believer - I empathize completely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> To me it is akin a child dying before they get to live life. It is just so unecessary. You try and understand and hope the old Rom 8:28, but you just can't. - NCW

NCW,

I'm glad you started this thread. It's something that weighs on my my mind about my XH. I'm not sure what conclusion I will come to (and in actuality, no one knows for sure but the Lord what is in my XH's or your WW's heart). We can only base our assumptions on their outward actions. But here are some verses to ponder on:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. Mark 10:15 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why did I pick this verse? What do little children do? They trust--blindly--without asking for proof. I think this says we have to put our trust in Jesus--nothing we try to do will ever be enough. We have to just trust him, like a child would. Maybe our WS/XS's are doing this?

And here's where I really struggle with whether there are actually people who have no chance of being saved (i.e., election, or predestination):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him. John 6:65 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--or--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--- John 15:16 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--or--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(That is probably one of the verses I have the most difficulty with because while I don't want to believe predestination (i.e., some people have no choice and are doomed regardless) exists, that verse says different. Makes it hard to pray sometimes, because I feel like it doesn't matter--that what is to be will be regardless of my prayers.)

What if my XH was never really saved? What if "election" does exist and God didn't choose him?

However, if one really IS saved:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This seems to say to me that if you really are saved, nothing (including Satan) can change that.

But then this seems to speak of losing one's salvation:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:6</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1 Cor. 15:2 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does this mean that if we believe we are saved, but don't hold to what God says we are to do, that we are deluding ourselves? (My XH firmly believes that Jesus' blood is saving him, yet he has lived totally 'worldly' life since he accepted Christ full of addictions, porn, affairs, etc.) Or is he really stronger in his faith that me, because he believes it and yet I struggle with salvation sometimes?

And while I believe based on all I read that we are to die to our sinful nature and live as God wants us to, ultimately it's about where our trust is (and not just words we say, but what our heart really holds as true):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and be found in him, not having a rightousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. Phil 3:9 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We aren't saved by all the good we do or by following all the right rules. We are saved by faith in Jesus' blood sacrifice.

And before we simply look at adulterers as possibly losing their salvation, lets look at this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander and filthy language from your lips. Col 3:8 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know infidelity is seen as a HUGE sin (and rightfully so) but to constantly live with these other things in our lives also leaves in question for whom we are really living, I think (and I say this as I to struggle with issues such as anger and gossip). My hope is in the fact that I see, over the long haul, an improvement from who I used to be to who I am now. But I have taken a couple very nasty falls (and they did include infidelity).

But here's a tough one when applied to those actively disobeying with no sign of turning back:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. James 1:22 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If our WS say "we're saved" but continue doing whatever they want, aren't they deluding themselves?

This sort of goes against the "once saved, always saved" theory, but it in my eyes DOES support that even if someone fall away, it is possible for them to be brought back and forgiven:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My brothers (LL's interpretation "fellow believers"), if one of you should wander away from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. James 5:19 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But here's a damning one for people who fall away that really scares me (and was this me 10 years ago--I pray that God has truly allowed me to come back because I have pleaded for forgiveness from Him and have repented):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And here's another that makes me question "always saved":

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 2 Peter 3:17</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And one that questions whether the salvation experience is really "real" for some people, or whether it's just mouthing the words:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in darkness (LL's interpretation "in sin"), we lie and do not live by the truth. 1 John 1:6</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And here is the group of verses that I read over and over to assure myself that I am a believer. It's been of great help in that area, but has provided much sadness when applied to XH's life (both before and during his A):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. 1 John 2:3-6 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am fully aware that I don't always walk as Jesus did, but I WANT to (most of the time), and I see growth. But I don't see growth or a desire to live according to the Word in my XH, although he claims to be saved. This is very painful for me to analyze, because the results I get from my analysis do not reassure me of his salvation.

