sour male:

I guess I should be addressing your concern about "admiration" and respect as it pertains to recovering Some Type of relationship with a WS.......but that's just not where I'm "feeling" this at the moment.

Instead what's talking to me.....is your points about the WH that willingly Father's children and then Decides to Go NC with them.

Like YOU my thought is........."WTF is Up with That"????

If you read Pep's thread on "pet peeves" then you saw I feel much as you do about this.

(By the way I am a BC myself (as well as now a BS).....so Yes this has shaped my view on the subject).

Perhaps later I can get into that more in depth and explain my thoughts and reasons.

However, for NOW I just wanted you to Know that your Are NOT the Only one to Have this Type of a Reaction.
I share in your Shock and Dismay.

I will admit that I've only read your initial post (and can't comment on anything that may have been brought up since , at least at this time).

Only good news I have for you is that as I type this post you only have approximately 7 hours left on your Shift. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Hope that can help Cheer you up!

I find disgust in the fact that there was such a rallying cry for No Contact with these other innocent children. Am I some horrible human being that I found myself almost symphathising with the OW who had an OC by the MM with regards to CS and contact?

lemonman,

I was and still am equally appalled when I read that. It's license to emotionally ABANDON a child and it is disgusting...and obscenely selfish. Regardless of how that child is conceived, it is deserving of emotional support as well as financial.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My xWS said that he would like to reconcile but realized he could never ask me to accept a child from an OW. At the same time, he told me that he would never abandon a child that was his. He said that the child was innocent and deserved to have his father in his life in some capacity. I totally agreed. That is when some respect for my xWS came back onboard!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">heartfailure,

Exactly! A man that would emotionally abandon his child, regardless of the circumstances of conception and birth is NO man. A woman that would ask that of him, is NO woman either. IN MY OPINION.

It is sad that a woman would ask that...the thing that makes it sadder is when a "Mother" would ask that. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I could cry for the children that have no father in their lives...all because BOTH parents made a choice to have unprotected (and adulterous) sex...and he thinks he has a "right" to abandon that child.

I would actually dump a man for something like that... not for the infidelity as much for the emotional abandonment of his child.

Marriage vows do not a Father make. If he did it to a child born out of wedlock or from an adulterous affair, there is NOTHING to keep it from happening to children that are born of the marriage. It is a character flaw.

Please Understand...this is just MY... MY opinion. Did I say MY opionion? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

committed

Commited, Toprope, and Heart Failure, and others:

THANK YOU for at least letting me see that "it was just not me" who has these thoughts about the NC stuff that goes on in the other board. The stuff I read on that board had me so down and angry yesterday, and I felt so incredibly guilty for the way I felt about it. I was really wondering if it was just me who didn't "get it". This is not a thread to bash people who choose NC, but I feel good that my own opinions on this matter were at least validated by some.
I know I am a weird dude here and usually flying solo with my opinions, but it is refreshing to see that others have similar opinions as me on occassion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am doing better today. Had a good night last night, with 6 UNINTERRUPTED hours of sleep. I had to make sure my pager was working and called the operator twice to ask. There is nothing more unnerving than a pager that sits on a table waiting to go off, signifying WORK...LOL
An egg white omelet with a large cup of java has my spirits up this morning. The shift is OVER in less than 7 hours.

I want to thank those of you who have contributed to this thread. It was kind of cathartic for me. I needed this. Thank You.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lemonman....

I just looked in on your thread here this morning....did not see what you posted in replly to me until now.

I agree with you on a lot of points re: my WH.

I guess my nature is to keep trying. However, I have finally gotten to the point where almost all of the love I have for WH is gone.

And I guess, that after seeing from your point of view, I think it would be better to be done with all of this.

But 32 years is a long time, and I knew WH back when......

And like the addict, that says he is trying to clean up, and then keeps going back....they are weak and were deserving of the first couple of chances. After that, they just become an irritation to everyone.....and are lost to themselves.

And thank God, in my situation, there is no OC. I would be truly done with WH, and tell him he needs to go take care of his new family. Every child deserves love and support (emotional and financial).

Everybody deserves a second chance.....my WH has had many chances. And, like the addict, he must feed his addiction. He cannot break free. And now he (and his lies) have become an irritation.

For me, I have been $hit on so many times, that I was beginning to stink too. I'm digging myself out now.....I don't like $hit.

Like I told WH before, obviously he can be honest with every one BUT me.

I see that as my fault....because I did not demand better from the first.

Who knows what the future holds. Like they say, I've been doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

Times, they are a changin'!!!!

You rock LM!!!

K

I'll throw in my .02 for what it is worth, although I try to stay off these boards lately sharing my own story!

