I had a great one hour session with Steve Harley today, and developed a plan for my unusual situation. I was doing OK, and getting ready to head over to Europe with my 8 year old this weekend. He said I need to lead her toward the possiblility of the ideas on Marriage Builders working out our problems. Contest the divorce and show that I need to know there is no hope before I sign on to it.

But then my wife called, and all of her compassion from the weekend is gone, and turned to anger. She's still on the divorce march. She was in DC today and went to dinner with the OM (19 year old) his dad, and her friend. Then they went bowling. Her exact words,"He's still very special to me."

Like a sword through my stomache. I faltered. Told her that was incredibly hurtful. Slipped a little bit on LBs, but recovered too. She went back to never being able to forgive me for calling police because I was afraid. I reminded her in no uncertain terms that I was afraid for her, not me. I stated it to the police, and the court, and put it in writing.

She said you didn't even apologize when I was led out of the house. She also commented that I said it was the "worst day of my life" without any regard for what was happening to her. I also didn't say I was sorry then, but I have several times since.

I'm sure she's rehashing the anger and pain over in her mind.

I think I have to call the OM and dad and explain I don't want ANY contact between them and her. I'm trying to save our family, and further contact only makes it worse. I need her focused only on the four of us. I need to get over the pain before I can call them though.

I'm sure she's not going to appreciate the fact that I'm interfering with her Boy Toy, but who gives a damn. She still doesn't think it was a real affair. Steve pointed out today that she was probably still bonded to the ex-boyfriend when we got married. I'm sure he was right.

I am working on this small spark of hope to fan into a flame. Does she have any guilt from the fog?

I'm torn again to know if she pursues the relationship with the OM, do I come down full force with the lawyers? I guess that would be a nuclear option and end the hope of reconcilliation.

Feeling better now that I'm separated from the flame of anger. I've got to get tougher about that. OM get's a phone call tomorrow to stay out of touch in hopes that I can give the kids a family. I'll also call the dad for that.

I re-read notes from the call with Steve Harley, and reaffirmed this is a marathon and not a sprint. I need to get used to some arrows coming my way and take it like a man.

Hi Sleepless,

I hope somebody with experience comes along soon and gives you advice.

However from my short experience here and reading I think you should realize that you cannot order WW or OM not to see each other, because it just won't work. Simple. If they want to get together, they will, you cannot stop that unless you physically restrain them. And all that includes LBs and AOs etc which are not part of plan A.

Plan A includes exposure. Read about that. I'm sure SH made a plan for you including exposure.
The rest is mostly patience and you becoming a SAFE and attractive person for your WW.

Hope this helps a little, but expect more advice. You are still very emotional andmost probably will be for a long time, so you have to "protect" yourself from emotional decisions. You have already talked to the OM and told him you want to fight for your M, have you also told the father?

Hi SNS,

Ugh.Well,all the more reason NOT to send your son back to be with your WW and around the BoyToy.What on God's GREEN EARTH is the BoyToys' FATHER doing being out with them? Is he their chaperone for Pete's sake? I did expect this contact might happen if she went back after the way you sumarily dismissed BoyToy before.

At this point,I would not let son go back to Europe(have you asked Steve about this?);I would call the OM and his dad and tell them how you feel about their involvement with YOUR WW and continue to do whatever Steve says.He's the boss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you still hold out hope for you and your WW,stall the D and don't do anything legal just yet unless there is a major custody or financial issue that she tries to pull.Remember that 180 list.

Hang in there.

O

Thanks for the encouragement. The OM is still in DC and my WW won't be seeing him now for awhile unless he buys a ticket back over. I think I can ensure the OM will restrain himself for now. He has a lot of guilt. At least until a divorce is final.

Steve was concerned that I wasn't ready for the full 180 list yet. Playing hard to get might not be that effective in this situation.
However, some of it still applies, like what to believe that's coming out of her mouth.

He also said using the kids as leverage wouldn't be a good idea either right now.

I'm first going to apologize for some of the hurtful things I've said recently, attributing it to some of the guidance I've been given at marriage builders and the pain I was feeling at the time.

