cc46's plan B thread - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Hi Mimi,

I love your thread and will post to you about it when I have finished. If you want I can send you the reference, either here or elsewhere (e mail) just in case you want to edit anything. I have the real one anyway, hehehe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

our stories are more similar than you can imagine in spite of the cultural and geographical differences, but my hope was fully restored by reading the first half of the thread!!!!!

I really think you could help so many here...

[ March 23, 2005, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: cc46 ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> have the real one anyway, hehehe <hr /></blockquote>What is the "real one" that you have? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's called My gift to you please listen and dates from may 2003 until probably september (haven't got there yet).

OK, CC. Now I remember. I couldn't recall the name of the thread. I will share with Christine.

do you want me to post the link to you?

CC46,

Mimi seems to be busy a lot, but I found this thread with her name in it. I love Mimi....she's so good to me and for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Please post the thread and I will read it!!

Thanks

-Christine

Christine, I know Mimi wanted you to read it but I wanted her approval before putting the link to the thread on the forum in case she wanted to edit anything, or whatever. I know this is a public forum and any one of us can read it but believe me it was not at all easy to find. Took me several hours of looking at a few hundred pages of GQ II to find it.

I don't feel comfortable about doing this when I have asked Mimi if whe wanted the link and she hasn't answered yet. let's wait a while and see what she says.

It will take you a long while to read, but it is truly enlightening.

Lets hope Mimi answers soon.

CC:

It's fine for you to post it unless you think there's any thing that I wouldn't want posted now?

I don't think I will be able to read it.

I will answer questions that you or others may have. I'm sure it may be too painful for me to read right now.

I want to be as helpful as I can to all of you.

This is my vengeance towards all the OW of the world! I'm continuing to work through my anger with her as you can tell!!

Mimi, so far I haven't found anything that I think that you should edit so here is the link for you, for Christine and people like Lunamare should read it.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=37;t=023809

It has been extremely helpful to me but I understand when you say you don't want to read it. I used to write a diary when I was young and when I moved out I burned them all. Afterwards I wrote 5 or 6 times in 18 years in a diary I was given just after getting married and when I tried to read those notes, it was horrible.

But you have no idea how helpfulit is to read the day by day feelings and emotions you were going thru and all the wonderful advice and help you were given. I really have all the answers to my doubts and questions in those posts, but I haven't finished yet.

more to follow tonight or maybe tomorrow

christine, have you found it?

Enjoy

Mimi,

The things that really helped me from your story are the following (no special order)

1. Secrecy â€“ WH keeps the A secret now! Some co workers have told me that they donâ€™t think the A is ongoing because now they arrive separately to work! When I am sure that they are NOW actually living together.I was told she moved in in february. Proof of that is that he hasnâ€™t invited his DDs to his place although he has driven right by and pointed it out to them. Originally he told them that it was a 2 bedroom place so that they could go sleepover but he has never taken them there and even left them alone in the house a couple of times I was away, which is very strange behaviour for him. He never wanted to leave them alone before and OW actually house sat for us! His mother complains he never even gave her the address.
But your WH did the same. So the secrecy may be due to guilt. How long will OW stand this? Iâ€™ve planted that seed into some co workers head. Also Iâ€™ve been told that OWâ€™s mother now wants to keep secret the fact that OW is not living at home anymore! Weird! If I were having an A (and it should have been me,sigh) I would not be ashamed at this point when everyone knows!

2. WH becomes nice during plan A. Before d day he had been increasingly detached and then angry at me and finally he acted as though he hated me! After d day he was very nice and considerate, wanted to buy me a new car (didnâ€™t unfortunately) did buy me a freezer which I didnâ€™t want. He would always hug me before going to sleep. I guess he felt relieved but he never talked about R or A, actually refused to. That is a difference with your WH which makes me think that my plan B will be much longer.

3. I was also afraid he might get angry with me for changing things etc. In fact I think he was furious with plan B and that made him close our joint account and he now has control of all the money. Unfortunately I donâ€™t make enough to live but this new job will let me make more. In spite of all this he has continued to pay all the expenses and has even sent me some cash! He is very generous and has barely complained. I noticed that there werenâ€™t any expenses of his on the ccs, this is probably due to the fact that he doesnâ€™t want me to know where he spends money with OW eating out etc and probably has been going on for a long time. Last week he sent me an e mail saying he had changed the address where the cc statements are sent so that I donâ€™t have to send them to him anymore. The reason is probably so that I canâ€™t see what heâ€™s spending. Brilliant!

4. OW is 32 and has been his secretary/assistant for about 6 or 7 years. Her M did not marry as far as I know and has these 2 illegitimate girls. OW has been known to sleep with MM before, I knew that. She is the â€œpredatorâ€ kind looking to get some wealthy guy and has actually stated that â€œshe has plans and no one is going to get in her wayâ€. There is a lot of promiscuity in that family. Her godchild and another sibling live with OW and family during the week and see their parents on the weekend. OW pays for an upscale private school for her godchild but not the sibling!!!!!! Now I guess the mother is taking care of them.

Iâ€™m a good cook, OW has no idea. Apparently she is taking English classes now! I am trilingual, I speak English Spanish and French. Iâ€™m a professional, an MD and very respected in my specialty. OW is nothingâ€¦.. Apparently she is starting a university career NOW, although she pretended to study before.

Oh and OWâ€™s mother is into wicthcraft, voodoo that kind of stuff!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

5. WH has left most of his clothes and stuff at home. About 1 month after leaving he came and took his pants but left his shoes and ties and all his winter clothes, his perfumes etc.. I put it all in one wardrobe, his 100 + ties in a bag and stuck it in his wardrobe, together with his papers and anything else I could find. Itâ€™s been 2 Â½ months and he hasnâ€™t come to get it.

6. Must have bought all new furniture for his new place in spite of the fact that I told him that he could take what he wanted.

Lots of similarities, huh? And the fact that heâ€™s not the only one who does these things is very illuminating.

On the other hand there are some differences, like the fact that he did not talk practically and refused to discuss separation etc. But I think he is much more confused than others here. The other day he called DD and asked her for HIS OWN MOTHERâ€™s PHONE NUMBER. He has called his mother twice a day at that number FOR YEARS! And it was true that he didnâ€™t remember it because 2 min after that first call he called back and told DD he must have misunderstood the number, could she repeat it. This worries me. I have actually been worried about his mental state since all this began. I think he has a clinical depression maybe MLC that has been going on for a couple of years.

MIL is on my side and cannot understand WH. In the end I didnâ€™t send him the card for our wedding anniversary but I did remind MIL in case she talked to him.
During these 2 months and Â½ I have not seen him except for the day he took my bank card back when he closed the joint account. I have only received 2 notes and a few e mails with reference to payments or the likes.

Yet lately he seems to call DDs more often and has spent more time with them.

In 10 days Iâ€™ll be starting my new job. I will have a lot of responsibility and there are good chances that I will have to travel. This is very good for me. I am hopeful that I will be able to keep my plan B dark, but Iâ€™m a little worried that it is too dark! I am still in withdrawal from WH! Canâ€™t imagine talking to him yetâ€¦ it still hurts too much. And I only get angry for very short periods of time. Sadness prevailsâ€¦.

So what do you think my chances are? Advice is welcome from all...
I have promised myself to remain in plan B for a year, until next Xmas. So far he has made it seem easy because he has respected my wishes but it is very hard on me, I still live in this limbo of faking it. I hate what he is doing to us, but mostly to himself. I don;t feel any respect for him anymore... at least not the WS but I don't see DH anywhere.

I have lots of helpful advice but no time tonight.

I'm pretty sure this won't last a year!!

Look for my post tomorrow morning around 9:00 AM EST here.

