My wife and I have been married for 15 years but together for 16 years. We met in college in the laundry room, started talking and soon after fell in love. We both had a strong faith in God when we met. Talked all the times. Walked spent a large amount of free time together. We were both very happy together. We made a mistake of having sex before we were married. That was especially hard on her. It has been with us through these 16 years. That is just one of the many problems that have rcently come to light.

We have 4 children. Ages 15,12,9, and 5. It seems that she has pain during sexual intercourse. At first it was because her himen didn't break but continued after. I figured at the time that it had to do with our first bad experience... Now that we were married it shouldn't hurt. She tried to tell me but I wouldn't listen so she assumed that was the way it was supposed to be. Recently I re-discovered that it continues to hurt her. This has always been an obsticle in our relationship. After all who would have any sexual desire if pain was involved almost every time. We recently started looking for medical help for this problem.

This isn't the biggest problem though. Almost 3 months ago I started sensing something was 'going on'. My kids were telling me that mom was gone for hours at a time at night. No one knew why or where she was. Towards the end of November a person came in to the place my wife works and started talking to her. He invited her to come or some time and say hi. Oh, by the way he lives across the street.

She innocently went to say hi and started talking and spending time with him. Needless to say she was starting to form an emotional attachment with him. He was friendly and cared about what she had to say. Something she told me she was missing from me. She didn't feel a connection with me anymore. This lasted for about 2 weeks off and on. A total of 4 visits totally 17 hours for time spent together. Although it never got to sex. She did kiss him on the their last visit together which just happened to be on our couch while I was at work.

She said it was just a friendship at first until she broke down and told me that she didn't love him but couldn't stop thinking about him. And that she was leaving me after the holidays because I didn't provide her with a good self worth. Something else important to mention is she suffers from seasonal depression. She was depressed when she met him and he made her feel better.

She is very angry at me because I took that good feeling away from her.

She says she's not mad but she is. After our first discussion and confrontation. We eventually calmed down and decided to try to make our marriage work. After this she met him one last time at her work and told him that it was over and we both wanted no more contact with him. Soon after this a friend found out this guy had a record for sexual abuse of a child. I made the mistake of trying to convince her that this guy was bad news. She said I had her convinced until I made another mistake.

She had given him a stuffed animal bear that we had picked up on our previous family vacation. just the thought of this guy having part of my wife drove me up the wall so I called him and demanded it back. I called my wife and told her what I told him and that the bear was coming back. I had mentioned it to her previously but she didn't want me to. I did. So she called him and talked to him for over and hour while I was trying to call on call waiting. She asked him about all the bad things people were saying about him from his past and police record. She was convinced that his past was his past. From that moment she reattached herself to him. Not physical contact but she held onto him through the bear. Whenever she was feeling down(most days) she would snuggle with this bear in secret. She finally told me a few days ago when we had a large arguement. (She told me she didn't want me to hold her. I asked her who she wants to comfort her then...)

Next day things had calmed down a bit and she was snuggling with me again until I fell sleep. Then she went across the street and knocked on his door. She sat on his steps, her long hair over her head. hoping and praying that he would come out and comfort her. She never say him but heard him come out look at her and then close the door. And there she sat. I startled awake about 45 minute after I had fallen asleep. I went searching for her. No jackets were gone and it was cold. It wasn't too hard for me to figure out that she was across the street. I went on got her but not before she told me that I took every happiness away from her. I put her down all the time and th only thing she had foun to make her happy was his friendship and now I had taken that away also.

The way I see it she is in serious withdrawl and can't let him go even though he has stopped contacting her. He knows that I know and that I live across the street. I have spent the past 3 months pouring my haert and soul into our marriage to save it but everything I say just seems to hurt her. The more I fight for our relationship the more she seems to move away.

it is very hard to distance ourselves from him living across the street but I don't think we can afford to move. We went on a Marriage Enounter weekend and have tried councilling? @ seesion later and she gave up on it saysing that it was just bringing up negative things that made her feel worse. Her depression alone would bea hard thing to handle but this ontop of it. She also has lost considerable weight from 135 down to 118. I have treid to get her to eat better and stay ontop of the depression but I just seem ot keep sliding down the hill. She won't seek help even though I am willing.

