</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ecxpa:
<strong> Tanelorn....talk about respect when you understand respect.... and don't tell me I have no respect. You show respect through openess and honesty. I have been open and honest with my WW and GF. As far as me committing an "affair" while still married....everybody has their opinion on this.....leave this to the individual in the future. Afterall, most people believe that adultery occurs when an affair occurs; but then some people believe you commit adultery if you remarry after the divorce irregardless of whose fault it is. So as for your moral purity.....re-examine it and don't judge....... especially when you are pis*ed off. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said before, I care about you and your situation, but I still hold to the simple fact: you are doing this wrong.

1) Respect is defined by much more that "openess and honesty." That's essentially the definition of Honesty. Repsct involves caring enough about the person you claim to love enough to make them the ONLY person in your life.

2) As for you rather strange view of an affair: consider this. If your definition of an affair was the logical conclusion to the set of propositions you offered, then the word itself would have no meaning. I could claim my wife was having an affair by baking a cake. Leaving a definition to the individual makes any form of communication impossible. I could easily define an apple as the round thing I use to steer my car. Words have definite, specific meanings - that's the basis of communication. If that were false, you wouldn'ty have lost your temper with me because nothing I said to you would have meant the same thing for you that I did.

In essence, you are having an affair as long as you are in a loving relationship with any person than your spouse, and to deny that simply proves tha fact that ALL WS's are covered with fog and are willing to forget reality.

You are NOT showing respect to your girlfriend by trying to keep the vows you made to your wife (faithful till the end) all the while being 'open and honest' with your GF and telling her she's the 'one'.

I won't bother you again with more posts, my opinion stands. You are having an affair, cheating on your wife - even if she is cheating on you, and you don't seem man enough to place your respect, love, devotion, and care in the heart and arms of one person - you are trying to keep two women. You are cheating on your GF by pretending you have a faithful relationship with her, while keeping your vows to a totally differnt woman. May be ok in some societies, go ahead and use that as an excuse if you need to. I have had my say.

David

Chris....they are not her assets. I receive a service connected disability pension due to injuries I received in combat before I was married. If you are married you get so much for that....if you divorce you lose the married veteran status and go to the single veteran status.....they don't give the difference to the spouse they just take it away.

ecxpa -

You are having an affair, an affair you justify because your wife had an affair first and because you don't want to divorce for financial reasons. Coming up with justifiactions for an affair does not make it something other than an affair. ALL affairs involve justification.

If you were certain enough that your marriage was over to get involved with another woman, then you should have also been certain enough to not have to post here asking what to do.

If you were certain enough to get involved with the new woman, then she should mean enough to you to divorce your wife, marry her, and give up the financial difference.

The Marriage Builders philosophy does not endorse adultery - period.

I have been separated from my WH for 3 years now.
He has had several affairs. He has some serious issues that he probably will never get help with. So it is very doubtful that we will ever be able to reconcile. The divorce will be final soon. But until it is final my husband is still my husband and I have a moral responsibility to myself, my husband, and to God to not commit adultery. My husband's failure and weakness does not in any way decrease my morals. Your wife's addiction and adultery (another sort of addiction BTW) does not decrease your responsibility to her as logn as she is your wife. I will wait until the divorce before becoming involved with another man. My WH is now saying he wants to reconcile. In spite of the odds against success, I am free to give him that chance. Of course there are changes he will need to make, trust he will need to regain, etc. If he fails to do what is needed before the divorce becomes final I will be ree of any obligation to him. I would not want to be faced with the sort of situation you are now in.

We have grounds for divorce when our spouse commits adultery. We have a valid reason to reject reconciliation offers from a wayward spouse who is unwilling to make the needed changes for reconciliation. If your wife refuses to write a no contact letter for you to mail to the OM, then you shoudl divorce her. We do not have a valid excuse to become adulterers ourselves just because our spouse commits adultery and fails to do what's needed for reconciliation.

You say you still love your wife. I don't remember you saying whether or not you love the OW. IMHO it is not only immoral, but immature to become involved with a new person when you are still married to AND still in love with your spouse.