[ March 17, 2005, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]

I don't pot my sitch much because I don't think there is anything I can do .... but if you have any advice I'm anxiously waiting to hear from you.

I ahve some meetings but will try to connect a little after 9 (that is 1 pm for me).

I must add that everyone says that OW screams and shouts at WH, which is something I never used to do. So I suppose he is very addicted and will have trouble getting away. He has never been violent with me but who knows what their R is like.

I hopewhat Mortarman told you about us having like a vault where we put our feelings in is true. This is so emotionally draining...

Anyway, Thank you for taking the time to read and I'll check later for your advice.

CC:

Your situation is amazingly like mine. This is definitely some sort of syndrome someone probably has written up somewhere. Powerful middle-aged man in a longterm marriage meets up with younger woman from another class/educational level who turns his life around and can lead to his destruction, married to an upwardly mobile, intelligent wife. YUK!!

I think I can help by sharing what I have learned from my H now about what he was doing and what he has been able to share about the nature of his R with the OW.

One thing is for sure. THIS IS NOT A NORMAL, HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP! We cannot apply our logic and understanding to it! The relationship is "sick"! Apply all adjectives that you associate with this. Think of a relationship that is characterized by uncontrolled passion, unbridled emotion or whatever. That's them!

So we have the issue of SECRECY. Yes, guilt is a major factor. Why? Who would want anybody to know the true nature of such a sick relationship? H seems so embarassed by stuff that has happened between them and stuff they did. I don't think it's at a level that we can comprehend or would be able to stomach. About the secrecy, you asked this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> How long will OW stand this? Iâ€™ve planted that seed into some co workers head. Also Iâ€™ve been told that OWâ€™s mother now wants to keep secret the fact that OW is not living at home anymore! Weird! If I were having an A (and it should have been me,sigh) I would not be ashamed at this point when everyone knows!
<hr /></blockquote>First of all, you tried to apply your own healthy, logic to this. You say, "If I were having an A.... Don't do this as I indicated above. Your logic doesn't apply here. This is why the R will not last! Your H will return to you in order to try to regain his sanity. Listen to this. My H actually told me that the OW wanted to MAINTAIN THE SECRECY. I thought it was him. He got to the point of wanting to legitimize what he was doing because he was starting to feel crazy. The fact that she wanted to maintain the secrecy scared him. At the beginning of our recovery, all he talked about was how wonderful it was to be NORMAL again, to be out in society again. SO SECRECY IS A GOOD THING! THIS WILL BE A MAJOR PART OF THE DEATH SENTENCE.

I think that there is a need to maintain the fantasy so that he will not see the real her. She does not know how to have a real, normal R with him. So, she will have to be everything to him and she will have to maintain the fantasy. SHE WILL FAIL! H said that he came to REALIZE THAT IT WAS ALL BS! That she was pretending, that she was playing a game, that she was not who she claimed to be. He will begin to long for you and the real world and will be held prisoner in a world with her!

You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I guess he felt relieved but he never talked about R or A, actually refused to. That is a difference with your WH which makes me think that my plan B will be much longer.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't remember my H doing this. He tried to talk me out of my PLAN A, not wanting to believe that it was real, not wanting to believe that my changes would last, wanting to justify his A to himself. I remember that type of conversation early on. I don't know how long your PLAN B will last but remember this. TIME IS ON YOUR SIDE. The more time he has with her alone without your presence the better. He will begin to see the real her!! Certainly their R will not last!! NO WAY!!!!

You say:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />In spite of all this he has continued to pay all the expenses and has even sent me some cash! <hr /></blockquote>Just like my FWH, he continues to consider you to be his wife. She is the OW. You also mentioned how he wanted to buy you a car, bought the freezer. Wow, your H is my H! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That is his connection with you. He is still connected. He knows that he is out there playing with her. He just doesn't know how to get disconnected and find his way back home. It's funny to me now. I know folks who do not have Rs like ours, CC, may not understand this next sentence but.... OW is still driving her shabby car; my FWH could have bought her a new one but he didn't. He bought me a new car prior to coming home. He now drives that car and since that time has bought me a newer one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Like you say, the car is not that important to me. It's what he likes to do. Gives him an ego trip to say to himself, "I bought MY WIFE a car. He knows that you are his wife and she is a tramp!!

You say about the OW:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She is the â€œpredatorâ€ kind looking to get some wealthy guy and has actually stated that â€œshe has plans and no one is going to get in her wayâ€. <hr /></blockquote>She does not have a clue about Rs and M. You are getting in her way, for sure. What she wants you to do is to go away and to give up on your H. She wants you to start dating and move on..... Like I said before, he will get to know her. My H began to dislike the fact that OW was such a poor mother. He couldn't understand how she could abandon her daughter for him. The narcissist side of him liked it but, having his own children, he knew it was wrong. Again, my H is like yours. He did not like our boys to have babysitters. He wanted me to be there for them. SO THE OTHER
PART OF THE DEATH SENTENCE IS HER CHARACTER. He will begin to question her about how she is treating her children. He will try to reeducate her and she will not listen or understand.

Also this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Apparently she is starting a university career NOW, although she pretended to study before <hr /></blockquote>Just like the OW in my case. You know what she's trying to do, don't you? She's trying to be you. A friend of mine made me aware of this. Just like my friend told me: "She will never be able to catch up with you". What is happening, CC, is this. He is trying to make her into you. He is asking her to cook the meals that you cook. He is trying to involve her in intellectual conversations and she is trying to pretend that she understands what he is talking about. I'm laughing now as I type this. My FWH instructed the OW to read the newspaper each day so that he could talk to her about the news in the evenings. He tried to get her to begin to read books. Laughable isn't it? She will fail miserably.......Don't you see why she wants to maintain the fantasy world?

I can hardly believe that about your H's clothes. It is exactly the same pattern as my H. It means that he plans to come back home. Is there some way you can shake this up some? My H became fearful when he realized that home might not be there anymore. Selling the house was a real turning point.

HIS MENTAL STATE: It is the fog, addiction, whatever you want to call it. Probably the drug is beginning not to work and he is struggling to get the sensation back. You know like when an alcoholic keeps going on binges. He is out of control now for sure. You are not there to offer him stability and sanity. My H is just now becoming normal again. Just think of him as being TEMPORARILY INSANE. He is not thinking logically, is delusional and feels out of control.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yet lately he seems to call DDs more often and has spent more time with them <hr /></blockquote>You see, trying to get some hold on reality. He probably asks them about you and what's going on at the house. His time with them will also put him in touch with the fact that you are his wife and hold his history and, most importantly, he will get in touch with what a poor mother the OW is.

Don't be worried about your PLAN B being too dark. I think your new job and traveling is great! He will wonder about what you are doing. He will be concerned that you will not be there waiting for him like he hopes.

Remmeber his plan is to do this as long as he has to and as long as he can.

More later. Have to go to do some work now.

I'm back to finish up with my thoughts thus far.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I am still in withdrawal from WH! Canâ€™t imagine talking to him yetâ€¦ it still hurts too much. And I only get angry for very short periods of time. Sadness prevailsâ€¦.
<hr /></blockquote>Oh, CC! I really feel for you. How can you not be sad? It's so awful what has happened to you, to us? I didn't know sometimes how I would make it. I just keep going on steam. Sometimes it all gets to me even now. It gets better and better each day. However, this has been a major life trauma that no should ever have to go through. I think it has made me a stronger and better person. However, I can't help but ask why I had to go through this to get to this place. You've read about the stuff that I did and experienced. I couldn't bear to read through it.

I know his R with her will not last! That's for sure. She's undoubtably a nut and a sleaze like the FOW in my case. The question is will he be able to get back home to you? Will your DH resurface and return before he destroys himself?