The OW gave birth almost 3 weeks ago! My H has seen the child a few times...I have never seen the child! My H is pursuing paternity and we will set up an account for the child for CS if the child is my H's...

Call me wierd, call me insane, I dont care...but I actually look forward to the day when I can embrace the child as it's stepmother...IF the H and I reconcile! IF!!!!!!! I am a very motherly type person, and I have said from the beginning I will accept the CHILD but not the OW in my life...

Will I ever completely forgive the H? NO! Will I admire him? Yes, for taking a part in the CHILDS life! I said that the CHILD should not be here, because it is a product of an AFFAIR, but the CHILD is here and I will love the child as one of my OWN! Just the same! I would only EXPECT my H to take part in the CHILDS life emotionally AND financially! THe child deserves a FATHER and a MOTHER and this child will be blessed with TWO mothers IF we reconcile! and three brothers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Do I feel sorry for the OW? Yes, I do...because she CHOSE to have an AFFAIR with a MARRIED man and now she is a SINGLE mother! it was HER choice, to have the AFFAIR...she could have said NO YOU ARE MARRIED...but she didn't, even after I called her and my kids were in the background playing...she continued to sleep with him!

Am I angry with my H! Your damn right I am! IF I choose to reconcile with him, he will have to EARN his way back here! EARN his trust...EARN everything!

Am I babbling? Yes I am! I will stop now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I find disgust in the fact that there was such a rallying cry for No Contact with these other innocent children. Am I some horrible human being that I found myself almost symphathising with the OW who had an OC by the MM with regards to CS and contact?

In my opinion...

NC with the OC can be an appropriate choice at times.

When?

When the OW / MM use the OC connection to continue their love affair.

It happends ---> frequently .

There are difficult choices to be made.

There are numerous examples of the affair re-kindling due to OC contact. There are numerous examples of OW harrassing the family and creating ongoing misery and chaos for the family.

And sometimes, NC is the solution to end the misery for the family.

I find disgust for your unsympathetic disgust for a family stuck between a rock and a hard place!

Some choices are beyond difficult. Lose-lose if you will. How can we decide that someone making such a lose-lose choice is automatically wrong because an OC might suffer? What if contact caused your own child to suffer? What if contact caused unspeakable anxiety for your children? What if contact caused legal expenses that ruined the family finances so your children would grow up in poverty? It's often a lose-lose proposition.

Pep

Having been a member of MB BEFORE the boards split up into separate forums, I had several close MB friends that went to the P/C forum. I followed their progress and continued to post to them over there. I also have OC issues in my own family and have an interest and some experience with many of the topics.

I find it interesting the disgust and disdain expressed towards those that chose No Contact. Unless you have followed these stories from day one,,or "walked in these shoes" you will never know the pain and anguish that goes along with making these kind of decisions. It's a decision I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

Kinda like the choice we all had to make when we discovered our spouses had strayed. I always said "Cheat on me ONCE and we are over!!" Well when I found I actually had to put those shoes ON and walk in them, I found myself here, trying to find ways to save this marriage. My strong stance and convictions weakened when I was dealing with the REALITY of the situation.

Preconceived notions and idealistic stands go out the window when you are actually placed in that position. And I sincerely hope none of you find yourself in that place where you HAVE to really make those choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I find disgust in the fact that there was such a rallying cry for No Contact with these other innocent children. Am I some horrible human being that I found myself almost symphathising with the OW who had an OC by the MM with regards to CS and contact?


Some choices are beyond difficult. Lose-lose if you will. How can we decide that someone making such a lose-lose choice is automatically wrong because an OC might suffer? What if contact caused your own child to suffer? What if contact caused unspeakable anxiety for your children? What if contact caused legal expenses that ruined the family finances so your children would grow up in poverty? It's often a lose-lose proposition.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep:

Yep, noone is disputing that this is a lose-lose situation. It sucks anyway you slice it. That will NOT change my opinion on the rallying cry of the NC stuff that goes on "over there". I don't have to have suffered the indignity of that situation to have an opinion on it. It piises me off to no end when people get on their mighty horse and say that noone can have an opinion on this sunject of they have not lived it. BS. Nevertheless, I don't post my opinions on there as to not ruffle the feathers of those who are in such obvious pain and who don't need or want to hear an opinion that they will disagree with. Pepper, I respect your opinions but I am entitled to my opinion, as you are yours. Lets not turn this thread into an argument over NC/C or whatever, that was not the intent of this thread. I know that the situations for these BS whose husbands have fathered other children has to be almost INTOLERABLE pain. You don't have to convince me of that. Lets just drop this argument. Please let it be what it is. You CANNOT ever change my mind on this subject, so let us agree to disagree on this.

