Thank you Bellevue. I am similarly aware that my wife experienced similar problems, but worse if you can imagine that.

For that reason I want to ensure our 8 year old is safe from that abuse. I spoke up in defense of our 18 year old on the occasions that my wife became abusive.

Currently my wife does not have that problem with our youngest son, but I'm aware enough to watch for it. I've also approached her about it directly. At this time it looks like the separation from a loving mother will be a bigger problem than any possible emotional abuse. Our oldest son explained she never got mad at him before we were married.

I'm meeting with a counselor soon to discuss the alternatives of that subject specifically. Thank you for your conviction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says if I don't bring him back now, there's no point in ever seeing him again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This stood out.
(I still haven't finished reading the thread.)
What kind of a mother would make a statement like that?

I'm back. For review. WW back in Europe on post. 19 yo OM (nanny) back home on East Coast without way to get to WW. DS(8) living with me since DDay 2/25/05. No charges against arrested WW from 2/28/05 police visit. Her record is clear as of yesterday. WW has proceeded to investigate divorce paperwork and prepared a crude spreadsheet to separate worldy possessions yesterday including three properties, artwork and eight cars (its a hobby).

I picked up Love Must Be Tough day before yesterday from Dr. Dobson, and have been devouring it. He sure nailed me to the wall. Fortunately, it appears I've been following his advice since DDay more or less. Took my respect back by putting OM on airplane and keeping son from emotionally distraught wife. Her being arrested was not part of the plan, but that's in another thread.

I'm concerned WW believes she still needs her freedom to find that 'feeling' with someone else. But there are chinks in her armor. She woke me up at 12:30 a.m. day before yesterday on her walk to work. I played it cool. No LBs, just cordial conversation. She said she was bored. Talked about 20 minutes.

She sent the spreadsheet for splitting assets yesterday, and began the E-Mail with,

"OK- This is harsh to look at - and I agree....I am sorry - and I mean it for a lot of things that have happened between us. Ok?"

We have agreed to return our DS 8 to the International School so he could complete the semester, and I'll shuttle him from Europe a couple times through May. Since I'm heading back over next weekend, she's going to set up some social outings with our friends there. Hmm.

In spite of the physical separation, I'm applying Tough Love distancing (opening the cage door), but I will display all of my self confidence, dress well, all of my charm, but little else.... in a loving, but distant way.

Our 18 year old knows everything at school in Southern California. He's still grossed out about him mom and a 19 year old. But I don't know what to tell him.

Moving to Europe just isn't very possible. Taking care of my sons and myself is possible. Since I work for an airline, I mobile enough to see both boys when I want for relatively little money. My wife will no longer have that privelege.

I think divorce is inevitable, but I'm not sure what life after will be.

She is sooo following the script of a WS. I would really be surprised if this ended in D. They all say they want a D, lots even file for D most end up coming home. Keep up with the Plan A. It works, I'm living proof of it!

OK kloe72. I like good news! Here's the E-Mail I got today. Sounds like she feels rejected, and she's afraid people will find out we're divorcing so she's putting some other rings back on.

WW writes:
You seemed pretty cold in your messages yesterday - Even if you don't think
it - I do worry about you, and love you in my own sort of way. I have always told you that... I just don't know if it is right for us to continue as a married couple, but in all the other ways, our relationship won't change - unless you want it to. In fact, I will most likely be nicer to you since you won't be my spouse.

WHAT???? So she wants me to come over, sleep in her bed, make nice with our friends. She wants to wear rings in the right place so no one asks any questions....... Here's my question.

Before I read that note this morning, she called me on my cel phone and asked why I didn't call her this morning. (Because you said you can't be married to me anymore and want a divorce!) I told her we had to finish our son's homework and had to rush out of the house. I said we would wake her up in the morning before she runs off to a tennis tournament.

Based on Plan A, playing hard to get etc. If she comes onto me when I visit, what do I do? I mean in this case!! Do I play hard to get? Tell her its not appropriate? I mean we're still married. Do I give her all of the attention she used to receive before she fooled around? I think I still need to remain a little stand offish without looking pitiful. And I don't feel pitiful right now. Feel pretty good. Maybe its the drugs. (prescribed)

Come on people. Do I have a typical WW ??? or what?