Keep moving forward, CC. Be the best you that you can be. Focus in on your job and any new interests or travels that have been intriguing to you. Like Georgia and his pottery and his new house.....

I did find it was helpful to continue to EXPOSE the A as much as you can. Selectively tell those who won't use it to hurt you that your H has left you for another woman. They may not say anything to him but he will feel the stares and the avoidance of people who used to interact with him. Some people may say things to him directly. I walked boldly around in the community while he had to stay SECLUDED WITH HER. Remember that is a good thing.

Mimi, you made me cry <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

thank you for your thoughts. I was really astounded at the similarities when I read your thread. I would read day by day and think Mimi has been holding on for 2 weeks, 3 weeks etc. Of course I am living those days.... but things are getting better.

Today I went to introduce myself at the new job I will be starting in a week, because this coming week is a holiday here. Everyone was so glad to see me, and even people I did not know had heard of me... It was an awesome experience. I know they are expecting a lot from me and that there is a lot to do, and that's the kind of job I like. A challenge! So hopefully I will be so busy I can forget WH for a while.

This coming week DDs are off to different places. I will be going to the beach with the dog ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) and willprobably come back wednesday. Some people work until wed and have the rest of the week off. WH told DDs that he is "staying" because he has to work, but his office is open only until tuesday I think.

I don't think I mentioned that part of WH's office is at home, and he has people who come to work here everyday. Tomorrow he's having lunch with DDs and they will tell him that he has to come open the door for his employees on mon and tues at least. I'm sure he will look around the house and maybe take some more of his stuff. Do you think I should leave SAA in sight?

I have already let Dd's know so that they can tell him that once I start the new job I won't be coming to open the door and although I have a maid who says she will do it she'snot always here. On the other hand I have told Dds it is not our problem and they have started putting pressure on him to get that part of the office out. He has a place for them to move, has had it for a long time but he stalls because he doesn't want all these people around. Nor does OW. All of these people are on my side.This could turn out to be something similar to your selling the house! Dds want that space for themselves, so they are interested in him moving his office out too.

I know you are right in everything you say. You have lived it and survived. I hope I can one day confirm it for my sake, yours and all the other people we could help.

Now about his being insane, I hope it reverts. It's scary the way he acts sometimes.

I'll be on for a few hours now. There is such a huge time difference...
And our situations are so similar!
It's really incredible.

[ March 18, 2005, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: cc46 ]

I'm so happy for you and your new job. It certainly will help with the self-esteem as you've already discovered!

You asked about your H's visit to the house:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm sure he will look around the house and maybe take some more of his stuff. Do you think I should leave SAA in sight?
<hr /></blockquote>Is there a way for you to lock the rest of the house so that he can't go around at will. I don't think that's a good idea. He especially should not have access to your bedroom. Can you put a lock on the door before you leave? As you will read in my stuff, like Mortarman used to tell me, he's got to FEEL THE PAIN. I remember my H going into his closet as if to get a hold on reality. Your H probably will do this and those occasions prolong the A just a bit longer. He says to himself, my home is still here waiting for me, I can go on with this a bit longer. Reading SAA is useless for him until he gets out of the fog. My H insisted that it didn't appy to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

As I read further, why haven't you insisted that he get the office out? Give him a time frame. What do you think? Are you able to come to his house at will?

You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />He has a place for them to move, has had it for a long time but he stalls because he doesn't want all these people around. Nor does OW <hr /></blockquote>I think he wants to keep a place for himself in the house. Continued cake-eating, keeping an eye on you, making it known that this continues to be his house!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Dds want that space for themselves, so they are interested in him moving his office out too.
<hr /></blockquote>I would proceed with plans to make this a space for your daughters. I was going to suggest that you think of reason that you need the space. Here it is. Let him know about the plans and when the renovations will begin.

GET THE KEY FROM HIS ASAP or CHANGE THE LOCKS so that he always has to be let in until he has to move out.

The similarities are almost unbelievable. It must be some aspect of human nature that we are speaking about or maybe this was meant to be. I don't know what your religious beliefs are but I am thinking maybe GOD brought us together.

One of my best friends in high school was from Guatemala and lives there.

Thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately I can't lock the house up at least this time because I leave before DDs who will be staying here until sunday, but I may lock my room up, so he will wonder why.

I will also bring up the subject of downstairs more often so dds put some pressure on him to move and tell a friend who works for him in that area to do the same.

I also have to empty his nighttable. I will do that tonight, so he has no valid excuse for wanting anything out of the bedroom.

BTW, you have to get a map. I'm way south.....
Had to edit. I doubt anyone else from here reads on MB but you never know.... we tend to find people from this country in the strangest places.

Anyway, at this moment I am just looking forward to my trip. I will enjoy.

Thanks again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

cc46

Many congratulations on your new position. I just know that you are really going to enjoy every minute of it.

I have read you posts including Mimis thread of her terrible time 03. It so does sound like your stitch.

She is so good at her analogy of situations just keep on listening to her.

You have my heartfelt wishes on the road map of life.

I am fine i take baby steps each day. Unfortunatly this professional disentanglement is a slow process sometimes i wish my WH OW was not so educated. You see of course that i still call him WH as until the NC is established i dont trust anything. All actions are positive at the moment.

On another note I just love the sea so am very envious of your ability to just go and stay there. Take lots of good books want watch the waves they go up and down like our lives.

Hi mimi, I hope you and family are well awasome year 03 I dont think it was a good year for a vintage red though. I do enjoy a good glass ( of friends would say more) of red.

Take care now will be back to talk after the weekend.

Luv ya

Do you think I should leave SAA in sight?

NOPE..
you should leave a big bouquet of flowers with a card that says...it was nice talking with you..

and you should print out some info on some vactation spots...and leave them on the counter as well...

ARK

[ March 19, 2005, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]

Thanks for your suggestion Ark. I got it when I had already left but I did leave my room locked and I'm sure that if he does go in the house he will be very confused by that. In the end it seems he has not taken Dds to lunch but they are meeting him at 4.

Dds don't say much about their encounters with him. Maybe to protect me. But it is strange that he should spend a sat afternoon with them. Before they were spent with OW afterall, now that they live together they spend all day working. So they only have the evenings and the weekends, but maybe things aren't so good in lalaland anymore.

Anyway, I'm at the beach, the weather is wonderful although a bit cool. We are in autumn after all.

I do have to have more fresh flowers around the house, but these last few days have been really crazy. Crazy but nice.
Thanks Dying for your thoughts and wishes. I only wish that they could include good news from you. I don't really know where you are in your R with WH. What is happening? You don't sound very convinced.

Anyway, I will enjoy these days off.... but will check in here twice a day.

cc

cc-

I just wanted to change things up a bit and post on your thread for a change.

As you already know, Mimi will help you with your plan. I have found it incredibly important to have a plan or else you just feel like you're being whipped in the WS breeze with no direction in your life other than being victimized.

Plan B has been such a bittersweet experience for me. The lonesomeness of it all can be overbearing as both S's are now married and gone. Jeb has been a big help to me (but you already know about the dog thing).

But....not having to deal with WW every moment of every day has brought some peace to my life, and I suspect you too have already discovered this.

I am so sorry that you are having to participate in this Greek tragedy (Mimi's words) along with the rest of us, but I appreciate your friendship and kind words. You are obviously a strong woman and are doing a good job of holding yourself together. (Trilingual, WOW!!! I still struggle with English!).

Congrats on your new job, I know you will do well. I am in an engineering management position and I have 2 new engineers working for me, one here in GA and one in TX. It is a challenge to get them up and running on our stuff while living in a soap opera, but it does keep me occupied.