A break through happened after the last 'visit' I was trying to convince her that I was willing to take her back and that she didn't destroy everything. I told her that she just needed to let him go and focus on our marriage and our kids. That she will be happy again is she wants it. She listened but wouldn't say anything more. Later she wrote me a short letter that said she needs a few days of silence and think about what she needs, feels, wants. She said she was tired of us both saying things to hurt each other so we should just write this in a notebook.

earlier that day she took off her wedding ring and gave it to me. She told me to hold it for awhile and to give it back when she deserved to be my wife. I took mine off and gave it to her and said to her to hold it until she is ready to come back to me. After a few hours of writing stuff back and forth she came up to me holding my ring and I got her out for her. we exchanged rings again and continued to write for the rest of the day. We smiled more that day then we had for weeks. She told me that she had given me back part of her heart but she had to find the rest of the pieces. She will give them when she finds them and she can trust me not to verbally hurt her... It was a good day. She is still not willing to give this guy up though. She said to me she has because he came out and looked at her but turned around. He chose to have no more contact. She told me she is here with me but I may never get that special bond back with her. I have told her just to let go of the guilt and come back to us. To keep walking forward...

This has been extremely hard on both of us. The wounds keep reopening especially with him across the street. I don't want to push her but how long can I give my all if she keeps 'pineing' for him and their lost friendship.

She knows what she did crossed the line. She told me that she was sorry but she still ends up either going to him or holding onto the dream of him. She has my forgiveness she has asked for God's forgiveness but she can't forgive herself. She told me that she can't understand why I want her back. She has said some hurtful things that will be with me the rest of my life. One of the hardest was her looking me in the eye and saying... "You don't make me happy anymore, I don't love you in that way anymore."

I told her that she fell in love with him whether she wants to admitt it or not. She denies this but why else would she hold onto this and jeopordise our whole life together. Like I said I think she is in withdrawl and this last visit a few days ago started the process again. She tells me that I will never understand where she is unless I have gone through it myself. To a point I agree yet when is enough enough?

Any help or advice would be very appreiciated...

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Zanthor ]</small>

Zanthor,

Your story sounds so much like mine. I am so sorry for you.

You have come to the right place. You will get good advice here.

Hi Zanthor, I am sorry you are here, but you are in the right place. Your story is very very typical......and very tragic.

Your W has an addiction to this man. And while I think your marriage is very salvagable, it will take months and years to ever get to the point of recovery because you live across the street from the OM. Most marriages could never survive such a thing.

See, your W is like an alcoholic who is trying to quit drinking. But, she has to stare into the bar every day and just cannot ever get it off her mind. She longs to go into that bar and have a beer. She is obsessed with that beer. She can smell it and almost taste it. She wants it with all her heart and soul. She tries her hardest to avoid the bar, but in an inevitable moment of weakness the temptation is just too great and she goes into the bar and has a drink. And so it goes, over and over and over again.

A death of a thousand cuts as this scene is played over and over and over again.

This is why Harley recommends moving if you have to in order to end contact. To do otherwise is to not understand the powerful addictive spell from which your wife is under.

In short, her recovery will never begin until she withdraws from her addiction. And withdrawal will never take place until contact ends. NEVER.

Nor will your recovery ever take place. Every contact puts you back to Day 1 of recovery.

So please understand how very important it is to move your family away from there. Give your W a chance to withdraw from her addiction. Get her away from the bar.

And in the meantime, I would suggest taking the emotional needs questionaires on this website in order to understand each other's top EN's. It sounds like she was very lonely and perhaps did not feel respected. I don't know if that is true or a manufactured grievance on her part, but I think it is important to restoring your marriage and attracting her back to you.

