My wife still denies anything was inappropraite with her relationship EA (PA?). I want her to open up and tell me about her relationship. I don't think I'm affraid of her grenades (I'm leaving, Its over) any more. But I'm sure she'll attempt to evade the topic. When is the time right to ask about something she denies happened?

Here's a sample letter I found that seems to say what I feel:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand no one wants to have a mistake or misjudgement thrown in his/her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to look at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now how much I love him/her. I can see how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view reality through my eyes.
You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you carry all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or questions. You carry all the STUFF to figure out our reality. There isn't any information, or pieces to the puzzle that YOU don't have.
Now lets enter my reality. Lets both agree that this effects both our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is will effect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the A that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of the A, just like you. I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand why it nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically, I doubt our lives will ever feel complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me, don't worry about it. Its not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle, you say what's the difference, its not important. Then later when I'm expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the same way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you choose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way about it as you.
So you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in you heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know comes from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think we can move effectively forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealously. It doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love YOU. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to just walk away? wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? of course it would, but i can't and the reason I can't is because I LOVE YOU and that reason itself makes all the difference in the world.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems fairly benign, but I still have reservations about sending it to her.

Thoughts?

Mark,

I have tried the same thing with my WS (EA). She will only admit to the evidence that I found (email) and then she said she was sending emails to see if I was spying!!!

Sorry but I doubt that she will admit to anything because she doesn't have a clue what you are going through. If she trully understood your pain, then maybe she would tell you.

In short, I would not treat a dog the way a BS gets treated.

Mark I have been told when they are ready they will answer questions. I am trying to come up with a list of questions that I can ask. I was told when they feel safe they will tell. Mine tells me some pretty vague answers. He is withholding because I got angrey - need to stop that. I am getting much better. It will be hard to hear are you ready for that. I have gotten to the point where I just feel that nothing would surprise me anymore. Sad huh ? how about you ?

I think nothing can surprise me. I've probably thought worse things than what actually happened. I have this intuition much more happened than she lets onto. However having suspicions acknowledged may be a hard pill to swallow.

Then what if she comes back with nothing happened and is actually honest about it? She tells me the god honest truth, will I believe it? Has to be some good details either way. I'd also be disbelieving if she came out and said yeah we 'f**d everyday'.

I just wonder how to approach the whole issue. She knows it's coming and isn't at all looking forward to it. Would you?

What will be the situation - us sitting speachless in the den and me saying 'so honey give he the full story about you and OM.' I don't know where to begin.

When is a good time to ask about the A?

Depends on who you ask. Ifyou ask my FWH...he'd say "Never". You ask me, my answer would be...when I am ready.

The timing for me is when we are relaxing, I am stroking his hair, when he feels safe, I'm not out ot harm him, or joke, and I will ask one or two very specific quesitons, then drop it. I've been doing this about once a month for the past 2 years... (Oh holy cow...2nd anniversary of d-day just past and I missed it...)

The key here is, when YOU want to hear it. You have to be clear with her you don't want to ask these questions to hurt her or to accuse her...but for YOUR benefit...that is the hardest thing to convince the FWS of...

Mark,
This is the age old question.

As StillHereMakingIt so aptly put it, 90% of FWS would answer that question with, "never."

Most FWSs want to put the affair behind them asap. I think you need to appeal to this desire. You need to sit your wife down and ask her if she'll do anything to help recover the marriage.

She should say anything. You then proceed to tell her that you need info. You can had her the letter above (commonly known as Joseph's letter)

Tell her it puts into words what you are thinking. Tell her that this is not uncoomon. Every other BS in the world needs this info as well.

The "why's" of the affair are especially important. Otherwise you may fall back into the same pattern and repeat it.

Some IC's liken the BS's reaction to infidelity as a mild form of PTSD. Of course major cases are what war veterans or plane crash survivors experience. Major flashbacks. Depression etc.

These victims also have a very strong desire to fill in the missing pieces. That's why veterans get to gether and go over the same battle 50 years later. That's why plane or car crash survivors tell their story to whomever will listen. There are even organizations of victims from specific flights. They get together. They feel as though their fellow passengers on that flight are the only ones who can understand them. In their idle time they will go thru the trama frame by frame.

BS also go fram by frame and try to understand. Unfortunately it's a made up story if no details have been given. Until the real story comes out the video loop will continue.

If partial lies are told to hide the truth your mind will run over these discrepencies and pick them to pieces.

There was thread here earlier that gave generalizations about how male and female FWS react and what they will disclose. Men usually have no problem disclosing the sex but find it difficult to express the emoption. Women are just the opposite. They can express the emotion to the point of giving us men a headache (just kidding ladies) but they refuse to tell the truth about whether there was sex.

I think women decide that we men can't handle the truth. That is a very patronizing belief. It delays recovery.

My wife refused to answer any questions

She finally admitted that "based upon that Book (Not Just Friends)" that she had had a EA.

The fact s just didn't fit. So a year later I was still processing. She finally realized that she needed to get the truth out. "Yes it was physical."

The continued lies crushed me more than the truth about the sex. I had assumed it had happened and was trying to deal with it.

I just discovered a whole new set of lies. It's been 3 years since DDay1 and I discovered that they had had a secret friendship our entire marriage. It sent me nearly back to square one.

I hate to say this but I think your W will lie about the sex regardless of what you say to her. Just assume it happened if the A was at least 3 months in duration and if they had the oppurtunity.

Mac