LM

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

LM,
I questioned this myself in the "early" days.
One can safely assume that for every person that finds MB, and does a stellar job at trying to salvage a M after an A, there are perhaps 2 or 3 that simply shut the door and walk away.

Had I NOT found MB, would have been in the latter. I didn't think it was possible or reasonable. Maybe MB brainwashed me, who knows.

HOWEVER, and I'm going out on the proverbial limb here, alot of what I read in your posts, make me wonder if even though you chose what path was right FOR you, if someone participation in MB makes you second guess not only your XWW, but your own decision ?

Perhaps you wonder if you did the right thing, IF things were different would you two have been able to make it through, undeniable whatifs.

I'm not sure if it's much help to you, but I can assure you every single BS standing along side you, whether they chose Plan D, Plan A, or Plan B, succumb to the whatifs, quite frequently.

What YOU chose, was right FOR YOU. It may not be the chosen path of another. Does that make that path wrong ? No, it just means we took different paths.

As to the OW/MM/OC thingy, well I don't venture into that territory, because I know not of what they speak, feel, endure, or struggle through, and I won't even pretend to know. As a matter of fact, H knows that if OW ever shows up at our door with OC in tow, end of marriage. I don't know if there is an OC, I have no reason to believe so, but when NC starts, it means just that. NC..and he stuck to it. Who knows what became of her life ? Just a stipulation I had to put on the table before we reconciled. I was pretty unyielding, one false recovery, OC, Plan D, no looking back. But I have nothing at stake with my H but my M, my union. We have no children together, and we are both educated, and self sufficient when it comes to finances.

Even though we chose different paths, I'm sorry you're going through this in your life. I agree that you deserved much better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> LM,

As to the OW/MM/OC thingy, well I don't venture into that territory, because I know not of what they speak, feel, endure, or struggle through, and I won't even pretend to know. As a matter of fact, H knows that if OW ever shows up at our door with OC in tow, end of marriage. I don't know if there is an OC, I have no reason to believe so, but when NC starts, it means just that. NC..and he stuck to it. Who knows what became of her life ? Just a stipulation I had to put on the table before we reconciled. I was pretty unyielding, one false recovery, OC, Plan D, no looking back. But I have nothing at stake with my H but my M, my union. We have no children together, and we are both educated, and self sufficient when it comes to finances.

Even though we chose different paths, I'm sorry you're going through this in your life. I agree that you deserved much better. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BIJ:

Thanks for the post. Your words make sense. I have read where you fear that the OW might have an OC that you do not know about. Is there any reason why you feel there may be an OC? I hope and pray that that never comes to fruition for you. I am happy that you have been able to recover your marriage and life. It is nice to see true "success" stroies here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nerlycrzy:
<strong> I find it interesting the disgust and disdain expressed towards those that chose No Contact. Unless you have followed these stories from day one,,or "walked in these shoes" you will never know the pain and anguish that goes along with making these kind of decisions. It's a decision I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How did I know that this thread was going to garner posts like this. I cannot manipulate how I feel about the subject. I was struggling with this yesterday and I posted it looking for some opinions. I am sorry that my opinion of things and yours don't mesh. That is ok. We are all different and entitled to our own thoughts on this. Lets not turn this thread into a NC vs C thing. That debate will only get ugly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Momto3Boys:
<strong> I'll throw in my .02 for what it is worth, although I try to stay off these boards lately sharing my own story!

The OW gave birth almost 3 weeks ago! My H has seen the child a few times...I have never seen the child! My H is pursuing paternity and we will set up an account for the child for CS if the child is my H's...

Call me wierd, call me insane, I dont care...but I actually look forward to the day when I can embrace the child as it's stepmother...IF the H and I reconcile! IF!!!!!!! I am a very motherly type person, and I have said from the beginning I will accept the CHILD but not the OW in my life...

Will I ever completely forgive the H? NO! Will I admire him? Yes, for taking a part in the CHILDS life! I said that the CHILD should not be here, because it is a product of an AFFAIR, but the CHILD is here and I will love the child as one of my OWN! Just the same! I would only EXPECT my H to take part in the CHILDS life emotionally AND financially! THe child deserves a FATHER and a MOTHER and this child will be blessed with TWO mothers IF we reconcile! and three brothers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Do I feel sorry for the OW? Yes, I do...because she CHOSE to have an AFFAIR with a MARRIED man and now she is a SINGLE mother! it was HER choice, to have the AFFAIR...she could have said NO YOU ARE MARRIED...but she didn't, even after I called her and my kids were in the background playing...she continued to sleep with him!

Am I angry with my H! Your damn right I am! IF I choose to reconcile with him, he will have to EARN his way back here! EARN his trust...EARN everything!