And here is a verse totally unrelated to the above, but one for you NCW, me and anyone else struggling with worry over things. I had it posted on the side of my computer monitor for years. We can worry all we want (which by the way is also sin), but our worry will change nothing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. 1 Peter 5:7 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have to somehow be able to let go of our worry and give it to God and do our best to be good examples and good witnesses to others, letting God work in us and through us. I struggle with worry and overanalyzing more than anything else in my Christian life at this point. And I've spent a LOT of time worrying about the eternity of my XH (and my children, who aren't living according to God's will either. NCW you are one VERY blessed man to have the son you have!)

In the end, I'm not sure I've done anything more than cause myself even more sorrow over what appears to currently be my XH in a lost situation. Do I think he can be redeemed (and your WW, too)? Yes! Does this mean that "once saved, always saved" isn't true? I'm not sure. Maybe it means they never really truly committed themselves to the Lord in the first place? Or maybe you can fall away.

I am not convinced that if they live in a continually unrepentent state and would happen to suffer an untimely death or the Lord would choose to come now, that they would be saved. But then again, salvation is a gift from God--it's not by our works.

So I'm still confused...

LL

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL, That was some good stuff. I will have to study the verses you posted and give you my thoughts. I am busy today, so it might be a few. REALLY liked the one from Peter about casting your cares. - NCW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In Christian circles, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the key to gaining entrance to the kingdom of heaven. The question is - can that entrance be lost?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC: This has been a hot topic for me for a year now. After intensive research; I am mostly undecided, but leaning toward the belief that we can indeed lose our salvation. There are scriptures that validate my opinion (see below). The argument is clearly that those who commit the mentioned sins against commandment were actually never saved in the first place regardless of works, deed, faith, etc. That position borders on a judgment that I do not wish to make about anyone. (Whether someone is truly saved or not!)

Ephesians 5:5-7 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person–such a man is an idolater–has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7Therefore do not be partners with them.

Colossians 3:5-7 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[a] 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.

Mat 10:33 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

Ezek 33:13 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.

Ezek 18:24 24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

1 Cor. 15:2 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Now, my question back to you: If one can in fact lose salvation but believes they have been saved - and commits a sin spoken of above, can they be "re-saved"?

Going a step further; how about those who are saved and choose to "lead astray" others for their own personal agenda (adultery). In my case; OM was a deacon and convinced WXW that "God wants us to be happy - that is what grace is all about". IMO; this guy is a false prophet. (Not minimizing WXW's role in A!) Now consider the following scriptures:

Gal. 1:8-9 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

Jude 3 3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Jude 4 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Jude 12-13 12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm–shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted–twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Jude 1919These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Rev. 21:8 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

If I repeated anyones post or information; I apologize. I had this information filed together and did not want to leave any detail out.

FR

Doesn't it strike anyone how all of the "conditions" presented in these scriptures only proves our absolute, utter hoplessness? There is NOT ONE person on earth, according to the scriptures, who is NEVER any of those things to at least some degree...in some way, shape, or form. Who of us can say we have never lied, been greedy (taking the biggest cookie, even) or idolized something other than God?
I don't think any of us stand a chance of "keeping" our salvation if the scriptures are talking about life after death. I have wondered if what it IS talking about might be the quality of life on earth, right here and now, that is what is affected. Sinning is akin to death. I mean, I have felt since my affair that the "wages" of that sin feels an awful lot like death. The quality of my life has suffered enormously. I have lost a certain amount of "life" as a consequence of being disobedient. But what about after my physical death? Jesus died to pay for the sins I commit DURING my physical life, but only so that I can continue to live AFTER physical death. At least that is how I see it. He doesn't promise to let me "get away with sin" during my life on earth.
If the adulteress that was about to be stoned to death was in danger of losing her salvation, wouldn't Jesus have told her so? He simply told her to "go and sin no more". He didn't say "Go and sin no more, or else!"
Wow, this is all very confusing. I just think maybe all of those scriptures you speak of serve to show us that there is NO WAY OUT, AROUND, OR UNDER sin except through Christ, lest anyone is tempted to think otherwise.
NCW....I don't believe that God wants us to serve and obey out of FEAR....instilling fear into someone to get them to obey is manipulation, and where's the free will in fear-induced behavior?
Just something to think about.