Finally, this visit this weekend will give her the opportunity to see me in a happy environment and share good experiences with our son.

Most of all be prayerful and steadfast. Right now I'm doing this for the kids, and a little bit for me. It's painful work.

SIS

My plan is to head over this weekend

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong>What on God's GREEN EARTH is the BoyToys' FATHER doing being out with them?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two potential explanations

1. The acorn doesn't fall far from the tree, or

2. They're not on the GREEN EARTH - their brains are in a petri dish on the Mothership.

WAT

OK, a 3rd explanation:

All a lie by the WS. A good reason to call the Dad.

WAT

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

WAT - LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. They're not on the GREEN EARTH - their brains are in a petri dish on the Mothership.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I needed that. I'll know today which theory is correct.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

WAT lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It's still hard for me to believe there are people like this out there.(shaking head) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

SNS,

No one has suggested that you use the kids as leverage.However,there is a safety issue that maybe you don't agree with or see as an issue? Is your WW going to be the only one with your son in Europe? I am getting a bit confused with all your travel talk of back and forth.My concern is your son being around an irresponsible and self motivated WW.If the BoyToy,son and WW are all going to be in the general vacinity,the concern is exposing your son to inappropriate behavior.I can't remember if you mentioned this before but does your son know anything that is going on with the nanny(OM)?

Second,I don't think the 180 list means that you are playing hard to get.If you go over the list,you are basiclaly stopping chaotic behavior,listening to your WS,being patient,don't lose your cool,take care of yourself,speak softly,don't back off on changes,looking like you are getting on with your life,etc,etc.Afterall,she has been threatening D.Is Steve suggesting Plan A more?

Out of curiosity: what guidance at MB did you think was attributable to hurtful things you said? As far as I am aware,we have tried to help you understand the concepts,Plan A,how to respond to your WW and what we think is inappropriate behavior and what our experiences are and have been with Infidelity and being here on MB.

O

Sorry O girl.

Mom and son will be alone in Europe. OM is still in DC. I've been counseled and convinced that DS8 is in no danger. I understand about the concern about the WW mentality, but she is really a very good mother in all other aspects. She is certainly affected by her relationship with the OM. He's been sad and misses mom. He also knows we're having an argument, but doesn't know details. I think the only way to protect both sons now is to convince WW there is still hope for love between us. Both sons know there was an inappropriate relationship between mom and OM. The 18 year old knows details.... because she told him... and grossed him out. The 8 year old only knows that OM was having a relationship with mommy that only daddy should have, so he had to leave.

DS 18 called crying from college two days ago telling me he didn't want us to get a divorce. He called again later in physical pain from one of the worst migraines of his life.

I just sent this letter to the OMs father. Edited out the names for the post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey 'OM dad'. As you can imagine, life in the 'SIS' family is pretty dismal right now. The easy thing would be to go along with WW and let her have a divorce.

But I really owe it to the kids to try and work it out with her. DS18 is calling me crying from California telling me he doesn't want us to get a divorce. DS8 is getting headaches and stomach aches and is generally sad. I'm pretty messed up too. One of the most painful experiences of my life.

I've talked to some counselors that have helped me realize a lot of the problem is that I have not been meeting many of Lirio's needs. So OM met those needs. Not that WW is blameless, but I can only control my side of the relationship.

I'm going to try and see if I can meet those needs now. I don't know if it's too late, but I want to try. The counselors have cautioned me that I have no hope of doing that if someone else is meeting those emotional needs.

I can't tell WW not to talk to OM anymore. The counselors have told me her actions are similar to an addict on drugs. The interaction provides a rush of drugs to the brain that encourages the addiction. My only hope is for OM not to be in contact anymore.... at least while there's hope to save our family. That will not be easy until she goes through withdrawal from OM. She said you all went out to eat and then bowling last night. After that she called and was really venomous toward me. Before that she had been reaching out and communicating. She's suffered a sort of relapse.

