Forged,

I'm in the process of reaing your sitch but I had to stop and say that this is a great line--------->

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I revealed her secrecy, not invaded her privacy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one needs to be up in lights as the natural response to all WSs who ***** about their lost privacy!!!

Mac

Thanks for the credit Mac, but I'm sure I read it somewhere.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I revealed her secrecy, not invaded her privacy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is a good line. It garnered a nice reaction as well, a slightly defiant guilty look, followed by silence...

Up in lights!!!

Legato, she has not read any MB books. She is gone for a minimum of 12 hours everyday, so she hasn't been reading much. She talks on the phone 3-4 Hrs a day. Often to OM 2+hrs /day.

YADDA YADDA blah blah

<small>[ March 18, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: FORGED ]</small>

Hiker, I missed your post until now, and I am sure you have better things to do on the weekend... As far as W's reasons for wanting out of M:
Lack of SF
lack of income== I stuck with biz longer than I should have, partially because she was soooo much in support of it, being an artist herself. The biz was why we couldnt find an existing house, looked for three years, and finally built a new house and shop two years ago. Blacksmiths make a lot of racket, especially with my 150# air hammer, so near neighbors were out. Her dad helped w/ downpayment & construction support as a builder. We (I ) did all of the utilities, HW floor heat, electric, plumbing, finish floors, paint, etc. 1/1/2004 W said she couldn't take another year like 2003. I assumed that meant a year without profit, so I gave up art biz in June, and ended up making more than her by selling on EBAY. She drifted in a big way after I gave up biz. I made it clear that my reason to give up current biz format of selling our work wholesale to galleries was to make a decent living so that we could start a family. She started seeing it all as wasted, despite my reassurance that it was a mode change, not abandoning my craft, nor our dreams.

We are surviving on a paltry annual income, and our taxes at the new house are as high as our old rent, so finances are a big part of the puzzle.

She is a neatnik, and I am not. I have long since taken care of this problem, by doing all of the housework except for her laundry, but she brings it up regularly, nonetheless.

She never expected to be childless at 37. In fact, she was voted most likely to have three kids by 30 in her high school. We didn't marry until she was 28, so that was clearly out of the question. She wanted to wait until we were finacially secure to have kids, not to mention the fact that our old house was just down the block from a super fund site.

W has always been a saver, I have not. She had savings when we met, now that we built, we are pretty much broke. I have stepped up since last fall, and have managed to pay down our debt considerably, put some in savings, and pay all of the bills. She hasn't put any money into our accounts since early Feb. Maybe three deposits this year. Partly due to billing issues (she gets paid when job is done, half is often done a month ahead of final. Partly due to a month of no computer to bill with, but all excuses, dad would pay her if she called the bill in...

I don't care about the money, but she thinks i have taken advantage of her. I worked my A** off trying to make a go as a blacksmith in a one man shop selling to 100 galleries, but profits were small, and the tools were needed, so I reinvested profits, showing a loss for several years in a row. She dismisses my contributions, across the board. The work I did on the house could have been hired and finished in three months, compared to my year to complete the project.


So, a pile of puzzle pieces, all linked together will show a tidy picture of me in my current sitch.


Still no W, 11:00 at night, another LONG day. It is hard to meet her needs when she is gone so long.
Om is never home when I drive by his new place, at leat that means it isn't their love nest.

OM's W called today, said she recd cell bill copy from OCT. She said there were pages of calls from OM to W, whereas W to OM is not that muchon our bill. W calls to OM increased in recent months. It appears he initiated the illicit conversations, and she latched on. I will know better when I get the stats.

The ball of exposure is in motion, and will roll downhill quickly. I am fully aware that I stand at the bottom of that hill, and anticipate some serious rage. I found WAT's suggestions for facing this onslaught elsewhere.

BIL has spoken to SIL, minimom. The rest of the cycle should be completed soon. I also emailed another BIL, and gave full details. I suspect W will see this as a desperate act. I do not see it as an act of desperation, but rather an act of rectification.

BIL #1 voiced further concerns about the rage to come, and said that they were treading lightly along the path of exposure. I told him to just do it, ASAP. BIL #2 had already known about my concerns, and had kept confidence while I sought evidence. I let him know in the email that I wish for full disclosure to all family. I am sure that none of the SIBs will tell MIL or FIL, nor will I at this point. (FIL scares me, and I haven't been the best provider.)