NOW

Hi NOW:

This topic is probably sensitive to some on here; but I do not feel it was NC’s intent for this to happen. I feel that he opened this topic for discussion due to worrying about his WW and concern for other families - which is also why I’ve studied it for more than a year now. Despite all the pain that my WXW has caused family & friends by having her A, I shudder at the very real possibility that she may be doing so in exchange for her salvation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't it strike anyone how all of the "conditions" presented in these scriptures only proves our absolute, utter hoplessness? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure I agree with hopelessness. I do feel that there is a distinct difference between “conditions” and “commandments” though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is NOT ONE person on earth, according to the scriptures, who is NEVER any of those things to at least some degree...in some way, shape, or form. Who of us can say we have never lied, been greedy (taking the biggest cookie, even) or idolized something other than God? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you’re referring to sin in general; I agree, we all sin. However, as there are clearly sins that are more “wrong” than other sins we should concentrate on the subject of adultery as stated in the last paragraph of NC’s original post. Adultery is discussed openly and abundantly in the Bible; and always as a tragic mistake. So it is unfair to include adultery with – say; shoplifting or overeating or "taking the big cookie". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sinning is akin to death. I mean, I have felt since my affair that the "wages" of that sin feels an awful lot like death. The quality of my life has suffered enormously. I have lost a certain amount of "life" as a consequence of being disobedient... He doesn't promise to let me "get away with sin" during my life on earth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These words bring up an interesting point. If you were saved prior to your A, then certainly you knew the potential consequences to your actions. However, as we understand from MB about the “addiction” romantic love”, etc. WS’s still CHOOSE to cheat. IOW; the potential gain (A, romantic feelings, sex, etc.) is more important than the potential loss (M, family, respect, sin, etc.) Basically, all WS’s roll the dice. And as in rolling the dice, you will win some and lose some – meaning that the “wages of sin” and “enormous suffering” that you discussed are the trade-off for the “soulmate-love-feelings” that the A brought you. All of “life” has positive and negative, action-reaction, choice-consequence. All of us know this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what about after my physical death? Jesus died to pay for the sins I commit DURING my physical life, but only so that I can continue to live AFTER physical death. At least that is how I see it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOW: Please think about the real message here. Basically, you’re saying that Jesus died so that a person can commit all the sins they choose to and no matter what else happens; they’re going to heaven. They might have to put up with some discomfort here on earth, but they’re going to heaven after they die. Isn’t that like saying once a man is “saved”, he can rape and kill all the children he desires to without fear of losing salvation? And if he’s manipulated his conscience enough while still on earth; the rapes and killings are no big deal to him. Besides, no matter how many little girls he rapes, he knows he’s going to heaven sooner or later.

I feel that God knew there would be those who felt this way and to help prevent this mindset; God made specific instructions to us about those subjects of most importance to him. Some of the instructions (scriptures) clearly say that even if you’ve been saved; and you choose a particular action… that you may not go to heaven.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the adulteress that was about to be stoned to death was in danger of losing her salvation, wouldn't Jesus have told her so? He simply told her to "go and sin no more". He didn't say "Go and sin no more, or else!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God did say “go and sin no more, or else.” In Ezek 33:13 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. Which says if the adulteress commits adultery again, God will remember her latest adultery AND her previous adulteries.

1 Cor. 15:2 2By this gospel (“Go and sin no more”) you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. (“or else”)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, this is all very confusing. I just think maybe all of those scriptures you speak of serve to show us that there is NO WAY OUT, AROUND, OR UNDER sin except through Christ, lest anyone is tempted to think otherwise. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are a believer, then these words are correct. “Through Christ” means obeying the scriptures.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FEAR....instilling fear into someone to get them to obey is manipulation, and where's the free will in fear-induced behavior?
Just something to think about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL. There are many, many scriptures stating that we should fear God and most offer a positive message when we do “fear” God. In the Bible; the word “fear” actually means extreme respect . Can you remember when you were a small child and “feared” your Dad? You weren’t actually afraid of your Dad, because you were most secure when he was around. You “ extremely respected ” your Dad and some of those feelings seemed like fear. You cannot fear someone and gain security from them as well.

