I posted this message in the "Divorcing" thread but it was suggested that I put it here instead. Here's the therad:

Other Thread

Wow Rod. Thats a mess you have there.

Thats the bad news.

The good news is that while there is life, there is hope of reconciliation.

You and your W have done some pretty cruel things to each other there , either deliberately or not.

Most importantly can you confirm that yoru W has been recieving the counselling and/or psychological help she needs to recover from her suicide attempt ?

Even the proven marriagebuilders processes like plan A, plan B meeting ENs and avoiding LBs don't work well if people are ill, or have issues requiring independent resolution.

Rather than ramnble on, I direct you to this bundle of resources I assembled from my own experience if infidelity as a betrayed spouse.
Other wiser heads than I may offer specific dvice to you here.

Do not goive up, get yourself strong, study and apply MB principles and you will have the BEST chance of recovering your marriage.


*****************************************
Hi, I am Bob Pure !

My story gets referred to quite a bit on these boards, not because I am special but that my story was TYPICAL. The untypical bit was that everything happened pretty fast and I managed a close adherence to MB advice thanks to the
wonderful people on these boards and some grit I never knew I had. Oh and God's intervention of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

With so many posts and the search facility not being so brilliant I thought I'd gather important stuff together that may help new BS.

These links are not to show up MY posts but to READ the FANTASTIC advice I received in these threads and the outcome that was achieved. I hope they give you confidence that you are not alone, that your life WILL get better SOON, and that MB applied properly CAN help get your baby back.

God bless you in your efforts to recover your marriage.

Firstly an introduction, who the heck am I ?

So who is Bob Pure?

My dear wife of 18 years ,Squid, had an affair that I found out about on d-day July 22 2004. I wasn't in good shape then , maybe just like you now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> :

How did I feel on D-day ?

I was blessed by finding Marriagebuilders only three days after d-day. My early posts show my state of mind and heart. My dear Squid had been kidnapped by aliens and replaced with a snarling, spitting thing that made no sense,and hated me, our kids, friends, relatives...everyone but OM. The fog was thick and I had no idea what to do: Look at my desperation and misery BUT ALSO at the WONDERFUL advice and care this stranger got from MBers ! You are NOT alone on MB ! There are Angels here !

And they were not talking only to me but to every desperate Betrayed Spouse that ever reads this !

Note how generous in support are the FWS on this site. Do NOT be mean to them because infidelity hurt you. It hurt them too. You will NEED their insights. I learned from them how my Squid was feeling when she couldn't tell me herself. Their insight and support was central to our recovery.


See my early posts show hopelessness BUT see the uplifting advice from MBers, old and new alike !

First hopeless mess thread

I was soon pointed at a FANTASTIC resource on this board - WorthATry's Quickstart for new Betrayed Spouses. This thread has saved more than one life I am sure.

New BS READ THIS and digest it. THIS and prayer are all you need for a while.

WATs WONDERFUL guide to new betrayed spouses

It made me read every word on the site which made me buy "surviving an affair" by Willard Harley. I soon began to implement 'Plan A'.


Plan A advice from experts

Plan A is an exercise in hope and fear control as it is in stopping the affair. It has a massive secondary benefit of delivering self-control and self-determination to the BS too !

BS can get impatient with plan A, when really exposure is needed.

Experts stop my impatience with plan A

Here is a wonderful reasource again from friend WorthATry describing the process and benefits of exposing the affair to the OPs spouse and others.


WATs guide to affair exposure 101

Exposure was the most effective and satisfying tool against teh affair that I used ! Melody Lane , Pepperband and WAT almost bullied me into doing this when I was weak and felt like exposing would drive my wife away from me into the arms of her lover.

Wierd affair dynamics with WS
You can expect nastiness from your WS BUT exposure is important for all parties affected. And tell me the thought of OP dodging crockery for a day or two doesn't make you smile <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WS and OP don't like exposure much...uot;images/icons/smile.gif" />

Fog from WS after exposure....

Remember that you are not the only innocent hurt party in the affair Doesn't OPs spouse ( if there is one) deserve to know what they're married to ? In my case sending proof of PA to OM s GF was the catalyst that sent OM into therapy and their relationship on the road to recovery. NEVER feel that exposing is immoral JUST BECAUSE it feels good.

OM GF begs for proof of affair

SO...if starting plan A and exposing gets your baby back home with you (as I was blessed to find) you have work ahead of you, dear BS. You may be tempted and think " is it worth it?"

