I think that this is a phase that you are going through to deal with the pain of him going on the trip.

What do you think?

What is so different to have made you change to this point of view?

I can't say that this will be true for you. But, my FWH took the OW on trips to try to regain the thrill and fun of the A. He took her on a trip to the beach just prior to trying to reconcile with me. It didn't work for them. Your WH is probably not getting the "high" he is craving from leading a normal, day-to-day life with her.

Does she speak English? Has she been to the States before?

Another question: how long has there A lasted as far as you know?

You can do this, CC! How about some new hobbies?

Yes Mimi, it is a way of managing the pain of knowing he has taken her on the trip. Do you really think that someday he will be able to be honest and open with me again? As time goes by I see that more and more difficult.

As far as I know the EA has probably been going on for a long time but the PA according to WH started in august 04. I had asked him in september and he denied, then on d day he said he had only lied to me once (september) and that in march when I asked him the A hadn't started. But he may have been referring to actually going away and living with her as he was doing by that time and obviously I'm sure he wasn't referring to an EA which existed before that. After that he would answer with a yes or no the few times I asked a question and said "there was nothing to talk about, everything had been decided". In my experience with WH he was never truthful with others (including family) but he was with me. After d day he went for a weekend with OW and I was advised here to confront him about it. When I asked him if he had gone with her he answered " don't make me answer because I don't want to hurt you". When I insisted he said he had. So I do believe he has difficulty lying to my face. Ommission is his favorite method and OW is very very secret about everything, even stupid things. If you like, the funny thing about this secrecy mania is that they are each keeping the other secret too, now. He keeps the A secret from family and co workers and she has too, except that her family who was obviously involved in the whole affair, now wants to deny everything about the A and keep secret that she is living with WH. It's obvious this cannot go on for too long.

No, OW doesn't speak english but started taking classes in january or february, probably when they decided to take this trip, which would also explain why they cancelled their vacations in february. With a friend we laughed at the image of OW sitting in the hotel room trying to watch TV in english...in secret, but they probably have some spanish TV too.

Mimi, I don't know how you did it. I hate the lies and deceit and secrecy. And of course that is exactly what they use. I can't imagine ever believing anything WH says or does again. I have never lived in secrecy, lies and deceit and never plan to, but that is their way of life. How can a person choose that kind of life and then want honesty and transparency again? How could I ever trust this person again?

In the beginning, the words here and in the books convinced me that whatever happened (and there were many horrible actions done by WS) recovery is possible. But as time goes by, I get weaker and can't imagine myself recoverng this marriage. Plan B is a life saver, because it's true that the less you know , the less you are hurt. But I keep hurting as much as at the beginning and now I'm losing hope. And I have embraced Plan B, remember I have not talked to him or seen him. Guess the only way to try to keep strong is to get busy and try to know the less possible about the A so as not to be hurt.

I started crying yesterday and I can tell that today is going to be one of those days I will have difficulty controlling it. But I'll try.

Another big problem here is that I cannot share all this with anyone. At the tea party I went on friday both a friend and her 80 year old mother told me to get a divorce, and to start dating now. I tried to explain why that wasn't a good idea and maybe they sort of understood, but I wish I had more support and not having to defend my actions. My BIL even said that this sitch was my fault too because I kicked WH out! So I had to explain that what I had really done was set him free to continue his A without being forced to be a part of it. He also understood that part. NOBODY has said, wait, recovery is possible. Among my circle of friends and acquaintances I am becoming something like a freak because I openly talk about WH's A when asked. Everyone has a story about friends who separated and eventually got back together but "they never knew if there was an A involved". People don't like to talk about As. Lots of denial and fear.

Anyway, I guess I needed to vent. I will go cook (dds have complained that there's no food at home) and then go to church. Take the dog out for a walk and do some work.

Thanks for answering so promptly Mimi. Your answer came at 1:47 am for me, so after venting here I went to bed and tried to sleep. Lately I'm sleeping little.





Guess the trip did make it one of the bad days.
And there are signs that he still respects me (sending the money, taking his stuff).

CC:

Your situation and feelings are no different than mine was.