As to your sitch: It is my strong belief that God is compassionate and will forgive you and include you in heaven - but only when you have repented, made restitution, been forgiven and live as a Christian for the rest of your days. Based on the scriptures; to consider "rolling the dice" again would probably hurt those chances. I hope this helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FR

fishracer,

I do believe you have some valid points. Although I am a member of a Southern Baptist church (who believe "once saved, always saved"), I struggle.

However, the question I have is this:

Are you saying that if you are saved, and then you commit adultry (say more than one time in my case), that God will longer forgive you? That your chances are gone?

I am looking for truthful opinions--don't be afraid to answer.

I've held to the hope that since I repented, that I have salvation through Christ. I can't change my past. I wish like everything I could. Is my chance it eternity with God lost? Am I doomed to the lake of fire?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I've held to the verse that says "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Sorry, can't remember scripture ref.) What if there is no salvation for me?

While adultery (and lust, and idolatry) are grave sins, I didn't see them as the unpardonable sin.

LL

And the bible talks along with adulterers, idolators, murderers, etc....about LIARS being lost.

Are there people who have never told a lie since the moment they were saved? I try VERY hard to be truthful, but I'm sure a lie has slipped out here or there, and if nothing else there are lies of omission.

Sometimes God's word seems so clear to me, and then I start analyzing and it gets very muddy.

Where does grace come in? We can't be saved by what we do. But then again, I agree that God's grace is not a license to sin as some make it. I fear for their salvation.

So hoping for responses on this one, as I'm feeling quite anxious tonight.

LL

From a little handbook given to me years ago... a treasure.

