Forged,

I have read through your thread here and can only tell you that finding out about the PA was inevitable. Still, as one who has been there, I know this is a gut-wrenching moment that really changes the situation.

You feel like you don't know what is real anymore. You can't trust. You can't believe. You think you might not want to continue in a marriage where such deceit has been perpetuated. She lied to your face while you tried so hard to save your marriage... how does one recover from that?

There is recovery for you, Forged. Perhaps as a couple, perhaps on your own. But you will recover from this.

Your marriage is not unsalvageable unless YOU decide at this point that it is over. She's already said she wants out, but remember, her opinion was formed after vastly rewriting your marital history and assigning you all sorts of distasteful characteristics that you didn't you possessed! She is in the FOG. She believes her own lies just as she expected you to keep believing her lies.

The affair is out in the open now. Continue to show your proof of the physical affair to family and friends, also to family and friends of OM. Once the affair is out in the open there will be no place for WW and OM to hide. The secrecy of their "love" will meet the full glare of reality and it is then that the affair can begin to crumble.

Stay strong. Hang in there.

~ Snow

Thanks for the reply, Snowbelle. I haven't yet decided it is over, and I do see a tiny ray of hope.

W called me tonight while I was picking out a DVD. At first all she said was, "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry" I told her I was sorry for not seeing how sad and lonely she was before A, and that I was sorry I ws forced to send the letter to her family, but that I had no other choice. She was very stuffed up from crying and her cold and sore throat. She said she had talked with her family, and hadn't seen OM since Thursday. I cant remember if she said "seen", or "talked to", but at this point it isn't a big deal. The fact that she didn't run to OM after the stuff hit the fan was reassuring. I don't know where we will go from here. It will be a long road to recovery, if that is where we are headed. One day at a time. She said she would be home tomorrow. I asked when, but she wasn't sure. She said she was going to spend some time with SIL, and do yoga, etc. I asked her not to see or call OM. She didn't directly answer me, as she had a poorly timed snot break. I said it would be nice to eat dinner together.

She repeatedly apologized, with non-specific apologies. I thanked her for calling, told her I loved her and missed her. She did not reply to the ILY, as I expected.

It was good to hear her voice, and better to hear her remorse. I honestly didn't think I would hear from her today, and I certainly didn't expect to hear an apology.

I didn't harp on her for anything, but I did tell her that if she had any thoughts of working on our problems, that she would never be able to see or talk to OM again.

I thank the Lord that her family put some sense of morality back into her.

One day at a time.

Hi Forged.

You have SAND br'a. Exposing my Squids affair was about the hardest, bravest thing I ever did. I commend you on your bravery and sense.

If you want to see how Squid reacted when I exposed her affair, skip to the 'New BS toolkit' thread where I bundles loads of that stuff in it.

It pretty much hurts me to re-read that stuff nowadays so forgiv eme if I don;t re-pick that scab here in your thread.

Just know that your WW hasn't found any kind of morality yet if she is like most WWs. She's sorry for all kinds of things, but MAYBE only one of them is having the affair.

Sorry she didn't cover up better, sorry she was caught, sorry her Mom thinks she's a low dog... takes a long while for th estreak of agressive entitlement to drop. Our mutual friend Gimble helped me enormously through that phase.

Exercising boundaries is UTTERLY critical, as is demonstrating CONDITIONAL love and support though consistency not gesture.

When the A eventually dies ( as virtually all of them do, particularly after exposure) your WW is going to feel REALLY sh1tty and will FEAR your retribution an dliving with the weight of her sin against you on her head for ever.

You have to start NOW demonstrating CONSITENTLY that IF she repents of her affair and returns to be the wife she should be you will do all in your power to keep her safe, and to start the process of forgiveness.

the really hard part is you gotta start that NOW - continue as you have been, avoiding LBs, trying to meet ENs, appearing capable and attractive: show you WANT her back but you don;t NEED her back, even if you don't feel like that today.

Its hard, mate, SO very hard. But you show lots of sand and faith. You can do it.

Anone who quotes Joe Strummer can do it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All blessings.

BOB, I know the pain, so no scab picking required here.

"When the A eventually dies ( as virtually all of them do, particularly after exposure) your WW is going to feel REALLY sh1tty and will FEAR your retribution an dliving with the weight of her sin against you on her head for ever." +++
W has already expressed her concern that I would rehash and hound her with her transgression. I told her I would do no such thing once we have worked into recovery. We will need to rehash the details to get into recovery, to some degree, to re-establish the boundries normally expected in a M.

