Well, it's been since December 15 2004 since my last post.

I got lots of help earlier from the likes of TMCM, Weaver, FNCJ and others, and wondered how things have been, thought maybe everyone interested might like to see how things have been going since I disappeared from view.

Well, here's a recap:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm still on the path to recovery and in IC to work on my cheating issues</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BW/WW is still having her A with OM and is just as far, if not further, from rebuilding as she was a few months ago</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BW/WW and I are still in regular friendly contact, hanging out and doing things together, talking all the time, etc.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She still doesn't accept responsibility for her A nor see herself as a typical WS right now, and she lies and covers her visits with him to this day</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My IC is recommending NC because we realized "I am cheating on myself with my wife." (I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone wants to know what that means)</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I no longer base my entire approach on getting her back - in fact, I'm looking at rebuilding as probably the least likely option - even though I still want it</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I no longer obsess over her A with OM, nor do I try tactics to convince her to end the A</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have backed off severely in recent weeks and it WAS noticed by her (but I'm still too weak to go full NC)</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So...where am I in the MB system?
I'm between Plan A and Plan B. I've been posting alot on SurvivingInfidelity.com and their version of NC is a bit less extreme than the MB version, so I've been trying that and will probably have to go with it 100% in the very near future.

Am I running the risk of staying in Plan A so long that I lose the love I have left for her?
Probably.
I think a part of me may be waiting for that, waiting for the day when I can go NC and not have it hurt like hell, where it feels like a huge relief. That's stupid, I know, but we'll see whether I muster the courage or not.

Other than that, I'm still working hard, doing my music again (albeit in a calmer and less groupie-inspiring fashion than before), still doing volunteer work, getting ready to take a class and join a gym.
I'm getting my life together and feeling alright, for the most part.

Just thought y'all might like to know!

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

I have wondered how everything was going with you. Glad everything seems to be going well for you considering.

Not everyone can do plan B Vnus, and maybe that is okay too.

Your marriage may not survive and you may lose whatever love you still have, but I think you are going to be a lot stronger, better person after it is all said and done.

You'll end up a success in my book if you become the kind of person who would never hurt another through cheating and lies.

Maybe that is what this has all been about for you...to learn the pain of betrayal, and the sacredness of marriage.

Take is easy Vnus <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Weaver! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Between you and TMCM I wondered who would respond first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yes, things are going pretty well considering. The big question marks right now are "when will she figure out that she should end the A so she can heal?" and "how much more of this tolerance of OM will I endure before I bolt?"

We'll see the answers to those someday soon, I'm sure.

VM:

Glad you're back...

Wasn't sure I should post here since I thought it was my last post 2 you that drove you away. ...but the truths is that I don't have that much power! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I ac2ally like your "plan", because I think that communication is paramount, and plan B is not about communication (except for the one BIG point). But that approach is definitely not for everyone, as it can be far more painful than the standard plan A/B approach.

But it worked for Lostva and probably many others I can't remember right now.

-ol' 2long

2Long! Sorry I left you off my "favorite MBer's" list above, you belong there too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No, you didn't drive me away.
What "drove me away" was my BW/WW's attitude that MB was brainwashing me and I was just following a set formula to get her back and I didn't really mean any of it, that it was all just "manipulation" to use her words.

So, to prove her wrong, I vowed to exit MB and do it "my way."

I think the turning point has really been realizing that I can do NOTHING to change her mind or her stupid behavior.
I can only fix myself and do what I think is right.

It IS difficult to stay in this Plan A/Plan B limbo, spending time with her and basically ignoring the fact that OM exists until he inserts himself by calling or she goes to visit him...

I was with her last night and he called, she said "it's OM, should I answer it?" I'm thinking - what the heck are you asking ME for???
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

When I talked to her later I came right out and said "I was having a nice time with you until he called and ruined it." She said "I know" and then we changed the subject, but even saying that is a big step for me.

Then, just an hour ago I asked if she wanted to go to the Zoo this Saturday and she surprised me with "I'm flying back East to see OM for the weekend"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Everytime it happens, I get more angry and say 'why DO I stick around for this abuse?' - and the day will probably come where I will say enough is enough and cut her off completely.

As my IC said -
"Remember when you were cheating and you made a decision that felt good for the moment but was bad for you in the long run?
Well...you're still doing it now by sticking around and spending time with your BW/WW.
You're tolerating her A while you're trying to learn that A's are a very bad thing. How can that possibly work?"