Am I babbling? Yes I am! I will stop now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MOM:

How are things goign with you and your children? I can't seem to figure out if you have reconciled with your WH. Have you? Are you still working on that? Let me know. I haven't really seen an update on your situation. I hope things in your life are better. Your struggles over the past year have been tough, and having it go "national" can NOT have possibly helped things. I can't say I am ever rooting for your WH, but if it is him and your marriage that you want, I hope that you get them.

LM

LM,

I for one have always appreciated your posts even if I haven't agreed w/them all. Ironically, you sound a lot like my H (excluding the adultery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). What I mean is, you both give your honest opinions w/o holding anything back.

I have forgiven my H & I respect & admire him completely. Why? I shouldn't have then. This was a man who walked out on his family that was supposed to mean everything to him (didn't have contact w/his kids telling them he was ok or where he was for 6 days straight), lied to them when they saw him on the phone w/his OW while I was at work & told them she was "a friend" of his, had my DD keep this "secret friend" to herself, would go see the OW instead of coming to see his children on more than one occasion. Did he deserve respect then? Did he deserve admiration then? No. He didn't. But I taught my kids to respect him anyway. And I kept praying that I could find something to respect him for while he was gone.

After I did that, he started to come around more, he apologized to me & the kids for the way he walked out, he apologized to our DD for asking her to keep the truth from me about this "friend", etc. He started to do things that I could admire him for. He started to admit his own failings as a S & as a father. These acts made me appreciate him more as a person, willing to admit his own flaws.

When God showed me what it was that I did to diminish the M & push my H away from me (not into the arms of an OW, that was his own choice, but away from me personally), I saw a lot of failings about myself that I needed to change. So I began to look at myself more & not concentrate so much on my H’s actions & looked at my own. I saw what my H had been complaining about for years but I was just too stubborn to see & I had no room to say his actions were any worse than my own. God was speaking to me in my own heart that I was supposed to take a look at my own behaviors & to quit criticizing his.

After his return, he started to show me the man I had admired from the beginning. He is a very compassionate, caring man who admitted his own mistakes, wasn’t afraid to tell his kids that he screwed up majorly, and is trying everything he knows how to make amends to all of us. He has humbled himself & for that I can admire him.

Sometimes it takes a while but if done w/humility, a person can respect & admire someone who betrayed them in the worst possible way.

Love in Christ,
Y

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StandingTogether:
<strong> LM,

I for one have always appreciated your posts even if I haven't agreed w/them all. Ironically, you sound a lot like my H (excluding the adultery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). What I mean is, you both give your honest opinions w/o holding anything back.

I have forgiven my H & I respect & admire him completely. Why? I shouldn't have then. This was a man who walked out on his family that was supposed to mean everything to him (didn't have contact w/his kids telling them he was ok or where he was for 6 days straight), lied to them when they saw him on the phone w/his OW while I was at work & told them she was "a friend" of his, had my DD keep this "secret friend" to herself, would go see the OW instead of coming to see his children on more than one occasion. Did he deserve respect then? Did he deserve admiration then? No. He didn't. But I taught my kids to respect him anyway. And I kept praying that I could find something to respect him for while he was gone.

After I did that, he started to come around more, he apologized to me & the kids for the way he walked out, he apologized to our DD for asking her to keep the truth from me about this "friend", etc. He started to do things that I could admire him for. He started to admit his own failings as a S & as a father. These acts made me appreciate him more as a person, willing to admit his own flaws.

When God showed me what it was that I did to diminish the M & push my H away from me (not into the arms of an OW, that was his own choice, but away from me personally), I saw a lot of failings about myself that I needed to change. So I began to look at myself more & not concentrate so much on my H’s actions & looked at my own. I saw what my H had been complaining about for years but I was just too stubborn to see & I had no room to say his actions were any worse than my own. God was speaking to me in my own heart that I was supposed to take a look at my own behaviors & to quit criticizing his.

After his return, he started to show me the man I had admired from the beginning. He is a very compassionate, caring man who admitted his own mistakes, wasn’t afraid to tell his kids that he screwed up majorly, and is trying everything he knows how to make amends to all of us. He has humbled himself & for that I can admire him.

Sometimes it takes a while but if done w/humility, a person can respect & admire someone who betrayed them in the worst possible way.

Love in Christ,
Y </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the post. I am happy that you found admiration for your WH and that you are working on recovery. I do wholeheartedly disgagree with you however where you say that your actions (whatever they may have been in your marriage) were anything close to what your husband did to you and your children. I was not perfect in my marriage, but there is no way possible in my life that I would ever betray my marriage with infidelity. People can talk about "Fog", and "aliens" and "neurohormonal transmitters" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> till the sun comes up, but I know that I could and would NOT ever do that. Despite what people think.....Cheating on your spouse is a DELIBERATE choice made of 100% free will.

