http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=037394#000004

I am so confused. Both my WW and the OM are in a serious and destructive relationship that I cannot break. How do I break them..?

I went across to their house and knocked on the door as I yearned for my son so much .. my wife saw me and OM hid ..I looked through house windowm and saw my son and possible daughter.. I felt a rush .. I was so happy. As I was doing this .. My wife stood boldy behind the galss porch and phoned the police.

I then moved and left the scene .. As I reversed; the OM came out .I guess he finaly found his manhood.. or he was just trying to reel me back in until Police arrive.

I did get away unscathed ..!

miguel..

you are blinded by your pain and fear on how this site can help you...

there are litterally 100's of dads who have stood in your shoes....

seperated from their childrens..
victims of a system that disregards fathers...
all the support you could imagine on how to traverse those waters....

lots of info on how to seperate the child issues from the rebuilding issues....

and you ingnore disregard and say I'm already doing those things....

and then you go and look in windows....so that the police get called...

when the reality is that looking in windows serves you not one bit in getting to the children...
and only hurts you....

new spinal cord injury patients spend their first few weeks in rehab angry at the world...grasping for control over things that they can not control and raving at the nurses and staff who try to care for them...it is an understandable process of mourning...and yet it wastes precious precious expensive rehab time....in which they could be learning how to control what they can...and the nurses while facing wrath guide them to independance...

this board can not support you in peeking in the window....
but we can support you if you tell us about the childrens advocate that you obtained that understand FATHERS rights and is guiding you in a plan...

I know I sound 'mean' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but you are spinning your wheels...
and doing serious serious damage to yourself and your children...

and wasting precious precious time..
so when you are ready to get real help born of the pain and struggles of others..
it's here....

ARK

Miguel,

Please read this article on Dr Harley’s plan A and B for infidelity and how it can help to stop/disrupt an A. Please note that exposure is also part of plan A.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Miguel-

I feel so bad for you, I know your hurting, and the hurt you are feeling is probably worse than mine (And mine is pretty horrible) because you are unable to see your children.

I agree that looking in the windows is a bad idea, you're gonna get yourself arrested for being a peeping tom.

These things you are doing, are only cementing your WW's feelings that she's made the right decision to be with the OM. She needs to see a stronger you, someone that isn't a disaster....because NO ONE is enticed home by a BS that is a basket case....it's not attractive.

That's what we're concentrating on here......being the BEST Miguel you can be, improving the things about yourself she found lacking, (even if you have to guess at what those were). CONCENTRATE on improving YOU, you CAN'T change your WW you have no control over her, you only have control over you.

-Caren

Ark,

I know you are being hard; but I agree with some of what you are saying. If I went to house.. there was a chance I would see my child .. which I did..I did not get arrested and tried to handle things calmly.However, you are right that this simply infuriates the situation and stop contact .. but what contact am I getting at present? None!

I have a solicior/lawyer also working on trying to gain access to my children for me. The soliciors .. well all they do is just suck money and at the end of the day .. I should hopefully try and gret some contact soon.. as my solicitor has been chasing her solicitor!.. They are dragging their feet. It was to be 3-4 weeks waiting and I would see them .. but I have gained nothing thus far.

In the UK; there are rights for fathers .. but women abuse them!! That is my reality! My WW is being guided by an Evil man that most if not all of us would have aproblem breaking or dealing with.Why not help me rather than point out my obvious mistakes .. that I am fully aware off. I would appreciate a poll or something where you help me get some answers..

Hi CarenMc,

I am working on improving myself.However, it is hard that I am dealing with a WW that is so cold with no compation for either myself or her children. What I have done thus far for myself:-

1. Attend yoga/Relaxation classes.
2. Teach myself stress management.
3. Attend Martial Arts class .. to fight and get rid of my anger ..

There was a point to what I was doing .. letting her know that I will not just fade into the wind and dissapear... despite the fact that she may tray and have me arrested.

As for her returning?; I cannot see that happen in the short term.The fever must run it's course and this may be 2-5years from now! What am I to do?