He has a really good point, which I translated as "I'm cheating on myself with my wife."

Someday it will have to end.
For now, though, there is some benefit to staying in her daily life, and I'm glad to see a few people supporting that idea.

Vnus,

Please tell us more about this!!!

"I am cheating on myself with my wife."

I understand what you're saying, but would love to hear more about it!

Hello, VM. I've been thinking about you too.

I suppose it's better if you don't allow your life to be infected with any cheating at all, yours or anyone else's.

GC

VM:

Here's where it would be nice 2 hear what Orchid would say in a similar circumstance. But here's what I think I would say if given the chance (and believe me, I mean that - I seldom get setups like this anymore):

"I was with her last night and he called, she said "it's OM, should I answer it?" I'm thinking - what the heck are you asking ME for???

And that's what I would have said... ...or: 'No, but would you mind if *I* answered it?'

"When I talked to her later I came right out and said "I was having a nice time with you until he called and ruined it." She said "I know" and then we changed the subject, but even saying that is a big step for me."

And it was good that you did.

"Then, just an hour ago I asked if she wanted to go to the Zoo this Saturday and she surprised me with "I'm flying back East to see OM for the weekend"..."

The response 2 this kind of 'answer' would best come from someone like Orchid, but here's what I would have said:

"Yeah? So, would you like 2 go 2 the Zoo this Sa2rday?"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Vnus,

I hope you don't think that I agree with what you are doing as I do not. I think it is a huge mistake. I am just saying it is okay because you will still come out a better, stronger person and someday have a wonderful, committed marriage.

What you are doing I do not think is going to save your marriage. And I will be the first to stand up and do the jig when you finally cut her off completely and be done with this affair business for good.

Your IC is right on and we tried to tell you that continueing this way with your WW is only keeping you in an affair as the third willing participant. In essense you are condoning it which leads one to believe that you haven't gotten to the point where this kind of betrayal and destruction to others is so vile and disgusting to you that you cannot be a part of it.

I am happy that you are going to recover and become the man that you can be. I have not so much hope for your marriage and a deep dislike for your WW's continued affront to you and your marriage.

OK - long response because I'm going to hit Sue, Weaver & 2Long all at once:

CSue:
That actual phrase was actually mine, I'm thinking of registering it as a trademark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What my IC said was this:
"Remember back when you were cheating on your wife? You were standing in a club (since I was a musician), looking at a girl that was obviously attracted to you, and you made a decision to go further than you should, and violate the sanctity of your marriage and Mrs. VnusMars' trust.
You did that because the short-term benefits of doing so outweighed the long-term negative consequences in your mind at that moment.
You're doing the same thing now by staying close to your wife.
You've put aside your cheating ways, you're trying to figure out why you cheated, you're learning the benefits of honesty, fidelity, and committment more than you ever have before.
Yet you are doing a "dance" with a woman who cheated on you, isn't very repentant for it, and continues to this day to lie to you and make excuses.
Why? Because she is your 'best friend,' because you love her, because you can't break the ties with her. As you said before, "I don't know what else to do with myself on a Sunday afternoon."
So - you are choosing short-term benefits over long-term consequences.
The same neediness and desperation that allowed you to cheat on your wife is allowing you to tolerate HER lies and affair, because it's easier to stay with her than it is to leave...just like it was easier for you to go for the groupie than it was to consider your wife."
I summarized his point by saying - "so...I'm cheating on myself with my wife." Meaning, I'm sacrificing my "new" values and outlook on fidelity and marriage in order to feel OK right now.

Make sense? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2Long:
LOL LOL you always make me laugh.
Those would have been PERFECT things to say!

But seriously...I was thinking when the phone rang that I should have said "if you want me here right now, you shouldn't answer it. If you want me to leave, go ahead." And force her to choose.

Weaver:
Yes, I understand.
I am probably doing exactly the wrong thing, as you can tell from the above response my IC firmly agrees with you and most MBer's I'm sure.
Have hope...I know the day will come where either she will dump OM and start the path to recovery...
OR...
I will go NC and we'll see what happens.
It gets easier everyday for me to accept the idea of NC. It's just so difficult...I told my IC that I was afraid I was doing exactly what MB warns against, that of staying in Plan A so long that you lose all love for your S.
I did a pretty good NC for about 1 week, and it DID have an impact - she constantly called and IM'd me, asking what how I was, saying I was being distant, and when I did see her being ultra-friendly and sweet.
I guess a part of me is waiting for that so that when I DO go NC, it doesn't hurt so bad.
But I'm not going to get off that easy, I know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Vnus,

Over on Penny's board Save Your Marriage Central they have similar plans as here, but they call Plan B "Personal Protection" or something similar to that.