" appearing capable and attractive" I guess I need to find someone to shave my back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


My initial exposure, when I thought it was an EA, was widespread. My exposure after discovery was precisely targeted to those I felt would have the strongest influence on W's moral compass, the IL's & hre Big sis. I am thankful that I chose that approach, because I don't wish public humiliation on W. I want her to feel like there is hope for a normal life again, withing the M, and maitaining most of our original friendships.


"The journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step." Lao-Tsu

I am having great difficulty maintaining my composure right now. W said she would be home from SIL's house for dinner, but she isn't home. I have been told not to call her, so I wait. Dinner is ready, all my chores are done, and I am incapable of reading right now.

My ability to approach W with stely eyes and an open face is dwindling, as I feel my jaw set, my eyes narrow, and my heart rae increase. Her lack of contact is rude, and I am begining to wonder why I bother trying to save what is left of the M. I used to love her with all of my heart. I used to think that we were destined to be together. Now she is just like all of the cheating others I have been forced to deal with.

I hope this vent helps me unwind, otherwise it will be tough to keep my cool.

Hi, Forged.

Here is the deal.

You can't control her.

Make your dinner. If she is not there to eat with you. Toss the left overs, then clean up. Go on with your life.

Don't sit and wait on her. Go to a friends house. Go hammer some steel. Don't tie your life up in what she does or doesn't do. Remember, you want her, you don't need her.

At this point in time, all you can do is stick to your plan. Since the next move in this game is hers, then her actions will answer your question.

Gimble

There ar etwo good aspects to getting on with your life Forged.

one is, you might JUST have to get used to it. may as well start now not being codependent. Not healthy whether or not you reconcile with your WW.

Two is, its shocking , alluring and attractive ina strange way to a WW to see the previously desperate 'pathetic' BS being capable, coping, enjoying life without the WS. They LOVE being the centre of their little dramas.
When Squid realised on eday that I wanted her back, but I didn't NEED her back, she quaked. All the assumptions about me were smashed.

Live well: as well a spossible. Invite your WW to join in, if she doesn't, well, her loss.

It works.

{{{{forged}}}}

BOB, Sunday was probably my darkest day. I had a very hard time coming to terms with the truth of the sitch. Her call the day before had more effect on me than I had thought. I took it as a good sign, but she really was just sorry to get caught. Having my hopes dashed again, was a blow that drove me to a splitting point. Luckily, I was on the good side of the split when all was said and done. I avoided the negative and destructive urges I felt, and had a cathartic bonfire. W never came home that night, but she did finally call at 10. I tried to keep my cool. She told me she was choosing OM over me, in so many words.


This morning, she was miserable, many factors compounded into a big pile of misery, in contrast to my whistling of the Squirrel Nut Zippers. She had her guilt, her cold, her cough, I think she had a fever, (but she said my hands were just cold), monthly time, etc. I let her kow that I was praying for her to feel better on all fronts. I let her know that I have not spoken ill of her, and that she deserves to be happy. She said she wanted me to be happy too. I had finished breakfast and was reading Nat. Geo., she sat down to eat, and I said something nice(??) , she looked at me teary eyed, and said she wasn't hungry anymore. I told her she needed to eat to get better, and rubbed her shoulders. I said that I still wanted to be married to her, and I knew that she couldn't understand why. She said that she really messed things up. I let her know that it wasn't too late to alter our future.

Last night, W was vacillating between remorse and confrontation. For the most part, I was distant and reserved. I did let her know I thought what she did was dispicable, which I suppose is a disrespectful judgement, but too bad.

A bit later last night, W was in a coughing fit. I told her she sounded like my good friend, who is also sick. She said "He hates me now." I told her he didn't hate her, but couldn't understand what she was doing, or why. She said I had told her he hated her. What I told her was that he told me I should move on. I pointed out that the couple of friends I told the details to, I also said I was trying to save M. My friends W has repeatedly asked if she could call my W. I said she was welcome to do so, but that her intentions may be misread as an attempt at coercion.

I am trying very hard to bust the dependency you describe, BOB. It is a difficult task. What were the things that helped you accomplish letting go and moving on?

I am trying very hard to bust the dependency you describe, BOB. It is a difficult task. What were the things that helped you accomplish letting go and moving on?

I hate writing this because it makes me look like an emotionaless monster ,but it worked for meand it's true so here you have it: I treated "Plan A" like a project at work. A high stakes one, but a project nevertheless.

I laid out all the factors affecting on a mind mapping sheet.