If this is the case .. she will not be returning!

My son's eyes lit up as he saw mee looking through the window and waving at him.I am sure that he felt that daddy had not abandoned him !

your son sees daddy through the window he goes to the window...

cruel mom and cruel freak man grab child and force him away from the window..

child starts crying reaching for his dad...

mom restrains child

grownups are yelling...
screaming..

police are called..
children are taught that police are our friends and protect those that need protected from bad people...
but these police are going after daddy...

you don't need to see your children in that position...

you need to not go belly up with the social workers....
not speak of the money...
and find out what you can do to see them..

again what happens when mom refuses to let the scheduled visits go on..

what are your legal rights to information about their health...
well visits with the doctors....

you are too focused on them..

if you live on the same street you should move...

forget the lawyers seek out child advocate and child protective services as your advocates as well..

are their true legal charges against you that are sticking...

what is the truthful logistical barriers to you seeing the children and when is the end date...

work with the system..
also use the system...
find other DAD SUPPORT groups in YOUR town..
other men have been through this...

stuff all your pride and work with them....

you name it I'd crawl through it to get to my children...
so would you miguel....
so do it...

ARK

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Ark,
Thanks for the words; I know what you say are true . I did take a decision before doing what I done. I went in peace and calmly and as soon as I saw that there was going to be trouble; I left .. such that police could not act.

My Rights:-

1. Parental Responsability: Access to doctors records, school records etc.. Have I got It .. NO..to early to demand right now.


2.Acess: Contact order applied for.. but I am being played by the system that is supposed to protect me. Agreement of 2Hours/2 Weeks via mediation with WW.. Yes lousy .. but I would rather have something than nothing. Interim contact order applied for and awaiting. WW is playing adn dodging the system .. mediation was done early Feb ..and we ares still awaiting response from her solicior .. stalling I guess!

3.Support Groups.. Oh yeah .. I joined as a member of fathers4 justice
children need famillies

Again money grabbing organisations that are underfunded and run by poor guys like me that hav suffered with the system in the UK.

By the way .. these groups in the UK do not unite to create a common force .. they fight each other and weaken themselves..

Read my story and you will see that I am crawling through it .. nearly lost my life 4 times.. to see my children.

I have even enquired about studying law part-time so that I can get ahead ..I will do anything legal or other to see my children.

FACT
The system in the UK is biased towards the mother and fathers get a raw deal.. no matter how we try and what we do!!

Qusetion
Where are you from?

Miguel, Ark has been giving you good advice on this thread. There are no magic words that anyone can give you to resolve this situation tomorrow. It is very sad that your children had to be dragged into an affair, but there is nothing you can do right now except go through the courts.

In the meantime, you can avoid any lovebusters IF and when you do talk to your wife. Do you talk to her at all?

Miguel,

I will go back and read some of your other posts. But based on what I've read so far in this thread, I'm going to speak up and share the (questionable) benefit of my experience.

After I divorced my ex-wife because she was abusive, she went on the war path against me. I'm in Canada and the system here is noted amongst the worst in the world in terms of being a Dad and being in family court. I've spent more money fighting to have rights as my sons father than I did on my first mortgate. I could tell you stories that I'd have to change a bit just so that you would believe them...

Anyway, this is experience talking and it's gonna come out harsh. But before you take it wrong, realize that I've been through this myself and have personally visited the deepest pits of hell. I'm gonna be so blunt...

1.Stop agravating the situation. The cards are already stacked against you so for crying out loud stop making it worse.

The window thing was a good example of the exact wrong decision to take. The potential damage FAR outweighs any benefit. That goes for you AND your son. Do not willingly create no-win situations. There will be enough for you to face without you making more.

Do not trade what you want most for what you want now.

2. If your lawyer is no good, get another one. Be patient thought. Stalling is a tactic your ex's lawyer will certainly use. A good lawyer on your end will know how to apply effective legal pressure.