The Ways of God attributed to Saint Thomas Aquinas

~~~~~~~~~~~

God alone remits sins.
He alone knows the hour of judgment.
He alone knows the number of the elect.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think it is human vanity to try and guess who will and who will not be saved.

Pep

I too struggle with "once saved, always saved" because that is what I was raised to believe.

However, I waver now and then. I do believe that we can lose our salvation but only if we fully turn away from the Lord - basically renouncing Him and His authority.

Yes, we sin - every day. But those that truely believe repent and try not to do it again. Yes we fail, we we slip, even backslide - but we come back, and we keep trying.


I feel that when a person gives up trying, gives into the flesh, then they could very well lose their salvation. What I wonder about is what if a person turns himself/herself over to sin, and after a few years realizes the gravity of their mistakes, can they come back?

You know, it's all based on faith. We don't really know the answer, do we? That's where faith steps in. There are things that we are not meant to know, we are just to believe. Maybe this is one of them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I think what I was looking for (and suspect NC was looking for by starting this thread) was a reasonable assurance that perhaps there was hope for our WS/XS, because regardless what they have done or are doing, we still love them (I know I do) and can't bear the thought of them spending eternity suffering.

I don't think I've found that assurance, though I agree with Pepper that one shouldn't try and judge what is in another's heart or whether or not they are saved. That is the Lord's job.

The unfortunate outcome of this mini-study so far is that I am now falling back into what I term "the pit" as I question my own salvation. Is it Satan messing with me again because I'm a doubter? Or do I really have reason to worry? Since 9/11/01, I have been more committed to the Lord than ever in my life. It was a wake up call for me to think about where I was in life and what my priorities were. While I have a LOT of growing to do yet, I have seen what I thought was real growth, and I've felt a peace for the most part that I never had before about just trusting and knowing that Jesus would take me to Heaven.

I still don't think adultery is the unpardonable sin any more than lying or having sex before marriage are. But what if I'm wrong? What does that do to my hope? My assurance? My peace?

I don't find anything in the bible that says if you commit this sin or that sin you can't be forgiven. There is only one "unpardonable sin" and as was sort of mentioned above, I've always understood that to be turning your back on God and the saving blood of Jesus. There is no other way to Heaven except that one. God cannot forgive someone their sins who won't accept Jesus' sacrifice as the payment for them.

But coming back to a verse I posted before (that probably sort of got lost in my lengthy post):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My brothers, if one of you should wander away from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. James 5:19 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't this say that even if someone who is a believer falls away from the truth (falls into sin?), that it is possible for him/her to be saved from death (Hell?)?

Does this mean that there is still hope for me, and for others who have fallen into this type of sin and then expressed our sorrow and repented and turned from it? Does this mean that even though our spouses appear lost right now that there is always still hope for them so long as they live?

Anyone?

LL


But maybe I've been delusional.

Here's the scripture and reference I was speaking of earlier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
Romans 10:13
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't say "saved until they make a dire mistake".

So in order to sleep tonight at all, I will hold on as best I can to my feeble faith that this means that if we call on Jesus and ask him to save us, that he will because the promise is in the bible, and I believe it is God-inspired and without error.

And with that said, I guess we don't know, NC, what if anything your WW or my XH has prayed or is praying.

I believe we need to continue to pray for them. Today is especially hard for me because it is my XH's 40th birtday...one of the big ones...one that I should have been celebrating with him. It's what I've thought about for most of the day. Instead, all I can do is pray for him.

LL

How about this one?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Matt 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot be responsible for my wife's relationship with God. All I can do is be an encourager and trust God to handle it.

And...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Matthew 6:27 - And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Let me preface this by saying that I have no scriptural reference to back this up, but it is the conclusion that I've come to, even though it is rather simplistic.

We have no way of knowing what another's personal relationship with Jesus Christ actually is. Sure, we can look at behaviors and wonder about their salvation, but we have no way of really KNOWING.

That said, I have come to believe that there are two types of Christians. One is "head" Christians and the other is "heart" Christians. We have no way to differentiate between the two types in others, but I think that each and every one of us should look within ourselves and determine which we are.

"Head" Christian: When someone (after little, some, or a lot of thought) decides that he/she needs to beome a Christian. He/she professes faith, joins a church, and becomes an active participant. They may pray in private. However, they don't seem to grow spiritually, because they don't seem to look at their own lives for things they can change to better follow Christ. They don't seem to recognize the "small sins" they commit everyday...maybe because they just don't think about it. I think that even though these people mentally believe and accept tha Christ came to earth and died on the cross for our sins, they quite possibly never really develop a PERSONAL relationship with Christ. Maybe the best way to describe this type of Christian is to say that they've never been CONVICTED of their sins. Sort of like a WS who knows what they've done is wrong and apologize for it, but never actually feel the gut-wrenching remorse for their actions.