I really used to feel the exact same way that you do.

I have a lot to say in response to your post. FWH, whom I thought that I could never trust again (you hear me?) wants my almost constant attention. Don't have much time on the weekends.

I think you are responding to the trip. You already know yourself that this is a test that she will fail. However, it is extremely painful for you that he is taking her.

I think that you need to EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE as much as you can. ROB THEM OF THEIR SECRECY!

He more than respects you. He is trying to give you a signal that he is holding onto you by giving you the money. I guarantee you that he will want to come back. I've got to help you be ready for that. I believe in your marriage!

Thanks Mimi. I guess I am down today but tomorrow will be better. It helps that somebody believes in my marriage, because as I said before, most everyone has reacted sort of implying that I have enough reasons to get a divorce, even my in laws although they didn't come out and say it. They support me.

one of the things that is always at the back of my mind is that NOONE has ever mentioned things that could be my fault, so I just feel guilty but not knowing what for. I know I didn't admire him enough but it is also true that he would not accept my admiration. I think he felt threatened by me and never wanted me to be a part of his professionallife, although he would tell others and me how capable I was and always encouraged me in my career. So how can I be at fault when he wouldn't let me? I now know I should have tried to talk to him about it and not just "given him space" about it. I know I am a conflict avoider, now and will work on that.

Last week I even asked my BIL in an email to tell me what he perceived could be my faults in this marriage, but he hasn't answered so I guess he doesn't really have a strong position on that.

I'm glad you tell me to expose, because I have been a little worried about continuing to expose because during plan B it has been said that it is regarded as vengeance. But in this case where they are keeping everything secret and I have the impression that most think that it was just a one time PA which is over, I feel the need to tell the truth. Last week I told BIL they were living together and he tried to convince me that I was wrong, but maybe finally he accepted it and changed his position.

Anyway, I know you don't post much on weekends so I won't expect you to, and if I don't answer quickly on weekedays it's because at work I have rarely been able to read a whole post in one go, much less write one. But at least I'm busy.

Thanks Mimi.

I also found that I couldn't find support from family and friends. REALLY! If I had listened to them, I would have been divorced.

You have to talk to other people who have been touched by infidelity either here or in your real life.

I'll have to stick to here because nobody has admitted to me that they have been touched except for my friend's 80 yr old mother who said she had 2 friends who had been touched and then had better marriages.

have to go cook

Hi CC:

You asked:



Yes. When and if he wants to reconcile, he will be committed to evidencing his sincerity. Commitment to honesty and openness will be part of the recovery process. You will insist upon this and he will comply. I say it all or the time, "I need for you to be honest with me". It will become one of your life mantras.

Do you mind sharing what D-Day was like? Did you find him with her?

I still think the secrecy is a good thing. He probably hates it. They can't continue to live like that! That's the point of the trip. They want some freedom.

You said:



My FWH on his own is very repentful and ashamed of what he did. Without me even asking, he tells me his whereabouts, tells me about unexplained calls to his cell.... He is clearly pained by it all. Your H will prove to you that he is committed to RECOVERY. You will know when he is serious about it.

It does not feel good to him having to live with his lies, deceitfulness and secrecy. That's why his continuation of it is good. He is certainly beginning to feel pain about this. You should feel concerned if he comes out in the open with the A.

I admire you, CC. I found the entire time period of PLAN B to be extremely painful. However, I grew as a person immensely from the pain that I was feeling. I understand you wanting to give up. However, I honestly don't feel like your situation is hopeless. I think he will want to come back. The question is, will you still want him? That is the greatest danger. That OW will surely fail this test. She can't even speak English! He's trying to get the thrill again with her. He will go on this trip and think of you. I'm sure of that! You have the history. She only has the present with him. She has to constantly try to create thrills. She will run out of magic tricks!

You said:



This must be human nature. This certainly was true for me and my culture is as different from yours as can be!! Don't feel like a freak because of talking about the A! Talk about it openly as much as possible. You want them to feel uncomfortable with their secrecy!