The problem is that I can't tell you not to be in contact. She can't believe that I told you and OM not to contact her. It has to be OM's idea to break off the communication because of what he thinks it's doing to our family. OM needs to believe in his heart it's the right thing to do because I'm sure he has an emotional connection to her too.

This event in our lives has the opportunity to he a turning point for good, or the end of our family. I need to at least try to heal our family. I still love her and the boys very much and realize I have not given her what she needs. I want to try and do that now regardless of the pain.

Thanks for your understanding. Regardless of what you decide I hope you won't tell WW and OM that I sent you this message.

Thanks
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of curiosity: what guidance at MB did you think was attributable to hurtful things you said? As far as I am aware,we have tried to help you understand the concepts,Plan A,how to respond to your WW and what we think is inappropriate behavior and what our experiences are and have been with Infidelity and being here on MB.

That was due to a miswritten sentence on my part. I have been using Love Busters toward my wife. I've learned what those are from the MB site and the advice I was given here. I'm working to remove those from my vocabulary to stop the withdrawals and build the deposits.
You've done a great job with the Plan A advice and the 180 list. I will be using much of the 180 list in conjunction with the Plan A.

Steve explained that my first step is to convince her there is a plan that can restore or develop love in our marriage. He believes she may never have been in love with me. I have to agree. I don't see any conflict with yours and Steve's recommendations.

Thanks for helping me with my communication skills too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

One more thing. This one is more sensitive and goes to the inappropriate statements I referred to above. I've written an E-Mail to my WW, and would like an independent review before I hit send.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't change what happened, but I can change how I behave in the future. So let me start by honestly telling you what I feel.

I'm sorry for many of the things I've said in anger, because I was hurting and I lashed out. I think you can relate to that. I wanted to blame someone else because I didn't want to admit it was partially my fault. You've always been honest, and I just didn't want to hear something was really wrong. That's not what I should have done. You reached out to me, and I resisted. I don't want to do that anymore.

I'm sorry I disparaged your family. I really like your dad and I'm awfully fond of your mother too. I'm sorry they didn't work things out because I'm sure they really loved each other. You know I stick up for her when you get mad at her. She and I had a couple of good talks when she was here last, and I hope she can forgive me one day too. I still worry about her. Your grandmother and grandfather are wonderful people. He was a terrific man. It was an honor to know him, and I'm better because I did. I'm really fond of the rest of your family too.

I am sorry I let you believe there was something wrong with you, and I was perfect. I'm not perfect. Much of what I've learned in the last month showed me what I've been doing to hurt your feelings. Cause you to lose trust in me and push you away from me. I think back and you tried to tell me several times, and I chose to ignore it because I wouldn't like what I found.

I am sorry I let you believe that you need to fix what was wrong with our marriage. I know you've been trying for 10 years to love me. I read that book 'Love is a Choice' that you found, and never showed it to you because I didn't really believe what it said. But I didn't really know what the answer was. You may realize that I haven't been saying "Love is a Choice" for awhile now.

I am sorry about what happened with the police that night. We'll never agree on how it happened, but you should know I am more sorry than you can even understand. It ripped a hole in me to know that the woman I love was in jail because of what I did. The only thing I could do was make sure that there is no mark on your record, and there really isn't now. Before that I even looked up the procedure to have the governor clear the record.

Part of this transformation is from what I've read in the Basic Concepts on the Marriage Builders website. It pointed right out what I've been doing to push you away. To steal any love from you that you might have had. There seems to be a lot of good information there on how to build and maintain that feeling of love you've told me you need. I haven't done a very good job of that, but I'm learning. I wish I could say it wasn't too late, but I don't know.
I'm looking forward to a fun weekend with you and DS8. I want it to be a good experience for all of us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did I throw out any LBs? Have I violated any of the Plan A or 180 list. I want to apologize, but sound strong about it. No whining!! I'm going for thoughtful and questioning.

Comments??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SNS,

Starting with the disclaimers...
-I'm not an expert in anything, OK.
-My marriage is messed up too.

