First, very good points on all sides.
You should All be proud. An all around pleasant discussion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From Autumn Day:
Don't you think it's just as painful for a WS to find out years later they were living under a false recovery, as it is for a BS to find it out?

I think they need to decide this earlier than a few years down the road.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guess my take on that would be this:

I am currently IN the Process of recovering my M and recovering Myself.
This Process could take many many years.

After all my W got the benefit of approximately 3 1/2 - 4 years to "decide" what she really wanted.
IMO the BS should get the same kind of time frame. (or as the injured party, even more so)

This doesn't mean that the BS is leading the WS on, or playing games.
No, just that they have some major decisions to work through (and unfortunately many of them Cannot be made UNTIL they are back living day to day).

So I don't consider it lying to them, IF I truly Have Not made a decision yet.
(That is as long as that is the answer I do give them, ie...."I'm not sure yet"...."I'm still working on This", ect).....is what I really mean.
You know : not playing games or giving them a false sense of where we're heading.

With that said, IF the BS IS still undecided (at some level).....then they shouldn't be making HUGE promises that may/may not come to pass.
(Such as plans for the future).

However, don't assume that just because say 2 years into "attempting" to recover, a BS decides that its just not working and they want out .......that somehow this was an attempt to defraud or deceive.

On this issue (actually "wanting" the M and deciding the grass isn't greener).....the WS is usually waaaaaay out in front of the BS in coming to this conclusion.
After all they've already "been there, done that" as far as comparison shopping.....so IF the WS does come back, its more likely because they really want to.

Unfortunately, its now the BS turn to Have to Decide what they want (and what is really BEST for them).
Figuring this out can take a Long Time.

As a result, unless we're talking 6-10 years out.....then most BS are STILL actively trying to recover.
This means it is an Ongoing Process.

In addition, it implies that we haven't 100% made the choice as to what we are going to do. {Even though every day still together gets us closer to that answer>>>>>]

Its not that I'm lying (by ommision)......its just that I don't have that "ultimate" answer yet, and I don't feel its fair to try and back me in a corner ....and be Forced to make a choice that I'm not Yet Ready to make (at least NOT at this point).

As a BS I can't help it if my WS wants this process to "hurry up".
Sorry it just doesn't work like that. [at least not with me]

Basically to any BS...just don't go making promises or saying things to your WS just to make them FEEL better.
IMO Its better in the long run (that if you DON'T Know, or are Not Sure on Any topic) to just say so.
Your answer may make your WS uncomfortable...but at least your Not lowering yourself by becoming a Liar as well.

**************************************************
Lastly, I haven't told my W that I forgive her OR that we are definitely going to remain married.

My answer is that I am actively working on myself and attempting to find the ways in which I CAN get to those places.
So I have NOT lied to her or lead her on (at least through words).

If she infers that by my working on the M (which I am) means I am 100% sure we will Not get a D because of her Infidelity, then she is wrong.

We're still working on that part.

Because when I do tell her she is forgiven.....I WANT to truly mean it .....and that means NOT bringing it up anymore, but more importantly NOT having any more resentment about it (deep down inside myself).

The Not bringing it up I can do Now (took a while, but I'm there )......the not having resentment part, Still working on that.

Basically I don't want to give an "Indian" forgiveness(you know, say it just to make our current "now" calmer)......cause I wouldn't want that if the roles were reversed.
(Not that I'd have an A, but everyone needs forgiving for some transgression).

My goodness, there is So Much that can be brought out in this thread.
Good Job Guys!
However, I gotta run.
Keep up the nice discussion. It is interesting!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wouldn't be comfortable offering that promise since I think its like offering a promise like "I promise you I will win the lottery tomorrow". You just don't know until you get there... but maybe in your case you are there? How long have you been in recovery?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, but for my H it's totally different than promising me he'll win the lottery tomorrow. He claims he DOES know. When I say that, I don't mean he claims to know what the future holds. I mean that he says his promises are the same today as they were on the day he made vows to me~~our wedding day. He says he has every INTENTION to continue to keep them, even though I at one time did NOT keep mine to him. Everything in our lives have changed because of the sin I committed, and yet he says his promises to me have not changed. Trust me, I ask him more times than he cares to hear me ask, if he really means it. I ask him if he's just saying that, and then when our bio children go to college he'll leave me. Stuff like that. He assures me his word is real, and I need to take him seriously. He jokes and says if anyone shouldn't trust the other's word, it is he.

