OK, I called WH and basically chewed him out royally. I know it was breaking plan B, LB'ing... But I was so frusrated and worried about what to do about financial and transportation problems that I caved to the temptation to just vent at him.

He called back a little while later and said he was sorry for everything that happened and that he has not like himself for the past three years. He wants to reconcile and agrees he will have to go to counseling, learn how to repair the damage, and take responsibility for recover or marriage.

But he added that he didn't want to move back to this area and he wants to stop the divorce.

Now that's a problem because I have agreed to delay the divorce before only to find out it was a mistake. And I will not move myself and daughters to be with him until after we are totally convinced he's reformed.

Because he is a serial adulterer, has some serious problems that need to be addressed, and we've already tried reconciliation so many times before with no permanent success, I do not want to rush into anything.

I want to take things REALLY slowly, starting with counseling, him reading and discussing some books with me, and him posting here for education and guidance (I will probably remove my posts first and just observe).

Also, I'm afraid he might just be feeling guilty and/or lonely right now because of the loss of OW, recent move, and new job. I do not want to be his temporary soft place to land between affairs!

He just sent this e-mail to me:

I bet you can figure out which parts of his message I'm not too happy about...

(nickname for me),

I'm going to start behaving like none of what happened, happened...

So,

The new engine has been ordered and the truck will be back in service in about a week. This weekend I'll come to (my town) and we can go grocery shopping and what not.

I feel better.

Love,
(WH)

Now I feel really anxious (not about the car anymore though LOL).

Even though WH said he agrees he will need help with recovery and that he will have to go to counseling, I'm afraid he's going to expect things from me before I feel safe enough to give anything to him. I don't think I will be ready to trust in him or the recovery until I see lots of things actually happening. He said in his e-mail that he plans to come see us this weekend. I think that's too soon unless he does lots of things this week to start the recovery process. I told him I need to see him taking responsibility for recovery and he agreed.
What I want and need him to do right now is to ask for some specific books/info, to ask me what I need him to do or say, to contact the OW and his family to tell them the truth, etc. Should I give him a reminder list or should I just wait and see what he says/does? I don't feel too comfortable with waiting until he gets here to discuss the details! I'm thinking I should ask him for a list of specific things he is willing to do BEFORE I see him in person.

I dread trying to explain to our daughters if he comes for a visit this weekend. I can't just start spending time with him or let him stay here overnight! I want to respond to his e-mail letting him know very clearly that he has a lot of work to do between now and this weekend if he wants to come for a visit. I also think it should be his responsibility to tell our daughters and try to get their support for his reconciliation effort. I am in no position or mood to defend him to our daughters.

I want the recovery program I found at the following link to be part of his education and counseling for recovery:
http://www2.oprah.com/relationships...l?contentId=con_20041103_drstosny_03.xml

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Need feedback ASAP on what to e-mail back to WH.

I do NOT want to let him play me for a fool again!

Suggestions on what to say to clarify he has to actually DO some things this week - not just show up this weekend!?!?

Maybe I should e-mail something back like:

WOW!!! You must really be serious this time if you are going to get everything done so we can trust you again before this weekend! How do you plan to explain it to our daughters and assure them this is not just another false recovery? Do you have a recovery plan written out to show us? Have you written the no contact letter to the OW yet? What did your family think when you told them the truth? How did you get a counseling appointment so fast?

I apologize for not knowing your story better. I feel like I see enough to at least offer a thought or too, while you are feeling anxious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I know what it's like to want some immediate feedback.

I really really really don't think you should jump into this right now.

There I said it.

#1 - You shouldn't have called him and chewed him out. His "decision" to come back to you is a response to that event. Momma cracked the whip, and still cares about me, so I'll tell her I'll be good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

#2 - You NEED to get an agreement in place. Everyone told me this before my false recovery. I didn't. You NEED to get an agreement in place. Shall I say it again? Did your Plan B letter outline what you needed in order to regain contact?

#3 - Listen to yourself. You have doubts, as we all do, but you say that he is a serial cheater, and you've had false recoveries in the past.