Georgia

[ March 21, 2005, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]

Back from a few days at the beach. I had a good timw although the weather wasn't very nice but at least I was busy finding things to do and didn't think constantly of WH which is a huge relief.

Georgia, I had missed your post in my quick check ups of MB. Sorry. Plan B is what keeps me going. I must say that without a plan I would have gone crazy. Now I have to convince myself that I am in a plan which I have to stick to at least a year.

Patience is not one of my virtues but when I think back to the torture plan A was, and how I managed to be patient for 2months I find the strength to face more plan B. Sadness is what overwhelms me. I was driving back with the dog and stopped for lunch. And I thought: this should be WH, the dog and I. Sad.
BTW, I think you mentioned you'd like to take the transcanadian train across Canada. I took it twic and it does run from Vancouver to Toronto, so you may have to get off before the destination. But it is really worth it, whatever the weather is. Fabulous experience. They have a chef on board so meals are wonderful.

Mimi, I need you to give me some comforting! While I was away I had locked my room. WH has taken most of the stuff I had put in his closet. Some is still left, but he's taken most of it. Could it be that he got angry because the bedroom door was locked? Should we just ignore this?

I read the thread Diary of a madman and found some comfort, but it seems so difficult to get out of the A... Not sure everybody manages to...

I would have joined in bashing your FOW if I had had a good connection , sorry. Maybe we can bash my OW one of these days.

Hope to hear from you guys soon, although I know GG is away for a couple of days.

Hi CC:

I think it's wonderful that you were brave enough to go to the beach on your own. In the long run, that is going to be such a "growth experience" for you although you don't realize it right now.

You asked:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Could it be that he got angry because the bedroom door was locked? Should we just ignore this?
<hr /></blockquote>I really wouldn't worry about whether he is angry or not. He might have gotten angry but that's not a bad thing. Remember, he needs to "feel" pain. Anger is included in "feeling pain". My H might have taken his stuff if given the opportunity.

I think you can feel secure in knowing that these As hardly ever last. If he does not reconcile with you, he most likely will not end up with her. I firmly believe that it's a "sick" relationship based purely on "fantasy", like I've said before.

Sorry you missed the OW bashing. It felt good. I do hope that we get a chance to trash your OW. I think we will!

Mimi, that was fast! I wrote a long answer and it disappeared!

Anyway WH took most of his stuff from the closet, but not all. He also hasn't taken his wine collection. I can't imagine where he'sputting all this stuff... but none of my business.

Luckily I have a lunch invitation this friday with a girl friend who works for WH but is my friend. She has a neighbour who I met at her birthday party who is a very interesting 50ish divorced guy, and he will probably be there. So I'm looking forward to this lunch. Some male company is appreciated. I know, no dating.

Monday I start the new job and since there is a lot to do I will be very busy and probably won't think as much as I usually do about the A and WH.

Sunday I'll have an Easter Tea and invite my mother and aunts and MIL and her friends over. I hope DDs will be back so we will have some sort of family reunion.
So I have to cook a dessert for friday and a few things for tea on sunday. Meantime I have to read stuff for the job.

and wait..... I'm alone for the next few days.

I have never posted to you before but I thought I would try to help you. I don't know if you can get any use out of this thread or not but I thought I would post it to you anyway. This is the Plan B thread that was here when I was in Plan B and they all helped me so much. I am hoping that it can help you and that I did this link thing right.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=024697;p=22#000322

HINY

Thanks a lot Hopeful. It's not easy being in plan B, not knowing what will happen and having to have so much patience and pretend to get on with your life. It took me quite a few hours to find Mimi's plan B thread but I'm so glad I did and that Mimi is still around to help. I guess when recovery happens people can't stand to come and read about all the pain here, sometimes it's even too painful for me. I don't think Mimi could stand to read her own plan B thread, nor would I ever wish this on anyone else.

I've been hearing about other peoples R and As and I have also come to the conclusion that the people here on MB are part of the special group of people who really believe in Marriage, because there are lots of people out there who don't seem to suffer that much or even care. They just get on with their lives, divorce and find somebody else. I don't think they are ever really truly happy, but it's a way of life for them. We hope for something better from our marriages and ourselves.

I'm rambling. I guess I think about all this too much... Thanks. I'll download that thread to read.

Plan B is really hard but it does get easier. When I was in Plan B I didn't think that was true and everyone kept on telling me that. And it really did get easier. In fact I loved it after a while. No worries, no dinners just me and my kids, it was awesome.

Anyway I hope it helps to see what others have done and said during plan B.

I can't read the thread myself. I just makes me cry to think about how much pain I was actually in during that time. I have come a long way, but it is not perfect and I don't think it will ever be honestly.

PEP had the greatest advice for me when I was Plan Bing. My WH would come to visit with DS3 and I would leave the house so he could come here, my mother was the intermediary. PEP had these really great ideas for me like make great meals and leave them in the fridge so he would have something good for lunch to eat and think of me. And I hung lingerie in the bathroom over the shower curtain rod so he would see it. I got down and dirty once and left a little note with a phone number on it and a guys name even. And another time I left an unused, unopened condom on the bathroom sink with a bar ticket and some left over change. I did the best things to irritate him and I had fun doing it really. It was like my own little secret way of hurting him just a little for the monsterous hole in my heart.

I have come to the conclusion that life is what you make it. You can go through life being dependent on someone or stand up tall and get on with life. As soon as I started to get on with life, he wanted to get on with life with me. That is usually how it happens.

Good luck to you and I hope the thread helps you.

If not you will probably get some laughs out of it.

HINY

Thanks for your help. I was having problems getting into the forum, so I want to let you know that IÂ´ll be reading and when we get connected again saturday will let you know how it helped.

Thanks again.

We're back!!! Thank God. I can't believe it has been 5 days, seems more like months.

Just to update, I came home wednesday from the beach having spent a few wonderful carefree days without thinking much of the situation. Saturday was terrible! I guess that's why it's called a rollercoaster, right?
Anyway sunday I had a family Easter tea. We all had a good time, including MIL.
Monday I started my new job and have had such a great response from people my self esteem is coming back. Being Busy helps alot.

Quickly saying HI! I keep getting logged off in trying to post to you.

To heck with plan A and B. I'm DONE!!!!!
So why not do Plan B?

So, any advice on how I should proceed with my life as a single mom?
Uh, yeah. DON’T proceed in life a single mom.
Go to Plan B.

We are still under the same roof, as he has no job right now and no place to go and I can't kick him out on the street with no place to go.
Why not? What’s he gonna do when you sell the house?

Thanks Mimi. I don't have a problem keeping myself logged in but I use Mozilla now. Problem is I don't quite have the hang of the program and haven't had much time because I was at work although I woke up at 4:00 a m this morning and spent 3 hours trying to understand it. Of course at that hour (1 am in USA) there wasn't anyone on MB. and no updates.

the job is very stressful and I don't have a very good internet connection. I was at my boss's computer waiting for a meeting to start and posting to Georgia when the boss walked in and I had to close the page!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

anyway, things will get better. No important news on WH. He spent the easter holidays at the beach house (probably with OW)but didn't tell anyone he was going.It's all still secret.

Going to read updates now.

Just saying hello. Hope you enjoyed your vacation and are doing well at your new job. I have not had a chance to read your thread yet. Still trying to figure out the new look of this site and keep getting logged off.

Will chat/post more later.

Love of a lifetime

Hi CC:

You said this on Georgia's thread:

Quote

THis plan B could go on forever, WH is very stubborn and OW seems to enjoy anonimity and secrecy, so who knows how long they will last, and even if they don{t, I truly beelieve that OW is just a symptom, if not her (although she did alot to be OW, too much effort for what she has received in my opinion) it would probably have been somebody else, or no one.