Harley:

"Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. "

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Thanks for your support so far. I have read almost everything on the website. I printed some things out for her to read in an attempt to allow her to understand and face this. she has yet to read them after 2 months. I have tried a wide range of approaches but nothing seems to help. I have trouble dealing with past insecurities and an anger management problem. That has come a long way by the way. I have faced and controlled many demons but still the past hurts she holds are there. She says she forgives but at this point I think those are just words. I don't know for sure. She tells me that no matter what she does is never enough. I feel that way too. No matter how I try to be a better person it is never enough. As long as she holds onto this...

I had a friend at the very beginning offer us help to move... Maybe I should call them back and accept the help. Get us moved ASAP. Nothing else I have tried is effectivefor more then short term relief.

Zanthor, have you read the book Lovebusters and His Needs/Her Needs? You might find alot of very helpful things in those books that would help you understand how you are coming across to her.

I hope and pray you do call your friend back and get help in moving. I think you are in a dangerous, no win situation as long as you live across the street. I can't imagine the hell you all must be going through having to look at his house every day. You essentially can NEVER get away from him.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

We don't have Love Busters but we have His need, Her Needs and the one for Christian parents. She won't take the time to read them with me. In fact I over did it when ordering help books and info and such. I think it overloaded her so she won't deal with any of it. She is only reading 1 book about depression that I got. That is taking a long time... If it's helping that's great but it doesn't really help our relationship. Yet anyway.

I understand and see how a lot of this info would help us but until she faces this and comes to terms we can't effectively move forward. After all I can't force her as this would have the opposite result. The preverbial 1 step forward 3 steps back...

Zanthon, she probably won't be interested in reading anything at all until she gets through withdrawal. If even then. But I think it would be a great help to you, because it would help you understand her somewhat and give you the tools to sort of lead her out of this morass.

But......as you have already seen, she is not receptive to being educated and your instincts are right. It is a lovebuster to try and educate them.

<small>[ March 04, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Z - on the "On contacting the OP" thread, you wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been dealing with this for over 3 months... Caught my wife seeing guy across street. Only went as far as kissing... I eventually contacted him and told him to leave my wife and my family alone. This was a mistake. Not only could he have called police for harassment but the wounds reopened. All progress we had made was lost. The sad thing is I didn't even know that the progress was lost until a few days ago. When my W told me that if I wouldn't had contacted them and asked for a stuff animal back she wouldn't have called him back. They talked for an hour while I was trying to call her from work. They reconnected on the phone and re-started the withdrawl process.

Like I said though I didn't know about it for 2 months. She would hold the bear when she was lonely and sad instead of seeking me. And then she tells me it's all my fault that she had been hidding this because I couldn't let it go. My fault.... sigh Then when I try to work it out I am blamed for confronting her about the bear in the first place because OM is really a nice guy that was caught up in this. It's not his fault... Funny he seemd to be the guy kissing you...

Be very careful about contacting the other person. It can backfire big time...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not allow yourself to be convinced that contacting the OP was a mistake. It was no mistake - you were standing up for your family. Unless you were physical with this scumbag, no way could harrassment charges stick.

"When my W told me that if I wouldn't had contacted them and asked for a stuff animal back she wouldn't have called him back."

Baloney.

She has successfully used a tried and true blame shifting mechanism on you to project her guilt on to you. Very typical of people who cannot face their responsibilities. Do not fall for this crap.

Put that ring back on and keep it there. Take the moral high ground. Stand for your family and DO NOT let anyone beat you down as being responsible for the mess your wife and the other guy created.

Mel has offered good advice.

<small>[ March 05, 2005, 06:38 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Zanthor

My WS threatend me with a restraining order for harrasment when I spoke to the OM. I called him after months of dealing with this mess. I did not threaten him or anything. It is doubtful that she can file an RO from talking to someone.

My WS is very angry at me right now.