That is how I look at Plan B, as protection.

When I did it in my sitch, the first three weeks were absolute hell. I thought I would die, (after being in this type of triangle you are in an addiction as well as your WW and her affair partner) and then after that I felt peace, and it was like heaven.

It's like you get your self-respect back, and you finally get off of that roller coaster.

That was last summer for me, and he has tried to get back with me a couple of times but he hasn't met my conditions yet, and I won't give it another try until and if he does. In other words I haven't seen the necessary changes in him that would tell me that he has undergone enough personal growth to be the partner I want and need.

The love I feel for him is no longer what motivates me, as I know this is not enough. It's just a feeling and feelings don't make for a lifelong commitment.

This has done more for my self-respect and happiness than anything else I have ever done in my life.

I am hoping that you get to this place too Vnus, because then you have the chance of having a love that is truly what love was meant to be. Maybe with her, maybe with someone else.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Weaver -

Yes...I know exactly what you mean.

I think at this point, I'm putting off the inevitable because I'm too weak to do the right thing....for right now.

Step #1 for me, if you remember, was to stop obsessing and get into Plan A. I think I did that pretty well over these last few months - and now it's been almost 8 months since D-Day - I stopped pressuring her, stopped talking about rebuilding, backed off to a degree (we no longer TM or email throughout the day...hey it's some progress!), stopped obsessing over every little shred of hope or love she gave me as a sign she wants me back.

Now, I have to save myself, so Step #2 is to go NC. Not a real Plan B, necessarily, but definitely a major pullback on the daily IM's/phone calls and attempting to live my own life and not suffer the abuse of her A and her cake-eating.

Right now, though, when I think of what's best for me I have a hard time seeing NC. I still see value in being around her, even if I'm fooling myself. I'm scared of it, and I know it's going to hurt like hell. Like I said above, I think maybe I'm waiting until I'm SO SICK of dealing with it that the disgust I feel makes NC easier.

She alluded to this last Friday - she said "the day will come when we have to go our separate ways"...<starts crying>..."and you're going to find someone else and I'm going to be jealous because she's going to be the luckiest girl..."

Not only does she seem to believe I am capable of fixing my issues...even though she still doesn't see how SHE could get past them even if I do...
I think she sees NC around the corner too, and it seems like she realizes the REAL root reason behind it, that I can't stand the A anymore. Finally we agree on something.

I guess I just have to get to the point where it hurts me too much. I'm getting there - I'm starting to feel anger & disgust more now, and at more unusual times (i.e., when I'm with her), and expressing my honest opinions at times when I normally would have kept my mouth shut, more than before.

One big fear I have with going NC is the impression it leaves on BW/WW that I'm giving up love and hope for her. I'm starting to see that NC can be done with love and respect.

I just have to figure out how to do it, and if I'm strong enough to do it, and when I feel it's the only way.

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Vnus,

That is really, really profound stuff...You and your IC are doing beautifully. I really appreciate you sharing this stuff.

Stick around, we need your wisdom around here! I need to digest this stuff and may come back to discuss more if you're willing.

I believe what you've described is my husband's rationale to a "T". I've just never heard it put to words like you have....hmmmmmmmm

VM,

You have this soooo backwards I don't know whether to laugh or cry. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now, though, when I think of what's best for me I have a hard time seeing NC. I still see value in being around her, even if I'm fooling myself. I'm scared of it, and I know it's going to hurt like hell. Like I said above, I think maybe I'm waiting until I'm SO SICK of dealing with it that the disgust I feel makes NC easier.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hello, if you wait for that, then the marriage is OVER, no recovery. OH! you aren't going to go NC with her. NC is for her to have with her OM. You are going to plan B for reasons I will state at the end. You are not only fooling yourself, you are guarenteeing that the outcome WILL BE the end of your marriage, so keep up the good work. Your IC is right, you don't see a think right do you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She alluded to this last Friday - she said "the day will come when we have to go our separate ways"...<starts crying>..."and you're going to find someone else and I'm going to be jealous because she's going to be the luckiest girl..."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HELLO, she is telling you that she will NOT stop. She is telling you she wants the marriage to end. She may be jealous of the next girl, but she will NOT be married to you and that is more important to her right now. Man, can't you read english? Seriously, look at what you wrote about what she said.

