OK.

I was asked this as a question. I did not know the answer. I have been considering the topic because of my WW. I have done a study on this and don't like what I see.

In Christian circles, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the key to gaining entrance to the kingdom of heaven. The question is - can that entrance be lost?

Translation I used for all scriptures is NIV.

===================
Proponents that salvation and entrance to heaven, once accepted, is from grace and eternal cite Romans 8 as support for that view. Here are some passages.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [2] because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This clearly sounds as if salvation is eternal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This seems to say that those who HAVE accepted the faith, the truth, WILL live in accordance with what the Spirit desires. One has to ask, is professed salvation NOT evidenced by works the same as real salvation? Was a person who claimed salvation then commits adultery REALLY saved in the first place? If not, then which of us could REALLY be saved, for in God's eyes, sin is sin. Why would SOME sins (albeit large ones) lead us to believe salvation is in question, but smaller ones would not?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RO 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one is a little strange. Why can't the sinful mind NOT submit to God's law? Does it mean by sinful mind "one who lacks salvation?" So an unsaved person doing good works in accordance with God's law is not submitting to it purely from lack of knowledge of it? Or maybe that point is moot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RO 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is putting to death the misdeeds of the body which results in living (heaven) the acceptance of Christ as savior? Like some one-time thing? To me it reads that it is something that one must do over and over again. Doesn't sound like salvation. Supposedly Romans 8 supports the eternal salvation/entrance to heaven line. THIS verse doesn't sound like it. This sounds like if we don't continually put to death the misdeeds of the body, we CAN die (lose heaven).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RO 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This almost sounds like salvation is predestined. Where is the free-will in that? But look at the sequence from vs 30.

predestined => called => justified => glorified

That "called" part. Doesn't mean WE have to answer the call, and I think that is where the free-will comes in to play.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RO 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? [36] As it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So here is a lot of bad stuff that we CAN conquer. But it does not necessarily mean we WILL. In fact, we can't without the salvation, God's help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RO 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, [39] neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is strong evidence that we CANNOT be separated from our salvation. But does "anything else" include FREE-WILL, or the choice to separate from God? All the things listed sound more like EXTERNAL attacks. No one or no thing can force us from God, but I don't see where this rules out that we cannot REJECT Him.


NCWalker's Comment:
I can see where this chapter alludes to the fact that once gained, salvation is eternal. But I do not necessarily think it CLEARLY states that is so.
================
Proponents that suggest that salvation CAN be lost. That once gained, the entrance to heaven can be thrown away, cite Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This very clearly sounds like that once you know the way, if you fall, you lose heaven. And for good reason. It disgraces the sacrifice that Jesus already made. But what constitutes a "fall?" A personal long distance call from work (if it is against company policy) IS stealing. One of the commandments, last time I checked. Granted adultery causes much more pain, but who are we to set up the DEGREE of the infraction? This sounds kind of harsh. I don't think anyone will make it if this is the case. Unless "fall away" only means rejecting the teachings or the salvation, and does not mean sinning.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEB 6:10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. [11] We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. [12] We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds like diligence and effort secures your salvation. Not lack of mistakes, but effort. ALMOST like works. But I don't think it is works, I think it is EFFORT. God knows our hearts, but I don't think that is enough. If our heart is right, but we can't bring our will to work IN ACCORD with what our heart feels, where is the diligence? This verse doesn't preclude mistakes. Fits in with the "not unjust" part well. But it sounds as if wanton disregard of what you know will not "make your hope sure."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The entire chapter 10 up until this point talks of how the "old school" sacrifices (bulls, rams, etc.) were not sufficient. And that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. These verses sound like if we ignore the knowledge, there is no sacrifice left. But is the requirement of knowledge pure intellectual knowledge, or is it acceptance and belief? Either way, this seems pretty clear that one CAN fall and lose entrance to the kingdom of heaven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEB 10:35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. [36] You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. [37] For in just a very little while,

"He who is coming will come and will not delay.
HEB 10:38 But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him."

HEB 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This really sounds like shrinking back from the knowledge results in destruction (hell).

