If you keep silent about an A you endorse it.
If you turn the other way you accept it.

It is unacceptable to not tell the BS about an A. By enabeling the A you promote behavior that is destructive to the WS, OP, BS, and each of their families.

But friends often don't know any better. They confuse their role. They think they are supposed to be supportive and "there" for their friend. They are too embarrased to confront this issue. They like to think that this is not there place to say anything. They need to take away the keys of the A, the secrecy, but they understimate the dangers.

You know, right now I'm teetering on how to forgive some people who knew. I struggle with this, especially since MB has taught me that an A is an addiction. If it's an addicition, than friends who do nothing or help the WS or OP hide the addicition are really just preventing someone they care about from getting help. They become suppliers to the addiction.

Some of the greatest sins are a result of people looking away.

I suppose forgiving others doesn't mean that they'll understand I think they were a poor friend to me or FWH. It means that I'll forgive their mistake regardless of any personal improvement.

But should I keep friends like this around? Do I need this kind of support in my life?

I feel your anger, but friends do help friends in hidding A many times. Here is a link to a post I made yesterday about this same issue.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=037318

Good luck!

Are you sure? My W's friend introduced her to her first fling. The my W's friend got mad at me when I exposed it to his commander. He lost a stripe and his pregnate wife found out. I really fill sorry for him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I do feel bad for his wife because I heard later this wasn't the first time. Unfortinately not my W's last time. I'm still not sure if it will work out but strike three and she's out. Can't play ball and not strike out sometimes.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: RHM ]</small>

Loy-

I agree with you, and there are a LOT of people who knew about my WH's affair for a definite while I was fumbling around in the dark looking for the answer. I don't know how to go about forgiving these people, I actually harbor ill will for them.

As for myself. During all this crazy crap, one of my friends was seeing a married man, I went ballistic (Yes the fact that it's happening to me impacted my reaction). She repeatedly told me "He loves me, he said he's leaving his wife, he said that he never loved her...etc", I said "HE IS LYING" she in her foggy state, of course did not believe me. I kept it up though, I figured the very least I could do was apply pressure to end it from my end, that's really all I could do to help this man's BS since I didn't know either of them, and apply pressure I did. I exploded on her a few times, I said "I cannot believe that you have the audacity to sit here and talk to me about this when you know what's going on with me." Well, I've been her friend for a long, long, time and I am who she comes to to talk about her relationships, so it seemed natural for her to talk to me about it. She would waver back and forth, knowing she was wrong, but feeling *addicted* (Which she called love), she would tell him not to call her anymore, but then he would and she's be right back to square one again.

About 3 weeks ago, the mans BW called my friend, they talked for quite a while, my friend told her that he said he didn't live there anymore...etc, and his wife told her some stuff she didn't know, My friend apologized and told the woman that she would have no further contact with him, and the woman kicked him out. I don't know what's become of him, but my friend is a basket case.

I guess I don't really ever think about how this affects the OP, I mean I personally hope that it hurts like hell. But my friend has become very depressed, she worked with the guy, so she started not wanting to go to work. She went on anti-depressants, but she still got suicidal, and is currently being seen at an intensive outpatient program like I am. She plans on quitting her job, she never wants to see him again.

In any event, I think that the pressure that I applied probably factored into the eventual demise of the Affair, since his wife called and confirmed that what I had been telling her was true all along.

So, yeah, if you know someone is having an affair, I would make sure that my opinion was voiced, and if I knew the spouse, even if it was my friend, I would tell them. They deserve to know, and it may end my friendship, but hopefully it could save their marriage.

-Caren

Unfortunately, moral cowardice is quite prevalent and many folks are not willing to take a risk for the sake of someone else. Oh, they justify it by saying it's not "my business" while they look the other way, but they are really just cowards. The truth is they don't give a damn. They don't want any trouble.

Much easier to pick your nose than make waves and warn someone they are being victimized.

My wifes best friend knew about the A. She was also a friend of mine. I forgave her because when she was married to a friend of mine I saw him cheat and said nothing. I later confessed after their marriage broke up, and she forgave me.

A little different situation.

I was friends with this woman years ago. She started getting very thin and I noticed her going to the bathroom after meals. I suspected an eating disorder. I was getting very scared that she was going to kill herself. Iaksed her about it and she made me promiss not to tell anyone. One day I couldn't take it anymore so I went to her family, we did an intervention and I tricked her into getting captured and put in a hospital. Today she is healthy, happy and married with three kids. She still hates me and hasn't talked to me for 15 years. Still tells people what an ******* I am for doing that.

Sometimes the fear of loosing a friend is stronger then letting the friend hurt themselves or others around them.

Hi Loy,

I agree with you.I have since ax'ed all the former "friends" that supported my WH in his adultery and that I thought were my friends too.They have no place in my life.

It's a persoanl decision though.Even if these friends that I had were to come to me and apologize for their behavior,I am not sure I would allow them in my life.They never did anyway so I let them go.To me,they are,like Mel eluded to,cowards.

Life is too short to have toxic people hanging around you.IMO.

O

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who are only anti-adultery, pro-exposure if the betrayed spouse is a friend or relative of theirs...

They're pro-adultery, anti-exposure if the wayward spouse is a friend or relative of theirs.

Conditional 'ethics'...

Also, some people think the exposure is what causes the damage - not the adultery.

IMHO they underestimate the destructiveness of adultery.
It is far more dangerous than people presume.
(even deadly sometimes)

My FWS had a longtime HS friend who became a WS and he immediately cut him from his life. The WS friend left his W for the OW. He could not condone his behavior towards his W. We are still friends with the exW to this day. Have not spoken to the WS for years.