In case you have missed it, she is going her separate way. She has you until she is convinced OM is the better choice and then YOU ARE OUT OF HER LIFE. If you want to change this then you MUST change your actions and that means PLAN B while you still have some love left for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not only does she seem to believe I am capable of fixing my issues...even though she still doesn't see how SHE could get past them even if I do...
I think she sees NC around the corner too, and it seems like she realizes the REAL root reason behind it, that I can't stand the A anymore. Finally we agree on something.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has made a choice and she is on her path. IF you want this to end in anything but divorce, YOU need to not go to NC, but to plan B. Please do some reading on this site.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I just have to get to the point where it hurts me too much. I'm getting there - I'm starting to feel anger & disgust more now, and at more unusual times (i.e., when I'm with her), and expressing my honest opinions at times when I normally would have kept my mouth shut, more than before.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words you are going to wait until you hate her guts, before you do something?? Man that is soooo dumb. Do something now while there is a chance for you to have a better outcome, than Hate and a divorce. Wow, that sounds like such fun...hate and divorce.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One big fear I have with going NC is the impression it leaves on BW/WW that I'm giving up love and hope for her. I'm starting to see that NC can be done with love and respect.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you please do some reading. Going into plan B includes a letter which is in fact a LOVE LETTER to your W expressing your need to do this to protect your love, and the conditions that are required for you to have any contact with her again, NC with the OM. It is not easy to get the wrong impression from a well written love letter expressing a willingness to work on the marriage IF NC with OM is established. I mean DUH!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just have to figure out how to do it, and if I'm strong enough to do it, and when I feel it's the only way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just told you how to do it. Go read about plan B, read about the plan B letter, make a plan B letter and post it here and the people here will help you polish it. Then you give it to her and remove yourself from her life.

Think about it. It can work, it has worked, and it is your best way out of the mess you are in.

God Bless,

JL

Interesting development:
I saw WW/BW last night, first time since her weekend trip to OM.
It was pleasant, normal...but she asked me...

"Why do you think it is that we never fought during our marriage? Was something wrong or were we just that compatible?"
I agreed it was the latter, we just fit very well together. The conversation ended there but I could tell it was prompted by something between her and OM...she has admitted to me before that they fight frequently.

Then she said:
"You're such my perfect man...except for the cheating..."

This morning, I called her at 6:30am while on my way to work, to make sure she was up and getting ready (yes, I know, more enabling) and she broke down sobbing. I rushed over to her place (since it's on my way to work) and let myself in (since I have a key) to find her on the bed in tears.

Basically - she talked to OM last night and he said "yeah, I COULD fall in love with you."
Meaning...he's not.

I asked her why she is with him at all - she said "I just want to know there is something real out there."

She said the following:
* Why have I been wasting my time the last 8 months, if he's not in love by now?
* He wants me to move in with him on East Coast and be together, why would he say that?
* Why has he spent all this time and money with trips if he didn't mean it?
* I just wish SOMEONE thought I was worth loving
* He wouldn't know a wonderful woman if it hit him in the head

She asked me what I thought...you can imagine what was racing through my head...why is my WIFE asking ME for advice on her relationship with her OM???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
I'm sure other BS have gone through this, I'd love to hear it.

Anyway, here's what I said:
* What do you expect from a relationship that is based on falsehoods?
* I think you are trying too hard to make something out of nothing - to mold this guy into your "perfect man" when he's really not
* You really need to be alone to figure out what you want
* I don't blame him for being cautious - he started as the Other Man, 2000 miles away, with a woman coming off the destruction of her marriage, emotionally immature...I would be wary, too!
* I think he has taken advantage of you and is using you - he gets to have you every few weeks but not have to deal with your real everyday life

I told her this:
* I am prepared to disappear from your life if need be, to save myself and to help you gain direction
* You need to break up with him and be alone for awhile - and that means without me, too
* If you break up with him and time passes and you want me back around on some level, call me, if not then don't

She also stated that her IC is in FULL support of her A with OM, as as "way to get as far from me as possible." She also said he has labeled me a dyed-in-the-cloth Narcissist and that I WILL cheat again.
I told her that was highly unprofessional since I am not his patient, and that clinically no IC should be advocating her R with OM. Her IC and My IC are friends and colleagues, I fully intend to vent to My IC this Thursday, actually I called him just now and left a voicemail to this effect. My IC had made it perfectly clear that NO real IC would support this charade.