Anyways, thanks for the post, and may God bless you and your family in your recovery.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM,

E-mail me your addy at
NCWalker

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

LM,

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks for the best wishes. I wish you well too as you try to recover yourself.

{{{LM}}}

Love in Christ,
Y

To answer your original question Lemonman, I am in agreement with you.

Sometimes I wonder if I did all I could do in that despite my outside efforts to facilitate in trying to bring my xws home, I secretly harbored feelings of resentment to him.

In the end, I can say that yes, I do NOT respect my xh in anything he did. He began as an unfaithful husband, and then tripped off into the sunset leaving his brain and morality behind him.

And yes...we are on a similar timeline with regards to the divorces...I think I hit the "anger" phase last year about late summer. It is still there, but I keep it very well in check and under my hat. How to do that? I run, read, be a committed mom to my little boy, and yes...work. And like you, am in med field and also enjoy the distraction of working as when it's all quiet is when I have the flashbacks to the whole horrid end.

I can respect somebody who admits their mistakes and even if reconciliation is not possible, at least honestly admits them and has some remorse. Do not in the least have any compassion for somebody who continues to harm, hurt, and berate somebody else just because they have some perceived notion that they are simply entitled to do so. In reading alot these days on the boards (helps me recover some more btw), I note that many of the WS' do this kinda crud to their bs simply "because they can"...rather Clintonesque of them in my mind.

Does anybody like that deserve respect? Absolutely not.

And in case you wonder, I do not have any hard feelings with regards to xh's oc/c born shortly after my divorce was final. I love kids period. They are such blessings. And I hope and pray this idiot of a man doesn't treat this child as he treated his son when young...once my son was in hospital due to a very bad virus which flew out of control less than a day after a pediatrician visit. My bro in law, a surgeon, and some of my med buddies made sure that after I phoned them (son had very very high temp and was in and out)that they had staff waiting immediately (peds staff) in the er and we would not have any wait at all. Funny thing was my xh was gone on a trip supposedly to see his ailing grandmother in LA (state not city) who had a cardiac cath....and he decided she was just fine and so x decided he should just up and go to New Orleans for the heck of it...or rather because "he could". Meanwhile back home, his w (me) was phoning him tryint to get in touch to say that his son was in the hospital. No answer for three days. That made me lose major respect for him initially...and that happened during days of affair one.

What would I have done differently? I would not have done plan A as long as I did. Some WS are chronic takers...they will take as long as they can...only thing my xh understands to this day is if something harms him or makes him feel pain...if something is taken away or somebody he perceives abandons him. I spent all this time trying to meet his EN's. Should have saved myself the worry, sanity, and pain and gone from a quick plan A to a dark B. Imho, I think that's needed in alot of the cases here. Much quicker to B and to let the WS see what life's gonna be like.

The WS here inflict some major pain here. And now, yes, it makes me very mad to see it. Why? I hurt for these people here and love and pray for them. They're walking in our shoes now. And I am angry. Why? Because I know that a percentage of these very wayward individuals will not ever wake up and abandon the fog, alien ship, etc. And the whole reason they will not is because they CHOOSE TO NOT DO THE RIGHT THING. It is about choice. It is about their choice.

No Op out there is holding a gun to the WS heads and making them stay with them. Maybe in a few cases there's emotional blackmail or something though...but the WS is making their beds. They are choosing negatively. Honestly, I thnk a too long plan A that's not followed by a very harsh plan B gives almost enablement of the WS actions. And I know I will probably step on somebody's toes here, but this is just my perceptions and I am here in support of the BS here and for supporting the WS who decide to take control of their negative sitch's here.

Personally, I know without a doubt that even though I am over most of the crap that went on in the final "life support" days of my M, that I could never consider a reconciliation. He has done far too much. And while I can tolerate him for a few minutes, say at a parent function or a soccer game, I can't stand to be around him. He kinda repulses me now. He became so self absorbed that I can't even look at him alot of the time when I am around him.

One example...Last week at a soccer game practice, he accidentally blurted out after son and I were getting into my car "I love you guys"...and later this week he called to talk about soccer again. (I don't like even hearing his voice now) He said something very close to this "I am so glad you chose to step back (wtf? I did not) and let me join on as asst. coach of the team. And one day, despite however it may make me feel (wtf again?), I will be supportive of your being a mom again to another child. And you don't need to just date guys who do not have kids...you'll be missing out...as hard as it is for me to say these things (wtf?). It is the very very egocentric talk like that that makes my blood boil. Like I care what he thinks of who I date. Like I need his permission to procreate in the future or something. It's all ego. It's all about him. And he's not somebody who deserves any respect.