NCWalker's Comment:
This seems pretty clear. Whereas the Romans 8 stuff had some ambiguity. Granted they are somewhat at odds, but a pastor of mine once said it is foolish to get caught up in a biblical contradiction between two views when one is clear and the other ambiguous. Guess I will ask him what he thinks about this. Second, it almost sounds like once saved, a severe enough sin cannot be atoned for in God's eyes. Due to the dishonoring of his Son for a second sacrifice. But yet, if the sacrifice was perfect, it would atone for ANY sin. That is repented for with a broken heart and contrite spirit perhaps. I just don't know, I am very confused at this point.
=======
Some say that salvation IS forever, and one who sins greatly after being saved was not really saved in the first place. To me, that is something of a cop out, but that is my logic and thinking, not from the Spirit. Kind of like saying I have this driver's license and after I get it I run a red light. Does that mean my license was really never valid? But one must not forget that we are not promised to understand His ways.

Here are some more verses that go with the topic and some random comments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PHP 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The good work started in us (road to heaven) WILL be completed. But is this a promise from Him? What if WE don't want it to be completed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1JN 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. [19] They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is stating that true believers never leave the faith. Kind of supports the third theory. That the salvation of one who sins is in question. But notice that it doesn't rule out the possibility of losing salvation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LK 22:34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here, Peter actually DENIES Christ. Is that not the same as sinning AFTER knowledge of good and evil? Maybe not. Yet Peter becomes one of the greatest apostles and surely inherits the kingdom. HOWEVER, Jesus has not yet at this point sent the "comforter," the Holy Spirit, so is it possible for Peter to be born again through the fire baptism at this point? At first glance, it supports the "eternal salvation" view, but it is not as clear to me as Hebrews, which is the contrary opinion.

A study on-line said entrance to heaven was twofold.

1 - You MUST persevere until the end. God does not ask for perfect faith, but for real faith, which effects real, lasting change. Sounds like we can make mistakes, but must learn, grow, improve and try again, NOT walk away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">COL 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. [22] But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- [23] if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We must choose to and use our will to continue in our faith to gain heaven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. [6] If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

1JN 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, more verses that support EFFORT on our part is required.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1JN 3:3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

1JN 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. [5] But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. [6] No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And another verse indicating the need for choice and effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEB 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. [2] Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And another one.

2 - You WILL persevere until the end if Christ is in you.
So it will take effort, but because of God's grace and Christ living in us, we CAN exert the effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JN 6:38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I (Jesus) shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. [40] For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a great verse - He will not lose any of us. His strength is complete.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JN 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again a verse saying God will protect us until the end. But notice it doesn't say you can't JUMP out of His hand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PHP 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, [13] for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another verse telling us God works in us to act according to His will.

OK. So it is clear to enter the kingdom we have to WANT to. And He will give us the strength to do it.

But in the end, it seems that there are clear verses stating that we can reject the gift. The ones supporting a permanent gift are less clear.

So now I am really scared for my WW. Can anyone point me to a Scripture that guarantees heaven after TRUE salvation accepted? Should I be worried? Or will her earlier acceptance of her Savior be enough? Sure doesn't sound like it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

NCWalker

CN, I haven't read all your post; surprise, surprise! But my first reaction based on some very out of date training is - there is supposed to be only one unforgivable sin. Sinning against the Spirit. But, well, I don't really know what that means ........I don't think your WWs sin is sophisticated enough to fit that category?!?

an

IMHO I believe it can't be lost but, If she turns away and rebukes God the will Lose it. The sin of a A will not couse her to lose salvation because she can truely confess to God(not man) and ask for forgiveness. She must first come out of her sin and ask forgivness though. No this doesn't mean she was never saved. It means she is human and made a mistake. We are all human and sin. Can you think of a time when you had a thought of a woman in a sexual way. That is adaultry according to Jesus. I did not get to read the entire post but I will go back when I get time. Also not to make you feel bad or start a arguement but I would like to let you know that the NIV had many more errors in the translation then the KJV. The NIV left out some passages also so please consider looking at the KJV. I hope God blesses your intire family.