I have to agree, don't try to get your WS to read or educate herself. I politely asked my WS to read His Needs / Her Needs without any luck. But, I read as many books as I can now. Do the same. You can improve yourself but not her.

Zanthor, I thought the same thing that WAT has said about your contact with the OM. It is so common to hear WS' use anything to rationalize what they were already going to do. They were in contact for one reason and one reason only: they chose to! Don't take the blame for their choices.

I would also point out that the man has stopped talking to your wife, so it appears that your contact did work.

Understanding it doesn't make it any easier. I understand a lot of this but am basically powerless to do much with/for her. I shared a little bit in a loving fashion lastnight and spent 3 hours trying to dig myself out of the whole that I dug.

This morning I wrote in our 'sharing' notebook that I wanted to leave lastnight alone. To have a positive day spent with just family since we both have off today. She keeps saying things to bring me into conflict. She knows what things to say to hurt me. Throwing helpful advice I have shared back in my face but twisting it sound bad or selfish on my part.

I have two levels of problems dealing with this and the depression. She was thinking about committing suicide on Monday. I interrupted her by picking her up before she could just 'keep walking until she froze to death'. You might think this was just statement ot get a rise out of me but it is not. She is very cold and very low. I called and talked to her mom this morning. She doesn't know what to do either. I don't think she's back at this point she was on Monday but she seems to be withdrawing at the same time she is attacking. She wrote something in the notebook and asked my opinion. She followed it up with the statement that I can feel free to share my opinion even if it is hurtful because it won't affect her right now.

Well what is the point of following anything up if it is just going to be twisted around. I am at fault for some of the things leading up to her feeling that she has no freedom. Not sure what emotional need that would go under. She feels that her life is smoothering her. I am one of the main things that is 'forcing' her to loose her freedom. I take responisibility for my actions. Sorry isn't enough for her. 'I'll just go back to the way things were before when things calm down'

She says in one sentence that I am not to blame for all this and I am not at fault. The next sentence she is explaining what I did to her and why she feels that I keep her from want she wants.
I am not to blame but and I am the reason that everything happened...

After D-day happened she told me she was sorry that she hurt me but yet she keeps doing it. How sorry can a person really be if they jump right back in and do it again?

She also is holding it against me because I told her at my worst moments that I considered suicide. Now she uses this against me saying that she can't leave because I'll kill myself. She feels just as trpped as she did before and there is nothing I can ever do to release her from her sad life.

Part of me would like to take her in a room and yell at her to grow up and come to terms with this. Wasting everyones time wallowing in self pity. Holding the bitterness, anger, and hate up as a shield. She says she's not angry and hateful towards me. That is not the type of feelings she has... Ummmm I sure feel that hate. I told her in a note before she left a little bit ago. If she wants to keep poisoning our relationship I can't stop her but I would like to see her get past it.

I have seen some people talking about plan A and plan B where can I find info on these?...

<small>[ March 05, 2005, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Zanthor ]</small>

Zanthor,

Welcome to MB.....and kudos to you for seeking help with this awful situation. It will take a lot of strength, courage, honesty, and love to get through this, but you CAN do it.

I want to clarify something here. It is a topic that often confuses new BS's as well as new WS's because there are actually 2 things at play....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says in one sentence that I am not to blame for all this and I am not at fault. The next sentence she is explaining what I did to her and why she feels that I keep her from want she wants.
I am not to blame but and I am the reason that everything happened...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are 2 separate entities that need to be dealt with here.

1. Degradation of the M - Odds are, your M got to a point where it was incredibly vulnerable. There are a million things that can contribute to this, but in the end, the responsibility falls equally between the BS and the WS.

For instance. My STBXH was verbally and emotionally abusive, neglectful, and disrespectful to me. These were HIS issues. However, at the time, I took responsibility for these....and I figured I was not a good enough W for him. So I kept trying to do better, kept trying to improve, kept serving him.

What I didn't do was stand up for myself in the M. I didn't believe that I was a good W. I didn't set boundaries to enforce the respect I deserved.

