Am I being fair to allow my wife to continue seeing a girl friend that had helped cover up afairs? Its bin a long while since my wife and or i had posted here. We had argued about this a few months ago and i thought we understood each other but she got sneeky and started spending time with this girl behind my back. momof3bychoice sees nothing wrong with this and stands her ground just as it was last year. She convinced me the same way to allow a so called "just friends" with a man from the gym. Im not a controll freak and i trusted her 100 and 10 %. That I feel was part of the problem. Out side of last night i never go out to the bar. I was out from 6 to 11 5 hrs. and she is maaadd. It doesnt seem to be fair. I think she needs to find new friends. thanks for reading

dadof3

Your wife's friend was an enabler. In my opinion, that person was exhibiting behavior that is characterized by moral cowardice at the very least. What I have seen in my sitch, is that my WW's cheerleaders are of low moral standards. These people are the only people she is currently close to. So, I am beginning to think that she is a bird of the same feather.
You would be wise to ask your wife to keep company with people that exhibit high moral standards. I think it would be crucial to rebuilding your marriage. If I get the chance to rebuild my marriage, choice of friends will be one of the first issues addressed.

I don't believe your wife should have friends that are not supportive of your marriage and fidelity.
Friends like that aren't real friends but fiends.

You and your wife should care more about protecting eachother and your marriage. Read the rule of protection elsewhere on this site.

Dad, please tell mom I said Hello.

I believe a POJA has been broken here, from what you are saying. If somebody is sneaking, than it is obviously because it is wrong.

This friend of hers betrayed you, I know my H would not want me to be with a friend like this. POJA

I hope she respects your request.

KY

thanks. I hope she will see things the right way. this is a big set back for us. We are expecting number 4 in 6 weeks. My biggest fear is after baby comes. will she contnue this kind of life? Abby my youngest was about 7 months when mom had her 1st afair. She doesnt under stand my concerns.

dadof3

To day is good. We made up last night and did nothing but cuddle. I hope she completly understands why i feel the way i do about momof3 girl friend. I feel that she needs new friends and to keep this friendship distant. I mean our kids do go to the same schools and we live in a small town. I wont be upset over a short high in the hall. haha .

momof3 says hi ky. shes back at school today still work hard on RN degree and doing great.

dadof3

WOW...how strange. I too have been upset over Dadof3 and I's disagreement over my friendship, and tonight I have come here for the first time since September(ish)....and I see this.

Dadof3 has already posted up about our most recent issue.

So here I am. Can I participate in this thread or need I start my own? I will jump in:

CrushedNTexas: Your wife's friend was an enabler...my WW's cheerleaders are of low moral standards...I am beginning to think that she is a bird of the same feather.

*I* do not see her as an enabler...I feel that I would have acted with little difference if she were not in my life. She watched the children while I "ran around" yes, but if she didn't then I would have found someone else...

But that is what *I* see from where I sit...and Dadof3, as well as you and others see it different. And I am trying to be open and respectful of that.

I also do not see her as a woman with low moral character...she encouraged reconciliation with dh...more than even my family or his. Also, she HAS made mistakes similar to mine...and like me, see our renewed marriage through much different glasses.

Trix: I don't believe your wife should have friends that are not supportive of your marriage and fidelity.

YES!!!!! And this friend supports our marriage and "fidelity" more than Dadof3 knows. But he is still feeling the past hurts of her lies to cover my affairs. I get that.

I agree Trix...the Rule of Protection is so important, and I really don't want to let a friendship sneak past that rule.

kyellow4: I believe a POJA has been broken here, from what you are saying. If somebody is sneaking, than it is obviously because it is wrong.

I miss you ky! Hello...I can't believe you remember me...us.

UNTIL I read this, what I copied above, I really did not think I had broken any major rules. I had dinner with the friend at her house one night and she had dinner at our house another night. We are both pregannt. She has a complicated pregnancy, twins, and has undergone a fetal surgery in Feb. So our friendship feels good...one pregnant woman with another. And her and I have been through much together. She really did help me in my darkest hour when I was wanting to reconcile with Dadof3...but scared, unsure...she really was the biggest "cheerleader" for our reconciliation.

BUT yes, she lied to Dadof3.

God, you are right. I broke the POJA. And why was I sneaking? Because I KNEW Dadof3 would be hurt. I knew it was a break in POJA. And Dadof3 has broken POJA (going to bar) and I knew how hurt I was.