NCW,

I don't post over here on GQII often anymore. I lurk sometimes, though. This post really caught my eye. I know your fears. I struggle with the same fears (I think I have a lot of those verses highlighted in my bible). Although I am a currently Southern Baptist who is taught that salvation is forever, I myself am not completely sure (I was raised in the Church of Christ, many of whom believe salvation can be gained and lost).

I don't believe you lose salvation every time you sin and that you keep having to ask forgiveness to get it back. That would be saying that Jesus' blood wasn't enough to cover all sin the first time. I do believe if you sin, you need to repent and ask forgiveness to restore fellowship with God.

I also don't believe that once we are saved we are automatically sinless. It's a growth period. But if we're not seeing growth, I think we should be concerned about whether salvation was real in the first place.

As for the verse you quoted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I'm all wet, but I've always thought that one was fairly clear. I took it to mean if you are told what it takes to be saved and you choose to reject that knowledge, then there is no hope for you. Nothing else will cover your sins and get you to Heaven.

The other verses you quoted are more ambiguous.

Your statement about if someone commits adultery, does this lose their salvation. I hope and pray it doesn't and am counting on that, because if it does, I had just as well give up all hope and do away with myself (and I say that with all seriousness--if I felt there was no hope for me, and that I was destined to Hell--I would have nothing to even live for). I was a WS many years ago. Not a lengthy, painful, drawn out affair, but infidelity nevertheless. I am very sorry and have repented and am extraordinarily careful now. No need for details here--they're on D/D. But I was a Christian when it happened. I'm not sure if I'm right or not, but my interpretation is that the statement "no one who continues to sin" doesn't mean we will NEVER sin again if we're saved, but that we will not continue in sin. That's where I'm struggling with the lengthy, ongoing affair that ended my M, and the fact that my XH is living with and being intimate with the OW who is still legally M. At this point I've accepted that he's not with me, but I am desparately afraid for his eternity! It has left me feeling empty and depressed and almost panicked more than once. I continue to pray that God will work in his life. I don't know what else to do.

And don't EVEN get me started on the predestination thing. I analyzed that one to death a couple years ago and dropped 15 pounds of my already thin frame because I started thinking "What if God didn't choose me? What if I want in the worst way to follow him, but it's my destiny to go to Hell?" Then I found the verses about those who seek him will find him and I decided if I was truly "lost", I wouldn't be seeking him.

But I'll stop there. I'm not going to look up all my verses tonight. I'll check back in tomorrow, as I'm sure people will have some good advice for something we are obviously both struggling with.

((((NCW))))))


LL

NC:

Have much info on this at home and will post what I have tonight.

FR

All,

Please do not be offended by this, but if you can't back up what you are saying with a Scripture reference, don't bother saying it. It won't change my opinion (which I am desperately trying to change) if it is not backed up in the Word.

No. Scratch that. For the sake of other interested parties, go ahead and opine if you wish. Just understand that NCW personally will not pay much heed to the point without the Scripture.

---------
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MT 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. [31] And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. [32] Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">anyname, How does one sin against the Spirit? By disobeying the Spirit's urgings. A Spirit filled Christian (you'll just have to trust me on this) who was strongly walking would GREATLY feel pressure to not have an affair when the moment to disrobe arose. But this also says blaspheme, not sin. I will look this one up in a few different Xlations. So no, I don't think this covers my WWs sin (thankfully).

Notice I made the point earlier that Peter denied Christ. This verse says that is OK (or at least will be forgiven). It also says every sin will be forgiven. So I think that says much.

I get saved => I commit a great sin (because I ignored God/Spirit) => My heart is still focused on God (confession, repentance, etc.) => I inherit the kingdom.

I can see that scenario at work. And it makes sense. However,

I get saved => I TURN from God => I commit a great sin => I do NOT turn back to God => I die an untimely death before I turn back and repent.

