Let's put it this way LO.

In the event of a divorce, I am more concerned about protecting me as FWH is no longer my spouse, and his needs are no longer my concern.

If it is legal and applicable, I'll use it.

Noodle

Again I must agree with LO. One thing all counselors will tell you is that when you argue don't bring in the kitchen sink. You need to let go of the past and move on. If you keep all of this info to drag out later, just in case...that to me implies that the trust can never ever truely come back. If you keep thinking your WH is going to have another affair you will never be able to believe anything he says, and if that is how you feel..then why stay married?

If you keep the dirt for later..that to me implies
you have lost your faith. Dragging that crap with you into the future is going to make you pretty tired and suck the energy right out of you.
Heck why don't we just hire PI's to follow our spouses right after we marry them, its not like we don't trust them...but just in case. Why not take a journal of every bad thing our spouses say or do..cause you never know when we might need it for a divorce. Am I saying be naive..No

I certainly hope God isn't forgiving me of my sins and then writing them down for future use. I arrive at the pearly gates and he says "Diane...I forgave you but...."

AD,

Allow me to expand and perhaps answer your Q.

I did not..NOT..forgive H at the beginning of recovery.

In my state of residence, the law concerning adultery is very specific. Within two years, and without having resumed SF..adultery is grounds. Later, or post coitus..it is not.

I knew this, and did not have SF with H for 7 mo. When I had SF with him I chose to give away that option..although I still had not forgiven him.

I agree that holding something over a persons head post forgiveness is unethical [and the court agrees too]..contradictory really..but let's not make the blanket assumption that attempts to recover automatically equal having forgiven the offense.

Particularly with the prevalence of false recovery.

Particularly as it may take years for the BS to KNOW whether thay can recover or not.

[As an aside..SF with WS is an area that I am in strong opposition with Harley..I think it puts the BS in a position of weakness spiritually, physically, financially, legally.]

Noodle

Dr. Willard Harley has said that we should never trust our spouses 100%. It is not a DJ.

I keep the old cell phone records for me. I doubt they could ever be used in my state to effect any future D. The records were a victory for me to find proof of the A's. My suspicions were justified. I was not crazy.

In recovery, they hold no power; they are just fact. They are still there if I want a reminder...but I haven't looked at them in a long, long time.

I do look at every current phone bill...call me compulsive. I made the mistake of ceasing to get detail bills once...as long as they are still available, I will get them now. I love my H but I will never trust him 100% again.

One may ask if that is any way to live? It is my life...what can I say. I chose to stay married. We all have our consequences and sacrifices.
Our marriage is great today. It will never be as trusting and innocent as it was before the A's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As an aside..SF with WS is an area that I am in strong opposition with Harley..I think it puts the BS in a position of weakness spiritually, physically, financially, legally. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't think this is an aside at all. It gives me a peek into where you're coming from.

In general, MARRIAGE places you in a position of weakness. It's a tremendous risk. But we take it because of the potential reward. CHILDREN place you in a position of weakness. You're embarking on being responsible for other little human beings...LOTS of risk there.

We have to be willing to take the leap. It's the same with recovery. You did exactly that when you chose to resume SF...when you chose to forgive (you have, haven't you?)

There are NO guarantees in this life except that it will end at some point.

Humans are frail, weak things. We sometimes like to deceive ourselves into thinking we are STRONG only to fall hard when life kicks the crap out of us.

When we accept that we are weak, we can accept weakness in others. We can accept that ours and others failing aren't the end of the world. Our true strength is in accepting that, in our weakness, we need others to make it.

How many people who thought they were strong have walked off a battlefield/courtroom/ballfield only to find the victory was hollow? The battle is won, justice is served, but the war is lost.

I don't have a lot of answers. I just know that anything worth experincing in life will require you to become vulnerable.

I spent the first hakf of my life avoiding any situation where the outcome was uncertain. I wouldn't engage in competitive sports because it would reveal my vulnerabilities. I avoided challenges for fear of being weak. It was a pathetic existance.