There's nothing wrong with taking some time to think about this, getting LOTS of feedback here, and IMHO, sending him a letter or e-mail to the effect "perhaps I jumped the gun... this is what I need in order to let you back into my life... this is what I need in order to rebuild trust..."

I know others will be along soon. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in.

WOW -thank you for this site it is now in my favorites. Hope it helps you.

Hi Mortal:

I posted over on DD, but there is more detail here so I have a little different take.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He called back a little while later and said he was sorry for everything that happened and that he has not like himself for the past three years. He wants to reconcile and agrees he will have to go to counseling, learn how to repair the damage, and take responsibility for recover or marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Positive response!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But he added that he didn't want to move back to this area and he wants to stop the divorce.

Now that's a problem because I have agreed to delay the divorce before only to find out it was a mistake. And I will not move myself and daughters to be with him until after we are totally convinced he's reformed.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stick to your boundaries - but have (and show) a little faith (not trust).

Totally agree about move.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he is a serial adulterer, has some serious problems that need to be addressed, and we've already tried reconciliation so many times before with no permanent success, I do not want to rush into anything.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agree with not rushing. What do you think the problem is with no "permanent success"?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, I'm afraid he might just be feeling guilty and/or lonely right now because of the loss of OW, recent move, and new job. I do not want to be his temporary soft place to land between affairs!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Possible. Can you ask him via email w/o LB?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to start behaving like none of what happened, happened...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what he actually means by this. It could be that he is saying he wants to start over w/you; with the knowledge that he will attend MC, IC, etc. It could also be alien-dribble. Not sure - are you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I want and need him to do right now is to ask for some specific books/info, to ask me what I need him to do or say, to contact the OW and his family to tell them the truth, etc. Should I give him a reminder list or should I just wait and see what he says/does? I don't feel too comfortable with waiting until he gets here to discuss the details! I'm thinking I should ask him for a list of specific things he is willing to do BEFORE I see him in person.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL!!! Men are from Mars...

Take it from a man; give him a detailed list of your requirements before-hand, ASAP. Don't set him up to fail by "hoping" he will do what you want. If he objects to anything on the list; no deal-no visit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I want and need him to do right now is to ask for some specific books/info, to ask me what I need him to do or say, to contact the OW and his family to tell them the truth, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All reasonable requests; except for your need for him to know to ask. I realize it would be ideal for you; but please don't go there. He (along with millions of other men) will probably fail. Also NC should be in writing, you OK the text, and you mail it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I dread trying to explain to our daughters if he comes for a visit this weekend. I can't just start spending time with him or let him stay here overnight! I want to respond to his e-mail letting him know very clearly that he has a lot of work to do between now and this weekend if he wants to come for a visit. I also think it should be his responsibility to tell our daughters and try to get their support for his reconciliation effort. I am in no position or mood to defend him to our daughters.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't explain to DD's. Set clear boundaries for WH and share with DD's that this is a baby-step and that you have no expectations. Yes; he should talk to your DD's. (Tell him this!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want the recovery program I found at the following link to be part of his education and counseling for recovery:
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell him this is one of your requirements. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Remember MM: You're in the driver's seat. I'm worried that you're expecting him to almost read your mind. That is never good for men; particularly one who has screwed up so badly. Give your R a break and be frank with him about boundaries, requirements and desires. The "sweet-nothings" will come after recon! Good Luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FR
FR

bumping up for more feedback

Should I send WH here for instruction on how to make this recovery attempt different from all those failed recovery attempts in the past?

IMHO he needs to be whacked by some 2X4 slinging regulars for saying he just wants to proceed as if none of this ever happened!!!!!

Does he imagine I'm thrilled he invited himself to come visit this weekend?!?!?

If he tried to do something like hug me with that attitude I'd probably respond by smacking him - and I don't mean smack with a kiss!

Somebody needs to give this boy that Dr. Phil look...

I think you are making the same mistake I made in my R with WH/FWH I tried to meet him halfway...and ended up going over the border of halfway...