"Heart" Christians. I believe that these are the Christians who truly strive to live their lives for Christ, who are constantly seeking a closer relationship with Him, who examine their lives for any unresolved sins and repent and STOP their sinful behaviors with God's help.

Now, I don't know whether "head" Christians are actually saved in God's eyes or not. I'm sure they believe they are saved, but only God knows what's really in their hearts. It's entirely possible that "head" Christians are really just "Baby" Christians who don't understand how to grow in Christ.

We just never know. All we can do is to live our lives in such a way as Christ would have us do, and try not to hide our light under a bushel.

I think that the most effective Christian witnesses I have ever known are those who are open about their faith and actually LIVE their faith, even though they may rarely try to convince another to see the sin in their lives. Just live your Christian faith in such a way that others may say, "I want what he/she has!"

ETA: I don't know about "head" Christians, but I don't think "heart" Christians can lose their faith/salvation. After all, once you actually come to KNOW someone, you can't very well deny that He exists, can you?

Regards,
LC

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Lady Clueless ]</small>

That makes a lot of sense. I see my XH as a "head" Christian most definitely. And he believes he's saved. Thus, I don't want to judge what's in his heart, though it's tough to watch how he lives and think positive thoughts.

I really would have seen myself as somewhat a "head" Christian until my recommitment (maybe it was an initial commitment) back in 2001. I see a lot of difference in myself since then. Things I used to have no problem with, I do now. I have different interests, different goals.

But I was scared that perhaps I was delusional, that even though I was chasing after God, maybe I couldn't really catch him because of the dire mistakes I made in my earlier Christian life.

I guess your post brings me a little comfort again. I really am seeking him. Not as much as I want. I still fail to study his Word as often as I should, and I forget to pray when I get busy, and I'm FAR from perfect. But I see growth. And it's something I care deeply about and I seek. And I want to be a good witness.

I don't think we can or should judge the hearts of others. But I think God wants us to have assurance of our own salvation. There is no peace if you don't (at least for me). There is nothing worse in my mind than wondering if you've separated yourself from the Lord for eternity. I pray that I haven't.

LL

I have a friend who married and had a child about 11 years ago. She divorced this man after about two years of marriage and later married another man. She was married to him for about 7 years. About a year ago, she decided that what she had done was against God's will....she had sinned by divorcing her first husband, and felt in order to make retribution for that sin, she needed to divorce the second husband, and return to the first one and re-marry him.
Was this right? First, she committed adultery by divorcing the first husband and marrying the second. Then, she divorced the second husband and returned to the first, thereby committing adultery with the first husband.
So then, by now remaining married to the first husband, isn't she still "living in sin"? Would it have been better for her to have repented of her mistake in divorcing the first husband, but remain with the second, even though it was considered to be "living in sin" with the second husband? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Of course it would have been better had she never divorced her first husband. But she fell. And by the time she repented for that sin, she was married to another.....and the only way "out" was to sin a second time, in the same way.
This particular situation has my head spinning....
Is God going to condemn her now because no matter how you look at it, she is "still sinning"?

NOW

LL,
When I was posting about "heart" Christians, I thought of you. I don't post often, but I do lurk, and I can see you struggling to make sure you're eliminating sin in YOUR life...trying to live as Christ would want you to. Yep, I think of you as a "heart" Christian!

And, no, we can't judge what's in your H's heart. I do think that when someone wants to be a Christian, Satan starts working overtime, and sadly, new Christians often don't realize what is happening and fail. Just keep praying for your WW. Not necessarily that you and he will reconcile, but that Christ will work in his life.

((((((LL)))))

LC

Fishracer,

Maybe I shouldn't have said we are "hopeless"...what I meant was that we are utterly unable to perfectly keep every command. When we become Christians, we are not exempt from the power of sin.....there is now a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit of God within us. It is up to us which way we will go. When we become Christians, we invite God to work in our lives, to convict us of sin, and to help us learn how to live "right". But as long as we live, the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit will remain, even after we have been "saved".

I am not saying that Jesus' death created a license to sin. Paul talks about this in Romans....knowing that when some hear the "Good News" of Christ, they will come to that conclusion. Before I had the affair, I did not think to myself, "Gee, I want this, God will forgive me, so why the heck not? Go ahead!"