Oh my God I just cant get the hang of this new board.
My password does not work on a temporary one.
I KEEP GETTING LOGGED OUT.
The kids are on holiday and i cant post hardly atall they are on the computer.

I am here I am thinking of you.
Good luck with the new job.
Stay busy dont think about WH trip Mimi is right she will fail he will get irritated with her.

My saga goes on drama drama drama will post properly soon probably have to get up in the middle of the night though but hey it will be on day time in the US LOL

I think we all have to follow a process of how we reach peace within ourselfs some get there sooner than others but we all get there a lot quicker by following this site because without it I would be in the nut house.

Take care

I hate cooking at the moment well it is not one of my greatest attributes.

But do Goddesses cook.

NO NO NO NO

We only do magic, in pink sunglasses (dont look but also in pink underwear)

Hey girls thanks for your answers. Mimi keeps my hope up.
I am betting my whole life on MB principles. And Mimi, I agree, plan B is extremely painful but at least you have your self respect. And maybe by the time it ends, if recovery is not the ending, you will at least have suffered this process of separating and dissolving the marriage with dignity and respect, have grown as a person and will be able to recover yourself much faster.

D day: I had suspected for a long time that something was going on but it was very difficult to tell because they had perfect excuses to be together ALL DAY. In teh morning they worked in the same place and I suspect that the PA was carried out at lunch time when they left that job and suposedly were doing bank things. Then they would go to WH's office where he is the boss, so he can do whatever he wants.
He would come home about 9, while the office closed at 7, but he was "working and checking emails" etc.
Until May 2004 the office was at home and he would stay on the internet until dinner at 9. So I couldn't complain.
On weekends he would usually go to the beach house and I went with him until march where we had a problem with DDs. We had actually asked OW to stay one weekend. So I didn't go anymore and he kept going. Sometimes I would ask him friday night and he would say he didn't know and then I would catch him sneaking out saturday morning.

Anyway, first I hired a detective who lied to me and said he had gone alone.

Then my brother, who was convinced I was inventing things told me he would go to the toll booth and watch him go by. And that's how he saw him going by with the secretary. Since that day my brother never talked to him until Xmas.

I wrote an email (on word first) telling him I knew and that I was so disappointed etc. and to please answer me and when he called to say he had arrived I told him to read his mail. I trembled all weekend but family and friends kept me sane. he never called or e mailed. On monday he said he was sorry, but that's all. He wouldn't speak spontaneously, just answer ed yes and no to the few questions I asked because I was so numb I couldn't even think of what to ask. He seemed relieved though and since that day hugged me every night and was nicer to me. Then came 2 or 3 weekends he didn't go because he couldn't and then he went with her again! that's when someone here on MB told me to confront him which I did on monday. When I asked him, he said, please don't ask me that, I don't want to hurt you. I insisted and he admitted he had gone with her. They were also spending all day together of course. He NEVER said he would end it. he said he had started PA in august and that he had only lied to me once, in september when I asked him. Of course that doesn'tinclude not telling me he was having an affair during the week, buying her stuff and who knows what else.And that's the way it was during the 2 months of plan A.

have to take the dog out, will be back in an a hour

Why only 2 months of PLAN A? What made you do PLAN B? Has he tried to contact you since PLAN B?

No, he hasn't tried. he has just sent me a few notes and e mails about finances. I couldn't stand plan A anymore.

What was your PLAN A like? How did he respond? Why could you not stand it anymore?

Plan A could only take place 1 hour a day, because he would leave in the morning (not as early as before d day) and come home at dinner time (9pm). Most times he was friendly and we would chit chat during dinner and the watched TV or he would go to sleep. He would give me ahug every night. Weekends we did do family activity.he was detached and I guess he had to be careful of what he talked about in order tokeep his secret life. Everytime I tried to talk of the futur he refused. Remember he was spending ALL DAY with OW.

Plan A wasn't really 2months because he had been so detached in the 2 years previous to this it seemed I had been plan Aing for ever. In march when pressed he had given me the ILYBNILWY speech but said he didn't know what he wanted to do. I had no proof then of an affair, didn't know MB and just gave him space and tried to be nice. So, by d day I just couldn't take it anymore.