No More

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I keep the old cell phone records for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm curious, does you H know that have them? How does he feel about it? Would you get rid of them if he asked you to?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As an aside..SF with WS is an area that I am in strong opposition with Harley..I think it puts the BS in a position of weakness spiritually, physically, financially, legally. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't think this is an aside at all. It gives me a peek into where you're coming from.

Could you expand on this?

In general, MARRIAGE places you in a position of weakness. It's a tremendous risk. But we take it because of the potential reward. CHILDREN place you in a position of weakness. You're embarking on being responsible for other little human beings...LOTS of risk there.

I agree, but I'm not sure how the two are related.

We have to be willing to take the leap. It's the same with recovery. You did exactly that when you chose to resume SF...when you chose to forgive (you have, haven't you?)

I forgave very recently..oh..about 3 months ago..long after I resumed SF. Yes, it was aleap, it did create vulnerability..or at least increase it.

There are NO guarantees in this life except that it will end at some point.

True

Humans are frail, weak things. We sometimes like to deceive ourselves into thinking we are STRONG only to fall hard when life kicks the crap out of us.

Agree

When we accept that we are weak, we can accept weakness in others. We can accept that ours and others failing aren't the end of the world. Our true strength is in accepting that, in our weakness, we need others to make it.

Agree

How many people who thought they were strong have walked off a battlefield/courtroom/ballfield only to find the victory was hollow? The battle is won, justice is served, but the war is lost.

In my opinion, the war was lost before recovery ever began..that is what makes it recovery.

I don't have a lot of answers. I just know that anything worth experincing in life will require you to become vulnerable.

Agree..most things anyway.

I spent the first hakf of my life avoiding any situation where the outcome was uncertain. I wouldn't engage in competitive sports because it would reveal my vulnerabilities. I avoided challenges for fear of being weak. It was a pathetic existance.

I have always loved a challenge..but you see, the question of recovery is whether the prize is worth the loss/effort/risk. It isn't a given my any means.

Noodle

No More

Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree that holding something over a persons head post forgiveness is unethical [and the court agrees too]..contradictory really..but let's not make the blanket assumption that attempts to recover automatically equal having forgiven the offense.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which part is contradictory?

I don't assume attempts at recovery equal forgiveness. However, I don't really see how an attempt at recovery could have any success without forgiveness.

That's not even the point I was trying to get across. I was referring to a D down the road a few years, being initiated by the BS, because the BS NOW says they can't get past the A, and wants out. I think that is just plain wrong, IF the BS formerly gave forgiveness and said they wanted the M~~the A is in the past~~so if there is to be a D NOW, it should be for other, current reasons, not for prior, forgiven sins.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Autumn Day:
That's not even the point I was trying to get across. I was referring to a D down the road a few years, being initiated by the BS, because the BS NOW says they can't get past the A, and wants out. I think that is just plain wrong, IF the BS formerly gave forgiveness and said they wanted the M~~the A is in the past~~so if there is to be a D NOW, it should be for other, current reasons, not for prior, forgiven sins. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If they can't get past the affair then I don't think its "plain wrong". I think what it does say is that they just haven't forgiven yet even though they thought they had.

I don't think forgiveness is something that erases all memory of sin immediately when it happens. The sin will always be there lurking...

Now if you had that time machine or brainwashing drugs that's a whole different story <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Miker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Autumn Day:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree that holding something over a persons head post forgiveness is unethical [and the court agrees too]..contradictory really..but let's not make the blanket assumption that attempts to recover automatically equal having forgiven the offense.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which part is contradictory?

The part where a supposedly forgiven offense is still ammo.

I don't assume attempts at recovery equal forgiveness. However, I don't really see how an attempt at recovery could have any success without forgiveness.