No, I wouldn't say we are *there* yet, because I wonder if anyone should ever say they're completely recovered, you know. I think a M is a living breathing thing that continually needs to be nurtured and guarded. To say we're there, to me, is akin to leaving the M unprotected. The thing is though, my H was willing to forgive, and to say he wants me, EVEN without the guarantee of a recovered M. He didn't wait to find out if the M would recover, he just believed it would, and that it had a better chance by forgiving me. He also said he was being obedient to God in forgiving me. That's what I meant about striving to be Christ *like*. NOT being like God, we can't be...but trying to be how He wants us to be.

To answer your last question, it has been 22 months since D-Day.

AD,

Hey, I can't do quotes at all..and I'm sure not going to have..is it triplicate now[?] to be able to address each individual point..so I'm just going to try and address the points as well as I can from memory.

Let's see. Your basic premise is that it is wrong for your H to break his promise..and I agree. What I am saying, is that in the absense of such a promise..there is nothing *wrong* with coming to terms with NOT being able to recover the marriage to your satisfaction. It may TAKE several years of trying for the BS to be willing to concede defeat on this issue. Breaking an oath and chosing to opt out of recovery are two different issues. In my case, I do forgive, but only recently was I willing to make the decision to live with the life long affects of his A.

As for the OC..it is YOUR oc..and can be his adopted child..but there is NO SUCH CREATURE as *our* OC. This has to do with that line smudging I mentioned earlier.

Lets see..you said..if the BS truly forgave..and the past is past..it shouldn't be the cause any longer..

I would respond..that no, it isn't Pollyannaish so much as confusing the issues..while closely related, they are not the same.

Forgiving is about you and the offense you committed.

Being unable to recover is about me and the impact that the A has had on my life.

So you see, how easily forgiveness can exist without recovery..although the reverse is not true, I agree.

Uhm..you asked how the pain of discovering you have been in a false recovery is irrelevant.

My response is that for one..it shouldn't be a suprise if RH has been in place..and second pain is nothing more than a reaction to what is REALLY taking place. What is taking place is one possible, logical, conclusion to an A afflicted marriage..therefore, the pain, while no less moving, is not relevant to the decision to divorce and does not make the decision *wrong*.

Noodle

I couldn't agree more, top rope. You're being up front with your WS and telling her it will take time. You're not making any promises you know you may not be able to keep.

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

First, let me say, if I had as good a short term memory as you, I wouldn't even have to try to mess with quotes and the like. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Secondly, I think I'm getting what you're saying better now. Thanks for the clarification.

I've agreed that a M does NOT have to remain intact simply because the BS was able to forgive. So I don't believe I'm confusing the issues. Maybe I should've started this whole dialogue by qualifying that I'm talking about my situation and others where the BS has promised they are going to stay no matter what and if it comes to a D at a later date, it would be for other reasons. Much like the promises we made on our wedding day. It is CLEARLY wrong to go back on those. I'm merely questioning why is it NOT wrong to back on a promise between spouses at ANY point in the M?

Okay, now I admit your reference to our OC being an *it*, and your comment about *NO SUCH CREATURE* stung, but I made my bed, and I've also certainly been around here long enough to have a fairly thick skin. So, I know you probably meant there is no such CHILD who is OUR OC. The only reason I made a point to say OUR OC is because that's exactly who he is *to our M*. My H doesn't see him as mine, he sees him as ours. He also doesn't see himself as the adoptive parent. In fact, referring to him as an OC at all is offensive to my H, and he gets pissed if I ever say it. I have absolutely NO problem with referring to him as an OC for purposes here. I don't even have a problem with saying his MY OC, because of course, he is. Just trying to explain how we as a couple view him. The labels on this forum, to me are necessary as a point of reference. To ask that he be called a C of the M would be as absurd as me asking to be called a BW. I'm sorry I went on about this~~maybe your words are stinging more than I thought, that's my fault.