But I didn't see it like that two days ago. I thought Dadof3 needed to trust me with her...etc. I am sorry Dad. I was wrong.

Dadof3bychoice: Honey, I apologize for the break in POJA. I hear your fears about me returning to the "other life" after this baby is born. In my heart I feel so secure and confident that I won't. But I don't know how to help you feel that way.

I do know that breaking POJA will not help. Is it possible to review our "Joint Agreement" of my friendship with her? It feels good to have what little (and really I mean LITTLE) contact with her. But it is not worth sacrificing the Rule of Protection.

Tonight, I see more clearly how damaging this is. I do NOT want to engage in "sneeky" behavior. I do not want to decieve or lie to you. Today, I see how I behaved in the past, and while I am the same woman, I *believe* I am a stronger woman. Stronger and Braver and Healthier.

I will not allow myself to revert back to my Old Coping.

^^Bumping this up^^

I really hope Dadof3 reads this...

Hi M & D,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by dad: but she got sneeky and started spending time with this girl behind my back </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God, you are right. I broke the POJA. And why was I sneaking? Because I KNEW Dadof3 would be hurt. I knew it was a break in POJA. And Dadof3 has broken POJA (going to bar) and I knew how hurt I was.

But I didn't see it like that two days ago. I thought Dadof3 needed to trust me with her...etc. I am sorry Dad. I was wrong.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This exchange gave me chills. It's HUGE that a BS starts rebuilding trust for the WS after and A. I remember when H lied to me, some months after dday, about something stupidly minor (said he took the garbage, but hadnt).

It felt like a bit of dday, all over again. Like NOTHING we had talked about had sunk in. Like we were back at square one.

See, our agreement was he'd tell me the truth EVEN IF it was wrong, EVEN IF he thought I'd be mad or hurt, EVEN IF... I really thought we had covered ALL the EVEN IF's. But he came up with one anyway.

It struck a note of terrror in my heart that he STILL didnt get it. Terror.

We survived that one... I bet you guys do, too. But let this reinforce that EVERYONE adhears to POJA and RH. You goofed, he goofed; this is a good point at which to grieve, heal, and start again.

Mom, did you tell H how hurt you were by his actions (the bar)? Or did you hold your tongue and think he would too, on this one? Did you two 'settle' that, or were you still upset and resentful about the bar when you visited the freind?

I wish you both well!! - Dru

I read it momof and dadof...

and was very very pleased with both of you...
and how you worked/are working this out...

ARK

"*I* do not see her as an enabler...I feel that I would have acted with little difference if she were not in my life. She watched the children while I "ran around" yes, but if she didn't then I would have found someone else...

But that is what *I* see from where I sit...and Dadof3, as well as you and others see it different. And I am trying to be open and respectful of that."

Your inability to recognize her enabling as such is part of the problem. IMHO this is a realization you should have come to before your husband agreed to reconcile with you. In my case it will be a deal-breaker: Either WH realizes how others enabled his affair, how HE was blind to that threat to our marriage, disguised as friendship and 'support' for whatever he chose to do. Of course since relatives are also often enablers, IMHO the enablers should always be given the option of redeemign themselves. IF the enabler can admit what they did was wrong and harmful to you, IF they can relaize they weren't really being a good friend to you by 'supporting' instead of confronting you, THEN there should be no problem with continued contact with them.

"I also do not see her as a woman with low moral character...she encouraged reconciliation with dh...more than even my family or his. Also, she HAS made mistakes similar to mine...and like me, see our renewed marriage through much different glasses.

YES!!!!! And this friend supports our marriage and "fidelity" more than Dadof3 knows."

At best her morals and support of your marriage are rather fluid shall we say? Basically, because of her immature view of friendship, she will 'support' anything you choose to do, right?
If you want to betray your husband, she will help you do that; if you want to return to your husband/marriage, she will be all for that... Your husband would be very unwise to not recognize that she is indeed an enabler - of whatever choice, good or bad, you make.

"But he is still feeling the past hurts of her lies to cover my affairs. I get that."

He is not merely feeling the past hurts of her lies and enabling. He recognizes that as long as she will support whatever you choose she will continue to be a threat to the stability of your marriage. He knows she can't be counted on to confront you, as a true friend should, if/when you make wrong choices.