Another favorite tactic is the 'paper flood'. Your lawyer will suddenly receice reams of documents and excessive demands for documents and other things from her lawyer. Another tactic to draw out the process in an effort to frustrate, confuse, and discourage you as well as cost you more money.

Be aware of these things. Be aware of everything. Seeing things for what they are will help you deal with them effectively instead of being controlled by predictable tactics.

3. Stop *****ing about the system. Yes it's foul. Yes we are starting with the deck stacked against us. And yes, the system is supposed to be there to protect and to serve us. But sadly, that ain't the reality of the situation. Complaining about it only fuels your resentment and frustration.

Accept that there are rules to this sick game. And if you don't learn the ropes, you will be hung.

4. Document EVERYTHING.

If you DO learn the ropes, there is a strong likelyhood that things will work out in the end. Perhaps not perfectly, but play your cards right and you will end up with the best possible outcome. And that goes for you AND your son.

The beating I took lasted about 8 years. I've been arrested, investigated, assessed, ordered to pay over 4x my actual income in child support... it took so long for me to figure it out...

Then I did.

And the tables turned.

Now I see my son regularily. He and I have a good relationship and my ex is not trying to have me slaughtered anymore. It was a rough road, made rougher by my own inability to do what had to be done in the first place, but I got there.

You need to slow down, my friend, and get a grip. You are going to need to keep yourself together and in control if you want a hope in hell of getting through this.

With much brotherly love (and much compassion)

dewt

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

Hay dewt,

I am sorry to hear that you had a rough time of of it .. 8 years of Hell. That is a lifetime ..Why would one human being want to inflict that much pain and suffering on another?

I know the hell that you are talking about brother.. because I am in the deepest darkest pit. I go from days of I will get through this to days like today.. where I cannot bring myself to wake-up from the depression. My mind is tortured in every sense of the word.. and think that I am going to die.

I know what you are saying is true .. I did wait for 6 months and fight.. without being drawn into any battle with her. Then; I just had to see my son ..and let him know that his daddy still loved him. I love him so !!

The lawyers are only able to work within the system and as you say .. it is already stacked against us ..!!

So .. the only way out that I initialy though about was death .. but I know that is stupid!!

I am begining to realise that nobody can help and that I should just give him up to WW and other Man .. and loose my rights . if I had any in the first place.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by miguel:
<strong> Hay dewt,

I am sorry to hear that you had a rough time of of it .. 8 years of Hell. That is a lifetime ..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes. And hell is putting it lightly. But I got through it. And my son calls me Dad. And I see him ALL the time. He's 13 now and calls me regularily... well, not so regularily 'cause he's 13 and is starting to get his own life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yes it was hell. But I learned HOW to fight and while I didn't exactly win (nobody ever 'wins' in a situation like this) I learned how to work within the system and make it work for my son instead of his mother.

And I'll tell ya, the day she was arrested and charged and then later reprimanded by the judge... well that was like a nuclear bomb going off in her life.

But that was the beginning of the end of the war. That was like 4-5 years ago and things have been pretty smooth since.


Why would one human being want to inflict that much pain and suffering on another?

I don't know. I used to think about that all the time. Did lots of research into it and everything. But to tell ya the truth since I've resolved the issue, and learned to protect myself, it's no longer my problem. She's free to be as miserable or happy as she wants.

Then; I just had to see my son ..and let him know that his daddy still loved him. I love him so !!

Can that kind of thinking. Right off the bat. Think long term. Do not trade what you want most for what you want now. Actions like that will hurt your cause very badly. DO NOT GIVE HER ANY MORE AMMUNITION!!! Your son is going to need you in his life. Your job, as his Dad, is to make sure that he gets that. It's also your job to make sure he gets to have his mom too. That's a bitter pill to swallow.

But here's the godawful truth. You love your son? Here's where it gets put to the test. This is gonna take all you got, and then some. But for your sons sake, you gotta pull through. For his sake, let wisdom guide your actions, not emotion. Maybe you've been living with the French for too long... (just a joke, everybody, don't bite my head off) You are going to have to do what's best for your son even though it's going to be so tough.

