Stand tall, Foglight!

WAT

Little bit of a roadblock. WW does not want to give me her emial password! And the text messages have continued. Don't want to confront just yet. Then I will have to give up that I know her cell phone internet login info. I explained that she had to become an open book. WW caught me trying to get into her email last night and we had a slight relapse, but I got her to come to bed, she's still a little miffed but I asked her what if the shoe was on the other foot and she said she would have left me!

FL

Hmmmm…not sure on how you must handle this one… Maybe you can make it clear to your W again that, until she 1) stops contact with OM completely, 2) become willing to be an open book to you and 3) be honest & open with you about everything, it won’t be possible for you to recover, for this M to recover and to learn to trust her again… Maybe you can also tell her that people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing and that her unwillingness to do the above 3 things is a sign to you that she is not totally committed to you and this M yet and that you find her behavior painful and hurtful. I don’t think you must confront your W with the cell phone internet login yet. Currently that is the only access you have to her secretive behavior and if you tell her about it now she will defiantly change her pin number, but you can tell your W that her unwillingness to give you access to her e-mail account is a definite & clear sign to you that she is still in contact with OM.

Suzet

ditto Suz.

Consider paraphrasing her words back to her:

"I want you to know that I am sorry - I am ending the affair - and I will try to become a better wife."

Foglight: Ending the affair means ending all contact with OM and regaining our mutual trust. Our marriage cannot be restored until these things are settled.

WAT

I know its going to be a struggle but I didn't come this far to give up!! Too much progress has been made from the day of my first post to now, I'm in it for the long run. WW has told me several times that she loved me. I haven't heard that in 5 months.

FL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FogLight:
WW has told me several times that she loved me. I haven't heard that in 5 months. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is her current state of mind... (sorry, this is rough)

*sigh*

WW would "love you" even MORE if you'd back off and let her keep her affair on the side. It makes her happy to have her husband ~and~ some extra attention from OM outside the marriage as well.

The phrase >>>

"I love you"

can be used to persuade you to surrender your boundaries.

Be aware if this becomes your reality.

OK?

Pep

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Yes, but I'm standing my ground. WW is off work today at home, cleaning! for the first time in a month! Have checked several times on cell phone account and no activity yet today.

FL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FogLight:
<strong> Yes, but I'm standing my ground. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Morning, FogLight.

I am glad you are standing your ground.

Pay close attention to what WAT and Pep told you.

Remember, she has become somewhat accustomed to having both of her 'men' pay attention to her. She is not going to give that up so easily.

Continue with your new self. A steely-eyed hero doesn't dote, but can be tender. He is always trustworthy. He never avoids conflict, but faces it head on, with a firm resolve and kindness. A steely-eyed hero's face exudes openness, but his eyes shine with a fierce determination. Do you see this guy in the mirror?

Do you know what doting is?

I also agree that your cell phone info should be kept to yourself for now.

You are doing well.

Gimble

Fog-
Put a keylogger on your home computer. Then you should be able to get her password to her email. Haven't tracked your whole story, so don't know if this has been suggested yet or not.

deleted double post

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

The keylogger is a good suggestion, although I have no personal experience with them. There's a HUGE downside if she can discover it, though.

But this idea made me think of something else - has she seen SAA yet? - or can she otherwise find her way to this forum from any info you've disclosed or from putting on a keylogger of her own?

Still fogged or only partially fogged WSs who stumble across this forum and ID their BSs usually go ballistic. We've been manipulating them, you see. Conspiring against them. My WS was directed to this site by her sister - my prior ally and confidant turned double agent. (I will never understand why she did this.) Thus, it was immediately "proven" that I was conspiring in a chat room to deliberately hurt my WS and ruin her financially. Probably the final LB.

WAT

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

FogLight.

Key-logging software or hardware will potentially get you more than you want to know. I would never tell you to avoid necessary conflict, but I would caution you against self-inflicted pain.

There is nothing said between your wife and the other man that is going to help you.

They have talked about how bad you are, and talked about how wonderful they are, and their love is. They have made plans and talked about what great sex they would have.

Now you know what they talked about. Unless the affair continues unabated, I recommend that you wait on the key-logger.

Gimble

Gimble - I think the keylogger thought is with regard to determining whether contact is continuing or not - NOT necessarily what the contact is. That said, I agree that Foglamp (Foghorn?) - oh yea - Foglight - doesn't need to know any details now of continuing contact content - unless he can laugh at their childishness.

WAT

WAT, I did understand.

Maybe I wasn't clear.