You get what you give in life. That equation is supposed to be directly proportional. But some people out there...ie, ws like many here..don't see the equation as a balance. It's more tilted to the "you get" part.

Respect and integrity is earned. It's something as a person we aspire to have in our lives. And how somebody can say they respect an addict is beyond me. Now if the addict can break the chains of addiction yes...

BUT IF THE ADDICT IS STILL USIN' THEN THEY REALLY NEED RESPECT? That's the arguement. Too many WS here are still usin' imho. And giving them too much respect and admiration is feeding the addiction even more and hindering the WS from trying to even get to a small point of recovery.

I think in most cases, especially the tougher ones, a brief yet stellar plan A followed by a tough plan B...very tough with absolutely NC is needed.

And I can say for me, when I went to NC, I pretty much stayed there. To this day, I don't have much contact with the x. I like life much more without somebody toxic like him in it much. I will never exclude him as a parent b/c I love my son, but he will never gain respect or admiration from me or from my friends and family. We know too much...we know his truth.

To answer your original question Lemonman, I am in agreement with you.

Sometimes I wonder if I did all I could do in that despite my outside efforts to facilitate in trying to bring my xws home, I secretly harbored feelings of resentment to him.

In the end, I can say that yes, I do NOT respect my xh in anything he did. He began as an unfaithful husband, and then tripped off into the sunset leaving his brain and morality behind him.

And yes...we are on a similar timeline with regards to the divorces...I think I hit the "anger" phase last year about late summer. It is still there, but I keep it very well in check and under my hat. How to do that? I run, read, be a committed mom to my little boy, and yes...work. And like you, am in med field and also enjoy the distraction of working as when it's all quiet is when I have the flashbacks to the whole horrid end.

I can respect somebody who admits their mistakes and even if reconciliation is not possible, at least honestly admits them and has some remorse. Do not in the least have any compassion for somebody who continues to harm, hurt, and berate somebody else just because they have some perceived notion that they are simply entitled to do so. In reading alot these days on the boards (helps me recover some more btw), I note that many of the WS' do this kinda crud to their bs simply "because they can"...rather Clintonesque of them in my mind.

Does anybody like that deserve respect? Absolutely not.

And in case you wonder, I do not have any hard feelings with regards to xh's oc/c born shortly after my divorce was final. I love kids period. They are such blessings. And I hope and pray this idiot of a man doesn't treat this child as he treated his son when young...once my son was in hospital due to a very bad virus which flew out of control less than a day after a pediatrician visit. My bro in law, a surgeon, and some of my med buddies made sure that after I phoned them (son had very very high temp and was in and out)that they had staff waiting immediately (peds staff) in the er and we would not have any wait at all. Funny thing was my xh was gone on a trip supposedly to see his ailing grandmother in LA (state not city) who had a cardiac cath....and he decided she was just fine and so x decided he should just up and go to New Orleans for the heck of it...or rather because "he could". Meanwhile back home, his w (me) was phoning him tryint to get in touch to say that his son was in the hospital. No answer for three days. That made me lose major respect for him initially...and that happened during days of affair one.

What would I have done differently? I would not have done plan A as long as I did. Some WS are chronic takers...they will take as long as they can...only thing my xh understands to this day is if something harms him or makes him feel pain...if something is taken away or somebody he perceives abandons him. I spent all this time trying to meet his EN's. Should have saved myself the worry, sanity, and pain and gone from a quick plan A to a dark B. Imho, I think that's needed in alot of the cases here. Much quicker to B and to let the WS see what life's gonna be like.

The WS here inflict some major pain here. And now, yes, it makes me very mad to see it. Why? I hurt for these people here and love and pray for them. They're walking in our shoes now. And I am angry. Why? Because I know that a percentage of these very wayward individuals will not ever wake up and abandon the fog, alien ship, etc. And the whole reason they will not is because they CHOOSE TO NOT DO THE RIGHT THING. It is about choice. It is about their choice.

No Op out there is holding a gun to the WS heads and making them stay with them. Maybe in a few cases there's emotional blackmail or something though...but the WS is making their beds. They are choosing negatively. Honestly, I thnk a too long plan A that's not followed by a very harsh plan B gives almost enablement of the WS actions. And I know I will probably step on somebody's toes here, but this is just my perceptions and I am here in support of the BS here and for supporting the WS who decide to take control of their negative sitch's here.

Personally, I know without a doubt that even though I am over most of the crap that went on in the final "life support" days of my M, that I could never consider a reconciliation. He has done far too much. And while I can tolerate him for a few minutes, say at a parent function or a soccer game, I can't stand to be around him. He kinda repulses me now. He became so self absorbed that I can't even look at him alot of the time when I am around him.