The cultural influence here is a little different. He would not have respected me if I hadn't asked him to leave. But I think he was planning on coming to visit, being friendly, enjoying my food now and then, going on family outings etc.
all the while living and working with OW.
I think he was furious or maybe very depressed when he read PBL and realized that there was NC.

he left with a good impression. he did say I was not at fault, that it all had to do with himself. OW is of no importance, etc.

I am more like lemonman: I believe in "shorter" plan As.

CC:

You said:



Why did you say this? You are not like LM. He is divorced and did not follow the MB Principles. Steve Harley does not recommend short PLAN As.

PLAN B is more effective after an EFFECTIVE (for want of a better word) PLAN A in my opinion.

I wrote a long answered and it wasn't posted! ARGGGGGGGG

I've carefully noted whenever SH is advising someone what he says and I remember that he has advised plan B after a short plan A, but don't remember who it was. Also I think Peny/Cherri does advise a shorter period in plan A than what Dr. Harley says in his book. At least that is the conclusion I came to because I felt a little guilty that my plan A ONLY lasted 2 months. But I don't see what I could have done differently. First,without knowing it I had been plan Aing WH for a long time before that thinking that it was actually "giving him space" and " being nice" while he seemed to be going thru a MLC crisis. This was for about 2 years before d day. So if the purpose of plan A is to let him know the kind of person you can be I'd already done that. He actually told me that nothing was my fault, it had all to do with him and not me, he tried very hard to make me angry etc and I never was. I was just confused and frightened. After d day it was the same for me. He never said he wanted to separate or what he wanted to do. It was always "I don't know". He said OW was not important and that he would always take care of us. He was very relieved after d day and although he still tried to provoke me into getting angry every now and then he was much more friendly, we did family things together, but he refused to talk of the R , the A or the futur. He agreed that we would separate after Xmas when dds exams were over but never wanted to talk about that.

Now I consider it very disrepectful and very aggressive for him to spend 12-14 of his 16 waking hours with OW and come home to eat sleep and leave his dirty clothes. Or spend the weekend with OW and bring his dirty clothes.

So how much of that could I take? two months, of numbness and sadness. and incredulity.

So what I think it was a good lasting impression on him. I did not punish him, i freed him. He cut me out of the joint account and left me with the credit cards and no cash. I never asked for anything and never contacted him. yet he respects me, he has been generous. Has never complained about the bills and seems to be respecting my wishes expressed in PBL. I have been consistent and truthful. When we agreed he'd leave after Xmas, I politely asked him to get out on the 26th. I think it was unexpected for him. I said I would not contact him and I don't. I have not interfered in his relationship with dds. in PBL I said I would not have a relationship with him while OW was in the middle. So far he has chosen her. So be it. I free him, but he insists on pretending this is temporary... and OW doesn't REALLY exist.
Is that fog, or what?
But I think it's complicated by depression or MLC or something.

What kind of person was he? the strong silent kind, didn't talk much about his feelings but we spent time together and did talk. He was truthful with me although he lied tomost people because he was private and paranoid. But his family was the number 2 priority after himself and his job, at least that's what it seemed like to me. I did confront him many times over the years about this, and sometimes it would make a difference. he is not very demanding and was very dependant for everyday things. Doesn't cook or wash or even put things away: neither clothes nor papers, nor anything. So you see I would do all those things for him as well as being the parent for all things related to dds and family.

He has no friends and lots of enemies but is very respected professionally.

I found MB after d day, I think the next day and I spent quite a long time just reading. I got the book SAA after 1 1/2 months.

I did the best I could. I'm still hurting, sad and alone. My plan B is according to Dr. H 's advice and the only problem is wanting to know if this is right, if the fact that he is respecting it and continuing the affair 3 months later is "normal" and apparently it is. Dr. H talks of 6 months after exposure as the period during which As try to survive and don't. Guess I should wait 3 months more before getting worried he might never snap out of it. Peny says 1 year.