No, there was a battle going on inside me between my flesh and the Spirit. It would appear that the flesh "won", but not for long. It is BECAUSE I have been saved that I saw the error in my thinking, my actions, etc. It took time, but God brought me back to Himself. He did not FORCE me, He convicted me so that when I finally decided to return to obedience, it would be of my own choosing, and not because He said if I don't, I won't go to Heaven. And if I had not believed that my sin would be forgiven, why would I have even bothered to stop?

In your post you said "Some of the instructions(scriptures) clearly say that even if you've been saved and you choose a particular action...that you may not got to heaven."

Can you give me some examples?

You quoted Ezekiel 33:13...."If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done."

But don't ignore verses 14-16 :
"And if I say to the wickedman, "You will surely die" but then he turns away from sin and does what is just and right....and does no eveil, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live."

In a commentary on Romans I read the following:

"Being under grace does not eliminate the law (The Ten Commandments, Old Testament Law) - it changes the purpose of the law in our lives, from a source of judgment to a source of guidance, from an unattainable moral standard of our judge, to a character study of the one who loves us."

Being saved, I think, starts in a moment of faith. I don't think it can be lost....and becoming like Christ takes a lifetime, and will not be accomplished IN this lifetime.
While I was having an affair, I was STILL desiring to obey God, I was fighting against my flesh, calling out to God's Spirit.....I KNEW it was wrong yet I could not help myself. I needed God to help me. I ASKED him to, even though my flesh did not WANT Him to help.....eventually, God's Spirit got the upper hand.

NOW

To All:

I began to answer each of you individually with scriptural verifications and so on – then I realized the most important issue is what each of us believes to be true. I previously chose to answer NC’s original question in the context that he used without knowledge that the post would evolve to this point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In Christian circles, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is the key to gaining entrance to the kingdom of heaven. The question is - can that entrance be lost? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So now I am really scared for my WW. Can anyone point me to a Scripture that guarantees heaven after TRUE salvation accepted? Should I be worried? Or will her earlier acceptance of her Savior be enough? Sure doesn't sound like it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see; I very much relate to NC’s sitch as I worry about my WXW’s salvation as well. Since I’ve been studying this topic for more than a year now; I felt compelled to share what I’ve learned. I realize that these scriptures will hit a nerve for some and I apologize. Hitting a nerve is/was not my intent as I care for all of you. However, knowledge is advantageous to all of us, whether a believer or not. I choose to believe; therefore I must consider all that is written – even if it makes me uncomfortable or causes me to worry.

The following is a short synopsis of my last year+ of study about adultery, family and salvation. I’ve spoken directly with several church leaders (all protestant) and two theologians. Please understand that this is my summary, based on my understanding of what they shared with me and where they suggested I study. My best estimation of time spent on this is 300 hours since February 2004.

The scriptures that I posted previously on this thread have to do with salvation and/or adultery. To be honest; and despite the fact that I’ve studied the Bible for years; I never considered that there was a possibility that someone could lose their salvation once they accepted Jesus into their lives. After the last year – I am unsure. Of the theologians I spoke with, one believes you can lose salvation after having had it and the other believes that if you commit the sins related to adultery then you never really had it; thus you could not lose it. As to the scriptures relating to adultery/salvation, etc. and referring to Thompson’s CR Bible, those conversations were both spirited and enlightening. Bottom line to it: God included specific commandments to scripture about marriage, divorce and adultery because of his extreme desire for family, family values, rearing our children, honoring our mates, etc. The same comment kept coming up over and over: “God is passionate about family” . While I’m glad that God was and is fired up about family; it is disheartening to see how our world is so badly missing this message. Anyway, back to my study: When reading the Bible about family; we should recognize how specific God was in the wording about how we should treat our wives and vice-versa, how we are to honor our children, and also (sorry-guys) how extremely damaging adultery and divorce is to family.

My personal opinion: I believe that it is possible to lose salvation through adultery even if previously saved. (Note: I am not saying that the second, third, fourth…salvation must be lost, only that it can be.) My reasons are multiple but my default position is scripture. Since scripture also tells us (and many of you provided biblical proof) that salvation is always possible, I strongly believe that despite the fact we disappoint God so badly; he will still allow our entrance, but we must assure him by how we live – which is also proven scripturally. You should also know that I believe we receive salvation by grace. As grace is a gift, an honor and privilege, we receive and accept it by asking God for it. I also believe that we keep salvation (or depending on your viewpoint) nurture it by living as God commands. Which has everything to do with deeds, works, setting examples, etc.

FYI: I went through an awesome B-study on a Godly marriage during my dark-time. I mean AWESOME! The study I took was interactive with a couple from church who specialize in marriages. If any of you would like to see it, I think I can convert it to a post that will make sense. The study applies to all married couples regardless of A’s, no A’s, divorced & remarried, etc.

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Fishman -

Do you still have that study on marriage? Can you post it here?