Hi SNS,

From the message and her other behavior it's clear that she is still confused,at least to me anyway.Have you heard of Michelle Weiner Davis's Divorce Busting 180 Degree List? You don't see it mentioned around here much anymore and I wish I knew how to post a link from TMCM's garage but,it might be worth looking into if your WW is still going to pursue a D.Maybe someone can post a link for you.This of course would be done in favor of a Plan A at this point.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessNSeattle:
<strong> OK kloe72. I like good news! Here's the E-Mail I got today. Sounds like she feels rejected, and she's afraid people will find out we're divorcing so she's putting some other rings back on.

WW writes:
You seemed pretty cold in your messages yesterday - Even if you don't think
it - I do worry about you, and love you in my own sort of way. I have always told you that... I just don't know if it is right for us to continue as a married couple, but in all the other ways, our relationship won't change - unless you want it to. In fact, I will most likely be nicer to you since you won't be my spouse.

Before I read that note this morning, she called me on my cel phone and asked why I didn't call her this morning. (Because you said you can't be married to me anymore and want a divorce!) I told her we had to finish our son's homework and had to rush out of the house. I said we would wake her up in the morning before she runs off to a tennis tournament.

WHAT???? So she wants me to come over, sleep in her bed, make nice with our friends. She wants to wear rings in the right place so no one asks any questions....... Here's my question.

Based on Plan A, playing hard to get etc. If she comes onto me when I visit, what do I do? I mean in this case!! Do I play hard to get? Tell her its not appropriate? I mean we're still married. Do I give her all of the attention she used to receive before she fooled around? I think I still need to remain a little stand offish without looking pitiful. And I don't feel pitiful right now. Feel pretty good. Maybe its the drugs. (prescribed)

I met with an individual counselor yesterday who helped confirm some of the details about how to handle our son with my wife. I think with both sons on my side saying they miss me, the guilt could build.

Come on people. Do I have a typical WW ??? or what? I'm an engineer, I need data!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Here is the 180 list:

Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

Tx kloe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You guys are the best!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kloe72:
<strong> Here is the 180 list:

Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
Didn't do that too much.
2. No frequent phone calls.
DEFINITELY didn't do that. She can call me.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
Did that a little bit, but in a non-emotional way to explain why I would take her back.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
No sweat.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
Do you mean like distant future, or the plan next weekend? She's a planner. Do I discourage thinking past tomorrow?
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
I already thanked my family for their concern, but I would figure it out on my own. I involved her sister when I confronted her about the other man 2 weeks ago, but not since.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
I don't think I want assurances right now. I'm not sure I trust her head
8. Do not buy gifts.
No problem
9. Do not schedule dates together.
What if she schedules the date? I won't!
10. Do not spy on spouse.
OK
11. Do not say "I Love You".
Good idea. I won't use the terms of endearmant like honey etc.

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
I kind of am since she wants me to split up our stuff!
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
I think I can easily do that too. I define outgoing. I'll work on attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
I have plans to go camping, fly around Alaska, and visit friends I haven't seen in 5-10 years. Sound like I'm moving on?
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. I'll have to focus on that. Aloof? Did I mention I used to perform in summer theatre?
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
Ok
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
I can do it.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
I think that means no back rubs. I always used to rub her feet. I guess that means sleeping in the guest room. If she comes in, do I kick her out?
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
When focused, I can do that. She pushes a mean button sometimes. Keep voice even.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
Yeah. I'm kind of a Tigger character. Be subdued...
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
She mentioned that before. I'll try to be understanding?
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
Don't talk too much. Like I'm doing now?
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. I've got a nice tenor voice when I'm not stressed. When I get stressed it changes. She notices that too.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
The kissing the other man in front of me pretty much conquered that problem. I'm wondering when I can sign up for the dating websites!
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. But don't focus too much on her.... what are we going to talk about. The weather only takes a few minutes.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared. That is the best piece of information I've seen. But I thought she was feeling good because I set her free.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did I mention you guys are the best? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Octobergirl.

You sound like a pretty level headed person. I'm sorry to see your marriage reconciliation did not go as well.

When this is all over, I'll buy you a cup of coffee. (Like a Starbucks card.)

Octobergirl.

You sound like a pretty level headed person. I'm sorry to see your marriage reconciliation did not go as well.

When this is all over, I'll buy you a cup of coffee. (Like a Starbucks card.)

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi SNS,

It is true,I am a very level headed person,always have been.If you read what a Reformer type enneagram is,you would basically be talking about me.It describes me to a T.

Anyway,add in a criossant with that cup of coffee and you've got a deal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O

O girl.

Done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just caught up on your story.