I'm trying to do everything recommended. I am getting a life, going out, exposing when I consider necessary, but it hurts like h... it is very sad, I've never felt this bad for so long. Yet I have my self respect and I'm getting my self esteem back at least professionally. My dds are doing fine, both socially and with respect to their studies.

Both families support me, and even some of WH's employees call me and show their sympathy.

But none of that takes away the pain and sadness. At least I don't feel guilty on top of that! and you ask, why should I? because I always have felt guilty for everything that happens! But I'm changing.

This is the 3rd time I've tried to post to you. So this is not going to sound as heartfelt as I want this to be. I'm going to talk quickly. I'm sorry that you got caught between some issues that I have with LM. I am so sorry to have caused you any pain. Pain was seeping out of your last post to me.

Your PLAN A is not relevant now. You are doing as best as you can with PLAN B. All of this is awful for us and I'm sorry. You will continue to feel sad and bad. This is a major trauma. I still have not recovered. I don't know if I ever will. I have flashbacks, rages, nightmares... At least, my H tries to help me.

NO PAIN NO GAIN. I think that we will grow from this, at least, into being stronger women.

I do have a question. What needs is the OW fulfilling? You might want to think about this for when he wants to recover the M and he will. Who knows the time frame? Just hold on....

EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE... Bringing this A out into the open will be part of the death sentence.

I'm praying that this posts.

TAKE CARE!!!

Mimi, I understand. And I so appreciate your answering me and helping me with your advice and wisdom. I have also had problems postings... but mainly because the computer at my job is so old and horrible and I am constantly interrupted. Mozilla works great at home.

Anyway, you are right about thinking of the needs she fulfills. Admiration is one, but as I said, before, I knew that and tried and he didn't let me, and this has been going on way before OW.

Point is, if/when he comes back, it{s going to have to be a completely different relationship and I know what the new me wants, but I don't really know what the futur H wants, and he's going to be a diffrent person.

Also, it is a different period in our lives. Basically, as from this moment (and not 2 years ago, for example) we have to plan OUR lives as a couple and not so much as a family because our dds are now grown up and don't have the same needs for support as children do. We can now travel or even leave just for the weekend, which 2 years ago we didn´t feel comfortable doing without getting a housesitter etc.

On the other hand, H will be a different person after this experience. I don´t really know what to expect, so it´s difficult to know what needs he might have. I know everyone thought we were a perfect "couple" because we got on well in spite of WH being quite a difficult person.

Anyway, have to leave the job and go home now. will check later. Thanks again. I don´t want to create problems with you and LM. But it´s true that among others, LM, Cerri and I believe in rather shorter than longer plan As.

I admire LM, because I know surgeons and the kind of personality it takes to be one and I know the environments they work in, and to find one that actually defends fidelity and committment is not something you find everyday.

You said it again. We can be friends again if you stop saying this. I believe PLAN As should last as long as possible. I'm not liable to change my mind about this. OK? If I was around when you were in PLAN A, I would have encouraged you to stick with it, just like Steve Harley encouraged me to stick with MY PLAN despite my FWH's resistance to it!!

That's my Point of View. Sorry. I might use LM as a surgeon. Probably wouldn't use him as a Marriage Coach. He disrespected me by not responding to several posts that I made to him several weeks ago. I think he ignored me because I disagreed with him. This GODDESS is not comfortable at all with that!

Moving right along....

I will be leaving Thursday morning until Monday morning.

Hope to hear from you before then....

Ok Mimi, I won't mention it again. Nothing we can do about it anyway.

I'll miss you.

BTW, yesterday a friend who does some spying for me called me (which is quite unusual as normally she doesn't tell me anything unless I specifically ask) to tell me that she had confirmed that OW and her friend (who works with her) have started classes with one of my dds. Apparently both had abandoned their studies years ago but now have decided to start again since their checking in work and then disappearing to go to class is "approved" or "allowed" by WH who is the boss. My friend was worried for my dd,but I don't think there is anything I can do about it. DD would probably not recognize the friend but she will obviously know OW if they meet. Of course at this moment OW is not around. I think this is the stupidest thing that she could do, but there is nothing I can do about it. Can't shield her from her mistakes.

Are you going away for fun?