Itsa gonna get ugly.

Hang in there, Forged.

Edited to add a question.

Why does everyone in the family fear her rage?

Gimble

<small>[ March 19, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

I'm hanging! I steeled myself for the challenge ahead, but I believe that it won't be tonight. W just called, and said she was on her way home from visiting granny. She clearly had not heard from sis about exposure.

I will rephrase my earlier statement. Her family doesn't fear her rage, and I don't think I have ever seen her rage. BIL expressed concern for my ability to handle the possible and probable ramifications for exposure. W is not really a rager, but more of a conflict avoider, as you properly pegged her to be. BIL knows from friends experience what could happen as this all plays out.

I'm ready. I understand why she is angry... water on a ducks back....
I better go grease my feathers....

forged

as a FWW perhaps I can give some insight here. I have picked up on 2 things which I think are very important to your W, having kids & the money to support a family.
She is 37 - join the club mrs F - the bio clock is clicking & even though its quite possible to have kids 40 plus these days, so do the risks increase for pregnancies after this age.
I suspect she will say she did try to communicate with you then gave up...... remember her idea of past comnication maybe a 'look' etc or hesitant 'buts' with nothing more hoping you would ask more. Obviously in the past. Was it clearer than this? Well you can ans that one.
I know now of course that our partners cant read minds most of the time but perhaps in her mind she sees it differently. very common misconception in this mess.

DONT UNDER ESTIMATE the power of the need to have a family, its very elemental. I suggest not to make any plans on this only address in the terms of EN's if they come up. Got to win the M back first. May also need some professional advice on this in MC or IC.

I do think there is more between the OM and your W, what exactly that is I can't say but the number of calls, absence from home indicate more than a casual contact going on.

Remember that you are NOT dealing with the woman you M, but a woman in the fog of an affair, EA or PA doesn't matter, it is taking p her thoughts & time.

Gimble is giving great advice as have others here, exposure is right though expect fireworks and denoucements of betrayal, that its all over, we can never reconcile etc etc. That response is normal.

There seem to be glimmers of sanity every now & then so maybe she will pull back from the edge of the cliff, but dont expect too much right now.

You are doing great hope it can work out.

All the best.

aussieswife,

I am certain that the need for family tops the list of problems in M. I mentioned the other probs as they directly related to why we don't have family. W wanted to wait for financial security, I wanted a family earlier, but she dragged her feet for above reason. When it became clear that I would not be dramatically increasing income in current biz sitch, I switched gears. W says she tried to explain her needs, but they were not clear, and she has recently become more vocal about past issues that she sat on. While I know that she tried ot explain her feelings to me in vague terms, I could not see or understand the depth of her wishes.

She recently admitted to being depressed re our sitch in 2001, before we found land to build on. She believed that the new house and shop would answer all of her problems, but it made things worse. She said she saw her siblings starting their families, and wondered "when it would be my turn, but it was never my turn" I tried to tell her that children were not that costly in the initial years, but she seemed like she wanted the college paid for prior to birth.

I am sure that there are more issues in her mind yet to be disclosed. I requested this morning for her to fill out EN questionaire. She said she would take a look at it, but didn't yet.

you can only encourage her to fill it out. XDont try to push to hard.

Its ok to let her know you WANT to meet her EN"S THOUGH expect her resistance to this somewhat. You see to accept them right off would mean she was wrong and thats hard to admit.

keep going forged you are doing well and have great advice from gimble and others . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think W has heard about exposure yet, so I emailed her sis in NJ. I asked her to talk to her other Sib re: the sitch.

As W was preparing for bed she initiated an R talk:
W: Did you not hear what I said on Friday?
C: I heard everything you said. What specifically are you referring to?
W: I saw a lawyer.
C: Yes, and you told me you haven't decided anything.
W: We talked about divorce.
C: I have no intention of divorcing you.
W: What does that mean?
C: It means that I will fight for our M. I am 100% commited to M.
W: I don't feel the same.
C: I realize that.
W: Don't you think I've tried to wrok on things?
C: Not since Oct. when you shut me out completely.
W: The unhappiness, the satisfaction, the whole list... I've tried.
C: But you were never honest with me until very recently, and your door has been shut since well before that time.
W: It was all about you, everything was about you.
C: To me everything was about us. You told me you wanted to build a house, you helped pick the land, we designed the house together. To me we were building our future. You may be willing to throw it away, but I am not going to jump off that cliff.
W: We went to MC.
C: Two measley sessions, and you were a closed book.
W: Silence
C: Did you schedule a joint session with (her IC)
W: I see him on Wed., I'll talk to him then.
C: Thank you. I think it is the least we can do.