I determined that:

* Squid was quite evidently not rational as evidenced by her behaviour and so I could not reason with her.
* she chose such an absolute fvckup as an affair partner that even in my state of reduced self-worth I realised it was about something other than my own delinquency as a husband so I allowed myself to not take her affair as a personally intended slight.
* I assessed that effectively I had already 'lost' Squid. I allowed myself to grieve for her loss, rather than cling to the vestiges of her that still remained and were recognisable.
* in summary, she'd gone, I was in damage limitation and the affair wasn't aimed AT me, it was all about Squid and her own issues. I was just collateral damage.

Once I realised this and took it all to heart, I felt released to operat emy plan A without fear that any fvckup from me would drive Squid into OMs arms. She was already there. I could only win her back or mourn her loss - I couldn't do anything to make her MORE lost to me.

Finally and most importantly I realised that whatever their mother did, my kids would always need me to be strong, capable and loving AND I wanted to be able to tell themone day that I did everything in my power to keep their mommy at home with us,whether she came back or not.

So, FORGED, bundle all that together and you see why plan A was the LOGICAL choice, and I could detach because in fact I recognised I couldn't lose her again with any of my actions. My studies of affair dynamics showed me that.

All the vileness and spite she threw at me and kids was ALWAYS underpinned with my relalization that if ever it got too bad I could divorce her and even GOD would allow me to. I redrew the line every day.

I wanted her back but I didn't NEED her back.

I soaked up some months of withdrawal spite,but she ended up seducing me !

She tells me now that I have never been more attractive to her than at the end of withdrawal/start of true recovery.

I was worth fighting for. Just like Dobson says in "Love Must be Tough".

She has told me since, during recovery that she WANTS me to need her again. But in truth I won't ever need her again. One casualty of this mess has been my naive dependecy on Squid.

So, not romantic or clever, but rcognising the facts of the situations , just like an important project at work helped me immensely in detaching and losing the desperate taker from the equation for a while.

FORGED I dunno if this would work or you, but it certainly worked for me.

Hope this helps

All blessings.

Bob,
What you said is essentially a distillation of the expert advice of Gimble. My disfuctional brain could use as many different explanations as possible. The want and need parts are where I get tripped up. As REM sang " When what you want and what you need have been confused..."

I need her, I think, and it is that internal mixup that I am trying to fix. I won't bore you with schmaltz. I am trying very hard to fix this. This confusion is why I get tripped up in my plan A tactics, and let myself get wrapped up in pity panic like I did on Sunday when W decided not to come home again.

I lead a lonely life. I have busy friends, and no children to occupy my time. I have been trying to get a job for a couple of months. In the meantime, my solitude makes me need W. (or at least think I need W.)

I am waiting to see a change in her, and the changes I see are not good. I know this is the wrong mindset. I know I need to cut her off as my anchor, and find my own.

My W also chose an affair partner that I NEVER EVER would have expected, and now she denies saying the derogatory things that she used to say about him.

All told, I would say that my only trip up is your list item # 3. I have greived for her loss, but I still cling to her vestiges. She still lives here, and now berates me for not giving her the divorce, among other things.

I am praying to find the strength and fortitude that you found. I am looking within to find the good person I know I am, and to ignore the horrible things I have heard.

Thanks for your help.

FORGED,

If you do nothing else, go to the library and read some books on...anything. Take up walking, or golfing, or bowling, or register for some classes at the community center. As you begin to fill your life with things that enrich it, you will accomplish several things. You will see new opportunities, meet new people, and have much less time to dwell on what is lost.

You may not realize this but the woman you crave does NOT exist now, and may never again. Bob, gave you great advice, move on and fill your life. Seek that job, and seek new friends. A life is more than the job (although a job is a good thing right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), it is friends, activities, and hopefully faith.

Seek out these things in other places, for you will find NONE of them with the woman that looks like your W. Your W may return, but when she does she will find a different man. You will be a very changed man. A man with more friends,interests, comfortable in your own skin, and a man that knows he can make it through the fires of H*** and survive.

Time to start on project FORGED. I do think it an appropriate name, for clearly you are being tempered with all of this.

Time to look elsewhere Forged, within yourself, within your beliefs, and outward toward the world. Your answers don't lie within your W. The never really did and they surely don't now.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning,
Thanks for your sage advice. I found myself nearly quenched in these turbulent waters. I was untempered and quite brittle. I am so thankful to have found this place, and the path to a better place. I have found my faith again, and my callousness has been rubbed away.

Perhaps part of the problem with M was that I looked to W for answers. Answers to questions that only I could answer.

I will fill my life, for a full life is my goal. I aspire to be much more than a husk of a man clinging to a fading dream.