Remember that the anonymity and silence does not mean that it will go on forever. It is a good thing which may mean that it ends sooner than you think. If he brings her out in the open, it means that he is giving her a place in his real life. Now she remains part of the fog, his fantasy life. This is a life that cannot continue in the real world. Make sense?

I admire your apathy regarding the OW.

Mimi Goddess!!!!!!!

I hope so much you are right and that MM is right when he says one puts one'slove in a safe place because I'm not feeling very kind towards WH at this moment. He went for 4 days to the beach house without telling anyone he was going until he had been there a couple of days and called Dds to ask if they needed anything.

Then he invited them to dinner on tuesday but at 9 pm called them to say he "was too tired" and that they better leave it for yesterday wednesday. Last night he told them that friday he's traveling to USA for 10 days to go to a course!!! dd 3 was really pissed. I mean he must know he's going for a while now. and I was really pissed because there is some smelly stuff from his job he had to pick up about 3 weeks ago and he hasn't done it. Would it be very wrong of me to take it to his office on monday?

Anyway, as you may have noticed I am soooooo busy that I barely have time to think of him. I don't want to think about all this at all!!!!!! It's horrible. What if the A does end and he wanted to come back? It's so inconvenient at this moment because of my job but on the other hand my M is more important although I may not be feeling too happy about it now. See how terrible this is. Better not to think.

Update: Wh did come by friday morning and took the smelly stuff, and also sent me a check with double the amount he usually gives me on the 10th of each month. So that was considerate of him. BUT I am nearly sure that he has taken OW on the trip although everything is secret.

I can see why it's best not to know anything. I feel terrible. 3 months of plan B and the hurt, the pain doesn't go away. Because of my DDs I will always find out about these things and how long will they continue to hurt????

Please someone remind me why this is worth it.

Sorry. Don't have much time to post.

He is doing the STANDARD SCRIPT.

A good sign that he left you the money.

Also the trip is really a good thing. She will fail when he tries to make her into you. It's the beginning of the end for them!!

I hope you are right. one thing i know for sure: it is the beginning of the end for me. I don't think I can take much more of this. soon i'm really not going to care anymore, because I can't afford to. and then there will be no forgiveness. I am already questioning my ever even considering the possibility of trusting him ever again, and without honesty and trust i can't have a relationship.

thanks for answering Mimi. i had forced myself to go to the movies. I saw Bridget Jones. it's fun.
but quite a few triggers too.

Quote

I don't think I can take much more of this. soon i'm really not going to care anymore, because I can't afford to. and then there will be no forgiveness. I am already questioning my ever even considering the possibility of trusting him ever again, and without honesty and trust i can't have a relationship.

I think that this is a phase that you are going through to deal with the pain of him going on the trip.

What do you think?

What is so different to have made you change to this point of view?

I can't say that this will be true for you. But, my FWH took the OW on trips to try to regain the thrill and fun of the A. He took her on a trip to the beach just prior to trying to reconcile with me. It didn't work for them. Your WH is probably not getting the "high" he is craving from leading a normal, day-to-day life with her.

Does she speak English? Has she been to the States before?

Another question: how long has there A lasted as far as you know?

You can do this, CC! How about some new hobbies?

Yes Mimi, it is a way of managing the pain of knowing he has taken her on the trip. Do you really think that someday he will be able to be honest and open with me again? As time goes by I see that more and more difficult.

As far as I know the EA has probably been going on for a long time but the PA according to WH started in august 04. I had asked him in september and he denied, then on d day he said he had only lied to me once (september) and that in march when I asked him the A hadn't started. But he may have been referring to actually going away and living with her as he was doing by that time and obviously I'm sure he wasn't referring to an EA which existed before that. After that he would answer with a yes or no the few times I asked a question and said "there was nothing to talk about, everything had been decided". In my experience with WH he was never truthful with others (including family) but he was with me. After d day he went for a weekend with OW and I was advised here to confront him about it. When I asked him if he had gone with her he answered " don't make me answer because I don't want to hurt you". When I insisted he said he had. So I do believe he has difficulty lying to my face. Ommission is his favorite method and OW is very very secret about everything, even stupid things. If you like, the funny thing about this secrecy mania is that they are each keeping the other secret too, now. He keeps the A secret from family and co workers and she has too, except that her family who was obviously involved in the whole affair, now wants to deny everything about the A and keep secret that she is living with WH. It's obvious this cannot go on for too long.

No, OW doesn't speak english but started taking classes in january or february, probably when they decided to take this trip, which would also explain why they cancelled their vacations in february. With a friend we laughed at the image of OW sitting in the hotel room trying to watch TV in english...in secret, but they probably have some spanish TV too.

Mimi, I don't know how you did it. I hate the lies and deceit and secrecy. And of course that is exactly what they use. I can't imagine ever believing anything WH says or does again. I have never lived in secrecy, lies and deceit and never plan to, but that is their way of life. How can a person choose that kind of life and then want honesty and transparency again? How could I ever trust this person again?

In the beginning, the words here and in the books convinced me that whatever happened (and there were many horrible actions done by WS) recovery is possible. But as time goes by, I get weaker and can't imagine myself recoverng this marriage. Plan B is a life saver, because it's true that the less you know , the less you are hurt. But I keep hurting as much as at the beginning and now I'm losing hope. And I have embraced Plan B, remember I have not talked to him or seen him. Guess the only way to try to keep strong is to get busy and try to know the less possible about the A so as not to be hurt.

I started crying yesterday and I can tell that today is going to be one of those days I will have difficulty controlling it. But I'll try.

Another big problem here is that I cannot share all this with anyone. At the tea party I went on friday both a friend and her 80 year old mother told me to get a divorce, and to start dating now. I tried to explain why that wasn't a good idea and maybe they sort of understood, but I wish I had more support and not having to defend my actions. My BIL even said that this sitch was my fault too because I kicked WH out! So I had to explain that what I had really done was set him free to continue his A without being forced to be a part of it. He also understood that part. NOBODY has said, wait, recovery is possible. Among my circle of friends and acquaintances I am becoming something like a freak because I openly talk about WH's A when asked. Everyone has a story about friends who separated and eventually got back together but "they never knew if there was an A involved". People don't like to talk about As. Lots of denial and fear.

Anyway, I guess I needed to vent. I will go cook (dds have complained that there's no food at home) and then go to church. Take the dog out for a walk and do some work.

Thanks for answering so promptly Mimi. Your answer came at 1:47 am for me, so after venting here I went to bed and tried to sleep. Lately I'm sleeping little.

Guess the trip did make it one of the bad days.
And there are signs that he still respects me (sending the money, taking his stuff).

CC:

Your situation and feelings are no different than mine was.

I really used to feel the exact same way that you do.

I have a lot to say in response to your post. FWH, whom I thought that I could never trust again (you hear me?) wants my almost constant attention. Don't have much time on the weekends.

I think you are responding to the trip. You already know yourself that this is a test that she will fail. However, it is extremely painful for you that he is taking her.

I think that you need to EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE as much as you can. ROB THEM OF THEIR SECRECY!

He more than respects you. He is trying to give you a signal that he is holding onto you by giving you the money. I guarantee you that he will want to come back. I've got to help you be ready for that. I believe in your marriage!