So...
We shall see how this all plays out.
I have a feeling we'll be back at square 1 within a day or two, she and OM will kiss and make up...
But I DO intend to do what needs to be done for good this time.
This is getting patently insane.

Interesting development:
I saw WW/BW last night, first time since her weekend trip to OM.
It was pleasant, normal...but she asked me...

"Why do you think it is that we never fought during our marriage? Was something wrong or were we just that compatible?"
I agreed it was the latter, we just fit very well together. The conversation ended there but I could tell it was prompted by something between her and OM...she has admitted to me before that they fight frequently.

Then she said:
"You're such my perfect man...except for the cheating..."

This morning, I called her at 6:30am while on my way to work, to make sure she was up and getting ready (yes, I know, more enabling) and she broke down sobbing. I rushed over to her place (since it's on my way to work) and let myself in (since I have a key) to find her on the bed in tears.

Basically - she talked to OM last night and he said "yeah, I COULD fall in love with you."
Meaning...he's not.

I asked her why she is with him at all - she said "I just want to know there is something real out there."

She said the following:
* Why have I been wasting my time the last 8 months, if he's not in love by now?
* He wants me to move in with him on East Coast and be together, why would he say that?
* Why has he spent all this time and money with trips if he didn't mean it?
* I just wish SOMEONE thought I was worth loving
* He wouldn't know a wonderful woman if it hit him in the head

She asked me what I thought...you can imagine what was racing through my head...why is my WIFE asking ME for advice on her relationship with her OM????
I'm sure other BS have gone through this, I'd love to hear it.

Anyway, here's what I said:
* What do you expect from a relationship that is based on falsehoods?
* I think you are trying too hard to make something out of nothing - to mold this guy into your "perfect man" when he's really not
* You really need to be alone to figure out what you want
* I don't blame him for being cautious - he started as the Other Man, 2000 miles away, with a woman coming off the destruction of her marriage, emotionally immature...I would be wary, too!
* I think he has taken advantage of you and is using you - he gets to have you every few weeks but not have to deal with your real everyday life

I told her this:
* I am prepared to disappear from your life if need be, to save myself and to help you gain direction
* You need to break up with him and be alone for awhile - and that means without me, too
* If you break up with him and time passes and you want me back around on some level, call me, if not then don't

She also stated that her IC is in FULL support of her A with OM, as as "way to get as far from me as possible." She also said he has labeled me a dyed-in-the-cloth Narcissist and that I WILL cheat again.
I told her that was highly unprofessional since I am not his patient, and that clinically no IC should be advocating her R with OM. Her IC and My IC are friends and colleagues, I fully intend to vent to My IC this Thursday, actually I called him just now and left a voicemail to this effect. My IC had made it perfectly clear that NO real IC would support this charade.

So...
We shall see how this all plays out.
I have a feeling we'll be back at square 1 within a day or two, she and OM will kiss and make up...
But I DO intend to do what needs to be done for good this time.
This is getting patently insane.

Interesting development:
I saw WW/BW last night, first time since her weekend trip to OM.
It was pleasant, normal...but she asked me...

"Why do you think it is that we never fought during our marriage? Was something wrong or were we just that compatible?"
I agreed it was the latter, we just fit very well together. The conversation ended there but I could tell it was prompted by something between her and OM...she has admitted to me before that they fight frequently.

Then she said:
"You're such my perfect man...except for the cheating..."

This morning, I called her at 6:30am while on my way to work, to make sure she was up and getting ready (yes, I know, more enabling) and she broke down sobbing. I rushed over to her place (since it's on my way to work) and let myself in (since I have a key) to find her on the bed in tears.

Basically - she talked to OM last night and he said "yeah, I COULD fall in love with you."
Meaning...he's not.

I asked her why she is with him at all - she said "I just want to know there is something real out there."

She said the following:
* Why have I been wasting my time the last 8 months, if he's not in love by now?
* He wants me to move in with him on East Coast and be together, why would he say that?
* Why has he spent all this time and money with trips if he didn't mean it?
* I just wish SOMEONE thought I was worth loving
* He wouldn't know a wonderful woman if it hit him in the head

She asked me what I thought...you can imagine what was racing through my head...why is my WIFE asking ME for advice on her relationship with her OM????
I'm sure other BS have gone through this, I'd love to hear it.

