Gimble, Suzet and WAT,

We stayed home last night the weather was nasty. I made dinner for WW. She enjoyed it and thanked me. We took a bath together and then I rubbed her down with lotion. We spent some intimate time together in the bedroom and you know the rest. It was a good night. This morning when she was leaving for work I gave her the letter and told her to wait until she got to work to read it. She gets in early so she will have some quiet time to reflect. As of now no emails or calls from her.

I did learn how to get a little more information on her cell phone usage. I can now see the last call and text message and their date and time. There was at least one call and 3 text messages yesterday.

I find it strange that WW is so loving right now and still in contact. I this common? Is she doing this to help not feel guilty? Or could something else be up?

FL

Got several emails from WW.

WW - "Are you there"?

Me - Yes sweetheart - I'm here.

WW - "I knew when I decided to go back with you that I had to end it with OM. When did you right that letter?"

Me - "I've been working on it for several weeks".

Me - "WW - are you saying that you are going to end it?"

WW - "Of course. I don't understand - did you think I wasn't going to?"

Me. "I just needed to here it from you that's all."

WW called me after that and we talked. She said that she had email a letter to OM this morning saying that she was going back to me and breaking it off with him. I asked her to email it to me and she said no. She said knowing him he would not contact her anymore because he had a problem with her being married anyway. This would explain why he would not meet her. I think she was the aggressor in this A. Due to the fact that she made so many calls to him that weren't taken according to the phone records (1 minute calls).

Gimble, Suzet, WAT: ???????????????????

FL

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: FogLight ]</small>

FogLight,

I’m glad you gave the letter to your W and I’m also eager to hear what her response to you will be… Probably you haven’t hear from her yet because she needs some time to think and do some retrospection on herself now… I think deep down in her heart she knows and realizes that she need to stop contact with OM if she want this M to recover, but she find the thought of NC with him very, very difficult. Remember, this is like an addiction and currently she IS addicted to OM…that’s why she keep contacting him…
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I find it strange that WW is so loving right now and still in contact. Is this common? Is she doing this to help not feel guilty? Or could something else be up? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Foglight, first you must understand that, the fact that your W is addicted to the OM and in contact with him, doesn’t necessarily mean that she doesn’t love you and doesn’t feel loving towards you. From everything you’ve posted the last couple of days it’s clear that your W DO feel loving towards you. However, she have her needs met by two people at this stage…you and the OM... She is in a ‘comfort zone’ where she has her meets met by two men right now. She has a ‘love account’ for both you and the OM and while she is still in contact with OM, both you and OM are depositing love units in her bank accounts. This explains why it is possible for a WS to feel loving towards the BS while still in contact with the OP. Be prepared for her loving attitude to disappear for a while as soon as NC with the OM becomes a reality... This will happen because the WS in a ‘fog’ and early withdrawal view the BS as the ‘meanie’ who prevent contact with the OP. Just know that this will be normal behavior for some time.

It’s also possible that your W feels very confused right now between her feelings for you and the OM… Most probably she thinks (like many other WS’s in the ‘fog’) that she loves you but are not ‘in love’ with you. I remember during my fog I felt very confused about my feelings for XOM and started questioning my feelings for my H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> This was all part of the ‘fog’ and my own lack of knowledge and understanding about the nature of love and the differences between infatuation; “falling” in love and mature love in a M. I didn’t understand how it could be possible to develop such deep “in love” feelings for another man while you still love your own spouse… I thought it couldn’t be possible to have feelings for two men at the same time and probably your W is struggling with the same thing right now...

You must understand that people and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high… These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off… When the WS then get involved with someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. I thought the same thing after my inappropriate friendship ended, but I have learned and grown and realized that I was indeed “in love” with my H, but in a more mature way. I have learned there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love: Spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable.

It’s also possible that, deep down in her heart, your W do feels guilty about her contact with OM, but usually as WS in the ‘fog’ try to rationalize their behavior in their own minds in an attempt to repress the feelings of guilt and make their behavior more acceptable to themselves. This excellent thread: How the wayward get wayward, and why they sound so dumb... will give you a better understanding of this any why WS’s acted the way they do.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it could help! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Hmmmmmm - Being cautious, I'm not sure what to make of this. Perhaps the next step is to suggest a NC letter. Wait and see what others say.

You'll eventually have to work up to unlocking that phone and full openness.

Being optomistic, perhaps her getting closer to you was her way of saying she was ending it. But we've seen similar actions from other WSs who were just waiting for something else. Good thing your Plan A has been good.

Maybe ask her next if she's ready to establish a better marriage than she ever dreamed possible. An affirmative answer can open the dialogue further. Perhaps concentrate on you two for the moment and leave OM out for a bit, so the NC letter isn't the very first thing to do - giving OM more importance. Again, I'm out of my league here.

Good work.

Edited to add: What Suz said. Good stuff.

WAT

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

FogLight,

Sorry, I've only noticed your second post after I’ve sent my reply.

Your W’s reaction is very good and positive in the sense that she realizes she need to stop contact with OM and she didn’t try to argue with you about it. This is very good. However, I’m concerned about the fact that she’s not willing to send you the letter she send to him and I think you have reason to still feel very suspicious. You can't trust her yet. She’s still not honest and open with you. I also think you’re correct when you say you think she was the aggressor in the A.