We then said goodnight, as she went into her room.

I was positive and strong, and left her a bit flummoxed about what to do next. I know there is still time to save M, but I am thinking I should start a Plan B letter, just in case.

All I get from her now are monosyllabic answers, one arm hugs and smelly uncle kisses. She is clearly ready to go, and is not turning back. I am slightly hopeful that she will get some sense knocked into her head by Sibs.

Hi, Forged.

Careful with the tea leaves.

Right now, everything is your fault. If the sun goes super nova tomorrow, it will be your fault.

That doesn't mean that you didn't help get your marriage in the state it is in. You know you played a part in that, and the part you played. That still doesn't mean that anything is permanent yet. You are a long way away from permanently done.

The thing you have to do is maintain your Plan A, minimize the number of excuses for her to blame you for her condition (minimize love busters).

She is looking for a good excuse to blow at you and walk off. Don't give it to her.

On the kisses - back off. Kiss her on the cheek or forehead. If she doesn't want you to kiss her on the mouth, then don't.

She doesn't like you much right now. That is normal. You continue to grow into the role of 'Man of Steel'. Extricate the parts of you that you know need work. She will notice.

You marriage is a long way from done. Settle down and get hardened for the long haul.

All the best,
Gimble

On the kisses - back off. Kiss her on the cheek or forehead. If she doesn't want you to kiss her on the mouth, then don't.

Forged I wanted to reinforce what Gimble says.

In my own situation, Squid was made actually ANGRY by my post d-day efforts at physical and verbal affection.

So , like a any good BS, I used a mish-mash of available techniques for coping ! I used the Weiener-David 180 technique on it.

Absolutely stopped. " I Love You" became " I care for you, I want to be with you but I won;t shackle you" etc.

Physical touch became supportive but ABSOLuTELY non-sexual nor even romantic ( no held hands, arms round shoulders etc).

But I plan A'ed my buns off.

After a month or so of this, Squid tells em NOW that she was YEARNING for me to hold her and kiss her but didn;t feel worthy ofit so didn;t instigate.

Then, after two months or so, we were enjoying an evening in the pub with some friends near our holiday ahome when Squid and I bumped into each other coming from the bathroom.

She seduced me ! Threw her arms around me and kissed me like her life depended on it !

She has said since that it made her realise how much she had preiously just 'assumed' my love and affection.

This approach is also borne out in 'love must be tough'.

Not saying you should do this, just offering my example.

Remember that your heart is up for sale to her, not for auction. She can't get it back for only her best bid: she must pay your set price for it, else you devalue it.

You're doing great !

all blessings. I'm praying for you.

Thanks for the pointers and the book Rec. I will check it out today. SAA just arrived, so I will read that first. I am keeping my chin up, and expect to face the music today.

Forged

It seems to me that your W has wanted to start a family for a long time and now she feels it will never happen. Perhaps one or both of you wanted to wait until the finances got better but he clock keeps ticking. That seems to be aonother big frustration for her. Then there was the house. I do not know if you tried to live there while it was under construction but if so that was additional pressure(I'm sure you know).

Now you are trying a plan "A" but by her reaction she is not receptive indicating that the "too little too late" light is on. Having family trying to help will not work (at least it wouldn't for me). IMO the help should come from someone who isn't emmotionaly involved. I was a WS and during the A there wasn't much if anything anyone could have said that would have desuaded me conversely it would have angered me and driven me away. This your M and your life not their's. The decisions are for you and your W to make. Your best advocate is you. If she will not seek help then you get the help you need. You need it as much as she does.

It seems as though(to me) you are smothering her...That isn't what a plan A is.

H

Hiker, The TLTL light is on and flashing. She did want a family for a long time, but she was the one dragging her feet while encouraging me to continue the Biz. If she had said, Family NOW is more important than anything else, I would have happily been the only vegetarian burger flipper at BK if that is what it took to meet that need.