Frankly, I don't understand why the OW would be interested in being involved with a married man, who still loves his wife, and values $ more than her! Does the OW know you came here asking about giving your wife another chance? You care enough about the OW to not dump her for our wife... but not enough to marry her if it means giving up some $? Or maybe it's not concern for the OW so much as wanting to continue getting what the OW provides for YOUR enjoyment?

BTW, if you do ever divorce your wife and marry the OW, are you aware of how low the odds are that marriage will be successful? This is another reason I am waiting until the divorce is final before dating. Why start a new relationship with built in strikes against it?

I see that some of the posters have responded with what you wanted to hear. If their endorsement (and the financial benefit) is enough to quiet your conscience then I guess you've gotten what you came here for. But what you are asking is clearly against Marriage Builders principles.

Excpa,

I did type a reply but it sounded way too nasty so I had to edit it. I felt terrible after I posted it. I was thinking of my situation & it really hit home for me when you said "After 2 yrs, isn't it about time?" I know you feel as if you need to move on, but can't you do that w/o having an OP involved first? That isn't fair to her nor to you nor to your W.

Fine if you don't want to reconcile w/your W, that's your decision, but wouldn't it be better to completely end things w/your W first b4 getting more wrapped up in a relationship w/someone else? I mean, this is what we have a problem with w/our WS's to begin with. The fact that they chose an OP instead of coming to us & telling us that there was a problem & filling us in that they're planning on leaving? I think it's the same thing almost. Not quite the same, but I think you get my meaning.

Okay, there's not a chance in he** of reconciliation w/your W, but I'm thinking of my own sitch I guess in that my H chose to sleep w/her AFTER he moved out w/no plans on reconciliation w/me at all. He had his mind made up that he was getting D'd so he figured it was "okay" to have sex w/someone else.

Whether you "feel" married or not, you still are & I think you should act like it until it's officially over.

Love in Christ,
Y

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: StandingTogether ]</small>

Thanks everyone for your replies. They are a reflection of the many people encountered here. However, I think I need to retire this topic since the discussion has moved away from the original question.

For those of you who mirrored my feelings, thanks for your support, for those who disagree, thanks for your perspective, for those who are so interested in dissecting bits and pieces from a post....go chop on somebody else.

The replies may reflect the experiences or the opinion of others at a particular time; this often changes and I hope for some who replied that they do change. I think that there are many people separated, divorced, and even remarried who love and will always love their WS. When you love someone and it is not returned or when it is rejected then one has no choice but to move on with their lives; unilateral love is fruitless. No amount of love we feel for another can MAKE that person love us back; but we can still show that love throughout our lives. We do not however, have to become doormats for that person and subject ourselves to repeated humiliation and become stagnated.

We are all here because our marriage vows have been violated, or we have violated them ourselves, the question is how can we fix it... or is it broken for good. I have chosen, perhaps wrongly so, not to fall into the Humpty Dumpty syndrome where you try to fix the shattered egg. I'm just trying to keep the other eggs in my basket from getting broken.....after 2 years of separation and at age 54 I don't feel like I have much choice.
As for my sitch....Diane K probably gave me the most realistic eval....thanks. Again thank you all and good luck with your marriages.

However, I think I need to retire this topic since the discussion has moved away from the original question.
No, it hasn't moved away at all.
You asked about reconciliation.
You CANNOT reconcile while you are involved with someone else, regardless of what your wife does.
Why should your wife listen to anything you have to say (as in "The problem is I still love my WW but she is resistant to letting me witness her telling the OM the A is over and getting tested for STD's")?

I think that there are many people separated, divorced, and even remarried who love and will always love their WS.
Okay.

When you love someone and it is not returned or when it is rejected then one has no choice but to move on with their lives
And this is exactly the point I was getting at. You are NOT moving on. If you were moving on, you would either make an attempt at reconciliation or you would divorce. But you are choosing neither.

I have chosen, perhaps wrongly so, not to fall into the Humpty Dumpty syndrome where you try to fix the shattered egg. I'm just trying to keep the other eggs in my basket from getting broken.....
It looks much more like you are trying to keep all the broken eggs in your basket.