The burden of proof is upon him. You have spelled out in your Plan B letter what needs to be done...no need to hammer it home anymore...the more you say it and nag about it, the less likely he will do it. He really has to recover for the M and for hte R rather than to do what he thinks he needs to do to please you.

How about a simple note like...

Your last email has given me hope that you really want to recover, but I need more than words...

DEFINITELY leave it to him to come up with a plan...do NOT do this for him...

He may come back with a..."But what do I Dooooooo?"

You can gently lead him with a..."I gave you a letter a while back that stated my needs for recovery, but the actual implementation, and how you are going to do it, is up to you. I can't live your life or make decisions for you, this has to be YOU. And only when I am convinced things are REALLY going to change, can we talk about recovery."

He WILL try to throw it back at you, don't fall for it. He KNOWS what he needs to do, he wants to negotiate the terms...he knows what he's willing to do...

The burden of convincing you is upon him. Don't let that hope trip you up and beleive the words without actions...and DON'T tell him what to do. He is perfectly capable of coming up with a plan all his own...

One thing I told my WH was that I was full of hurt and anger, and he should know this before coming back that I would get angry and ask questions and is that what he wants to come back to?

I read you last post on DD. For simplicity; I'll stay here on GQ2.

I do not think you and WH are on the same page about recon. It sounds like he has a different view on coming back than you do on receiving him. I suggest that you 86 the visit this weekend.

I do not have a feel for the level of desire that you have for reconciliation. I can also tell you that WH is not all that dedicated to making changes at this time. For him to say that he "just wants to treat you like OW" is not only a slap in the face, but is also ridiculous.

Make a written, detailed outline of your expectations (requirements), desires (not required - but would be nice) and boundaries (required). Only "desires" are negotiable but be sure your list is reasonable. Present the list to him in writing, (email is fine) but not in person and see how he responds. If his response is not favorable; you are no worse off than you are right now. If you give in to him now with the mindset that he currently has; you will be disappointed and another false-recovery will occur. Good Luck.

FR

Hi FishRacer (who won?)

"Stick to your boundaries - but have (and show) a little faith (not trust)."

In the past I've had far too much faith that he could change. I have faith in God, faith that my WH can be helped, IF he seeks help. I can't show any more trust after so many times being burned and the damage done to me and my daughters. He will have to do a lot to regain trust. Simply flirting and turning on the charm with me will NOT do it!

"What do you think the problem is with no "permanent success"?"

In the past he has never really taken responsibility for his words and actions. He will say he's sorry, it was his fault, he feels ashamed of how he hurt me, he will never do it again... He will even say he will go to counseling, stop flirting at work, not go out to lunch with female coworkers, etc. BUT he never makes those changes. He has never in the past admitted the OW did anything wrong. Today he at least admitted that much (but I don't know if he will go back to the putting the OW up on a pedestal attitude) So in the past, he's never taken the responsibility to learn how to prevent another affair, to stay out of those situations...

He doesn't do anything positive to work on the relationship either. He acts romantic just long enough to win me back and then just tunes me out and neglects me again. He says we don't need to date or talk about our relationship because 'don't fix it if it's not broke'. I think this is what he meant by saying he will treat me like he does the OW, that he will continue to romance me and not just veg out in front of the tv again.

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to start behaving like none of what happened, happened...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure what he actually means by this. It could be that he is saying he wants to start over w/you; with the knowledge that he will attend MC, IC, etc. It could also be alien-dribble. Not sure - are you?"

Well in all past recovery attempts he said this
too. And it became apparent all those times that he really wanted me to pretend he never had an affair. I was never to mention it, and he certainly never brought it up. He didn't want to go to counseling with me to discuss why the affairs happened and what needed to be changed in our marriage to prevent it form happening again. He didn't want to help me heal. He just expected me to get over it and trust him immediately.

"LOL!!! Men are from Mars...

Take it from a man; give him a detailed list of your requirements before-hand, ASAP. Don't set him up to fail by "hoping" he will do what you want. If he objects to anything on the list; no deal-no visit."