In light of the verses I have looked up, I am not so sure this individual will inherit the kingdom. I WANT to be sure, but just haven't found the irrefutable argument. I have found arguments to the contrary in the verses above. In fact, one of them scares the heck out of me, and it bears repeating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is pretty clear. But what does "fall away" mean? JUST sin? I don't think so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">REV 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. [8] But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. [9] The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Satan FOUGHT with God and lost his place. I would suppose that a sin after salvation is forgivable unless one is fighting with God to continue it. Is ignoring God fighting with Him? I just don't know. What I do know is who in their right mind would want to risk it. And a word of warning about my using Satan's fall as an analogy - Satan is not like us, the inheritance was not meant for him. So the "rules" may be different for him.

-------

RHM,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MT 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' [28] But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [29] If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. [30] And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the point of this is that we ARE going to be tempted into sin and when the TEMPTATION (the thought) arises, we are to fervently reject it. Embellished by the gouging of the eye and lopping off of the hand. Sort of follows with my servant's heart thread. Where the head goes, the heart will follow. If it leads towards lustful thoughts, get rid of the thought and repent, for adultery will sure to follow.

But I agree with your sentiment that a Christian can rebuke, (or reject or fight with) God and lose salvation. Probably to not be regained. Seems that way from the verses presented here. Would REALLY like to see some to the contrary, but I have not been able to find them yet.

------

LL,

From what I have seen I agree with you. I don't think sin leads to loss of salvation. I think fighting with God does. And when he presses it upon a sinner's heart to confess and repent and they do NOT, is that fighting with Him?

I personally don't risk it. At one of the best churches I ever attended, our first time there was stunning. The Pastor's wife was speaking and confessing to the entire church how she had been a gossip and sown seeds of discord among the congregation. She was up there in tears actually calling people by name and confessing. It was absolutely awe inspiring. Know what? She wasn't taking any chances with her salvation. Of course, her station warranted that effort. I do think as you grow in faith, you are held more accountable. And I think God is looking for growth.

Real faith effects real positive change and growth. Anything else, IMO, is lip-service. Just as we feel about our children, God is most pleased when His children learn and grow and finish better than when we started.

Your specific case (from the details you supplied) does not scare me like my WW. You seemed repentant and confessed it. My WW has MANY friends (from her earlier, stronger walk) calling her on her present behavior. Know what she is doing? Enlarging the breadth and scope of lies because she doesn't want to stop. She has a HUGE support network who is just waiting to help her. And she holds them at bay with deceit. Sounds like fighting God to me. That's why I am so scared for her.

----
Fish, looking forward to it.

NCW

NC,

So, are you alluding to apostasy? It seems, from here, that you are dancing around it..not quite saying it..but all of your descriptions seem to lead there.

Noodle

Sorry noodle, Had to look up what that meant.

apostasy: Etymology: Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo- + histasthai to stand -- more at STAND
1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty :

I guess I am. From what I am seeing, the Christian line of "once saved, always saved" is not necessarily true. I am finding plenty of verses that say if you reject God after salvation you can LOSE salvation. And a few of them seem to indicate it is for good. No second chances on that one.

What is unclear, is where is the line (with God) where we reject Him? Surely it cannot be with the comitting of the sin.

IMVHO, based on what I have read so far, if we sin, are called on it, and have no repentence, we are at serious risk of losing entrance to heaven.

We can play games like a WS WOULD have repented within the month, but gets run down by a bus tommorrow, does that person get in? I don't know. I know God would know if the WS WAS going to actually repent. And maybe that in and of itself is enough.

Short answer: Yes, my head is currently thinking apostasy includes giving up entrance to heaven.

NC - great study!!! We should get a mini study group going!

I understand your concern over your wife but if you think about it, we all sin - big time! In God's eyes, murder is the same as a lie, is the same as adultery, is the same as theft and so on.

So then do you think we are all in trouble or is it because we decide to come back to the Lord that means we are okay? Arrrgh! I'm at work and can't really contribute much! I need scripture but I also need to plan an offsite meeting! LOL

My hubby has some good stuff on this subject, I'll see if I can find it later.