Suzet

At the end or the month I will be able to see via the internet cell phone account how many call etc. made to him. I can also monitor most recent call and txt msg. Just time and date only but WW only calls me or om or ds and I can tell if she calls ds. So I will have a prett;y good idea about the cell phone but not email.

FL

OK, now I'm caught up with the edit you made with the info Suz refers to re: not sharing the e-mail to OM with you.

I agree with Suz.

If you recall, we speculated in response to some of your first posts that your W may be in this affair a bit one-way, i.e., OM was jetting around the country with other women - Hawaii, right? - and seemed to have been stringing your wife along. He may not have been very involved all along. He was just getting his ego stroked.

The e-mail she sent will not do as a NC letter, IMHO. The fact she won't show you means it's not what she said it was. Period. I think she's zooming you still. She's close, but not "home" yet. She may be in denial that OM is slipping away and is doing the classic fence dance.

Keep doing what you're doing. Be patient. It'll come.

WAT

Understood. I told her that I wanted her to read SAA and she said OK. Was this a good idea?

FL

I might have advised you to wait a bit on that - but see what happens.

Be cauious and slow. Emphasize family. Not a good time for that bass boat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I won't bring it up again about the SAA and she might forget it? I really wanted that bass boat too!

FL

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: FogLight ]</small>

No, you mentioned it to her already. It may be a good thing - I was defaulting to the standard recommendation that BSs shouldn't offer any "education" until the WS is just about asking for it. Leave it out at home and see if she picks it up.

OK on the SAA. Now what about confronting the contact if it continues?

FL

FogLight,

I suggest that you wait until you have proof that contact between them still continue and then you can confront your W and request her to send him a proper NC letter. The NC letter must be approved by you first before she sends it and both you and your W’s names must appear on the letter. Here is a sample of NC letters.

Read the following quote from Dr Harley on how A’s should end:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzet

Thanks Suzet.

FL

Good morning, FogLight.

I have a slightly different opinion for you.

Plan A is about negotiating an end to the affair. With that in mind, several things need to happen.

First off, the No Contact letter needs to written, approved by you and mailed by you to the other man.

Then you need to set up accountability. Email, cell phone, etc.

This is not so that you spy, this is to level the field so that you have equal access to the truth. No secrets.

Please go back and read all the posts made to you since the beginning. There are probably a lot of little things that you missed in the heat of battle.

I know that you want to sit back and bask in the moment, but there is work yet to be done, and the steely-eyed hero needs to be on top of the situation.

As long as you wife hides the truth, your recovery will not move forward at any appreciable pace.

Stay in plan A, and negotiate the end of the affair. Just because she says it is over, does NOT mean that it is. No contact letters and verification of no contact on a continued basis are the methods of choice for ensuring the end of the affair.

Gimble

Gimble I am well aware of this and I know several text messages have been exchanged between them today.

This is the last email from WW:

"You know you cannot take full blame for our marriage collapse. In fact you should take little blame. I'm surprised that you hadn't had an affair on me with the way I look and my laziness. I never cook or clean - I am a poor excuse for a wife - and then I have an emotional affair. I want you to know that I am sorry - I am ending the affair - and I will try to become a better wife. I know you want details of the affair - I don't feel comfortable talking to you about another man. If you want to talk about it when you get home - I will - if that helps you."

FL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FogLight:
I know several text messages have been exchanged between them today.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">secret text messages = ongoing affair

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FogLight:
<strong> Gimble I am well aware of this and I know several text messages have been exchanged between them today.

This is the last email from WW:

"You know you cannot take full blame for our marriage collapse. In fact you should take little blame. I'm surprised that you hadn't had an affair on me with the way I look and my laziness. I never cook or clean - I am a poor excuse for a wife - and then I have an emotional affair. I want you to know that I am sorry - I am ending the affair - and I will try to become a better wife. I know you want details of the affair - I don't feel comfortable talking to you about another man. If you want to talk about it when you get home - I will - if that helps you."

FL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good deal, so plan out what you are going to talk about when you get home. You are going to negotiate the end of the affair.

That means, and the MOST IMPORTANT part to reach an accord on is;

NO CONTACT.

She has to agree and implement that simple, but difficult item before you can start recovery. All other details pertain, at this point in time, to that simple goal. That includes verification. Verification requires that your wife become an open book.

Do NOT expect her to talk about the affair yet. It is too early. The exception, for now, is if she wants to talk about it.

The primary goal for now is separation between her and the other man, and a span of time.

You continue being the steely-eyed hero.

Gimble

Gimble a couple of recent emails between Me and WW.

ME "If your emotional needs were being met this would not have happened. However my emotional needs not being met caused me to not met yours. A tragic circle that we both shared in. I know you did not plan this, affairs are never planned. They happen when someone meets your emotional needs and before you know it your in deep over your head and can't get out. We were not totally honest with each other. I did not understand what total honesty meant until I read the books on marriage I have. There are extraordinary precautions needed to be taken at this point in order to form the foundation for a strong marital recovery and we must discuss and put them into place together. Yes I want the details, I need to know and you need to be honest with me about them, but only when your ready to tell me. I love you very very much."

WW "I know its going to be hard but, You are going to have to trust that I am doing the right thing"

Me "I don't understand"

WW "I don't like that you are calling me and asking if I have talked to OM"

ME " I know I can tell but, it must be clear that no contact be made whatsoever , email, text msg or cell phone. It has to be this way for us to make it."

I am taking a stand!

FL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FogLight:
<strong> I am taking a stand!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Outstanding!

Gimble