Thank you for the hearty dose of optimism!

W came home at her usual 10pm last night. She had spent half the day at MIL's. She was talkative when she arrived, so I turned off the movie I had jsut started, and we chatted superficially for a while. The we (embarrased pause) watched survivor from last week. After that we chatted a bit more. She brought up the only R talk when she was walking ot of our bedroom to go to the room she sleeps in. I looked up from reading and looked into her eyes silently. She looked back and said, "You know, I never meant to hurt you" I told her that I knew she didn't set out to hurt me, but it happened. I said that there were options we hadn't yet considered, and that it would be very hard for me to move forward in the direction she was suggesting without exploring those options.

This morning, I said that we needed to look into these other options. She said "what options?" I said that it was possible for us to be happy with each other, and that we could have a marriage that was better than it had ever been before. SHe asked "How?" I said that the man she stopped loving no longer existed, just as the woman I loved no longer existed. I said that it would be impossible for me to revert to the old me. How could I unlearn what I have learned? Just as you are differnet, I am different, and I refuse to look back, and choose to go forward. I said that I realized that I was not meeting her needs, and was neglecting her. Because of that understanding, I would never allow it to happen again.

She was quiet after that. A bit later, I walked over and held her in my arms. She became slightly emotional, but still quiet. I said "It would be wonderful to be in love with my wife again, and for her to be in love with her husband. I said I am struggling to cope with these developments in our relationship. She was quiet for a bit, did a few prep tasks for leaving, and asked why I sent the letter. I told her that I did not send the letter to embarras her, but that my every attempt to reach her was thwarted by her manuevering. I said that the only way I could reach her was with the help of her family. I said that I needed them to know of my willingness and desire to work out our problems, and to remain married. I said that i had no other choice but to send the letter, and asked her if she saw any other choices that I had. She offered no other options. A bit later, she became confrontational, and tried prying informatin from me. I offered no info, and simply stated that my life is an open book, and I would be happy to share anything and everything with her, if she would consider our possibilities.

She said she would be home earlier tonight. I will make Panang Shrimp. I will not wait for her to eat. I will not stick around if she isn't home when I finsh eating. I made that point clear to her.

Tomorrow is OM's birthday. I asked if she had any plans, and if she would be coming home tomorrow night. She said she didn't have plans and would be coming home. I believe the home part, but that is all. I can't be worried about it, anyway. I will be home, sleeping in my bed, and she will make her own decisions. At some point, she will realize the depth of despair that comes from consistently making poor decisions. My crumbs will be there to lead her out of that quagmire.

Forged, you did good.

She noticed.

Gimble

I need to practice my duck and cover and babble techniques. There is way too much mortar lobbing for my thin skin.

Every time W sees OM, she is recoached in her attack plan. Whittle away at my defenses seems to be the tactic. Trouble is, I only recently learned how to make those defenses. I had led a completely unguarded life with WW.
Now I must parctice nuclear defense strategies to survive this onslaught.

Hi, Forged.

It sure looks like pressuring your resolve is the only tactic other man knows.

Hang in there.
Gimble

W started an R talk on the way out this morning. She said she regretted building our home again, and I babbled. She said that we would never have been able to build this house if it weren't for her father (true) and that only her name should have been on the mortgage, with him as a co-signer( she admitted that those were his words) She tried roping in the whole ten year marriage under the bad heading. I asked her to clarify the statement, and she changed the time to 4 years. I said we both failed our marriage by not working harder together to meet each other's needs, but that only she was responsible for her choices. I said I never ever would have thought that she would cheat on me. I asked her how she could make those choices knowing that I had been hurt that way before, and knowing what it would do to me. I said I really didn't think she understood what it has done to me. I told her that not only did she blow my trust in her, but my trust in people in general. She said she knew she made the wrong choices, but said she couldn't go back. I said I had no intention or desire to go back. That I would never want to go back, and I could not unlearn the things I have learned. I said I have learned to be a good husband. I learned that I was neglecting you, and not meeting your most important emotional needs. I said that I didn't know if we could save our M, but that I was willing to try. I said that she hadn't yet given me any reason to forgive her, but that I believed it was within my capacity to try to forgive her if she gave me reason to do so, and that if we went down that path, that she could be sure I would not hold a grudge or brow beat her with her actions. She said she never meant to hurt me. I said I understood how she could feel that way. but that she knew what she was going to do would hurt me, before she did it, and therefore I have a hard time believing that she didn't mean to hurt me. She said that what she did was very selfish....