So my H is 50% to blame, because he never should have treated me that way. But I am 50% to blame for allowing him to treat me that way, and for defining my self worth by what he thought.

2. The choice to have an A - Now to the second issue. There are many M's that are infested with abuse, neglect, hurt, etc. Yet many never have to deal with infidelity.

The choice to have an A is 100% your WS's responsibility.

She could have chosen to go to counseling. She could have chosen to leave the M. She could have chosen to separate. She could have chosen to let you know about the problems in the M.

There were tons of other choices she could have made. But her choice was to confide in someone else emotionally, and to allow it to move to a physical level. She will need to learn why she did not choose one of those other options. She will need to explore why she was too weak to deal with the M before turning to another person. She will need to explore (and then resolve) what allowed her to choose the A.

------------------------------------------------------

So, really it is true that you are to blame and you are not to blame. You are not to blame for her A. But you do have some responsibility in the condition of the M that made it vulnerable to an A.

Explore that aspect of it yourself. Why did you choose to treat her the way you did? Why were you drawn away from acting in a loving manner toward your W during the M?

Let her take ownership for the other parts......Why did she not confront you about the M? Why did she feel she needed to talk to another man? Why did she choose to take that relationship to another level? What inside her allowed her to choose such an unhealthy way to cope with her depression?

-------------------------------------------------------

A couple of other suggestions.....

~ Get a good, pro-marriage counselor or coach. Their guidance, objectivity, and experience will help speed along recovery and self exploration for both of you.

~ Be patient. This will not fix itself in a day, a month, or probably even a year. It took a long time for the M to get this way, and it will probably take a while to recover it.

~ You will both have to learn to trust each other again. You will have to learn to trust that she can make appropriate and healthy decisions with regards to infidelity....and she will have to earn that trust with actions.

She will have to learn to trust that you will treat her as a W should be treated. And that you will not revert back to your 'old ways' prior to the A.

~ Learn how to communicate safely to one another. Be honest with your feelings, but present them in a constructive way. And don't personalize everything the other person says as well. You both are in pain, and sometimes that pain will overrule your rational side.

~ Look at and explore the past, but focus on the future. Recovery is hard, but it can also be fun. It's almost like a do-over. You both now have an opportunity to build the M that you always wanted. You can choose to hate this path, or you can choose to embrace it and learn from it.

Good luck, Z. You guys can make it!

Zan, trying to reason with her is about like trying to reason with a drunk. And it will stay this way until contact ends and she starts withdrawal. All of the crazy, inconsistent things she is saying are so very typical of a WS in the throes of an addiction. They are angry at the BS for breaking up their fun. Very typical.

But, you can't reason with someone who is not reasonable. And reason will not come back to her until she withdraws from this powerful addiction she has now.

In a nutshell, Plan A means doing your best to meet her needs and avoiding lovebusters. It is designed to attract her back to you by meeting the needs that the OM was meeting. Now, she may not let you in at this point because she is furious, but you should try.

I don't think Plan B, separation, is anywhere on your horizon right now. But Surviving an Affair gives a good overview of both Plan A and Plan B.

Here is a link to it: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Thanks for the info. I have a new question if anyone has time to answer...

After D-day I told my wife in no uncertain terms that she was to have absolutely no contact with her 'friend' across the street. I didn't understand the level that they had connected and hoped that I stopped it early enough. She gave him a journal with many of her thoughts and also a Stuffed bear.

Once I found out about this I had to have these things back. Maybe it is a guy thing... I am not sure. To me these represented part of my wife. He was 'snuggling' with something that should not have been his.

This is when I contacted him(from work). I told him calmly that the bear and all other materials were going to be returned to our porch with in an hour and that he was to never have contact with my family again or I would contact the police.