We've discussed this so many times over the past few years. I will give him a written list but would prefer he write out for me what he's willing to do. He really already knows what I want.

"All reasonable requests; except for your need for him to know to ask. I realize it would be ideal for you; but please don't go there. He (along with millions of other men) will probably fail."

Well, I can tell already he is only willing to make some nice-sounding verbal promises which he won't follow through on anyway. Same old routine... It's not that I won't give him some specifics to start working with. I will but I can tell aleady all he wants to start with (and probably continue with) is laying on the charm in person. Pardon the unladylikeness but IMHO he just has a booty call in mind for this weekend and THEN he'll reveal he doesn't think it's going to work out after all... And most of the time he blames the recovery failure on me, tells his family he tried but I just expected too much.

"Also NC should be in writing, you OK the text, and you mail it."

Yup - He knows this is one of the requirements. And he actually did this once before, 13 years ago I made him write a letter to an OW telling her the truth and stating his committment to our marriage. I had never heard of MB, I just knew that's what I needed to have happen. But over the years he complained about me making him do that. And I suspect a major part of his not wanting to move back to this area is him wanting to save face and not have to tell this latest OW, friends and ex-coworkers here, the truth. Once he suggested we could start over again after his job here ended and we moved away to make a fresh start BECAUSE he admitted he didn't want to try to explain to his coworkers here his coming back to me.


"Don't explain to DD's. Set clear boundaries for WH and share with DD's that this is a baby-step and that you have no expectations. Yes; he should talk to your DD's. (Tell him this!)"

I refuse to tell my daughters about any reconciliation plan or to spend any time with my WH until he comes up with a plan, explains it to our daughters, and axctually starts implementing that plan.


"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want the recovery program I found at the following link to be part of his education and counseling for recovery:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell him this is one of your requirements."

I will. Also, I like it that it's a program that takes several weeks to complete. I will need to see that he's willing to take some action to earn the right to spend time with me.

"Remember MM: You're in the driver's seat. I'm worried that you're expecting him to almost read your mind. That is never good for men; particularly one who has screwed up so badly. Give your R a break and be frank with him about boundaries, requirements and desires. The "sweet-nothings" will come after recon! Good Luck."

The problem has always been that he wants the sweet nothings... sweet EVERYTHINGS... right up front.

I think we should let the divorce go through as scheduled, I should start to date OM, and he should have to win me back.

I did tell him that the changes I need in order for recovery are the exact same things that should be done in ANY marriage, not just because there's been adultery and abuse. Also I had already decided that when the divorce was final and I started to date that I was going to have some very high standards for dating, no sex before marriage being one standard. So I don't see why I should be intimate with my WH until he does a LOT of work to prove himself trustworthy this time. AND I wouldn't even date somebody with his problems or track record so he has to start counseling and fixing problems before any romancing.

Haven't heard anything from EH since this afternoon.

I think I will just wait until he contacts me again and then suggest that he hold off on telling our daughters he wants to reconcile, AND hold off on spending any time with me, until we agree on a specific reconciliation plan, AND get started in it.

I want him to start reading some things, start counseling, start being accountable, write a letter telling the truth (to be sent to OW and to his family), etc. BEFORE I start spending time with him again.

Some of my precautions may seem extreme but I have learned the hard way not to trust his promises.

Recently he told me he wanted me and my daughters to move to be with him and "we should make our best effort"... But when I asked for details on how this reconciliation attempt woudl be any different than the rest and said I needed a firm committment from him, not just 'trying' again, he said he couldn't be with me because I talk too much. (this was not even a 5 minute conversation)

The next day he claimed I was mistaken and that he wasn't suggesting reconciliation...

The last reconciliation atempt before that was Christmas 2003. He begged to come home, made all the right promises, but talked me into not making him do the no contact letter with OW (said it would just embarrass him and assured me OW didn't want any more to do with him) I even said no way at first because I said I thought he would tell people I hade somehow forced him to come home. After he was home only 6 days I found out he had told his mother and the OW that he only came home because I wouldn't let our daughters speak to him otherwise!