Anyway, here's what I said:
* What do you expect from a relationship that is based on falsehoods?
* I think you are trying too hard to make something out of nothing - to mold this guy into your "perfect man" when he's really not
* You really need to be alone to figure out what you want
* I don't blame him for being cautious - he started as the Other Man, 2000 miles away, with a woman coming off the destruction of her marriage, emotionally immature...I would be wary, too!
* I think he has taken advantage of you and is using you - he gets to have you every few weeks but not have to deal with your real everyday life

I told her this:
* I am prepared to disappear from your life if need be, to save myself and to help you gain direction
* You need to break up with him and be alone for awhile - and that means without me, too
* If you break up with him and time passes and you want me back around on some level, call me, if not then don't

She also stated that her IC is in FULL support of her A with OM, as as "way to get as far from me as possible." She also said he has labeled me a dyed-in-the-cloth Narcissist and that I WILL cheat again.
I told her that was highly unprofessional since I am not his patient, and that clinically no IC should be advocating her R with OM. Her IC and My IC are friends and colleagues, I fully intend to vent to My IC this Thursday, actually I called him just now and left a voicemail to this effect. My IC had made it perfectly clear that NO real IC would support this charade.

So...
We shall see how this all plays out.
I have a feeling we'll be back at square 1 within a day or two, she and OM will kiss and make up...
But I DO intend to do what needs to be done for good this time.
This is getting patently insane.

Time for Plan B Vnus (and do not discuss it with her before you do it).

You said before Christmas that March was you deadline and this is March.

It's time.

OK, VM...

More:

"Then she said:
"You're such my perfect man...except for the cheating..." "

VM: "Yeah, 2 bad about that. Why don't you stop?"

"This morning, I called her at 6:30am while on my way to work, to make sure she was up and getting ready (yes, I know, more enabling) and she broke down sobbing. I rushed over to her place (since it's on my way to work) and let myself in (since I have a key) to find her on the bed in tears."

You should have let her stew in her juices.

"Basically - she talked to OM last night and he said "yeah, I COULD fall in love with you."
Meaning...he's not."

YOU shouldn't be surprised.

"I asked her why she is with him at all - she said "I just want to know there is something real out there.""

VM: "I see. So, why are you with him at all?"

"She said the following:
* Why have I been wasting my time the last 8 months, if he's not in love by now?"

VM: Because it isn't about him, it's about Mrs VM. 'Wasting time' is just something that she does.

"* He wants me to move in with him on East Coast and be together, why would he say that?"

Player.

"* Why has he spent all this time and money with trips if he didn't mean it?"

Player.

"* I just wish SOMEONE thought I was worth loving"

VM: "I wish YOU thought you were worth loving."

"She asked me what I thought...you can imagine what was racing through my head...why is my WIFE asking ME for advice on her relationship with her OM????
I'm sure other BS have gone through this, I'd love to hear it."

And this is why plan B is so often recommended. It's 2 remove you from such a ridiculous si2ation. Most PEOPLE would have a tough time handling that. I sure would. But some people can and have handled that (Lostva comes 2 mind again). It ain't for the faint of heart.

I haven't plan B'd, but if I was in a si2ation like yours, I would. NOW.

-ol' 2long

2Long/Weaver...

"You should have let her stew in her own juices."
-------------
In my own defense - I had no idea what it was she was sobbing about until I got there. It could've been out cats, her Mom, her health, something...I didn't think it would be about OM, honestly.

As for Plan B...
Yes.
I know.
It is time.
I think in a way she needs it as much as I do - I need to extricate myself from this ongoing car wreck of enabling and sacrificing my self-respect...but I also think that as long as I'm around her, she feels the need to STAY in the A so she can keep me at arm's length.
Well...I can take away her need to feel that way.


But we'll see. I think I've made it abundantly clear that I don't see the dissolution of the A as a step towards us working towards R, I see it as something she needs to do for herself, and something that unless it happens also = me not in her life at all.

And I don't want that to happen...I love her so much and miss her so terribly...and I know she loves and misses me...the difference is she HATES that she feels that way and wishes she could erase it...but I don't, I love that I still feel that way after everything that has happened...that is REAL love.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>