Carol

NCW,

It is interesting that you bring this up..because it is an issue I have wrestled with for several years myself [I also did not grow up Christian..and as such..have a very difficult assimilating into the culture].

I have come to the conclusion that this is one of those "grey" areas to which there is no cut and dry answer. One faith filled, learned person will think one way..another differently..both can back it up scripturally.

My position therefore, is that while it is not a certainty..it is a possibility..so toeing the line [which was never an acceptable response to salvation anyway] is a risky endeavor manifold.

If one desires to toe the line..I might suspect that their salvation experience could be false.

I still wrestle though.

Noodle

CH,

No. I don't think sin is enough. Some of the verses I posted (and plenty other I haven't) SAY we are not perfect.

I guess the first thing is you would have to agree that rejection of God CAN cause you to lose salvation. Based on my supplied verses. That is where MY head is at right now.

THEN - what does this rejection look like?

Let's consider murder. Since we all know that is wrong. I don't mean killing in self-defense, I mean murder.

----
Hypothetical Scenario: My son is being bullied in school. As are other kids. The kid doing the bullying is not responding to discipline from the administration. They call in the dad to find that he is uninterested in raising his child appropriately. In fact, he is actually leading the child astray because he is bitter and feels might makes right. So I feel that the kid would be better off with a different dad and make plans to kill him.

Case 1: As a saved Christian, I know murder is wrong. And his Spirit is in me urging me not to do this. But I kill this guy anyway. Have I just rejected God and lost salvation? Would repentance after the fact change your opinion?

Case 2: My son comes home with teeth missing from a recent encounter with the bully. That puts me over the edge. Even though I am a saved Christian and know this is wrong, my rage is overcoming my ear for the Spirit and I truthfully don't hear him. I then gun the dad down. Afterwards, I am repentent and confess what I have done. Have I just rejected God then and lost my salvation?

Case 3: I head out to kill the guy, but am waffling. The Lord arranges it so that my pastor, or some elder, runs into me on the way. I reluctanlty tell him what I am about to do, and he is a strong witness to NOT kill the other dad. So the urgings of God are clear - from a source not "inside" me. I listen, but ignore him and do it anyway. How about then? Did I reject God?

Case 4: Let's now say I have COMITTED the murder, in any of the cases above. It is done with, and the sin is weighing heavy on my heart. I know I will face civil punishment, but those who love me tell me to repent as they are concerned for my soul. I tell the "Screw God, I did it and would do it again. It was the right thing to do. People like that shouldn't be allowed to live." Have I rejected God and my salvation then? What if after sitting on death row for a few years I THEN repent? In light of the verse above that says you CANNOT repent once you reject?

NCWalker

Perhaps it would help to look to those who DID reject then ultimately repent..or not. Perhaps not a direct answer..but an example?

David for a start. Can you think of any others?

Noodle

noodle,

I agree wholeheartedly. I mean, why would you RISK it? But yet my WW is. Does not compute.

One thing is clear - God is merciful. And it may not "feel right" to our logical sensibilites.

But access to heaven is digital. You either go, or you don't.

Look at murder again. Say there is a baby with a monster of a dad who is really rough with the kid and he gets brain damaged by shaken baby syndrome. This kid, say when he is 10, makes a mistake because his faculties are not fully present and kills one of his siblings. Knowledge of the gospel or no, I would think BOTH these kids would make it in to heaven. I may be wrong. But that falls in line with God's mercy.

Then you have the guy who is given the opportunity, maybe serveral times, to hear the Good News and just outright rejects it. He has a sad life, with no motivation to do good. He has not been preached the gospel. And he becomes a mass murderer. He is NOT going into heaven because he did not accept salvation.

{Edited above for wording. Implied something I did not intend. Thanks, WAT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> }

Probably most people who kill fall between these two extremes. Means there is a line or lines drawn by which they are sorted. Where are they? I was TAUGHT that it was salvation, pure and simple. But the brain damaged person is not afforded that choice. A merciful, just God is going to hold that against him?

I don't know. I may never know. But it is clear that the possibility is clearly there and THAT is scary enough to keep me on the straight and narrow.