Agree

That's not even the point I was trying to get across. I was referring to a D down the road a few years, being initiated by the BS, because the BS NOW says they can't get past the A, and wants out. I think that is just plain wrong, IF the BS formerly gave forgiveness and said they wanted the M~~the A is in the past~~so if there is to be a D NOW, it should be for other, current reasons, not for prior, forgiven sins. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, hold up just a minute and let's look more closely here. What, precisely, is your issue. What if..I forgive you *personally* but just can not live the rest of my life in this way [and let's not kid ourselves that post A M even compares to one unstained]. In this instance..the REASON for the divorce is exactly what is claimed..and I DO think it is reasonable and ethical. I understand that there is a statute of limitations, but there is nothing *unethical* about ending the M post A..post recovery attempt *because* it was more than you were willing to bear forgiveness notwithstanding. The A may be in the past tense..but the AFFECTS of the A are ever present. If the AFFECTS of the A are intolerable to the BS..then divorce is an ethical recourse and compensation, while unlikely..is entirely justified.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't think this is an aside at all. It gives me a peek into where you're coming from.

Could you expand on this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, but please don't take this as a judgement. It's only intended to be an observation.

Many of your posts have a strong "black and white" feel. You feel VERY strongly about punishing evil. You are very offended by what you perceive as injustice. You sometimes seems very rigid in this view. You seems to view the world in terms of various adversarial situations, requiring you to defend yourself, or execute justice. The concept of grace...undeserved forgiveness...is difficult for you. You have a very strong sense of morality that sometimes makes it hard for you to understand those who find themselves in moral compromise. therefore, your only conclusion is that they must have willfully violated what is an obvious moral code in a pre-meditated manner. Anyone who could do that certainly deserves punishment.

Now, it is my conjecture that you feel certain crimes cannot be completely forgiven. There is nothing that an adulterer/rapist/murderer can do to truly balance his offense. Therefore, the only means of balancing those scales available is to ensure the criminal receives harsh punishment from that moment on. They can never truly be forgiven, because balance can't be achieved.

This is how I would've described myself 6 years ago. I see a lot of that in your posts.

I'm not saying that it's wrong, I'm only suggesting that there are some built in roadblocks to internal peace in this kind of worldview.

I changed because I was faced with a ton of injustice and unfairness that couldn't remedied. The world just wasn't working they way it should have worked. So, I had to adapt.

I don't propose to have it all worked out. I just know that the world is much more colorful than black and white. And that sometimes the scales just don't balance. How will we respond to that?

The answer is grace and mercy.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, hold up just a minute and let's look more closely here. What, precisely, is your issue. What if..I forgive you *personally* but just can not live the rest of my life in this way [and let's not kid ourselves that post A M even compares to one unstained]. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I can answer yours and Miker's at the same time...

My issue, and speaking only of *my situation* in this instance, is this.: My H has forgiven me, freely and fully. He has gone further, and has said he can live the rest of his life, proudly having me as his W, knowing I've committed adultery that produced an OC. Further still, he HAS said he wouldn't trade the M we have now, (stains and all), for the one we had for many years Pre-A.

All of that being said. If some years down the road my H says that NOW he can't be M to me because of the past, I do think that would be plain wrong. If I've not gone back on my promises to remain faithful the rest of my days, how is not wrong for him to go back on his promises that the past is the past, he has forgiven, and wants the M? If there are other grounds for D, that's one thing, but to out of the blue after years of assurances say they NOW want a D because of the A, I still think it's wrong. If the BS hasn't truly forgiven, or even if they have forgiven, but decide they just can't live with it, I think they need to decide this earlier than a few years down the road. Just as I think the WS needs to decide early on, and stick with their decisions and promises as well.

Don't you think it's just as painful for a WS to find out years later they were living under a false recovery, as it is for a BS to find it out?

About the cell phone records.

I don't know if he knows or not...it has never come up. He knows I am a pack rat. He probably would assume I have them. They are part of business payables that I've kept anyway. I doubt he cares. Like I said...they are just 'fact'. The records from '95 -'96 were ordered separately and aren't with the regular business records but at home in a drawer along with letters he wrote to me during that time and a few other related things.

He would like me to be better about getting rid of lots of papers and records in general unrelated to the affairs. I need AA for pack rats.