I think that FogLight should give his wife a chance to come clean before he installs anything. If she gives him access, then the logger software, if discovered, could be an impediment to recovery.

I used the phrase "if the affair continues unabated". I would assume that continued secrecy on his wife's part would indicate an ongoing affair, and thus justify the software.

Gimble

Thanks All. The keylogger won't do any good because she doesn't use the home computer only her work computer to email. Last night I gave her SAA and encourage her to read it. No text messages sent or received since 5:45 pm yesterday and no calls on her cell phone today.

How does doting (excessive attentiveness) hurt our relationship??

FL

It makes you seem needy.

Try being a little aloof and independent.

OK, no problem.

FL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FogLight:
<strong>
How does doting (excessive attentiveness) hurt our relationship??
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Webster defines doting; " to be lavish or excessive in one's attention, fondness, or affection".

The simple problem with doting, when it is not reciprocated, is that done enough, you begin to feed a sense of entitlement in your spouse.

You spouse begins to 'expect' certain things from you. This raises their 'base of expectations of you', to higher level. It becomes harder and harder to ever be 'good enough' or do enough as your spouse expects more and more.

Eventually, the basic balance of the relationship becomes affected, and a serious sense of self entitlement begins to develop in the affected spouse. Once the imbalance becomes great enough, the marriage becomes a likely candidate for an affair.

Interestingly enough, it isn't always the 'most entitled feeling' spouse that becomes wayward. Sometimes, the spouse doing all the work finally becomes fed up, quickly develops their own exaggerated sense of entitlement, and runs off to get their needs met.

It is very important to maintain a balanced approach toward your spouse. Firm, but fair, affectionate but not doting, honest and open. Constancy is extremely important.

Webster defines constancy as "steadfastness of mind under duress"

Gimble

FG,
Stop [censored] footing around thinking that you’ve made tremendous strides when in fact all you’ve manage to do is put yourself in a position for further abuse. Your WW is having an affair. It’s that simple. It’s not over! It’s an on going and in your face, lying cheating affair. If you’re not willing to accept this simple truth then you can’t help your self. If she’s still in contact with the OM then that’s what it is.

If you willingly accept her obstifications, equivocations and just plain lies then all you’re doing is indicating to her, (get that TO HER), that she can continue to do what she pleases with impunity! And the worst of it is that she realizes by your attitude and questions that you’re conscious of her duplicitous behavior, yet she still continues down her hurtful and disrespectful path! So what does that tell you?

Plan A does not, DOES NOT, require that you accept this kind of treatment and make believe that it’s not happening! Plan a provides you with guidelines to respond to this behavior with out doing further damage to the relationship. Do you understand? It instructs you how to respond with dignity and from and unassailable position of certitude; a position from which you refuse to dignify her denial with debate. You don’t argue with her about what you know she’s doing. You simply let her know that you’re aware, that you find it painful and that you want it to stop so that you and she can go forward and save the marriage.

And if she agrees then you insist that she live with in certain boundaries that will provide you with comfort and proof as to that validity of her words because that’s what a cheater needs to do because of all things, what cheaters do best is lie!

And in the meanwhile, you continue to treat her with respect and to meet her emotional needs in such a way as to show her, get it, SHOW HER who you are so that when and if it comes to Plan B, she has a firm memory and positive image in her mind of a calm decent man who has responded to this crises with out LBing, crying, begging or pleading.

So what do you do tonight? You confront the issue in a respectful and intelligent manner. First, however, you get your intelligence gathering apperatice in place and protect it. And that mean you use everything at your disposal to do so! Yes, you put K-Logger software on your home computer! Even if she doesn’t use it she just amy may a mistake one day! And if you can sneak into her office and put it on that computer as well, then that’s what you do! You place voice activated recorders on your home telephone and in her car. You find ways to acquire copies of cell phone and credit card bills. You go through her personal things for evidence and proof. These are all basic actions to take. They are a given just like exposing the affair is a given! And if what you hear, read or find out is painful then welcome to reality because what you’re confronting is all those things!

Face it and understand that confronting infidelity and saving a marriage is not an exercise for the faint of heart. If you can’t face the truth and fight the battle to save your marriage regardless of what you come to know, then your choices become simple. Stay in the marriage and live like a dog or get a divorce.

FG, face the truth. You can’t solve anything by lying to yourself and making believe.

Sorry to be so negative.
Coach

Coach, you might want to IMMEDIATELY go read FogLight's first thread and all the subsequent posts.

The affair is exposed, and no contact is being negotiated.

Gimble

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>