Hello All,

I just stumbled across this article and thought insightful and funny. It addresses topics I have seen posted here many times. I look forward to your comments as I am sure there will be plenty.

Here it is Something about men

Enjoy,

JL

JL,

Having read through it once, I'm left with two initial reactions.

1. How lonely many men must be if this article is true! I thought of my H as I read it, trying it on for size, to see if it "fit". It broke my heart to think of my H in these situations.

2. I think his analogies are off target sometimes. In one of his last paragraphs he asks if you would walk down the street in nothing but your underwear if it made your man happy... and concedes that you might, but you wouldn't want to make a habit of it. He's likening this to a man buying flowers or opening the door or engaging in some other painful (because it contradicts his inner definition of masculine) behavior.

I think this is a clumsy analogy at best. You can't compare a socially unacceptable behavior with a social norm. He'd have made his point better if he compared it to a woman who cooked delicacies during the courting years but ceased after marriage because it went against her views of self, and caused her to feel she was a slave to her H or similar.

In summary - my first reaction is "interesting, but clumsy."

But I'm not a guy. What did YOU think about it? I value your views highly.


Edited to add - it *was* funny. Maybe some of the humor (the underwear analogy) was lost on me and I took portions seriously that were intended to be hyperbole?

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: turtlehead ]</small>

Hi Turtlehead,

It has been a long time since I have seen your here.
I thought the opening paragraphs were pretty much dead on, and I really think he nailed the friendship thing. It is not true for everyone, but consider what you read here.

If an H has a bunch of guy friends,what does he do? He hangs with them, and what does the W complain about...that he hangs with his friends.

But, for most men, I think it is true that their best friend is their W, not "the guys".

If you read here and have this in your mind I think you will see that this is the case and that is why men and women react a bit differently. Men do not have support groups nor do they really confide in other men. Yes, it is lonely.

I do agree some of his other points are a bit clumsy, but I think his point may be valid. It is always about perspective,and how men define themselves is based on their perspective of the men they model. Not any different for women.

What that means is that what would be obvious to you or me, and surely one sees it on this site, is NOT obvious to the person in it. The FOO issues are really with us.

I mean how many women post about having sexual problems with their H, having been abused as teenagers or children? It changes how they see things and while it is not "reasonable" to blame the H for these things, somehow it spills over.

It is true for men as well. We have our "unwritten" codes you know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I think he was expressing that some of them seem really dumb until you understand the process by which they were gotten.

So I really liked is thoughts on friends, had a response similar to yours about some of the other parts. However, I must say, I seem to find myself talking to people a lot about perspective on this site and his ideas do touch on it, although like you I think it could have been phrased better.

How are you doing these days? It is good to see you here.

God Bless,

JL

I think the part about no close friends and no emotional support network is true for many men, and definitely for my H. That makes me sad on his behalf sometimes - not because I think he's lonely (though he may be). He says he's happy without any close friends. My sadness on his behalf is because I've read in many different places that one of the factors which contributes to a longer healthier life (and the ability to survive crises well) is a good emotional support network. So I'm not sad for him "because he's lonely" but because from my perspective he's missing out on an important aspect of a well rounded healthy existence.

In my H's particular case, the flowers and holding the door and all that is quite easy for him to do. In fact, he brought me two giant size Nestle Crunch bars this morning "because he noticed I was out of chocolate" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> I understand that those were just easy examples the author was using. They were the vehicle, not the specific point he was trying to make.

So... my "job" now is to ponder how my H defines his own masculinity and realize when my requests or expectations for seemingly simple behaviors go against that. I think this will be good! I will quit putting pressures on him unwittingly, and I will better avoid setting myself up for disappointments or - even worse - seeing his reluctance as a manifestation of his feelings for me.

I'm flattered that you remember me; you are one of my very favorite posters. I enjoy these boards very much because they make me think and help me grow. OTOH sometimes they put me into a negative frame of mind and the old wounds act up a bit.

How am I doing these days? I absolutely could not be better. Healthy, good employment, kids all doing well. H is my hero and my knight again, the light of my life, my rock, my confidante, my best friend, and the source of my greatest amusement (usually intentionally <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I still have personal issues to work on (don't we all?) such as conflict avoidance, assertiveness, and realizing that I'm worthy. These issues are almost completely constrained to my M and don't spill over into the rest of my life, and H has made the M a very safe place for me to step out and find my voice. He treats me so well I don't get much practice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Life is very, very good.

Thank you for asking.

This writer does seem to understand what's going on. The other article about "why men don't talk" is also pretty much dead on.

-AD

I'd rather be right than the president of Harvard.