Is it all worth it? temptation of BS in Plan A

Your FWS will probably suffer withdrawal fom their feelings of addiction to the affair and OP. You must support them through this, even though it hurts you so badly.


Suzet's wonderful guide to withdrawal


You think " I don;t want this betrayer back"

Don't particularly want her back


You will wonder if your FWS will ever love you again...
Will she love me again? Am I second choice?

You may find you are tempte dto settle for teh easy way, and cease recovery as soon as your WS is back in yoru arms BUT DO NOT ! Strive for a GREAT marriage for both of you !
Do not give in too easily through loneliness

You may feel you can never be part of a couple again

Each of us is alone in this life


After a while, MB concepts like POJA and PORH become part of your vocabulary with your FWS
POJA even important stuff like contact with OMW

And you find yourself after WS withdrawal in recovery. In Plan A or plan B you had only one objective - stop the affair. Recovery is just as hard, but less easily targetted.

You may feel that although life is imporving yoru WS is not as contrite as you would hope for or expect, they may be affected by one of the many complex emotions suffered by FWS. You may not see it now,but affairs are hard on them too. There are no easy lives after an affair.


Get inside a FWS head

as a FBS, you will find everything against your instinct that is successful. Amongst the hardest things I did was forgive my Squid. But I got back more than i could have dreamed.

Discussion on total forgiveness

And you may find yourself taking mor eblame than you deserve for the poor M which may have led to your WS affair

Isit all my fault ?

If you have scanned through for some of these I hope you may have seen parallels with your own seemingly hopeless sitiation.

Well, I am here to tell you that you CAN get your baby back and be happier than ever. My Squid loves me again and is working on our marriage in a loving and mostly fun environment.

Take heart, new BS. Your heart CAN be mended. Follow the advice of the wise folks on this board.

Rod-

If you don't want to get divorced, why are you going along with *filing the papers*?

When was D-Day? Have you done plan A?? Have you exposed to the OM's wife? Have you exposed to anyone else who could impact the affair?

I read the thread you posted, but it didn't give tons of information. I saw your post and that there were no replies so I thought I'd bump it back up top for ya.

-Caren

Rod-

Bob's thread is excellent, you should take full advantage of that information <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Caren

Wow Bob, thanks for the info. I will look through it when I get home this evening.

As for her mental status, she is completely better. She was on psych meds, therapy, counselling, etc., for years but it has now completely passed.

CarenMC, I am filing because I feel that by hindering her in her quest for freedom, I will end up pushing her away even more and therefore reduce the chances that something might be fixed.

Plus, if I don't file she will do it anyway. I know she appreciates me being supportive, and it helps us remain amicable. I guess I'm doing what "Plan A" recommends...trying to remind her that I'm still a good guy that she can love.

Rod,

Sorry you are here, read Bob's thread and all the links there. They helped me a lot to understand what was happening and to change my marriage. Since OM (read the anacronysms thread) is married and has no intentions of leaving his W then exposure of the A to his W is one of the steps you might consider taking. This will help the A die. More expert posters will advice you soon. Keep posting and reading. Good luck.

rod. Remind her of all that without agreeing to a divorce you don't want.

Tell her you love her, and you want to stay married to her, and learn to be the husband she needs and deserves, but that she needs to stop seeing OM, and work on the M too.

Then tell her thats the reason whey you cannot agree to a divorce until you feel every chance to behappy together has been exhausted.

This is a marrigebuilding site ! We don't do divorce unless we've tried everything else first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

bob, I don't think it matters if I don't agree to the divorce. I believe that here in Washington state, divorce can happen with just one party wanting it. I may be wrong about that.

Plus my gut is telling me that by saying I don't want the divorce, it will get ugly. She will stop being friendly with me, may get a lawyer, etc. In some ways I think she needs to experience this freedom from me first hand in order to properly gauge if it's something she wants. I will try one more time to see if we can just do a legal separation, but I'm not optimistic. She is determined to divorce me right now.

" Plus my gut is telling me that by saying I don't want the divorce, it will get ugly. "

I should rephrase that. She knows I do not want the divorce. But by refusing it I believe things will get ugly.

rod , if you want an amicable divorce, this is not a good site to help you.we on these baords have seen more seemingly hopeless situations than yours lead to better marriages than ever.

If you want to give up, fair enough, but don't ask our advice.

if you want to recover your M , you have got to :

* Stop the down talk
* Plan A your BUNS off
* Study, study, study.
* oh and DO ALL YOU CAN TO PREVENT THE DIVORCE !!!