YET, my H became a WS years later. What does that mean???

I know if I knew anything about any kind of infidelity on anyone's part - be it WS friend, relative, or visa versa - I would sing like a bird.

I will be honest and say that BEFORE my FWH's A, I am not sure if I would 'sing.' I always said I'd leave "this fast" *snapping fingers* if my H ever cheated on me - and here I am....with a FWH.

Boy, the lessons we learn in life, eh?

If I knew a man or woman was cheating on their spouse and I knew the other spouse and how to get in touch with them,yes,the information would be relayed.

As painful as it was for me to go through this,I would have preferred it to the treachery and lies behind my back that I would never know of.I would rather deal in truth than deceit.No matter what.

O

Hmmm...

Has it occurred to any of you that most OPs start off as 'friends'?

Before this, I considered my wife's OP to be a very close friend.

People are people. The Fog isn't localized.

dewt

Your right it starts as friend most of the time. The OM was my best friend before he stepped into my marriage. Sad how friends could do this to each other. I even asked to back off as did some mutual friends but that is'n what they wanted. To much fog.

RHM

I just can't stop thinking of the poor woman a number of years ago who slapped her teenage son in the grocery store. Not sure of the details, but as I recall someone else in the store called CPS on her. The kid himself said "I was mouthing off and deserved it, my mom doesn't beat me." (And a slap in the face IS debatable.) But the point is the kid could have said she beat him all the time. HE knew the score. Didn't prevent her from no end of trouble with the county system.

And some bystander thought it was wrong.

If I were beating my kids, would you tell?

If I were dumping toxic waste into the drinking water, would you tell?

If I were gleefully putting dead roaches in the food I was cooking at my restaraunt for jollies, would you tell?

If I were stealing change from the dressers of the elderly at a nursing home, would you tell?

If I were exposing myself to children on a playground, would you tell?

If I were regularly speeding through a school zone, would you tell?

If I were entertaining terrorist threats, would you tell?

If I were risking the health of my wife and the welfare of my kids by bringing another child into the world for me to feed, would you tell? And why no to this one?

=======

Here is one to REALLY hit home. Suppose I was some sicko who was taking my semen in a little bottle into the drugstore and lacing feminine products because I thought would be funny for someone to get pregnant. Would you tell?

How is that different from an affair? Or IS it that different?

The risk of introduction of a newborn child with no clearly defined family structure and one or more parties not knowing or not thinking clearly.

Which does that describe? My sicko in the drugstore, or an affair? Can't tell, can yah?

NCWalker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But should I keep friends like this around? Do I need this kind of support in my life?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO, They are the stones in your shoe and the dust on your clothes. Remove them.

They will of course take the cowards way out again. They will say you blame them for your affair or your spouses affair.

They are not at fault for the affair, however they let the destruction continue. Kind of like visiting your friends house and noticing that they have termites but not telling them. It isn't your fault that they have termites, but perhaps things would have been so much different if you let them know what shaky ground thier home was on.

And some people like to watch the failings of others, it makes them feel better about their own lives.

notsosadman28 ,
but friends do help friends in hidding A many times.

rhm,
Are you sure? My W's friend introduced her to her first fling.

I think you missed Loy's point.
People you work with, hang out with or acquaintances are not necessarily "friends".

My daughter printed up a list she found on the internet of sayings about friends.
One is, “a friend will bail you out of jail. A good friend will be sitting next to you joking about getting arrested.”

Not really. A TRUE/REAL friend will keep you from doing something wrong and getting arrested in the first place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>A TRUE/REAL friend will keep you from doing something wrong and getting arrested in the first place. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Depends on what you get arrested for...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

dewt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> notsosadman28 ,
but friends do help friends in hidding A many times.

rhm,
Are you sure? My W's friend introduced her to her first fling.

I think you missed Loy's point.
People you work with, hang out with or acquaintances are not necessarily "friends".

My daughter printed up a list she found on the internet of sayings about friends.
One is, “a friend will bail you out of jail. A good friend will be sitting next to you joking about getting arrested.”

Not really. A TRUE/REAL friend will keep you from doing something wrong and getting arrested in the first place. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris,

The thing is that what is wrong to you might not be wrong to them. In my case my W's friend who knew about the A used to date a married man, now he D her W and they still date. So may be it was not so wrong to her. What I'm pretty sure is that right now she is not MY friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Chris,

The thing is that what is wrong to you might not be wrong to them. In my case my W's friend who knew about the A used to date a married man, now he D her W and they still date. So may be it was not so wrong to her. What I'm pretty sure is that right now she is not MY friend. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect the friend does know right from wrong, but chooses not to practice it. Of course, maybe she doesn't know right from wrong, and that is an entirely different animal. [our prisons are full of these people] Sane people do know that adultery is wrong and the converse, thankfully, is the exception.

Loy...
I loved your first post on this topic...

But should I keep friends like this around? Do I need this kind of support in my life?

perhaps loy the answer lays in the fact that these friends need YOU
not that you need them...

that they need that one person in all the chaos standing up for the bigger picture....

the one that says...
my marriage holds great value...
and in standing up for mine...I stand for yours as well...

Show your friends through your re-building the value

show your friends hope....

those that undermine other peoples marriages stand at great risk of undermining their own...

teach them loy...
guide them quietly...
seek strength and value in what you are offering them....
you will be rewarded

ARK

Y'know Ark, almost every time I come across one of your posts, I get the urge to print it out and tape it to my wall.

dewt