I have lots of books on infidelity that I am not inclined to part with any time soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Autumn Day:
<strong>
If the BS hasn't truly forgiven, or even if they have forgiven, but decide they just can't live with it, I think they need to decide this earlier than a few years down the road. Just as I think the WS needs to decide early on, and stick with their decisions and promises as well.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think forgiveness is a "decision or promise". You can make an effort to try to forgive and put things past you but it just may just not be possible. It may take some time before you discover this. I'm of the opinion there is no magic "forgiveness switch" but its a process that could span a long period of time. It probably is made more likely by a conscious effort to try to forgive but there are no guarantees.

I will be sure if and when this comes up in my life to make sure I quantify instead of "I forgive you" to say "I will try to forgive you". I really question how much permanance you can guarantee in the initial stages of recovery (or moving on) by "I forgive you."

I love this discussion!

Miker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't think this is an aside at all. It gives me a peek into where you're coming from.

Could you expand on this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, but please don't take this as a judgement. It's only intended to be an observation.

OK

Many of your posts have a strong "black and white" feel. You feel VERY strongly about punishing evil. You are very offended by what you perceive as injustice. You sometimes seems very rigid in this view. You seems to view the world in terms of various adversarial situations, requiring you to defend yourself, or execute justice.

I believe that some situations do..I don't believe that a viable alternative choice is available in these situations.

The concept of grace...undeserved forgiveness...is difficult for you.

No, I internalize this VERY easily..my issue is that once forgiven, it is the tendancy of humanity to smudge the line from underserving..to entitled.

You have a very strong sense of morality that sometimes makes it hard for you to understand those who find themselves in moral compromise.

No, I understand them very well.

therefore, your only conclusion is that they must have willfully violated what is an obvious moral code in a pre-meditated manner.

I believe that the *code* as it were, was violated..sometimes ignorantly..sometimes willfully..usually a combination of the two.

Anyone who could do that certainly deserves punishment.

Anyone who is guilty of the crime deserves the punishment.


Now, it is my conjecture that you feel certain crimes cannot be completely forgiven.

No, I believe that all crimes can be forgiven.

There is nothing that an adulterer/rapist/murderer can do to truly balance his offense.

This is true of pretty much anything that requires forgiveness. If you COULD say sorry and make up for it/replace it..forgiveness would not be necessary. However, forgiveness does not negate or nullify the long term consequences.

Therefore, the only means of balancing those scales available is to ensure the criminal receives harsh punishment from that moment on.

I don't believe that the scales CAN be balanced..therefore continued harsh punishment is pointless.

They can never truly be forgiven, because balance can't be achieved.

I don't see the connection here. I think my above response addresses this.

This is how I would've described myself 6 years ago. I see a lot of that in your posts.

I'm not saying that it's wrong, I'm only suggesting that there are some built in roadblocks to internal peace in this kind of worldview.

I changed because I was faced with a ton of injustice and unfairness that couldn't remedied. The world just wasn't working they way it should have worked. So, I had to adapt.

Injustice is a part of life, can't get around it. Calling injustice by it's name and exposing it is not unreasonable.

I don't propose to have it all worked out. I just know that the world is much more colorful than black and white. And that sometimes the scales just don't balance. How will we respond to that?

LO, the ISSUE though *us* black and white..either it is acceptable or not..there IS no neutral ground on some issues. You may chose to be merciful to the PERSON..but it does not alter the issue one iota.

The answer is grace and mercy.

Grace and mercy is appropriate in the case of a contrite and repented FORMER enemy. A person who is STILL attacking you does not qualify unless of course you choose to be martyred, it's a viable option, but not one to be undertaken lightly.

Thanks for taking the time, I always enjoy hearing your thoughts. Noodle

Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Autumn Day:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, hold up just a minute and let's look more closely here. What, precisely, is your issue. What if..I forgive you *personally* but just can not live the rest of my life in this way [and let's not kid ourselves that post A M even compares to one unstained]. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I can answer yours and Miker's at the same time...