Your marriage may be over. I'm not trying to tell you which you should do (stay married or divorce). That is a decision for you and you alone to make.
I am suggesting you actually make a decision though and do everything you can to make it happen.

ecxpa

Man, I just can't resist posting here. I tried. You are an idiot if you even considered the WW comming home. But you are not an adultorer. Some of you were way too judgemental. They divided things had a "settlement". It was over. ecxpa was foolish for entertaining wacked out thoughts. But come on where's the understanding? $500 a month is a lot of money to a lot of people. Have you never been dirt poor? I have.
ecxpa, do what you need to do to survive and quit being stupid.
You may not be able to tell by this post, but I support you.

Peace, M

Yup -

I've been dirt poor.
Plenty of times in my life $500 per month would have come in really handy.

You're either married or you're divorced.
You're either sleeping with an OP while you're married to somebody else, or you're not.

One can use $ as one of the excuses to justify adultery, but it doesn't magically make the adultery non-adultery.

A lot of married people pretend adultery is not adultery, that THEIR situation is somehow special and being involved with an OP while still being married is justifiable.

You're confusing reality with justification.

The reality is adultery is being committed by him; the justifications are that his wife did it too and he didn't want to divorce before getting involved with the OW because of $.

No doubt there are plenty of sites online that endorse that sort of thing...

Marriage Builders isn't one of those sites.

Hi, ecxpa.

I have loosely kept up with your tribulations.

I can understand that you are done with your wife.

The truth is that you are in a very gray area. What you are doing is not okay.

What I think you should do immediately, is make a decision, then clean up your mess. You will find that you will respect yourself, and if you end up married to this woman, you will respect her more. If you continue in your current situation, the outcome will likely not be good.

Ask yourself this. Why is it that you feel you have rights to the $500/month

That is my $0.02 worth.

Gimble

Yes make a decision one way or the other. Both feet in or both feet out.

You are 54, how many more opportunities will you have to have a committed loving marriage?

If you care for this woman you are with do the right thing by her, and for your future.

If not, let her go and see what your wife's action will be. She is not yet repentent that is clear. Whether or not she ever will be remains to be seen.

After two years of being dumped on by her, of you being with someone we assume really cares about you and then she wants to come back. Lets say she does the hard work of recovery but after 8 months which Mel said seems to be the point where the real anger sets in for the WS during recovery...well what will that look like for you? Look what you will have gone through and given up because all of a sudden she decides she needs you to pick up the pieces of her mess.

If you reunite with your WS, can you make it through recovery? And at what cost?

I can imagine how hard this is for you and that is in my opinion the number one reason to avoid dating until your divorce is final and you are truly ready to move on.

I am not judging you, just hoping that you make a decision so the rest of your life is happier than the hell you have already gone through with this adultry business.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ask yourself this. Why is it that you feel you have rights to the $500/month
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say I dont think many here can answer this with any sure knowledge, you have to have been in the situation to understand it.

ecxpa is due this payment for being injured in combat - thats fighting and killing and having those around you killed in ways that NO movie can ever truly portray.

You can never fully explain to anyone, your spouse, your parents, anyone, the smell of defecation and blood nor the sounds , the horror is not capable of being truly passed on to anyone
... he EARNED his lousy $500 month as sadly many are still doing right now.
Dont begrudge him that for Gods sake.

To a certain extent it is the policy of a Government that has placed him in this situation. Don’t ask me how a injury affects you more or less because you are married or not??????????
If your leg doesn’t work any more then it doesn’t work any more. But explain that to a bureaucrat who only wants to save a quid to get his next bonus.

So please do not argue about this point at least, if you haven't been there then respectively, most have no idea what this does to you. And funny enough I'm envious of that.

Given a perfect world I'd say yes get a divorce
BEFORE you start dating, but its not always perfect.

ecxpa, your WW has a lot of problems by the sound of it, they are hers. Let her do something about it without you.
Let her do NC, let her get HER life together, then SHE can fight for you & if your relationship hasn't taken you to another place, where WW is no longer an option, then you can consider something then. I wouldn't stop living while she does this or not.
But thats just me.
She dug her own hole here and finds it too deep to get out of.
I'd only say be absolutely upfront & honest with both ladies. Dont copy WW deceptions

Good luck to you.