There was more, but not much. She left with her tail between her legs, and not because I brow beat her with her actions, but because I found a few new ways to show her how her actions affected me. I asked her to go for more MC. She said she didn't want to go through it all over again, and rehash all of the details (even though she does it daily) I said that rehashing wouldn't be necessary. I said that I was struggling with this, and having a hard time getting past it. I said that In order for me to move past this, I needed to go to counseling with her.

I think that talking with SH would be very helpful, but I am unsure when the best time would be. Sh still said she dooesn't want to be with me, but she still lives here (she says it is her house). She says she wants a D, but she hasn't filed. If she is fence sitting, then time will help, with my PMA and changes, I must be more attractive to her. I wonder when is the best time to enlist the help of others. Should I take the slow approach, and let the A die first, or should I take her statements of selfishness and admission of making the wrong choice as a sign to get the help now?

WW seems to apologize every day on her way out the door. I said that there were still options that she could choose that would allow us both to move on with more self respect and self esteem. She said that she was done with our M way before she started A. I looked her in the eyes and said, "W, your A started way before you told me you had problems with me. I know you well enough to be sure that you wouldn't talk to someone that much if you weren't falling in L with them, and I know you well enough to say with certainty that you would not have had the A if you didn't think you were falling in love with OM." She got a wrinkly chin and turned away silently. I then said, " I do think you should be responsible for your half of the bills, but I can't force you to do anything. I don't need your money, and I don't need your love. I want your love, but I no longer need it." She cried silently, turned away for a couple of minutes. I said that I knew she was running late, and that we shouldn't talk like this when she is walking out the door. She said she was sorry again, and we said goodbye. I said it was good to see her, and that I hoped to see her again tonight, and that it was always a high point in my day. She shook her head a bit, as if to wonder how I could still want to see her. She left, and came back into the kitchen, and then called upstairs to me to say she had placed her check on the island.


I think her IC and the OM are pushing her to be mean and blunt to me. After every session, she digs into me with any possible fault she can find. She often drags up the full 10 year M as if it were all bad, but by her own admission, she only felt the problems for the last few years. I am continuing my plan A. It is hard since she is only home for an hour or so each day, and hasn't been home on the weekend in a month or more. I am thankful for the time that she is here.

She steadfastly refuses to consider any option other than D, but she knows she has no grounds for D. I am thankful that we live in a state with stringent D grounds. This morning during a financial talk, she said something about atty. She said she didn't retain one yet. I dittoed. I asked if she intended to lie when she retained atty, since she has no grounds for D. She said " You have grounds for D." I quickly pointed out that I had no intention of D.

She is frustrated, but I am certain that OM is more frustrated than she. He is bound to trip up, and then we will see who will outlast.

I had an endocrinologist test today for testosterone levels, to sort out LD issues. WW seemed genuinely concerned, but it is tough to tell what from her is genuine these days. She called after the appointment, and seemed anxious to hear the results. I am uncertain if she was anxious due to my expressed concerns re: thyroid cancer, or if she wanted to know about LD issues. Either way, the call was out of the ordinary, and her kindness this morning was also unusual in light of recent attitudes. She said she would be home early today, but I am not holding my breath at this point. I will cook and eat without her if she is late.

I am waiting for any signs of changing attitudes from her, and I have seen little to nothing to increase my hope. I am patient, and I am learning to keep myself busy without her. Eventually, I will convince myself that I don't need her anymore. In the meantime, I will recite the above, over and over. I know it is true, but I still feel a vast emptiness in her absence.

I am in the middle of what seems to be a rather ineffective plan A. The plan is working well for me, because I am feeling better about myself every day. It doesn't seem to have much effect on W. She has adopted a twisted sort of plan b, and is gone 90% of the time. She has been gone every weekend for the last month, and they were all extended.

She is continuing to treat me with a complete lack of courtesy and respect. She says she will be home by a certain time, and I tell her I know she won't. She then says that she most certainly will, only to show up unannounced 3 1/2 hours after the time she stated. I have managed to distance myself to the point that these actions are not hurtful anymore.

W still manages to confuse me. I practically gave her the golden key out of our M last night. I asked her if she and OM have ML, and if they did, if they used a condom. She said she didn't want to answer that. I said that it would be in her best interest to answer it, since it may be just what she needs to do to get what she wants. She still said she didn't want to answer.

To me, it would be the deal breaker if they ML without protection. Perhaps it may be an odd place for me to draw the line, but it is drawn, in concrete. I have had experiences that don't care to rehash, and W knows enough to realize that. Not to mention the fact that W & I always used a condom!

I am confused why she chooses not to answer the question, when she knows it could eliminate my desire to save M.