One example...Last week at a soccer game practice, he accidentally blurted out after son and I were getting into my car "I love you guys"...and later this week he called to talk about soccer again. (I don't like even hearing his voice now) He said something very close to this "I am so glad you chose to step back (wtf? I did not) and let me join on as asst. coach of the team. And one day, despite however it may make me feel (wtf again?), I will be supportive of your being a mom again to another child. And you don't need to just date guys who do not have kids...you'll be missing out...as hard as it is for me to say these things (wtf?). It is the very very egocentric talk like that that makes my blood boil. Like I care what he thinks of who I date. Like I need his permission to procreate in the future or something. It's all ego. It's all about him. And he's not somebody who deserves any respect.

You get what you give in life. That equation is supposed to be directly proportional. But some people out there...ie, ws like many here..don't see the equation as a balance. It's more tilted to the "you get" part.

Respect and integrity is earned. It's something as a person we aspire to have in our lives. And how somebody can say they respect an addict is beyond me. Now if the addict can break the chains of addiction yes...

BUT IF THE ADDICT IS STILL USIN' THEN THEY REALLY NEED RESPECT? That's the arguement. Too many WS here are still usin' imho. And giving them too much respect and admiration is feeding the addiction even more and hindering the WS from trying to even get to a small point of recovery.

I think in most cases, especially the tougher ones, a brief yet stellar plan A followed by a tough plan B...very tough with absolutely NC is needed.

And I can say for me, when I went to NC, I pretty much stayed there. To this day, I don't have much contact with the x. I like life much more without somebody toxic like him in it much. I will never exclude him as a parent b/c I love my son, but he will never gain respect or admiration from me or from my friends and family. We know too much...we know his truth.

To answer your original question Lemonman, I am in agreement with you.

Sometimes I wonder if I did all I could do in that despite my outside efforts to facilitate in trying to bring my xws home, I secretly harbored feelings of resentment to him.

In the end, I can say that yes, I do NOT respect my xh in anything he did. He began as an unfaithful husband, and then tripped off into the sunset leaving his brain and morality behind him.

And yes...we are on a similar timeline with regards to the divorces...I think I hit the "anger" phase last year about late summer. It is still there, but I keep it very well in check and under my hat. How to do that? I run, read, be a committed mom to my little boy, and yes...work. And like you, am in med field and also enjoy the distraction of working as when it's all quiet is when I have the flashbacks to the whole horrid end.

I can respect somebody who admits their mistakes and even if reconciliation is not possible, at least honestly admits them and has some remorse. Do not in the least have any compassion for somebody who continues to harm, hurt, and berate somebody else just because they have some perceived notion that they are simply entitled to do so. In reading alot these days on the boards (helps me recover some more btw), I note that many of the WS' do this kinda crud to their bs simply "because they can"...rather Clintonesque of them in my mind.

Does anybody like that deserve respect? Absolutely not.

And in case you wonder, I do not have any hard feelings with regards to xh's oc/c born shortly after my divorce was final. I love kids period. They are such blessings. And I hope and pray this idiot of a man doesn't treat this child as he treated his son when young...once my son was in hospital due to a very bad virus which flew out of control less than a day after a pediatrician visit. My bro in law, a surgeon, and some of my med buddies made sure that after I phoned them (son had very very high temp and was in and out)that they had staff waiting immediately (peds staff) in the er and we would not have any wait at all. Funny thing was my xh was gone on a trip supposedly to see his ailing grandmother in LA (state not city) who had a cardiac cath....and he decided she was just fine and so x decided he should just up and go to New Orleans for the heck of it...or rather because "he could". Meanwhile back home, his w (me) was phoning him tryint to get in touch to say that his son was in the hospital. No answer for three days. That made me lose major respect for him initially...and that happened during days of affair one.

What would I have done differently? I would not have done plan A as long as I did. Some WS are chronic takers...they will take as long as they can...only thing my xh understands to this day is if something harms him or makes him feel pain...if something is taken away or somebody he perceives abandons him. I spent all this time trying to meet his EN's. Should have saved myself the worry, sanity, and pain and gone from a quick plan A to a dark B. Imho, I think that's needed in alot of the cases here. Much quicker to B and to let the WS see what life's gonna be like.

The WS here inflict some major pain here. And now, yes, it makes me very mad to see it. Why? I hurt for these people here and love and pray for them. They're walking in our shoes now. And I am angry. Why? Because I know that a percentage of these very wayward individuals will not ever wake up and abandon the fog, alien ship, etc. And the whole reason they will not is because they CHOOSE TO NOT DO THE RIGHT THING. It is about choice. It is about their choice.