Well I kind of understand Aussie, after watching my dad die of alcoholism, broken by his two year stint in Nam.

I grew up on AF bases during this war, I remember all to well the frequent announcements of MIA's, POW's and deaths.

I even remember the visit to my house when my dad was shot down and listed as MIA.

The government does not take care of Vets. The medical insurance is a joke. Even for the cases of medical problems and cancers proven to be linked to Agent Orange, and for those missing limbs among other things.

I can't even tell you what we went through trying to get care for my dad, even though he was a highly decorated war hero. Not that that should have been given any higher consideration. We finally gave up on the Gov's help and used his entire life's saving, and his inheritance from his parents to pay for his care.

Although I have the highest respect and admiration for the different vets who helped us on their own time.

Unless things have changed since his death, it is deplorable the way these Viet Nam vets were treated.

I can't for the life of me understand why you would have to be married to collect the lousy $500/mo. But I don't doubt it for a minute.

Sorry for the threadjack.

edited - accidental double post

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Apparently the assumption (false) has been made that anyone who woudldn't endorse staying married just to collect the marriage part of the disability benefit $, must not think vets deserve their benefits?

I assure you I have no disrespect or lack of appreciation for our servicemen.

I do however have no repsect for adultery and fraud.

My father was in the Army, Navy, Air Force (20 years), then worked civil service two 10 year terms at Marine bases. Both of my brothers went into the service, one Navy, one Air Force. Three of my sisters, and two of their husbands were in the Air Force. One of my brothers-in-law may be sent to Iraq any day now. My father was in Viet Nam for a year when I was 14 years old. My siblings and I were in Civil Air Patrol as teens. Many of my daughters' friends are in Civil Air Patrol, planing military careers for their futures.

I certainly agree that military benefits have been shamefully cut. Very few people even realize that most military personal earn much less than the tax-funded teachers in the public school system (and they don't get 3 months vacation each summer).

This has nothing to do with saying he doesn't deserve his military benefits. But if he has to be married to receive THAT PART of the benefit, then in reality, that part of the benefit is to help support his wife, who is presumably still living with her disabled veteran hsband. That part of the benefit $ is not intended for him supporting just himself (let alone an OW), right?

If he 'feels' he's unmarried enough to excuse adultery, then why should he be allowed to pretend he's still married enough to get the marriage benefit? And in a way, if the benefit is tied to his being married, to the wife he was married to when he was in the military, then isn't this benefit really not to be used to support his adultery with an OW? Don't the taxpayers have some right to determine whether or not they should have any involvement in supporting adultery?

Now, if we're talking about what should be done to increase military benefits, I say PLENTY!
And if we're talking about whether or not he is getting enough for his disability, I would be one of the first to say no he isn't getting enough. If he feels he needs to resort to deception and possibly even something illegal in order to get enough to live on because otherwise his military benefits are inadequate for what he sacrificed to his country, then that is truly a disgrace. No doubt tax resources that are being wasted elsewhere could be redirected to our military personnel. IMHO he has a valid complaint and should put some pressure on taxpayers, those elected to represent him, and the military, to right this wrong. Why he would choose to lower himself to his wife's level instead makes no sense to me.

BUT what he is doing is still adultery. And he does NOT have a valid excuse to commit adultery.

He has a right to better compensation for risking his life for the citizens of this country.

He has a right to divorce his WW and THEN to start a new life with another woman.

He can obviously find plenty of people who will endorse his adultery and even pretend along with him that it isn't really adultery.

So be it.

But what some people posting here have difficulty in grasping is that not everyone is obligated to go along with his pretense. Some people call adultery by it's true name and are not fooled by the justifications. Adultery ALWAYS involves justification. The simple fact that there are justifications involved, even financial ones when the money may be needed, does not negate the fact that it is still adultery.