My issue, and speaking only of *my situation* in this instance, is this.: My H has forgiven me, freely and fully. He has gone further, and has said he can live the rest of his life, proudly having me as his W, knowing I've committed adultery that produced an OC. Further still, he HAS said he wouldn't trade the M we have now, (stains and all), for the one we had for many years Pre-A.

AD, this is great news for you..and if your H knew his mind and heart well enough to make such a commitment..so much the better..yes..divorcing you now and claiming inability to recover WOULD be breaching that promise..however, if it were to occur..that promise is irrelevant to the divorce [not legally of course]..if he is unable to live with it despite his projections..then he is unable to live with it and nothing to be done.

All of that being said. If some years down the road my H says that NOW he can't be M to me because of the past, I do think that would be plain wrong.

Why *wrong*..so he thought he could look your OC in the face every day and he can't. He tried to be proud of you but he isn't.

If I've not gone back on my promises to remain faithful the rest of my days, how is not wrong for him to go back on his promises that the past is the past, he has forgiven, and wants the M?

IMO, it *is* wrong to go back on that promise..so much better to have never made such an oath. The promise and the recovery are two separate issues.

If there are other grounds for D, that's one thing, but to out of the blue after years of assurances say they NOW want a D because of the A, I still think it's wrong.

If the adultery is TRULY the cause and not just a convenient excuse..then what is wrong about it?

If the BS hasn't truly forgiven, or even if they have forgiven, but decide they just can't live with it, I think they need to decide this earlier than a few years down the road.

The trouble with this statement..is that until the BS has TRIED to recover..they can't know whether it will work long term or not. You are still linking recovery and forgiveness.

Just as I think the WS needs to decide early on, and stick with their decisions and promises as well.

Um, yeah. Too bad they didn't adopt that practice earlier as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Don't you think it's just as painful for a WS to find out years later they were living under a false recovery, as it is for a BS to find it out? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure that it is painfull, but the pain is irrelevant. Noodle

QUOTE]I don't think forgiveness is a "decision or promise". You can make an effort to try to forgive and put things past you but it just may just not be possible. It may take some time before you discover this. I'm of the opinion there is no magic "forgiveness switch" but its a process that could span a long period of time. It probably is made more likely by a conscious effort to try to forgive but there are no guarantees.

I will be sure if and when this comes up in my life to make sure I quantify instead of "I forgive you" to say "I will try to forgive you". I really question how much permanance you can guarantee in the initial stages of recovery (or moving on) by "I forgive you."

I love this discussion!

Miker [/QB][/QUOTE]

Maybe that's why we're having a little difficulty understanding one another...See, I do happen to think forgiveness is a decision, and I don't think it's a process either. It's a choice we make of our own free will. Either we've forgiven, or we have not. I learned this from my H. I've always been *slow* to forgive~~always looking for conditions to be met by the offender, or taking my own sweet time in forgiving, just because I thought it was my right. My H's swift and free forgiveness taught me otherwise.

NOW, I DO agree that recovery, earning and granting trust, earning and granting respect, to name a few are all a process, and occur gradually.

Back to the whole forgiveness thing though...Where do we receive our greatest and truest examples of forgiveness from? I happen to believe from God. I'm not saying anyone can BE like Him, ever~~it's not possible, but I do think we are to strive to be like Him, if indeed we are a Christian. Imagine if God said I forgive you Miker, but 5 years down the road says, "you know what Miker, I don't think I can forgive you after all...", and then proceeds to use your previous, and supposedly forgiven sins against you?

We are humans, and I want to make clear that while I believe forgiveness is a choice, I don't believe that just because we forgive we have to live in a situation nor stay in a M we just don't think we can live in because of the A. I really think the two are separate. We forgive, because we are called to forgive. We are not called to stay in a M where is adultery has been committed. Although, there are some that would say the only reason for D because of adultery, is in a case of *unrepented* adultery.

I too love the discussion! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

~ad

Yes I think we have two different perspectives of what forgiveness means. I see it as the place you eventually end up rather than a committment to get to that place.