Unless she has acknowledged that she was wrong to help you commit adultery, that she was wrong to 'support' you in betraying your husband, then she is not to be trusted now. If the oNLY reasons she isn't still helping you commit adultery is because you decided to stop the adultery and reconcile with your husband, then she should not be given much credit for supporting reconciliation. She sounds like a yes-man who will endorse whatever. You don't need a 'cheerleader' to rah-rah at WHATEVER path you take.

From the rest of your post I sens that you do get that you need to honor POJA on this, and that your husband needs to also (with going to the bar). I guess you two agree to some things that you didn't really come to an enthusiastic agreement about? If he begrudgingly agreed to not go to the bar, and you begrudgingly agreed to not have contact with that friend... then you both broke agreements because neither of you really understood that these new rules were really needed to protect your marriage. Until he understands and agrees that going to the bar is a threat to the marriage, until you understand and agree that friend IS (not just WAS) a threat to the marriage, there will not be ENTHUSIASTIC agreement.

The solution is not for you to accept his going to the bar, to be assured it's not a threat to your marriage. And the solution is not for him to accept your contact with your friend, to be assured that she's not a threat to your marriage.
The solution is for each of you to do all you can to protect your marriage by avoiding proven theats.

Also, IMHO when a certain activity or friendship has been ruined becasue it has been allowed to threaten the marriage, to come between the spouses, having to give up that activity or friendship is the fault of the spouse who allowed that to theaten the marriage. Too often the spouse who sees the need for caution is blamed for depriving the other spouse of the activity or friend, presumably because the cautious spouse mistrusts something innocent. The truth is the spouse who objects to losing the tainted activity or friend did the tainting and is expecting too much from the worried spouse. It is the betrayal itself, and the betrayers, who cause the deprivation. I say anythign or anybody that you value enough to not want to lose, you should value enough to not allow it/them to become a threat to your marriage, and THEREFORE have to give up in order to save your marriage.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

At best her morals and support of your marriage are rather fluid shall we say? Basically, because of her immature view of friendship, she will 'support' anything you choose to do, right?

I am really thinking about this friendship now. I thank you. I do see her much much differently even today, than I did yesterday.

I too, see her as a threat. NOW. Today. She is still a threat. Not because she is supporting my marriage, but because I don't know *why* she is. And I really see that now. And that Dadof3 has to be thinking this too...what if Momof3 changes her mind, gets bored, will N help her see other men again?

And I don't know. But I do know...that that is a real fear that Dadof3 has.

I think our POJA, needs to be written out in a contract for with some very very specific rules/guidlines.

For examply, "going to a bar" he knows is against our POJA, but I feel that having even ONE drink after work, at the bar of the restaurant that he works at is the SAME THING. He does not. He sees it as "I did not go to a bar...it was work...it was one beer...I came straight home."

I feel unsafe with alcohol. He feels unsafe with N being my "friend." So I would say it is similar to me saying: "Well, it was just one phone call...we haven't talked in months...we just went to lunch..."

Am I getting it right still?

So I think we need to really "define" our boundaries better.

I think we were recovering very well...but got a little "lazy," a little too confident, a little to comfortable.

The solution is not for you to accept his going to the bar, to be assured it's not a threat to your marriage. And the solution is not for him to accept your contact with your friend, to be assured that she's not a threat to your marriage.
The solution is for each of you to do all you can to protect your marriage by avoiding proven theats.

I cross posted while you were editing...

YES. I love what you wrote. That is what I am "getting" now.

meremortal thank you for your imput you sure hit the nail on the head. i think momof3 see's the picture now. sometime i feel momof3 doesnt here me until it comes from an outsider point of view.

momof3 about the bar thing.im a little confused about something. i remember both of us quit drinking. i know i didnt touch it for over 1yr 8 months. i felt it was a great idea and we both lost some wieght and felt fit. i also felt it was something we both did for each other and to build and bond are marrage and family. but i was wrong and very folish i guess. this was the time you started this madness A 1 2 3 . now why would this be a threat? unless you didnt quit and you hid that as well. if that is the case then may be its more about your own weekness. having a drink turns all the no s into maybe and yes's. knowing that you are feerful of me going down the same road? hunny you know that i do not spend any time in the bar. i dont have really any friends except work related. i have no bar social life and thats fine because i would much rather spend that time out with you. some times you need to through a guy a bone.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: dadof3bychoice ]</small>