The lawyers are only able to work within the system and as you say .. it is already stacked against us ..!!

Yes. Stacked against us, but it's still where your answers lie. Step outside it and your boat is sunk. Play by the rules.

The rules are expansive. They are complicated with loops and turns all the way. And if you keep your head about you and manage to see through the cr@p you can find a way.

So .. the only way out that I initialy though about was death .. but I know that is stupid!!

Well, at the very least unwise. It seems to me that this situation needs at least one level headed, mature person acting with love and care for the child. So far, despite your errors in judgement so far, you seem to be the only one who wants to try to find a good solution for your son. Killing yourself would be kind of unfair to him, don't you think?

I am begining to realise that nobody can help and that I should just give him up to WW and other Man .. and loose my rights . if I had any in the first place.

No doubt about it. This is going to be a tough one. I'm telling you right now though, that no matter how dark things get, that if you keep your head and stay your path, you will get through the other side.

Sometimes the only thing that kept me going was the stack of documents that I'd collected, detailing my concerns and fight for my sons right to a good, stable life. I figured if worse came to worse, I'd live my life and go and meet him on his 18th birthday. I'd present him with EVERYTHING and apologize for not being there for him as he grew up.

Thankfully, I figured out the system and settled the matter and all that horror and pain is a part of my past. Just scars, man. Just scars.

Right now you are suffering the raw wounds. One day they will just be scars.

dewt

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes the only thing that kept me going was the stack of documents that I'd collected, detailing my concerns and fight for my sons right to a good, stable life. I figured if worse came to worse, I'd live my life and go and meet him on his 18th birthday. I'd present him with EVERYTHING and apologize for not being there for him as he grew up.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is excellent advice.

I know people who just gave up, one man in particular. Now his two daughters who are grown will NOT see him. He did not fight. In their eyes their mother was right with all those years of bad-talking dad. He did not fight Miguel, and so he had nothing to take to them when they were 18. Nothing.

Please listen closely to Dewt's advice it is good. As is Arks. You must be level headed and stable through this. You must not give the infidels ANYTHING in which to hang you with.

Hang tight guy, you can get through this and get through it as a good and honorable man.

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

Dewt,

Thanks for the support man..I really need it. I'm scared as hell. I have never let spoke about or let on yet about something horrid ...but it took my mother to point it out to me.

After my WW left; my mother found the following belonging to my wife:-

1.Buckland Book of Witchcraft.
2.A black bag with the star - Sign of witchcraft.
3.Crystal Ball.
4.A two edged knife.
5.Love poems.
6.Sex Book.

I have done some research and the OM I believe could be a practitioner of wicca. He never wears socks and walks around barefoot at times..this is a sign of a practitioner of wicca.I've really got it stacked high!!

Like you and many others like us I have had the same thoughts and I figured if worse came to worse, I'd live my life and go and meet him on his 18th ..much like you . I don't want to be forced into that predicament though.. I remember the look he gave me..as if to say help me daddy!

I remember his last words to his grandfather .. ''You will never leave me will you grandad''.. It is all this that will keep me going!

Dewt,

Thanks for the support man..I really need it. I'm scared as hell. I have never let spoke about or let on yet about something horrid ...but it took my mother to point it out to me.

After my WW left; my mother found the following belonging to my wife:-

1.Buckland Book of Witchcraft.
2.A black bag with the star - Sign of witchcraft.
3.Crystal Ball.
4.A two edged knife.
5.Love poems.
6.Sex Book.

I have done some research and the OM I believe could be a practitioner of wicca. He never wears socks and walks around barefoot at times..this is a sign of a practitioner of wicca.I've really got it stacked high!!

Like you and many others like us I have had the same thoughts and I figured if worse came to worse, I'd live my life and go and meet him on his 18th ..much like you . I don't want to be forced into that predicament though.. I remember the look he gave me..as if to say help me daddy!

I remember his last words to his grandfather .. ''You will never leave me will you grandad''.. It is all this that will keep me going!