This really hit home when my oldest son asked me about it. He has figured out what is going on and did his own study. He quoted me

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MAT 15:12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides.[e] If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

15Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’ ” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And he seems to feel that his mother is now lost. I am trying to comfort him, but am not so sure myself now.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> WHAT REALLY BURNS ME IS THAT A NOBLE, LOVING, KIND, GOD-FEARING 13 YEAR OLD BOY HAS TO EVEN BE BURDENED BY THINGS SUCH AS THIS SIMPLY BECAUSE HIS SUPPOSEDLY ADULT MOTHER CAN'T SEEM TO CONTROL HER ACTIONS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

NCWalker (sometimes wishing the 2x4s were not virtual)

{Edited to add postscript}

PS - Time to brag: My son went on a school trip that involved an overnight stay recently. At the hotel room, he and another boy led a third boy BACK who had strayed and a fourth boy TO the Lord (salvation). And he did it saddled with all this junk at home. I am so PROUD of him. He is truly a light to me.

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

noodle,

Excellent point about David. One of the greats who actually spoke to God. And not only comitted adultery, but sent the OWH into danger on the hope that he would be killed. Talk about horrid.

But I would point out...

His actions DID curse his blood line for 20 generations, even though he was forgiven.

This occurred BEFORE the perfect sacrifice of the Son. So I am not sure it happened under the same set of rules we are to go by. Would need a real scholar to confirm that one.

I will pursue that line of reasoning and see what I can come up with.

NCW

NCW,

It's not the "can't" it's the "won't".

It is the overt manifest declaration "I love my gratification, more than you, more than DS, more than God".

The line between can't and won't is also blurry..scripturally as well, as I'm sure you know.

I'd like to mentiuon that I also disagree with the sin = sin concept. How can I believe this when I have read the OT? Sure..all sin required sacrifice..but not at the same level..SOME sins required the BLOOD of the sinner..so as not to polute the LAND.

That's fairly extreme..fairly upfront.

So, Jesus paid for all..but does this make all equivilent, I don't know.

It does bring the line into question even further, you know? I have more questions and no answers.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ncwalker:
<strong>In his sad, secular life he becomes a mass murderer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A bit over the top, don't you think?

WAT

WAT,

Sorry. The comma is misleading. I am trying to show two extremes to capture everyone in between. One extreme goes to heaven, one does not, thus there must be a decision making circumstance or circumstances in there somewhere.

When I said "sad, secular" I was not implying that a secular life was sad. I meant my hypothetical murderer had a sad life (no reason to do good) and a secular life (had not been told the gospel). Should have said "sad and secular".

I love my faith. But I absolutely do not hold that against anyone who chooses not to have one. People can be a joy no matter what they believe.

NCW

NC - I am terribly afraid for my WH. He had been a strong Christian for over 30 years. Now he is a unrepentant adulterer.

Since you want scripture - check out these -

But as for the cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and decievers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfer, which is the second death. Rev.21:8

and

Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitues nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cor.6:9,10

and

That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1Cor.6:11

To me it seems very clear that an unrepentent adulterer is lost.

I understand your explanation and I am not interested in having a tussle, but I wasn't referring to the "sad" issue as much as the mass murderer inference. Clearly, one's faith or lack thereof has nothing to do with right and wrong. Speaking of mass murderers, just ask the fellow congregants of the BTK killer in Wichita about this.

You don't need extremes to capture everyone. They're everywhere across the spectrum.

WAT

OK WAT. Got it.

I picked a murderer because murder seems to be a more black and white issue than adultery. (Though it should not be.)

And I am not talking about avoidance of civil punishment for a civil crime.

My example is two murderers (clearly wrong civilly AND biblically) and do they inherit the kingdom of heaven. Biblically, one can serve civil punishment and STILL enter the kingdom. The death row inmate who accepts salvation before he sits in the chair comes to mind.

You could really wrap up any sin, where one has knowledge of the wrong and one does not and make the point, so maybe a mass murderer is over the top.

NCW