So I need to have him actually start doing some things to prove he's serious this time before I will even agree to see him in person. And the no contact letter and telling his family the truth (as far as I know they still don't even believe he was having an affair) are VERY IMPORTANT to me.

In fact, not only will I refuse to see him in person until he gets busy and does what he needs to do, I will go back to not picking up the phone and not responding to his e-mails until he agrees to a plan and starts following it.

Of course, he's free to come and visit his daughters this weekend. I wouldn't stop him from doing that. I just don't want him to expect anything from me yet. He can pick them up out front as usual and he'll have to stay in a hotel. He will have to talk to his daughters about their weekend plans though, I stay out of their visitation.

In fact, not only will I refuse to see him in person until he gets busy and does what he needs to do, I will go back to not picking up the phone and not responding to his e-mails until he agrees to a plan and starts following it.

hmmmm... sorta sounds like plan B? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

He seems to be under the impression that you agreed to "begin something new". You need to do something to communicate your intentions, right? I mean, don't simply ignore him from now on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> meremortal: OK, I called WH and basically chewed him out royally. I know it was breaking plan B, LB'ing... But I was so frusrated and worried about what to do about financial and transportation problems that I caved to the temptation to just vent at him.

He called back a little while later and said he was sorry for everything that happened and that he has not like himself for the past three years. He wants to reconcile and agrees he will have to go to counseling, learn how to repair the damage, and take responsibility for recover or marriage.

But he added that he didn't want to move back to this area and he wants to stop the divorce. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Pay attention to how much of your needs he puts ahead of his own. I don't see much here do you? IMHO, you vented on him because you needed to. As for an LB, in plan B there really are not LBs. At this point, you are not trying to save your M, you are working on protecting you love from slipping away. So IMHO, you were right to vent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> meremortal: Now that's a problem because I have agreed to delay the divorce before only to find out it was a mistake. And I will not move myself and daughters to be with him until after we are totally convinced he's reformed.

Because he is a serial adulterer, has some serious problems that need to be addressed, and we've already tried reconciliation so many times before with no permanent success, I do not want to rush into anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: You delay the D and it gives him comfort that he has you under control vs want to help both of you get over the A. He really needs to show real effort. Not less. More, much more. You need t/d less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> meremortal: I want to take things REALLY slowly, starting with counseling, him reading and discussing some books with me, and him posting here for education and guidance (I will probably remove my posts first and just observe).

Also, I'm afraid he might just be feeling guilty and/or lonely right now because of the loss of OW, recent move, and new job. I do not want to be his temporary soft place to land between affairs! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Then don't. Identify and implement your boundaries. Even if he goes back to the OW, so what? Not like it hasn't happened before. But if you make his efforts a bigger deal than what it is, you maybe setting yourself up for a fall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> meremortal: He just sent this e-mail to me:

I bet you can figure out which parts of his message I'm not too happy about...

(nickname for me),

I'm going to start behaving like none of what happened, happened...

So,

The new engine has been ordered and the truck will be back in service in about a week. This weekend I'll come to (my town) and we can go grocery shopping and what not.

I feel better.

Love,
(WH) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Interesting e-mail. Again I don't see him wanting to please you. I see attempts at making himself feel better.

Please becareful. Make sure he convinces you and not the other way around.

JMHO,
L.

I clarified to him that I will not tell our daughters about this latest reconciliation request. I am making that his responsibility. I also said I think it was too soon for him to say anything to them, that we should see if we can get our relationship off on a good start first, with the needed changes in place.

I also told him that although he's welcome to come see his daughters this weekend, it's too early for me to spend any time with him. I need to see what he DOES with reconcilation efforts first.

He said if he came to visit he couldn't afford to stay in a hotel and it's too far for a one day round trip. So I said, "Well then you shouldn't come this weekend."