Dewt,

Thanks for the support man..I really need it. I'm scared as hell. I have never let spoke about or let on yet about something horrid ...but it took my mother to point it out to me.

After my WW left; my mother found the following belonging to my wife:-

1.Buckland Book of Witchcraft.
2.A black bag with the star - Sign of witchcraft.
3.Crystal Ball.
4.A two edged knife.
5.Love poems.
6.Sex Book.

I have done some research and the OM I believe could be a practitioner of wicca. He never wears socks and walks around barefoot at times..this is a sign of a practitioner of wicca.I've really got it stacked high!!

Like you and many others like us I have had the same thoughts and I figured if worse came to worse, I'd live my life and go and meet him on his 18th ..much like you . I don't want to be forced into that predicament though.. I remember the look he gave me..as if to say help me daddy!

I remember his last words to his grandfather .. ''You will never leave me will you grandad''.. It is all this that will keep me going!

Mig.

You can commisurate all you want about this. Venting is good. And if dissecting the OM/WW makes you feel better then do it.

But it is not giving you a plan of recovery for yourself and your child visitation situation.

No more window peeking. No more breaking the rules set in place. It makes you appear to be the wild one outta control here and villifies you and it will make your WW think it's the best thing in the world...leaving you that is. You're cementing her feelings for you and enabling her to continue to act this way.

Look at Bob Pure. He didn't become fuel for their affair. He didn't "feed the affair". You're feeding their affair. You're feeding the bs against you with regards to child custody.

And the court systems do not care today if he's a card carrying witch or not. They do care if their mom and dad are sane or not. They do care if their mom or dad is out of control or not. They do care if mom or dad lashes out in anger or not. They do care if mom or dad has a mental problem and they choose NOT to get help for it.

So here is your answer.
1)work on you.
2)Find a better lawyer. Do whatever it takes to get a bulldog lawyer who is keen on fathers' rights.
3)join a fathers' support group.
4)WORK ON YOUR ANGER...YOU ARE STILL OUT OF CONTROL! I can hear it in your posts.
5)get on a good antidepressant and get under a doctor's care. Also, if there are charges against you for being out of control/anger issues, I would suggest your seeing a pyschologist who also has court privileges who could be a testimony to your recovery and committment to being a good and sound father...and a sane one...this could counteract any claims made by your WW and OM.
6)get on a good , really good antidepressant. I picked up on the "I want to die" thing that you posted earlier about. You have verbalized this more than once. It's time to go see a doc. Lexapro is quick acting and has good results that I have seen in patients. Heck, I took it myself as it was prescribed to me during the months where I had multiple court hearings so I could have clarity of thought and action. You need that now so you will have no more "window peeking" moments.
7)GET YOURSELF STRAIGHT AND TOGETHER NOW ...YES,your son wants his dad. If you do these things, your son will have his dad in his life.
8)This may also be one of the most important tips also...unless these changes happen and are dealt with positively, I don't see your WW wanting to come back...or have any dealings with you. You are still coming from a point of rage and not of admittance. Yes, your W had an affair. Yes, she moved in w/OM. Yes, you can't legally see your child. But what have you admitted caused some of this? The WS is the ones who chooses to be unfaithful. That is a choice. But we the BS have a choice...we can get ourselves together and work on this lousy situation we're handed...we have a chance to make ourselves stronger and better...or we can make a bad situation even worse by allowing emotions to control our actions.

Quit focusing on the OM/W thing.

You need to do a plan B...so you can get clarity and sanity. And you need to work off that checklist I gave you. And you need to quit worrying about the WW until you are healed.

until you ADMIT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM AND GET HELP FOR IT AND WORK ON YOU...there is nothing else you can do. You must do that because there's a child who wants his dad. And a dad whom I believe would like to be healthy for his son.

No court system would deny a person visitation if they get help for a problem. And if the person corrects the problem. Courts do not want to take kids away from their parents. But if there is evidence (even if it is bogus), it must be proved and the person in question must be cleared. So you must do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get this situation righted in an appropriate way so that you will always be active in your son's life.