Thanks Mimi. I guess I am down today but tomorrow will be better. It helps that somebody believes in my marriage, because as I said before, most everyone has reacted sort of implying that I have enough reasons to get a divorce, even my in laws although they didn't come out and say it. They support me.

one of the things that is always at the back of my mind is that NOONE has ever mentioned things that could be my fault, so I just feel guilty but not knowing what for. I know I didn't admire him enough but it is also true that he would not accept my admiration. I think he felt threatened by me and never wanted me to be a part of his professionallife, although he would tell others and me how capable I was and always encouraged me in my career. So how can I be at fault when he wouldn't let me? I now know I should have tried to talk to him about it and not just "given him space" about it. I know I am a conflict avoider, now and will work on that.

Last week I even asked my BIL in an email to tell me what he perceived could be my faults in this marriage, but he hasn't answered so I guess he doesn't really have a strong position on that.

I'm glad you tell me to expose, because I have been a little worried about continuing to expose because during plan B it has been said that it is regarded as vengeance. But in this case where they are keeping everything secret and I have the impression that most think that it was just a one time PA which is over, I feel the need to tell the truth. Last week I told BIL they were living together and he tried to convince me that I was wrong, but maybe finally he accepted it and changed his position.

Anyway, I know you don't post much on weekends so I won't expect you to, and if I don't answer quickly on weekedays it's because at work I have rarely been able to read a whole post in one go, much less write one. But at least I'm busy.

Thanks Mimi.

I also found that I couldn't find support from family and friends. REALLY! If I had listened to them, I would have been divorced.

You have to talk to other people who have been touched by infidelity either here or in your real life.

I'll have to stick to here because nobody has admitted to me that they have been touched except for my friend's 80 yr old mother who said she had 2 friends who had been touched and then had better marriages.

have to go cook

Hi CC:

You asked:

Quote

Do you really think that someday he will be able to be honest and open with me again?

Yes. When and if he wants to reconcile, he will be committed to evidencing his sincerity. Commitment to honesty and openness will be part of the recovery process. You will insist upon this and he will comply. I say it all or the time, "I need for you to be honest with me". It will become one of your life mantras.

Do you mind sharing what D-Day was like? Did you find him with her?

I still think the secrecy is a good thing. He probably hates it. They can't continue to live like that! That's the point of the trip. They want some freedom.

You said:

Quote

I can't imagine ever believing anything WH says or does again. I have never lived in secrecy, lies and deceit and never plan to, but that is their way of life. How can a person choose that kind of life and then want honesty and transparency again? How could I ever trust this person again?

My FWH on his own is very repentful and ashamed of what he did. Without me even asking, he tells me his whereabouts, tells me about unexplained calls to his cell.... He is clearly pained by it all. Your H will prove to you that he is committed to RECOVERY. You will know when he is serious about it.

It does not feel good to him having to live with his lies, deceitfulness and secrecy. That's why his continuation of it is good. He is certainly beginning to feel pain about this. You should feel concerned if he comes out in the open with the A.

I admire you, CC. I found the entire time period of PLAN B to be extremely painful. However, I grew as a person immensely from the pain that I was feeling. I understand you wanting to give up. However, I honestly don't feel like your situation is hopeless. I think he will want to come back. The question is, will you still want him? That is the greatest danger. That OW will surely fail this test. She can't even speak English! He's trying to get the thrill again with her. He will go on this trip and think of you. I'm sure of that! You have the history. She only has the present with him. She has to constantly try to create thrills. She will run out of magic tricks!

You said:

Quote

Among my circle of friends and acquaintances I am becoming something like a freak because I openly talk about WH's A when asked. Everyone has a story about friends who separated and eventually got back together but "they never knew if there was an A involved". People don't like to talk about As. Lots of denial and fear.

This must be human nature. This certainly was true for me and my culture is as different from yours as can be!! Don't feel like a freak because of talking about the A! Talk about it openly as much as possible. You want them to feel uncomfortable with their secrecy!

Oh my God I just cant get the hang of this new board.
My password does not work on a temporary one.
I KEEP GETTING LOGGED OUT.
The kids are on holiday and i cant post hardly atall they are on the computer.

I am here I am thinking of you.
Good luck with the new job.
Stay busy dont think about WH trip Mimi is right she will fail he will get irritated with her.

My saga goes on drama drama drama will post properly soon probably have to get up in the middle of the night though but hey it will be on day time in the US LOL

I think we all have to follow a process of how we reach peace within ourselfs some get there sooner than others but we all get there a lot quicker by following this site because without it I would be in the nut house.

Take care

I hate cooking at the moment well it is not one of my greatest attributes.

But do Goddesses cook.

NO NO NO NO

We only do magic, in pink sunglasses (dont look but also in pink underwear)

Hey girls thanks for your answers. Mimi keeps my hope up.
I am betting my whole life on MB principles. And Mimi, I agree, plan B is extremely painful but at least you have your self respect. And maybe by the time it ends, if recovery is not the ending, you will at least have suffered this process of separating and dissolving the marriage with dignity and respect, have grown as a person and will be able to recover yourself much faster.

D day: I had suspected for a long time that something was going on but it was very difficult to tell because they had perfect excuses to be together ALL DAY. In teh morning they worked in the same place and I suspect that the PA was carried out at lunch time when they left that job and suposedly were doing bank things. Then they would go to WH's office where he is the boss, so he can do whatever he wants.
He would come home about 9, while the office closed at 7, but he was "working and checking emails" etc.
Until May 2004 the office was at home and he would stay on the internet until dinner at 9. So I couldn't complain.
On weekends he would usually go to the beach house and I went with him until march where we had a problem with DDs. We had actually asked OW to stay one weekend. So I didn't go anymore and he kept going. Sometimes I would ask him friday night and he would say he didn't know and then I would catch him sneaking out saturday morning.

Anyway, first I hired a detective who lied to me and said he had gone alone.

Then my brother, who was convinced I was inventing things told me he would go to the toll booth and watch him go by. And that's how he saw him going by with the secretary. Since that day my brother never talked to him until Xmas.

I wrote an email (on word first) telling him I knew and that I was so disappointed etc. and to please answer me and when he called to say he had arrived I told him to read his mail. I trembled all weekend but family and friends kept me sane. he never called or e mailed. On monday he said he was sorry, but that's all. He wouldn't speak spontaneously, just answer ed yes and no to the few questions I asked because I was so numb I couldn't even think of what to ask. He seemed relieved though and since that day hugged me every night and was nicer to me. Then came 2 or 3 weekends he didn't go because he couldn't and then he went with her again! that's when someone here on MB told me to confront him which I did on monday. When I asked him, he said, please don't ask me that, I don't want to hurt you. I insisted and he admitted he had gone with her. They were also spending all day together of course. He NEVER said he would end it. he said he had started PA in august and that he had only lied to me once, in september when I asked him. Of course that doesn'tinclude not telling me he was having an affair during the week, buying her stuff and who knows what else.And that's the way it was during the 2 months of plan A.

have to take the dog out, will be back in an a hour

Why only 2 months of PLAN A? What made you do PLAN B? Has he tried to contact you since PLAN B?

No, he hasn't tried. he has just sent me a few notes and e mails about finances. I couldn't stand plan A anymore.

What was your PLAN A like? How did he respond? Why could you not stand it anymore?

Plan A could only take place 1 hour a day, because he would leave in the morning (not as early as before d day) and come home at dinner time (9pm). Most times he was friendly and we would chit chat during dinner and the watched TV or he would go to sleep. He would give me ahug every night. Weekends we did do family activity.he was detached and I guess he had to be careful of what he talked about in order tokeep his secret life. Everytime I tried to talk of the futur he refused. Remember he was spending ALL DAY with OW.

Plan A wasn't really 2months because he had been so detached in the 2 years previous to this it seemed I had been plan Aing for ever. In march when pressed he had given me the ILYBNILWY speech but said he didn't know what he wanted to do. I had no proof then of an affair, didn't know MB and just gave him space and tried to be nice. So, by d day I just couldn't take it anymore.