Dr. Lawrence Summers

"Nothing really matters,
Anyone can see,
Nothing really matters-,nothing really matters to me,'

-Queen, "Bohemian Rhapsody"


Sorry. In a bad-@$$ mood 2day.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I thought that article, especially the first few opening paragraphs was DEAD ON. At least, it certainly described me, and I assume I'm a typical male....

Thanks JL.

David

The interestesting thing...

I don't see any of that "I don't do women's work" attitude in myself. I enjoy doing things for my wife and I used to clean the kitchen daily - dishes and all.

But, W's nephew (22) is another creature altogether. He always has an insult ready for/about women. I pity him really. He often cooks for himself, and washes his own clothes - but that is only because he otherwise would be hungry and smelly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The thing is - he realizes sometimes that this is just a bad habit. He especially feels bad about insulting his grandmother - says "I don't know why I do that". Every time he goes home (his grandma lives with his folks) he intends to do something to let her know how much he appreciates and values her - but it never seems to happen. Probably she'll die thinking he has no respect for her.

-AD

Hi, JL.

I enjoyed the article, but I have a couple of questions not covered in the article.

Why would any woman get turned on by guys singing falsetto? Or, more importantly, what is it that would possess a man to do such a thing?

I have often wondered if I was missing some potentially huge feminine encounter by not singing falsetto, or maybe I just wasn't man enough to handle the pressure. After all, a song titled "Walk Like a Man", sung falsetto, can't be all wrong.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Gimble

Squid and I once made friends with the daughter of nobel prize winner whose husband is a famous counter tenor ( falsetto) who has sung on all the famous opera stages, wheil staying on an estate in Greece that Lord Byron's cousin had built.

Hah ! THAT a wierd story huh ?

All the folks there were nodding and stroking their chins when they played a recording of his, and myself and Squid were trying not to wee ourselves stifling laugter !

Good days.

JL,

I really like the article, especially the part about the absense of door opening and the failure of men to notice the appearance thing.

The smell of BO makes me physically ill and with my ex it was a sure "amore" killer, can't help it.

Also as a daughter of an alcoholic I have always been attracted to men who are not good for me.

I guess a way we could help men to open up is to ask them what their view of masculinity is, and to go from there.

The SF part where he talks about our man wanting to try something that we find disgusting hit home too. Since being on MB though I am trying to become open minded with areas I refused to explore in the past, but I will give it a go now that I realize the importance of this.

Part of the problem in the SF arena for women I think is that we have not had much exposure to doing different things during SF. The first time my ex asked me to try something kind of disgusting to me I thought he was out of his mind. Some kind of pervert or something. Now that I know that other people do it and actually find pleasure in it I am more inclined to want to please him this way. (of course if we ever reconcile that is) Education is the key in this area and knowing that other people enjoy it and they are not freaks.

Haven't read the other two articles yet, but am looking forward to them when I have more time.

Gimble,

Danged if I know, I never could figure it out, and frankly it doesn't do a thing for me, but I did some of the songs. I have another thing that makes me wonder. Have you noticed that all of the "hunky" guys all missed shaving today? Or was it a month ago? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What is up with that?

When I was a kid/young man (I know 2L, BEFORE you knocked off the first dino <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) women did not like to get the old 5 o'clock brillo pad treatment. Something has change or perhaps these guys are just trying to PROVE they are men.

My Grandmother who passed at 93 and did this in late 70's LOVED Elvis partly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> because he sang with the voice of a man.

David: My take on this article was more about men mimicing what they feel me "should" be. If you grew up helping around the house, then helping around the house is "no biggie". If you grew up with roles that men where only in the house to eat, sleep and have sex, then helping around the house was interpretted as something else. I think that was the point. We are who we pattern ourselves after:male and female. Sometimes that patterning is not so easy to see or understand, such as his diatribe about bathing.

My FATHER would of killed me with that sort of attitude, and my mother would have just embarressed the heck out of me, but neither of them thought hard work and sweat was something to be ashamed of.

WAT:

You do understand what your chances of being the President of Harvard are don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> About the same as mine. You and I think too much alike to be put in a place where telling people what you think is something to be avoided. Heck now you know why I left D.C. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2L,

Get it together man, you are still roving so pay attention to your driving or you may hit a rock, and get changed with mutulating LIFE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have no idea what the fine is on your planet, but I am sure it is steep.

Bob,

Ah! the intelligencia (appropriately misspellled) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Aren't they fun to watch. I like/love classical music but I have yet to figure out why people seem to think it is a sign of intelligence to listen to it. Sort of like the falsetto Gimble asked about.

TurtleH,

I am glad things are going well. It is really pretty reassuring to hear your story and I think it offers many here a glimpse of what their future can be. But, don't go too "sensitive" on your H, now Ya hear, us guys are still a little thick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am glad you found the article at least thought provoking. I posted it on the EN section and the first view posts seemed to have missed the point, or as Bob might say "they lost the plot."