No Op out there is holding a gun to the WS heads and making them stay with them. Maybe in a few cases there's emotional blackmail or something though...but the WS is making their beds. They are choosing negatively. Honestly, I thnk a too long plan A that's not followed by a very harsh plan B gives almost enablement of the WS actions. And I know I will probably step on somebody's toes here, but this is just my perceptions and I am here in support of the BS here and for supporting the WS who decide to take control of their negative sitch's here.

Personally, I know without a doubt that even though I am over most of the crap that went on in the final "life support" days of my M, that I could never consider a reconciliation. He has done far too much. And while I can tolerate him for a few minutes, say at a parent function or a soccer game, I can't stand to be around him. He kinda repulses me now. He became so self absorbed that I can't even look at him alot of the time when I am around him.

One example...Last week at a soccer game practice, he accidentally blurted out after son and I were getting into my car "I love you guys"...and later this week he called to talk about soccer again. (I don't like even hearing his voice now) He said something very close to this "I am so glad you chose to step back (wtf? I did not) and let me join on as asst. coach of the team. And one day, despite however it may make me feel (wtf again?), I will be supportive of your being a mom again to another child. And you don't need to just date guys who do not have kids...you'll be missing out...as hard as it is for me to say these things (wtf?). It is the very very egocentric talk like that that makes my blood boil. Like I care what he thinks of who I date. Like I need his permission to procreate in the future or something. It's all ego. It's all about him. And he's not somebody who deserves any respect.

You get what you give in life. That equation is supposed to be directly proportional. But some people out there...ie, ws like many here..don't see the equation as a balance. It's more tilted to the "you get" part.

Respect and integrity is earned. It's something as a person we aspire to have in our lives. And how somebody can say they respect an addict is beyond me. Now if the addict can break the chains of addiction yes...

BUT IF THE ADDICT IS STILL USIN' THEN THEY REALLY NEED RESPECT? That's the arguement. Too many WS here are still usin' imho. And giving them too much respect and admiration is feeding the addiction even more and hindering the WS from trying to even get to a small point of recovery.

I think in most cases, especially the tougher ones, a brief yet stellar plan A followed by a tough plan B...very tough with absolutely NC is needed.

And I can say for me, when I went to NC, I pretty much stayed there. To this day, I don't have much contact with the x. I like life much more without somebody toxic like him in it much. I will never exclude him as a parent b/c I love my son, but he will never gain respect or admiration from me or from my friends and family. We know too much...we know his truth.

LM,
Let’s see, how to forgive and go on with a cheating wife (cheating being a verb)? Impossible for me to do!

Forgiving and going forward with the woman I love, who swears that she loves me and swears that she will never do “it” again? Easy! You just do it. You don’t talk about it, wonder about it or worry about it, you just do it.

Why do so many BSs squander so much emotional collateral on the OM or OW? Beats me. Don’t get me wrong. I feel no fondness for the OM who was enjoying the “society” LOL that my wife was providing but it was her choice to be his provider. He didn’t put a gun to her head and make her do anything she didn’t want to do. And in that my wife is one hell of good (make that great) provider of “society,” he would have had to be made of stone to turn her down.

Now as to those men and woman who go around indescriminently making and having babies, it’s with them that I have real problems. We can debate the correct course of action and prescribed method by which this kind of problem needs to be handled ad infinitem but in the end, all we’re ever going to be doing is making the best of a bad situations.

From a strictly pragmatic point of view, abortion is a solution as is adoption. But when a woman chooses to have that baby regardless of the circumstances and to keep that child regardless of the circumstances, then this decision is a statement as to her “relationship” intent. Talk about compounding bad actions with bad decisions.

The first bad decision is to have the affair. The next, is to have unprotected sex. The next is bringing an unwanted child into the world. The next is giving no thought to the ultimate welfare of the unwanted yet, innocent child. The next bad decision is in trying finding an equitable solution to all involved because at this point, there is no equitable solution. Only a correct solution. And that is to do what’s in the best interest of the innocent child and everyone else connected to the problem be damned.

In short, I don’t think there is a correct course of action to take at this point. Finding what’s now best to do is like trying to make ice cream out of $hit! It can be done I suppose but it’s never “gonna” taste real good! And so what we end up with is what in real life we call a tragedy. Contact, no contact, reconciliation, divorce, marriage between the WH & OW or vice versa…it’s all ugly, its all senseless and none of it promises any meaningful solution to any problem. So pick your poison because in the end no matter what’s done, the result will probably be the same. Unhappy people in unhappy lives programming the future generation that they senselessly procreated, for a life equally unhappy.

So any BS who chooses to stay in a relationship with a partner in this kind of circumstance? You know what you’re in for so don’t lie to yourself about it. This will almost always end up being be a case where life goes from bad to worse.

Coach