Let's say a woman is married to a wealthy man but she falls in love with the pool boy. Is the wealthy wife entitled to stay married to her wealthy husband, while committing adultery with the poor pool boy, just because divorcing would sharply decrease her income? Nope. If the wife feels she is entitled to a portion of the wealthy husband's income after divorce she can go to court and fight for it there.

Subversiveness, deception, justification, pretense, excuses... ENTITLEMENT...adultery.

This is an anti-adultery site.

This is not an:
'well let's hear your justifications and then we'll take a vote and see how many posters will pretend along with you that in THIS case it's not really adultery' site.

This is also not a 'let's bash people who confront adultery and don't fall for the justifications for adultery site!'

And this is most definitly not a 'let's pretend people who object to their taxes going to support the OW are anti-military-benefits site'!

There is a BIG difference between saying you agree he doesn't owe his wife another chance and that his best bet is to divorce her

OR

saying since he has grounds for divorce he can just use that as an excuse for adultery himself instead of getting a divorce

That's the sort of slippery slope logic that adultery opponents stay off of. Who knows how far that can lead one astray... Stay on that slope long enough and some people even manage to convince themselves that the solution is to murder the wife and pretend that the OW is the murdered wife so they can keep getting that marriage part of the benefit forever.

weaver, go ahead and thread jack, seems like a lot of us (including me) have. Several posts back ecxpa said he was done with this one. Sorry guy, I must have missed that post. I just figured out that sometimes there is more than one page. (computer illiterate).
If anyone wants to continue on the morality issue, post a new thread and I will gladly reply.
As for the military side road to this. My father was in the military, my husband, my brother, my brother-in-law. I also worked with disabled vets. Seen a lot of heartache. Each and every one of those men are heros.
M

MM you'll NEVER get me to ok adultery being on the receiving end of it. No argument with that side of the issue.
Believe me its been very hard to accept that while I was bleeding like a stuck pig my W was less than faithful.... (but she is trying so hard I know that.)
I'm just saying the vet payment is not exactly structured on sensible rules in this sort of case & I feel -just IMHO - that hes been through enough and shouldn't have to lose that as well....
all the BS, men & women just seem to pay & pay sometimes & I just reckon he shouldn't have to be punished again when he didn't cause the M to break up thats all. Should be more flexibility for anyone in his sit avail from his Vet Affairs.

Weaver you know how it is, guess this sort of big trigger for me - you think??? lol - I hear so much bull S*** from people who dont understand I get a bit peeved every now & then, so to finish this once & for all, let the man have his lousy $500 a month <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ecxpa:
<strong> Chris....they are not her assets. I receive a service connected disability pension due to injuries I received in combat before I was married. If you are married you get so much for that....if you divorce you lose the married veteran status and go to the single veteran status.....they don't give the difference to the spouse they just take it away. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two things.
1 - They don’t give the difference to the spouse but neither do you! (you are buying something from her, not GIVING her that money).

2 - So you got the disability BEFORE you were married?
The only reason you are getting it is because you are married and since you feel your marriage is over then???
As meremortal wrote above, you get more being married because that is to help you support your spouse, which you are not doing.

And to the others here, getting something any way you can (as long as you feel you deserve it), is acceptable?

Hey, wait a minute!?! Almost every single spouse says something along these lines to justify their affair. “I deserve it (the affair) because you weren’t paying attention to me!”

My point is you said you want to move on.
Then why aren’t you trying to move on?
Stay married and do something about it or get a divorce...

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aussie2:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ask yourself this. Why is it that you feel you have rights to the $500/month
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say I dont think many here can answer this with any sure knowledge, you have to have been in the situation to understand it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, aussie2.

I understood that the money was a disability payment, at least part of it.

My point was simply this.

His moral base has either shifted, or POSSIBLY needs some consideration.

Accepting moneys not *specifically* due him if he is unmarried, or remaining in a state of 'gray' with another woman in the mix, while understandable in the short term given his situation, is unacceptable in the long term. At least to me.

I have the greatest respect for our military personnel, past and present, for reasons I won't go into here.

I do NOT disrespect ecxpa's service to our country, I do question his motives in the present state of his marital situation. That is why I asked him, what was intended to be a rhetorical question, for his perusal.

All the best,
Gimble