Must go.

JL

"The thing is - he realizes sometimes that this is just a bad habit. He especially feels bad about insulting his grandmother - says "I don't know why I do that". Every time he goes home (his grandma lives with his folks) he intends to do something to let her know how much he appreciates and values her - but it never seems to happen. Probably she'll die thinking he has no respect for her."

What's sad is that he probably does this, not because he doesn't respect women himself, but because his definition of manly behavior was learned from a rold model who did dislike women.

IMHO it is important for all people, male or female to take the time, from time to time, to think about why they act the way they do, whether or not the role models they are copying are good or not. It's understandable that children don't get to choose who influences them, but IMHO part of being an adult is choosing which of the habits you acquired you will retain and which you will replace.

Of course, it's not easy to relearn but ease is simply not a good enough excuse to continue doing something that may be depriving you and your loved ones of feeling happy, loved, safe.

In order to reconcile with my WH, I will have to be convinced he is willing and able to overcome a lot of early childhood programming, compounded by decades of practice in bad habits. It is obvious this sort of self-examiniation and some of the things I would need to feel safe again, may just be too much for him to handle. And that's sad because he really isn't happy as he is. He's very lonely and his odds of finding a woman who can put up with his methods of trying to get his needs met are extremely slim. He simply does not know how to have a healthy, non-abusive, faithful relationship.

I can't help thinking he learned his manipulative ways partly out of desperation and fear, at an age when he was too young and scared to defend himself from unhealthy role models. It's like somebody who learned to swim because they were tossed off a boat so it was sink or swim. They didn't have the advantage of taking swim lessons and learning the effective proper technique step-by-step in a safe environment. So they can swim, sort of, but it sure ain't purty and they won't be invited to join any swim teams. Trauma and fear are not conducive to learning the best way to do things.

I believe my WH really is torn:
He wants to have his wife and family back...
But it scares him too. Because he doesn't know how to treat his wife and kids respectfully AND to protect his self image at the same time. His role model of manhood was not provided by somebody who treated women and children with respect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meremortal:
<strong> What's sad is that he probably does this, not because he doesn't respect women himself, but because his definition of manly behavior was learned from a rold model who did dislike women.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meremortal,

I'm sure you are partly right about this. He got this behaviour from his Dad. He fears his Dad and imitates him. But I do think it is not just behaviour but a real belief that women are inferiour. Or perhaps it is a hope that women are inferiour - so that at least some people are lower than him. He has some kind of inferiority complex.

Meanwhile, he lives with us - and drives my W up the wall with his constant disrespectful comments.

Right now, he doesn't have a GF. (His last was was married. I put a stop to that!) I don't know what his long-term prospects will be - with his current attitude. There are, unfortunately, women who will accept verbal abuse - and I guess he will eventually find one. I don't think he would ever physically abuse a woman. That would be just as unmanly to him as showing respect to one.

As for your H...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meremortal:
<strong>I can't help thinking he learned his manipulative ways partly out of desperation and fear, at an age when he was too young and scared to defend himself from unhealthy role models. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure you are right. And I would suggest that what he was afraid of is being found inferior - or perhaps simply rejection.

-AD

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

Very interesting JL, very interesting indeed...

Hey JL,

Good article. Think a new movie should come out about: A scent of a man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Instead of Al Pacino it s/b Drew Carey. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wow, gonna have my H read this article. Did realize how hard some of the words in our language are for u guys. Been trying to teach my son how to work on being happy with himself as a person and not be afraid to speak his mind (which he does) but also consider the feelings of others without letting them control you. He is one sensitve kid and he already sees the difference between himself and his dad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

As for the 'soap' issue, it seems to stem from boys...... the need t/b stinky, is it in the Y chormosone? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> This gal just don't get it. I get a turned up nose when I put on the mildest perfume, use natural handmade soaps or even therapuetic aroma therapy oils yet pass gas and you got them rolling on the floor with no mention of how distgusting it is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Now I'd like to see that phemomena explained. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

Aloha,
L.

JL, thought provoking as always. Not sure it really rings true with me but interesting none the less.

I do think they are somewhat off base on the male friends thing though. Let me turn this around a bit. How many of you ladies would really like us to hang with a bunch of other guys. Keep in mind, most men are just little boys that got big. The more of us that there are together the higher the probability that something will go wrong. Those of you with sons know exactly what I am talking about.

I have many male friends but the activities we shared prior to Mrs. E do not fit in a M. Does this mean we are not friends? No. Does this mean we don't spend a great deal of time together? Yes.

I also think that women and men look for different things in friends. Men tend to look for playmates, women tend to look for someone they can share the intermost feeling with.

Just some early morning ramblings.

Always remember IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!