He said something about not wanting to talk on the phone a lot - phone bill too expensive. So I told him that it would probably be a better idea to just stick to e-mail for now anyway. (It's also probably a good idea because in the past the most hostile conversations we've had were on the phone)

I think I should let him do most of the contact initation. And I shouldn't bring up relationship talk, let him do that too. My guess he will continue to push for physical contact first, relationship talks later...
And my response will just be asking him what he's learning and doing to ensure this time will be different, so that I can feel safe enough to start seeing him in person. Ff needed (or asked) I will clarify the deal-breaker things I MUST have for reconciliation.

I told him he needs to come up with a plan. I said I know what's needed in order for me to agree to reconciliation, and I could give him the specifics (again), but he needs to give me some specifics of what he's willing to do, what he's offering.

He said the thing he's most scared about is being held accountable for the things he's done. I told him we can't just put this in the past and pretend it never happened. If he did that would leave us (daughters and I) feeling emotionally abandoned. We need his help in healing if we are going to continue a healthy relationship with him. He can't just move on by himself and hope we get over it quickly so that he can feel less guilt. I reminded him that's exactly what we've tried in the past and it never worked. What I've learned about affairs is that my reaction was normal and I did the best I could with what little help he gave me. There is a better way to handle these things that WILL work AND it will not only help me and our daughters heal but will also help him forgive and respect himself again. I told him because I love him I want him to stop feeling ashamed of himself. But that has to start with facing what he did - not burying it. It will make him uncomfortable but that doesn't mean it is my intent to make him feel bad. I want hi to heal too and I've learned this is the way that's done.

I gave him an anology of burying old tires. They eventually 'float' back up to the surface, through the dirt. It may take years for them to resurface, but burying tires is not a permanent solution to getting rid of them. Even if you chop up the tires before burying them, the bits float back up. As unpleasant as it is, burning the old tires is a permanent solution. (Nowadays I guess they can recycle them)

Anyway, I felt like I had talked too much so I said good-night. But I could not bring myself to say "I love you" when saying good-bye to him. I noticed this the last time I talked to him too...

I will not stop the divorce. It's been moving pretty slowly anyway. But still it may go through before he can show he's changed enough for me to trust him. I told him that I have really clear ideas of what I want in a marriage and that even if we divorce, any man I date, including my ex-H, would have to meet certain criteria. I am willing to consider reconciliation because we are still married, he's the father of my children, and we had so many years together. But until he can demonstrate changes I have nothing to go by but his past behavior. I said I would not even consider dating any other man with his track record, so even giving him the chance to prove he's changed IS the special consideration he's getting because he's my husband and father of my daughters.

He seemed very humble and attentive. Kept saying he will do it right this time. Says he does realize now why he was having affairs. He didn't get defensive and contributed more than he usually does (and I think he woudl have said even more if I had said less) He didn't try to end the conversation - I did. So IMO the conversation went well and ended well.

So I'll sit back and see where he takes it from here...

If he asks me for anything specific to read or specific things he has to do, I will respond with something specific to see if he follows through.

The kind of marriage I want in the future would require ongoing attention to and meeting each others' needs. I had already told him that the sort of changes he'd have to make are things I would expect from in marriage to anyone esle. I don't want him to think he can just jump through some hoops, then he 'has' me again, and can slack off again. I know I also have a responsibility to not relax and ever take him for granted again either. I have discussed with him back in Plan A and again in the past couple of days how I realize I wasn't meeting some of his most important needs either. I am willing to do that now IF he will let me AND IF he will prevent any OW from meeting any of those needs for him. In the past he had viewed any changes needed in order to reconcile after an affair as temporary, punishment, and a 'jealousy' problem in me. He would agree to the changes in order to reconcile but then complain that I had 'made' him comply and seek sympathy from others. If he begrudgingly agrees to conditions without actually wanting to make me feel safe and loved, I'd rather just be single until I meet a man who loves me like that.

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Well, wonder if/when I'll hear from the WH again?...

I wonder if he assumed paying for the vehicle repair and saying he wanted to reconcile entitled him to see me this weekend?

Oh well, I did my best to clarify my expectations.

If I don't hear from him, I don't hear from him...