He hung up with me shortly after I said police but not before he said,'I'll see you later... click'

Being at work and concerned for my families safety since he lives across the street I contacted my wife. She knew I was going to contact him but didn't know when. I told her what had happened and she was rather upset at me. She told me that she would have contacted him to get the bear back that I should not have gotten involved. She asked me if she could call him to make sure that he wasn't going to do anything stupid.

I said ok...(I know, I know) I was concerned about them and wanted her safe. She was to call him and tell him to have no contact. I tried to call her right back. Busy signal... 10 minutes later... Busy signal. I am going nuts at work so I call our landlord's wife (They also live across the street) to make sure my w and family are ok.

I finally get through 45 minutes after I had first hung up with her. Seems she had a few questions to ask him about the police record that a friend found about him. Most wasn't too bad except the 4th degree sexual assault of a minor. Needless to say I don't want this guy anywhere near anyone. 45 minutes was all it took him to convince her that everything bad said about him was just a misunderstanding. She fell under his spell again. Only I didn't know this right away.

I got the bear but sadly he had destroyed all the letters and journals that she had written. How could I prove it one way or another? Anyway. We had the bear back. I thought about destroying it but W convinced me that it was a perfectly good stuffed animal and didn't need to be destroyed.

2 months later on this past Monday some events had been building. We had a major arguement. During this lovely time I found out that she had taken the bear and secretly had been snuggling with it whenever she felt down or depressed. Because I had forced her... Yes she said forced her to think about him it had reopened the wounds that had been healing. So she latched onto the bear... Needless to say she had refallen for this guy. Her phone call with him showed her that 20 other people that warned her about this guy were all wrong. She knew/knows him so much better then all of us. We were judging him because of his past.

We got past this argument but she wouldn't give me the bear. She hid it because she didn't want me to destroy it. I let it go for the time being. Tuesday rolls around and she wasn't feeling good so I laid down with her at 9:00am just help her get some sleep. Our youngest son and a play mate were in the livingroom. She slept for a little bit and woke up. We talked for a little while and I started to fall asleep myself. I woke up 30 minutes later. Something startled me. I went in to the living room to see a 4 and 5 year old trashing the room like only kids this age can. I called out and my W was no where to be found. All her jackets were here and it was cold. I got the boys dressed and went to look for her. I found her alright...

She waited until I fell asleep and she went across the street to her 'friends' apartment building. Sat on the steps holding onto the bear for dear life. She knocked on the door and put her head down. Her long hair over her head. He opened the door. Walked out. Turned around and went back into his apartment. There she sat for a bit until I found her. Lost to the world. Her special 'friend' rejected her. I finally had to put my 5 year old son in front of her and told her to tell him to his face that she didn't want him anymore. That this special 'friend' was more important. This jolted her enough to get her to stand. She held onto this bear and looked me in the eye and said no one wanted her. I said I did which is why I had come over to get her. She said she wanted me to punish her. I said fine. Give me the bear. We went back and forth for 15 minutes. Me telling her to give me the bear her saying no. Finally she threw it at me and said fine take it. This represents all my good feelings... what is left of my self esteem.

I took her home. Tried to talk her down. Eventually I gave her the bear and told her fine if it really has to do with yourself esteem I wouldn't take it. It magically dissappeared soon after. She has hidden it away again.

We are looking to move soon and I told her recently that I when we move we have a chance to start over. Epecially with him not being across the street anymore. That hasn't happened yet though. I wrote a letter today that basically said how I feel about the bear and that it shouldn't follow us to out new life. I suggested she give it to me but I would not destroy it. I have a friend at work that works with a children's charity that sends toys to Africa. What better way to get some good out of this. Maybe the bear can make someone happy.

Was it wrong for me to ask for this in the first place? To get it back from him? I didn't demand the bear in the letter today. I left it as her choice. She said she would get it for me but it wasn't here right now. That was hours ago and now she's in bed. Am I making a big deal out of something seemly so small. Or is it as important as I think it is. Sometimes I feel paranoid yet how will I ever break this if she holds onto something that she said 'smells' like him.

Sigh