Hi Justpeachy,

You are right.. I was fueling the affair.I should put this all in a box at the back of mind.

Bob Pure did not get as rough a deal as me..so I guess his threshold for pain/time cannot be compared to mine... but I do take your point and agree with you.

If you read my threads .. you will find that I have already done much of what you have suggested.

1.I take a herbal stress relief: CALMS!
2.I am going out more and was out last night ...drinking and socialising with friends.
3.I have taken advice from organisations in the UK like fathers4justice and children need families
4.I too advice from marriagebuilders.com
5. I took a holiday for 3 weeks to deal with anger.
6. I am taking yoga classes.

The truth is .. I am triggered by by mother/father sometimes looking at me with anger and dissapointment.The are sick to death of listening and talking about the same subject .. so I come here fo salvation and more direction.

I spent most of today in a church and in prayer.. after my mother vented out her anger at me for not taking action!!

I agree with the advice .. but find it hard to apply in my case ..

1.Baby child .. mine or not?
2.Not seen child since 20 days old .. now 7 months.
3.Is baby calling OM .. Daddy?
4. How is my son feeling/coping? He surely misses me and garandad and his family!

Yes .. I know.. I cannot control these .. so forget about them and Focus on what I can control .. Myself!!

Bob Pure did not get as rough a deal as me..so I guess his threshold for pain/time cannot be compared to mine... but I do take your point and agree with you.

Mig. I didn't LET IT get that rough. It started JUST LIKE yours sitch. They all do.

I started fixing myself and doing the right thing VERY SOON (a week) after discovering Squids affair. I reckon I was a month of indecision from being in your shoes, no more. Squid and OM were going to attend his estranged son's funeral together and 'run away'. I exposed with proof just days before and killed the A's future dead.

But y'know, your inference is right. For whatever reason you are starting from a place of an entrenched affair , the loss of your children and wife and personal crisis. I have no experience of that.

But Mig, venting hasn't helped you all these months and its not helping you now br'a.

I told U the stuff I think you need to do. Up to you if U do them mate. We can empathoise, sympathise, cluck and tut but U gott a grab your goolies and do the right thing mate. Else nothings going to change. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome.

All blessings.


{{{{mig}}}}

Bob,

Mig. I didn't LET IT get that rough. It started JUST LIKE yours sitch. They all do.

You were luck enough to find out. I was ran over by a mack going at 120mph.. that's the difference. So what did I do? I worked on what could be called plan A for a week.The result of that was my wife had me arrested because she had a plan in motion!

I do have all the cards stacked up against me.. but I am a fighter... that needs to let go of her and focus on my children! So what did I do .. I ignored the woman .. for near on 5 months as she had absconded with my children. I was forced into this position!!

I am grabbing my goolies and standing up.. but nothing is happening.

Truth.. I've got to let the fever run it's course.. be thsi 2,5,10 years.

My Children.. I've got to fight for them .. legally and hold back on th emotional side!!

Give me an agenda .. I will do it .. but I garantee that this is an entrenched situation.. a mexican stand-off, a stale-mate that OM is happy to live with.

My children are my main concern and despite what people read of my venting .. i've made small steps and some win's

1. I never had a clue where my WW & Children were 5 months back. They could have been outside the country for all I know? Now I know there address and now they are well

2. I did not know if my daughter was mine ..no way of getting DNA sample etc..
Now I got DNA sample and will know soon enough -5-7 days.

3. About 5 months ago .. I needed AD's and did get them .. but were of no use .. so i'm on calms instead.. Does not mean that I have no anger or life's triggers don't exit.

4. I am attending some classes,excercising,shaving,earting and getting better everyday .. time is what I need.. This is a long haul and not a quick fix.. Dig in boys in what they would say in the Army!

5. I am prepared to make concessions and let her go .. but I need gaurantees on seeing my children.
She has convinced herself that she holds all the cards and is going for the kill! I can only try and do the best to protect myself.