Your wife is addicted right now, just as surely as crackheads or junkies.

You must wean her off her addiction by being a lighthouse, guiding a welcoming path through the madness to a safe, non-judgmental life with you: a reformed , attractive spouse.
read up on Plan A on this site and preferably get a copy of 'surviving an affair". In fact read all that stuff I posted you earlier.
We'll be here for you 24/7 if you want to try to save yoru M, but rod, if you want a friendly divorce, God bless ya, but we can;t help.

This is a MARRIAGEBUILDING site.

All blessings.

I am sorry you feel I am "giving up." As I see it right now, divorce will happen. She is adamant. If I don't at least play along and be supportive...if I fight her through the process...we will have an ugly divorce.

I don't want a divorce, but if there has to be one I want it to remain amicable. Obviously the best solution is to not have a divorce at all.

I am filing the petition only .. there is still a 90 day waiting period before the final papers can be filed. I guess I was looking for things to do during these 90 days that may help.

Again, refusing to fill out papers won't help. Here in Washington she can simply fill them out to divorce me. I don't need to sign anything; I don't have to agree to the divorce. Here in WA you cannot force someone to stay married to you.

I have read Plan A and think it's a great plan. I have actually started doing most of it, as other friends have already suggested that I behave in such a manner. Unfortunately I don't know how successful it will be while she is still emotionally attached to this other man, and the wife apparently doesn't mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Plan B would not work because of our past involvement in a high-control group that used that technique all the time. No question about it; it would be devastating to attempt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rod:
<strong> I am sorry you feel I am "giving up." As I see it right now, divorce will happen. She is adamant. If I don't at least play along and be supportive...if I fight her through the process...we will have an ugly divorce.

I don't want a divorce, but if there has to be one I want it to remain amicable. Obviously the best solution is to not have a divorce at all.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rod, I agree very much with Bob Pure; really, the worst thing you can do is go along with the divorce. Trying to remain "amicable" cannot be your highest ideal when your marriage is at stake. That would just be contributing to the demise of your marriage.

You don't have to be ugly about it. Just tell her that you love her and are not ready to go along with a divorce. Then smile sweetly. If she chooses to be ugly, that is her perogative. You don't have to ugly, but you also don't have to be a door mat. [women don't respect men they can run over, anyway]

But you shouldn't support her in destroying your marriage for fear she will "get mad."

What she really does want is for you to smile sweetly and be "amicable" while she destroys your marriage so that she won't have to face the consequences of her destructive choices. You help her acheive this goal at your own expense. She will get over being angry if you don't help her divorce you but your marriage won't survive a divorce. And yes, she can divorce you, but don't make it easy for her to destroy your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unfortunately I don't know how successful it will be while she is still emotionally attached to this other man, and the wife apparently doesn't mind. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ENTIRE POINT of Plan A is to DETACH her from the OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B would not work because of our past involvement in a high-control group that used that technique all the time. No question about it; it would be devastating to attempt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is a very effective technique that is widely used with great success in Marriage Builders. Its purpose is two-fold: to protect the BS from the destructive tactics of the WS and hopefully, to pull a cakeeating WS off the fence. It is not devastating.

I am sorry you feel I am "giving up." As I see it right now, divorce will happen. She is adamant. If I don't at least play along and be supportive...if I fight her through the process...we will have an ugly divorce.


Rod, please re-read what you wrote. I only know of you you what you told me.

You told me that your love your wife after years of problems and want to restore your marriage with her,but first you must wrest her away from this OM. Right ?

And your first action in this masterplan is to DIVORCE HER ?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Seriously, you need to do what is best for your head and heart. If that is an amicable divorce, then so be it.

Just know that conflict avoidance contributes to more divorces and marital crises on these boards than any single other trait IME.

Its OK to want a divorce, but don't do it while telling yourself its best for your marriage. It is the END of your marriage.

As Mel says make sure your wife knows that you are not refusing to divorce her out of spite but out of LOVE.

Or divorce her and live in hope of a rare post-divorce reconciliation.

Up to you mate.

All blessings as you get your head straight.

Rod......As your WS blames you for the affair she will also blame you for the divorce in the end. Trying to stay amicable (while good) is not the goal here; reclaiming your marriage is. Why destroy it then try to put it back together....that's much harder. Your WS is in pea soup fog here.....don't let her drag you into it and get you disoriented.

Good point, guys... I will rethink my actions.