The cultural influence here is a little different. He would not have respected me if I hadn't asked him to leave. But I think he was planning on coming to visit, being friendly, enjoying my food now and then, going on family outings etc.
all the while living and working with OW.
I think he was furious or maybe very depressed when he read PBL and realized that there was NC.

he left with a good impression. he did say I was not at fault, that it all had to do with himself. OW is of no importance, etc.

I am more like lemonman: I believe in "shorter" plan As.

CC:

You said:

Quote

am more like lemonman: I believe in "shorter" plan As.

Why did you say this? You are not like LM. He is divorced and did not follow the MB Principles. Steve Harley does not recommend short PLAN As.

PLAN B is more effective after an EFFECTIVE (for want of a better word) PLAN A in my opinion.

I wrote a long answered and it wasn't posted! ARGGGGGGGG

I've carefully noted whenever SH is advising someone what he says and I remember that he has advised plan B after a short plan A, but don't remember who it was. Also I think Peny/Cherri does advise a shorter period in plan A than what Dr. Harley says in his book. At least that is the conclusion I came to because I felt a little guilty that my plan A ONLY lasted 2 months. But I don't see what I could have done differently. First,without knowing it I had been plan Aing WH for a long time before that thinking that it was actually "giving him space" and " being nice" while he seemed to be going thru a MLC crisis. This was for about 2 years before d day. So if the purpose of plan A is to let him know the kind of person you can be I'd already done that. He actually told me that nothing was my fault, it had all to do with him and not me, he tried very hard to make me angry etc and I never was. I was just confused and frightened. After d day it was the same for me. He never said he wanted to separate or what he wanted to do. It was always "I don't know". He said OW was not important and that he would always take care of us. He was very relieved after d day and although he still tried to provoke me into getting angry every now and then he was much more friendly, we did family things together, but he refused to talk of the R , the A or the futur. He agreed that we would separate after Xmas when dds exams were over but never wanted to talk about that.

Now I consider it very disrepectful and very aggressive for him to spend 12-14 of his 16 waking hours with OW and come home to eat sleep and leave his dirty clothes. Or spend the weekend with OW and bring his dirty clothes.

So how much of that could I take? two months, of numbness and sadness. and incredulity.

So what I think it was a good lasting impression on him. I did not punish him, i freed him. He cut me out of the joint account and left me with the credit cards and no cash. I never asked for anything and never contacted him. yet he respects me, he has been generous. Has never complained about the bills and seems to be respecting my wishes expressed in PBL. I have been consistent and truthful. When we agreed he'd leave after Xmas, I politely asked him to get out on the 26th. I think it was unexpected for him. I said I would not contact him and I don't. I have not interfered in his relationship with dds. in PBL I said I would not have a relationship with him while OW was in the middle. So far he has chosen her. So be it. I free him, but he insists on pretending this is temporary... and OW doesn't REALLY exist.
Is that fog, or what?
But I think it's complicated by depression or MLC or something.

What kind of person was he? the strong silent kind, didn't talk much about his feelings but we spent time together and did talk. He was truthful with me although he lied tomost people because he was private and paranoid. But his family was the number 2 priority after himself and his job, at least that's what it seemed like to me. I did confront him many times over the years about this, and sometimes it would make a difference. he is not very demanding and was very dependant for everyday things. Doesn't cook or wash or even put things away: neither clothes nor papers, nor anything. So you see I would do all those things for him as well as being the parent for all things related to dds and family.

He has no friends and lots of enemies but is very respected professionally.

I found MB after d day, I think the next day and I spent quite a long time just reading. I got the book SAA after 1 1/2 months.

I did the best I could. I'm still hurting, sad and alone. My plan B is according to Dr. H 's advice and the only problem is wanting to know if this is right, if the fact that he is respecting it and continuing the affair 3 months later is "normal" and apparently it is. Dr. H talks of 6 months after exposure as the period during which As try to survive and don't. Guess I should wait 3 months more before getting worried he might never snap out of it. Peny says 1 year.

I'm trying to do everything recommended. I am getting a life, going out, exposing when I consider necessary, but it hurts like h... it is very sad, I've never felt this bad for so long. Yet I have my self respect and I'm getting my self esteem back at least professionally. My dds are doing fine, both socially and with respect to their studies.

Both families support me, and even some of WH's employees call me and show their sympathy.

But none of that takes away the pain and sadness. At least I don't feel guilty on top of that! and you ask, why should I? because I always have felt guilty for everything that happens! But I'm changing.

This is the 3rd time I've tried to post to you. So this is not going to sound as heartfelt as I want this to be. I'm going to talk quickly. I'm sorry that you got caught between some issues that I have with LM. I am so sorry to have caused you any pain. Pain was seeping out of your last post to me.

Your PLAN A is not relevant now. You are doing as best as you can with PLAN B. All of this is awful for us and I'm sorry. You will continue to feel sad and bad. This is a major trauma. I still have not recovered. I don't know if I ever will. I have flashbacks, rages, nightmares... At least, my H tries to help me.

NO PAIN NO GAIN. I think that we will grow from this, at least, into being stronger women.

I do have a question. What needs is the OW fulfilling? You might want to think about this for when he wants to recover the M and he will. Who knows the time frame? Just hold on....

EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE... Bringing this A out into the open will be part of the death sentence.

I'm praying that this posts.

TAKE CARE!!!

Mimi, I understand. And I so appreciate your answering me and helping me with your advice and wisdom. I have also had problems postings... but mainly because the computer at my job is so old and horrible and I am constantly interrupted. Mozilla works great at home.

Anyway, you are right about thinking of the needs she fulfills. Admiration is one, but as I said, before, I knew that and tried and he didn't let me, and this has been going on way before OW.

Point is, if/when he comes back, it{s going to have to be a completely different relationship and I know what the new me wants, but I don't really know what the futur H wants, and he's going to be a diffrent person.

Also, it is a different period in our lives. Basically, as from this moment (and not 2 years ago, for example) we have to plan OUR lives as a couple and not so much as a family because our dds are now grown up and don't have the same needs for support as children do. We can now travel or even leave just for the weekend, which 2 years ago we didn´t feel comfortable doing without getting a housesitter etc.

On the other hand, H will be a different person after this experience. I don´t really know what to expect, so it´s difficult to know what needs he might have. I know everyone thought we were a perfect "couple" because we got on well in spite of WH being quite a difficult person.

Anyway, have to leave the job and go home now. will check later. Thanks again. I don´t want to create problems with you and LM. But it´s true that among others, LM, Cerri and I believe in rather shorter than longer plan As.

I admire LM, because I know surgeons and the kind of personality it takes to be one and I know the environments they work in, and to find one that actually defends fidelity and committment is not something you find everyday.

Quote

But it´s true that among others, LM, Cerri and I believe in rather shorter than longer plan As.

You said it again. We can be friends again if you stop saying this. I believe PLAN As should last as long as possible. I'm not liable to change my mind about this. OK? If I was around when you were in PLAN A, I would have encouraged you to stick with it, just like Steve Harley encouraged me to stick with MY PLAN despite my FWH's resistance to it!!

That's my Point of View. Sorry. I might use LM as a surgeon. Probably wouldn't use him as a Marriage Coach. He disrespected me by not responding to several posts that I made to him several weeks ago. I think he ignored me because I disagreed with him. This GODDESS is not comfortable at all with that!

Moving right along....

I will be leaving Thursday morning until Monday morning.

Hope to hear from you before then....

Ok Mimi, I won't mention it again. Nothing we can do about it anyway.

I'll miss you.