Lastly, I never said it was wrong of a BS to go back on his word to remain in the M, because it would create pain for the WS. I said it's wrong because they have gone back on a promise they made.

AD,

Yes, that's pretty much what I thought.

That your issue was with breaking an oath..and why is it OK to break one and not another..well, it isn't. Not in my opinion.

So, in YOUR situation, because your H has made such an oath...[or mine because I have as well] it would be wrong to divorce on grounds of adultery.

About the OC..I completely understand, and if it were me..I too would be offended by reminders that the child isn't mine.

Noodle

It took us long enough to see what each other was trying to say, hey? Us women!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

See what I mean about thick skin too? Your last comment hardly phased me at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Especially because I think you misunderstood. My H doesn't find the term offensive because "OC" is a reminder the child isn't his, but because he truly does not view him as anyone other than his son. He thinks it's an insult to our child, not an insulting reminder to him. I don't expect you or anyone else to believe the depths of love he has for this boy. Hell, I still can't hardly believe it myself. Short of him coming on here and posting it himself, if I were you I'd find it hard to believe.

BTW~ No DNA ever done, and no plans to do so. A slim, small chance baby is his biologically. H says though, he's faced reality, baby most likely isn't *his*, and is assuming he is not, but makes no difference.

Low~ I apologize for getting your thread OT. I loved the premise, sorry to mess it up for you.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> AD

Now you misunderstand me.

If I had made the HUGE jump..and put in the effort, investment, sacrifice to build a parent relationship with an OC..then that OC *is* mine [damnit] and no one had ever better suggest otherwise if they know what is good for them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Autumn Day:
<strong>See, but for my H it's totally different than promising me he'll win the lottery tomorrow. He claims he DOES know. When I say that, I don't mean he claims to know what the future holds. I mean that he says his promises are the same today as they were on the day he made vows to me~~our wedding day. He says he has every INTENTION to continue to keep them, even though I at one time did NOT keep mine to him. Everything in our lives have changed because of the sin I committed, and yet he says his promises to me have not changed. Trust me, I ask him more times than he cares to hear me ask, if he really means it. I ask him if he's just saying that, and then when our bio children go to college he'll leave me. Stuff like that. He assures me his word is real, and I need to take him seriously. He jokes and says if anyone shouldn't trust the other's word, it is he.
</strong>
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's great that he has found that place. I'm sure it has been a struggle for him to get there. I applaud him for being able to reach that point and you for doing your part to aid him in his journey. Some day I hope to be there too.

Miker

Ahhhhhh...I see, noodle...

Then please forgive my defensiveness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And yup, that's what I meant, H gets offended if even *I* dare refer to the child as *anyone's OC*--thus back full circle to my *OUR OC* comment, (to which he'd even be offended by that term). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

See one of the promises or oaths *I* made to my H on d-day, was that we were going to raise this child as our own, as an equal member in this family, and every bit as important to us as our own C. This is what *he* asked of me.

Now I'm getting loopy, best run for the day. Not to mention, I just apologized to Low for TJ, best I shut up for the day as well!

Great talking to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

Just to get back to the original question...

Is it worth recovering the marriage if the relationship isn't recovered, ie if the infidelity is held against the WS for ever after?

Can I put this the other way round? Is it worth saving the relationship with your spouse, if it means not saving the marriage?

In other words...what if the BS finds it in themself to 'forgive' the spouse, ie to resolve not to hold onto resentment and bitterness, to accept that the WS's life skills were not adequate to hold to the marital committment under specific pressures...yet also concludes that this makes the marriage untenable in the long term? What if the BS reasons that they would prefer to establish a relationship of respect with the WS, but that they are unable to do this if they are still having to trust to a committment which has already been broken?

What would WS's prefer? To be forgiven, or to maintain the marriage?

TogetherAlone

That's a good twist TA.

Naturally the best of the best would be to be forgiven, restore the relationship AND the M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Seriously though, if you're saying "maintaining the M" equals no relationship and no forgiveness then yes, I prefer the forgiveness. I cannot imagine a M without a relationship. How very sad. Last thing I want to do is make him more miserable.

Heck on D-Day, as a WW, I was happy for anything he gave me, even a glimmer of hope. IMO, we waywards are in no position to ask for anything at that point in time.

~ad