Also comparing us mortals to God I think is pretty unrealistic. Of course God can instantly say "Your forgiven" and it happens, he is God. But I don't think it is quite that simple for us mere mortals.

I guess that you and I have differing opinions doesn't really matter since I don't need to forgive you or vice versa. Just as long as you and your H both agree on that "forgiveness" is a promise he's made to you, I'm cool with that.

I wouldn't be comfortable offering that promise since I think its like offering a promise like "I promise you I will win the lottery tomorrow". You just don't know until you get there... but maybe in your case you are there? How long have you been in recovery?

Miker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:

Why *wrong*..so he thought he could look your OC in the face every day and he can't. He tried to be proud of you but he isn't.

Wrong because he promised to love me and OUR oc. He promised me he can and is getting past it. Wrong because he said by his forgiveness, the slate is now clean. Meaning he will never use it against me. Please understand though noodle, when I say it's wrong, I don't mean he cannot go back on all that he promised. He's human, and he may just not be able to do what he thought he could. There would be nothing I could do about it. Well, there's things I could try, but you know what I mean. I still see it as wrong. As wrong as what I did? Not in the eyes of man, not in the eyes of the courts, not in my eyes either--but in the eyes of God--I think so.


IMO, it *is* wrong to go back on that promise..so much better to have never made such an oath. The promise and the recovery are two separate issues.

I'm sorry--sometimes I'm a little slow, (not used to this much dialogue on P/C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), could you please explain your first sentence?

I do understand the 2nd sentence, and I agree too. Forgiving, and making promises, does not equal recovery, but still I believe if recovery is to happen each party should be able to put weight into the words of the other. If the BS cannot forgive, then say so. If the BS is going to say, "I forgive", I would hope the BS thought it through enough to know they mean it, because the WS probably believes the BS meant it.



[i]If the adultery is TRULY the cause and not just a convenient excuse..then what is wrong about it?

Because if the BS TRULY forgave and said the past is the past, it shouldn't be the cause any longer. I know this is polyannish sounding, even as I'm typing it, cause I know in reality, some people do discover years later they cannot live with the fact their spouse committed adultery. That's why I think BS need to think long and hard before making any promises.

[I formerly posted]:If the BS hasn't truly forgiven, or even if they have forgiven, but decide they just can't live with it, I think they need to decide this earlier than a few years down the road.

The trouble with this statement..is that until the BS has TRIED to recover..they can't know whether it will work long term or not. You are still linking recovery and forgiveness.

No, I don't think I'm linking. I think I just expain my thoughts poorly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I do think though, if a BS makes promises to stay, they shouldn't make them lightly. Maybe the key is to POJA that no promises will be made till X amount of time passes~~see how recovery goes, etc?

[I formerly posted]:Just as I think the WS needs to decide early on, and stick with their decisions and promises as well.

Um, yeah. Too bad they didn't adopt that practice earlier as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I know~~so very true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Too bad the past can't be changed either. How I wish I could go back and relive my life. What we're talking about here though, is the life we're presented with Post adultery. What decisions are we making now? How are we going to deal with our spouse and our M now?

[I formerly posted]: Don't you think it's just as painful for a WS to find out years later they were living under a false recovery, as it is for a BS to find it out? [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure that it is painfull, but the pain is irrelevant. Noodle [/QB][/QUOTE]

How is the pain irrelevant? The pain a BS feels certainly isn't irrelevant when they find out the recovery they thought they were in is false. I, in turn as a FWW would be devastated if I found out the recovery I think I'm in is actually false.

I don't think anyone's pain is irrelevant. [/i]

~ad

ps. I apologize for my sloppy posting. You'd think I'd be better at doing quotes, bold, etc. by now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:

In my opinion, restoring a relationship starts with rebuilding respect for each other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree 1000% <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Getting there to the point of mutual respect .... that is where the debate kicks in.

I know for myself , I could not and would not have tried "recovery" without some measure of respect for my H.

He earned my respect by ending the A immediately, and confessing to the OW's husband in person.

Without that gutsy effort on his part, I would have walked immediately.

Pep