Having said that,

My take on the letter is that you are appologizing too much. Your W has done something extremely destructive. She's the one who should be appologizing - not that you can force her too.

But... my guess is that you are a little like me. You probably have been more or less constantly appologizing to your W for years... and you probably didn't really have all that much to appolgize for.

A dozen more appologies is not going to win the day.

I would tone the appologies way down.

-AD

Fair enough. My problem has been the timing of my apologies to some extent. I'm not always quick to apologize for things that are truly my fault because I'm fending of emotional outbursts.

I'm also currently in the mode of trying to get her to come back from her state of withdrawal, so I'm overcompensating a bit, and making a special effort.

Having said that, I'll tone it down a little bit.

Can I get a WW or at least woman's point of view?

SNS,

I agree with AD, I would tone down the apologies. You can still take responsibility for your part in everything that happened without taking it solely upon yourself.

It's good that you are willing to take some responsibility, and I think that is a very important step, but you shouldn't put your wife in a position to shirk all responsibility (which is what MOST WS do).

Good luck, let us know how things pan out.

Big Hugs,
AVNL

I'm a WW or FWW since it has been over for about 4 years now.

I do think you say sorry a lot but I can see how it's a very loving letter taking in the issues she may have with you. For somebody deep in the fog I don't think it's going to make her change her mind.... Least if it was me it wouldn't.

When I was in my affair the only thing that would have made me snap out of it was my kids. In my opinion you need to exercise some tough love. You say she's a good mother and that's great. They may be your reason for wanting to send your son back to her. Personally I think that if you really truely want to save your marriage you should keep your child with you now. Doesn't matter who the better parent is. You keep him with you and tell her that you want your family back. Otherwise you send him back and what motivation does she have to work on your relationship. You're in two different countries and she may say she's going to send him back to you and won't keep him from you but what guarantee do you have on that, after all she once promised to be faithful to you didn't she.

Another excellent point. I'll make the noted revisions and submit.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm a WW or FWW since it has been over for about 4 years now.

I do think you say sorry a lot but I can see how it's a very loving letter taking in the issues she may have with you. For somebody deep in the fog I don't think it's going to make her change her mind.... Least if it was me it wouldn't.

When I was in my affair the only thing that would have made me snap out of it was my kids. In my opinion you need to exercise some tough love. You say she's a good mother and that's great. They may be your reason for wanting to send your son back to her. Personally I think that if you really truely want to save your marriage you should keep your child with you now. Doesn't matter who the better parent is. You keep him with you and tell her that you want your family back. Otherwise you send him back and what motivation does she have to work on your relationship. You're in two different countries and she may say she's going to send him back to you and won't keep him from you but what guarantee do you have on that, after all she once promised to be faithful to you didn't she.

Thank you Endevor. I am wary of that fact about holding my son. I've mentioned before my nuclear option, but in the short term the conditions are as follows.

WW is alone in Europe on temporary assignment.
OM is across the Atlantic in Washington DC, and they physically will not be able to spend time together for timing and financial reasons.

I held DS8 back from Europe because of the affair, and now that separation is established, I need to pursue Plan A and provide loving support.

I'm picking up DS8 the second week in April to bring him home again. I can re-evaluate the situation then. My wife is a pretty high placed official, and her job could be at risk if the news got out about keeping our son and fooling around with a 19 year old. She's actually deathly afraid of it getting out anyway and believes her career is now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessNSeattle:
<strong> Thank you Endevor. I am wary of that fact about holding my son. I've mentioned before my nuclear option, but in the short term the conditions are as follows.

WW is alone in Europe on temporary assignment.
OM is across the Atlantic in Washington DC, and they physically will not be able to spend time together for timing and financial reasons.

I held DS8 back from Europe because of the affair, and now that separation is established, I need to pursue Plan A and provide loving support.

I'm picking up DS8 the second week in April to bring him home again. I can re-evaluate the situation then. My wife is a pretty high placed official, and her job could be at risk if the news got out about keeping our son and fooling around with a 19 year old. She's actually deathly afraid of it getting out anyway and believes her career is now at risk. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">