This is the thing SCREAMING out at me that no one else has mentioned:

She has an 18 year old son. SHE WAS KISSING SOMEONE JUST ONE YEAR OLDER THAN HER SON!!!!

Can you say, inclination for incest here?

You may have grounds for sole custody with supervised visits.

KA,

I did mention this age issue long ago when SNS first arrived on the JFO board.I called the nanny(OM) a boy toy.LOL

I would not go so far as to say it's incestuous in nature,it certainly raised an eyebrow for me how young he was but you know,men get involved with much younger women all the time too.It's a 2 way street. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you should immediately file for sole legal custody of your young son. Then I think you should stay out of Europe with him.

Please consider that if you return your son to Europe and your wayward wife, you may never see him again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here are a few reasons off the top of my head..1 she is a known abuser..you have yourself witnessed it..and this is when she is "stable" right now she is a loose cannon...2 WS are notorious oath breakers. Allowing your child to live in another country with WS is just begging for trouble. Don't do it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These two quotes from Gimble and Noodle are the best advice for you right now.

You have to be out of your ever lovin mind to leave your son in Europe with her right now.

Please don't do it.

One more thing, you did the right thing by calling the police. She owns that, not you.

I'm a little anxious today. My wife has not made contact in two days. I wanted my son to call her because he missed her, but she doesn't answer her home phone or cel phone. The cel phone now sounds like it's ringing in the U.S. This reminded me she had a meeting in DC, but I didn't know it was THIS week. (If I'm being suspicious, and I am) It sounds like she caught an early flight out of Europe to hit DC Saturday.
We have a lot of friends there, but the Boy Toy is there too! I haven't talked to his dad since I airmailed his son back home, but I think I need to so that no contact is made.

The nervous/worried part of me is concerned that she's been really depressed over there, and sounding kind of clingy to me. I hope she didn't do something irrational/stupid. No one else has a key over there to find out.

I finished Dr. Dobson's Love Must Be Tough last night, and decided I'm not rolling over on the divorce. Because I believe she loves, me somewhere in there, and I have a new determination to change the course of our relationship for our boys. I can't just take the easy way out of this, even if it means flying over every weekend for a day to kick Plan A off.

One think I've never mentioned before is that she started dating me after breaking up with a long term boyfriend. She admitted after we were married she still loved him, and would keep seeing him as a friend. They would see each other physically about once a year, and call or write every so often. It seems she had an EM going all the time. But that one didn't click!

I've sent an E-Mail request for a telephone session with Dr. Harley to help me sort this mess out.

Counselor I spoke with on Thursday believed sharing custody with our son would be OK for now. I have far more control right now than you may realize. If I go to her boss with the details, her position over there would be in jepardy. They really frown on this sort of behavior. Besides if the divorce occurs, Seattle is so damn liberal, they consistently give custody of the children to the mothers, regardless of their history. Fathers rights in this city/state are pretty weak.

Whew. She's not dead. She flew into DC on Saturday, and didn't make contact until today. My suspicious mind says she was with the OM. The weird part is that she's meeting his dad on Tuesday to return OM stuff. Eeewww. She asked me what I told his dad. I said they were having an inappropriate relationship and I caught them kissing. I'm trying to be totally truthful, just can't remember. I think that's kind of balsy myself. Safe to assume she's still in denial.

I hit her with I don't really want a divorce and I think we could build up our romantic love with some changes in our relationship. She was not toally convinced. On the flipside, she does not like my financial analysis of our assets. I don't want any of her paycheck, but I do want to split the equity in the 3 homes right down the middle. That way I can pay my mortgage without moving, and its fair! I was sooo cool. No LBs. Told her not to get so excited, make a counter proposal. "So you want to split everything down the middle??" No, I want to work it out if we can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She was exhausted, and I told her to get some rest. No I Love you Tonight though.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

She weakened a little bit so that I could at least propose the MB route. I said our relatioship needed to change for us to be happy. It's most important for us to try for our 8 year old. I even admitted that when she tried to bring up problems in the past, that I got defensive, and tried to fix her. I said that was inappropriate for me.

I'm getting good at this. Are there any wayward wives that can tell her that the feeling can be developed if we work at it, or am I lying to her?
She claims never to have had that feeling. I would like to give it to her, for our sons, for her, and for me.

I started lifting weights late last week to go with my 7 pound weight loss. Curls, situps, etc. Ladies, what's the best way to get hair off your shoulders??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />