do that's healthy? Son is still here with me, but I've agreed to work out a shared custody verbally. He'll finish his school year there, and come here for the summer. I can visit him anytime.

Hmmmm. Do I move to the divorcing/Divorced section yet?

I lived through my mother's 2 divorces and my father's 2 marriages. My father's 2nd wife abused me verbally and mentally. One time she abused my younger sister physically, a horrible episode that my sister escaped from by running out of the house and down the street, barefoot, to hide behind a hedge until she could get to a neighbor's house and use the phone to call for help. That event was witnessed by my stepmother's parents, who didn't lift a hand to stop her.

My stepmother verbally abused me when my father was at work (he worked nights) and he was out of the house. I never complained to him. I didn't tell anyone either. But my father knew it was going on. I dreaded going home after school. I used to walk up the hill, looking into the lighted windows of other people's houses, wishing I lived in any one of them except the place where my address was.

She harangued me, used sarcasm, belittled me, insulted me, all in front of my father. What I can't forgive is that he knew and he didn't stand up for me. All he did was tighten his lips, blow air out of his nose, and repeat her name. He never spoke up for me.

For years afterward I re-created situations where I became a victim of verbal abuse, in employment, in friendships, in dating. I was still trying to work it out.

There, my early life story. Why did I write it? Because it is your absolute responsibility to protect your son from his mother's abuse. You got him out of the house so that he wouldn't see the two of you arguing, that's very good.

I hope you are standing up to her for him, firmly and strong, to stop her from lashing out at him. If you do that, he will know his value, and he will know how to stand up for himself.

The alternative, if he does not keep re-creating scenarios where he is a victim, is that he will bully someone else. He shouldn't be alone with his mother.

An other form of abuse is her having an affair with another man, in front of him. The impact of that is horrible. Thank God you are there to fight for that little boy. I watched for years as my mother had "friends" over to the house. Sometimes if they got too drunk she let them sleep on the couch. There they were, in the morning, when we left to catch the school bus. My stomach turned over like worms, because I knew they would be humping each other after we left the house.

These creepy "friends" would have the nerve to lecture us sternly, about how we weren't good to our mother. I wasn't quick enough to shoot back "How good are you to your wife, does she know you visit my mother?"