"IMO the help should come from someone who isn't emmotionaly involved." Any ideas? Her friends know. Her friends offered support, regardless of her choice, but she chose to confide only in OM. W adamantly denies wrong doing w/ OM. I can't even wish to change her mind myself.


"It seems as though(to me) you are smothering her...That isn't what a plan A is." Could you elaborate on this statement? I am trying to give her the space she said she needed. I am trying to meet her emotional needs, but I can only guess what her priorities are at this point. She took the EN questionaire with her yesterday, but I don't think she filled it out. She will probably show it to her IC on Wed. to see if HE thinks she should fill it out. I won't ask again, since I know she has it.

I am seeing an IC, and am working my way through this muddy mess. I don't care about the house or anything material at this point. All I can do is offer my willingness to work on M, be as strong as I can be, show her that my changes are real, and pray.

Your clarification on the above points may enable my understanding.
MC session is Thursday morning, provided she doesn't back out after talking to her family.

Is it a bad idea to contact OM? I don't want to beat him up or anything like that, but I want to hear how he describes the relationship with W. I want to see if they have rehearsed the answer to that question. I just read the contact OP thread, and now I am a bit confused. Gimble said not to go see him. How about phone contact? I am not a violent man, so fear not for alterior motives here.

Let me ask you this, forged.

What would you expect to get from the contact?

Do you think that he would actually tell you the truth?

Why would he act in any honorable way? This man has proven, that he has no honor.

edited to add: I think that you (anyone) provides a nasty sense of validation for the other person when they are contacted about an illicit relationship. There are exceptions, but they are limited, "My spouse has committed bigamy twice before, looks like you are going to be number three" or if the other person is unaware of the wayward spouse's marital status.

Gimble

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

Gimble, I knew you would be quick to reply. I honestly don't have a good answer as to what I expect to get from the interaction. I would like to hear the tone of his voice as he answers my questions. I would like to hear the explanation of why he feels entitled to that degree of "friendship". Beyond that, I don't know. As I type up listings, I have downtime as I upload, so I read here. As I read here, I try to understand the similarity of my sitch with these other sitches. Then I wonder if some of the ideas expressed here would be a good tact in my course of action. The thing is, I don't feel like I am making any progress whatsoever with M. I do feel like I am making progress with me. I know about the ripple effect, or the butterfly effect, or whatever, but it doesn't seem like I am doing enough. I feel like if I don't act soon it will be too late. But in the same thought, if it is already too late, then why not act?

Patience.

Rome was not built in a day, and your marriage won't be rebuilt in a week.

You are only in control of you. You are not in control of her. Doing something quick and thoughtless will cause you more problems than you can potentially address. Let the system work. Know your plan, work your plan.

It sounds like what you are wanting from the other man is understanding for yourself. Don't go there. You won't get what you need or want, and in addition, you will probably get your feelings hurt.

There is no reason to borrow trouble, you have enough already.

I hope others reading will jump in and give you their thoughts.

Gimble

Hi FORGED; I'm really sorry.

Let's not get too caught up in "but it isn't a PA" just now, 'kay? It could become one very easily. After my WW mustered the courage to tell me, "I want to get divorced", she was in bed with OM in the blink of an eye.

As you know, now is the time for your W to understand that you are sorry for anything you ever did to hurt her, that you are willing to hear her pain, and that you want to do better.

But you must also maintain balance between that contrite approach and the firm position that your W's rejection of you and her attachment to OM is a terrible offense against you, and is not one bit justified.

Don't feel you must pretend the A is okay or at all your fault. In fact, you need to make it clear, without being too harsh, without LBing, and without whining, that your wife's A hurts you profoundly and is completely inexcusable.

I read an interview once with a WW who wound up divorced, where she said that after d-day, her H tried very hard to show her he loved her and that he could change his bad habits. She tried to appreciate this, but wasn't "feeling it", so it didn't really mean much to her. And this woman said her H's lack of indignance made it easier for her to have her affair. She'd lost her moral compass, and she wished her H had been more clear about his disapproval, because she was too confused to see how wrong it was.

Good luck, FORGED. Fight hard, be strong. You will be rewarded for it, no matter what happens.

GC