BTW, yesterday a friend who does some spying for me called me (which is quite unusual as normally she doesn't tell me anything unless I specifically ask) to tell me that she had confirmed that OW and her friend (who works with her) have started classes with one of my dds. Apparently both had abandoned their studies years ago but now have decided to start again since their checking in work and then disappearing to go to class is "approved" or "allowed" by WH who is the boss. My friend was worried for my dd,but I don't think there is anything I can do about it. DD would probably not recognize the friend but she will obviously know OW if they meet. Of course at this moment OW is not around. I think this is the stupidest thing that she could do, but there is nothing I can do about it. Can't shield her from her mistakes.

Are you going away for fun?

I think you need to let your husband know, in some way, that the OW is taking this class with your daughter. OW might be doing it on purpose. I think it is not acceptable for them to interfere with your DD's life. Also, this may mean that trouble is brewing between them..... Are you sure that this "friend" can be trusted.

I am going away for a conference but H is going with me. So learning and fun!

You are right Mimi. I haven't said anything to DD yet because this week OW is not here and I don't even know when they are coming back. I would have mentioned the fact to her as soon as I knew they were back because I was thinking that it's unfair.

About the friend: she gets second hand information from someone who works in the mornings with OW and WH. Apparently everyone there is "afraid" of OW. OW's GF who is taking these courses with her said she had started her english classes again as an excuse forleaving during work hours but another co worker actually remarked that OW and GF were in teh same class as the boss's daughter! and my friend seemed to even know which classes they were supposed to take.

I find it difficult to believe this version completely, YET, because these 2 (OW and GF) have secretarial duties to perform at this job, so I find it strange that nobody would say anything about them being gone all morning. On the hand the classes only started 2 weeks ago and are not quite organized yet, so probably OW hasn't even started going.

If I do write to WH about this, he willknow someone is telling me things and since OW is so secret about everything they'll become paranoid about who might be spying on them and I'm afraid they'll take it out on the other coworkers.

On the other hand, WH seems to be extremely confused and not really thinking logically so he may have not realized that this can be very dangerous.

What if I warn DD of the possibility of meeting OW at school and let her talk to WH about it if she does?

I think "unfair" is a mild term to describe the OW taking a course with your daughter. That's as close as it gets to emotionally abusive/life-changing for your daughter. How old is she? I remember how painful it was for me to learn as a teenager that my father was unfaithful. It took me years to forgive him. Too bad he was deceased when I learned about my H. I wanted to talk to him about WHs that's for sure! I certainly would not leave it up to her to talk to him. How awful for her!!

LOL! OW remains a secretary. That's telling you something isn't it. She has not gained any notoriety as the boss' GF. She remains at the same level where she belongs.

You said:

Quote

since OW is so secret about everything they'll become paranoid about who might be spying on them and I'm afraid they'll take it out on the other coworkers.

So what, CC? This is a problem they created. Let them worry about it and fix it. Don't enable their secrecy and wrongdoing. Have an intermediary tell him, someone in his family maybe. They don't have to know how you know. State it as a fact. "I know such and such and I expect you to do something about it."

BE STRONG! BE THE GODDESS AND PROTECTOR OF YOUR CHILDREN THAT YOU ARE!!

Take Care!

Ok. you are right. I'll talk to BIL and ask him to intervene, and if I don't think he will I will send WH an e mail, but I will warn DD about the possible meeting.

On the other hand, of course OW is still a secretary, or rather she has now probably become like a personal slave and does less and less "work". It's quite obvious that this situation cannot last very long as it is. She might as well quit and become a stay at home OW, everyone would be better off. Except that she'd lose CONTROL, but then she's already losing it.
DD is 18. So far they seem to be taking the sitch in stride. But Thank God they haven't been exposed to the A, because WH pretends that he lives alone and always takes them out alone. They always call him on his celphone, never call the office phone, I guess in case she answers. They are intelligent girls.

I'll make that call today.

BTW, the secrecy is soooooo ridiculous that it is SECRET that WH is not in the country????? My friend who works forhim called and asked to speak to him and was told he's not around at the moment. WTH?????? of course OW's not being around at the same time is also secret and everyone has "obeyed" teh order of not saying they are notin teh country.

WH told his daughters he was leaving for 10 days 1 day before leaving and left no contact phone. HE calls them. He told his mother he was leaving the same day. It is sooooo sick.

Hi cc -

I just wanted to let you know that I am back and reading along. No real contribution to make, I'm so sorry you're having to live this nightmare (just like all the rest of us).

Maintain GODDESS status.

I miss Mimi, I know you do too!

Georgia

Hi georgia, I missed you too, (but didn't want to write that on the thread). We will all miss Mimi. I am not a GODDESS yet, but I hope to become one.

To update my sitch, I haven't talked to BIL yet because I haven't had a minute since I got to work. But I will this afternoon for sure.

But I met WH's other secretary and chatted with her for a while. I exposed the A because as I suspected they are keeping it secret everywhere. Seems OW's gf is even meaner than OW. She has lived with an abusive BF for several years. Sometimes goes to work with bruises all over.

This other secretary says everything is secret and that she finds that neither of the two, WH or OW are happy. Also she has noticed that WH is very distracted and his work is suffering from that.

How was your trip?
Have to look up your thread (while I have lunch).

cc -

I'm sure you're a GODDESS in training..if not already there.

The details of my trip are on my thread, suffice it to say that it was a wonderful trip. Only sad part is that San Antonio is a trip that I had been saving up for WW and I to do together and I had hoped that would be the case. Very, very romantic city. Wonderful downtown and riverfront area. It was last October when I asked WW if she wanted to use her 2 days whe was out of school to go to San Antonio for a few days and she told me she had rather go to Vancouver to see OM. That was, IMO, when it all really started coming apart.

Isn't it interesting how these OP (OM/OW) who are going to provide such a source of happiness to our WS's always seem to have this tumultuous life surrounding them? I know that in my case, OM is rude, lazy, unkind to his wife, and (as far as I'm concerned) not really attractive in any way - and smokes. He sits home while his wife supports them by working in a coffee shop for less than $1,000 / month.

But....he's WW's dream man.

Not that I can be much of an example of things to do right, but I think you will find that exposure empowers you a lot. I know the more our circle of influence (family / friends) found out what WW was doing, the more she tried ridiculous scenarios to try to "explain away" her actions. However, the more she did, the more support I had from all sides. I suspect the same will happen with you.

And...it's good to be back and nice to be missed. I missed you, too.

Georgia

Read about your adventurous journey. Didn't you get just a teeny bit nervous with all those plane mishaps?

I{m beginning to think that maybe OP's can be classified into very few categories, and I find that your OM and Mimi's and mine OWs are the worse kind. Some Op's seem to really regret what they did inmediately. This is a better category. Ours are the ones who insist .... inspite of everything going wrong for them

One of the things the other secretary told me was that one day they were chatting (WH, futurOW and her) and OW said she wanted an older man with a lot of money! This secretary couldn't believe that knowing what she wanted, WH had fallen for it!

Using my newfound MB wisdom I told her that WH wasn't reasoning correctly but also not to worry about words and look at the actions. Most of the coworkers are terrified that they will be fired, but I pointed out to her that in spite of months of venom spilling out of OWs mouth, she has never managed to get WH to fire anyone.

Anyway, I exposed clearly. No regrets. And as far as I know, everyone except OW's GF is on my side.

I hope to be a goddess one day, but I don't see that in the near futur. This is going to take quite a while I think... WH is very slow to react, that's why it took OW several years to convince him to cheat on me. Now it might take a while for him to see that he really isn't happy...

CC -

I didn't follow my own advice...I posted to you without copying it and lost the whole thing.

On the broke airplane subject, I'm kind of used to being around (and on) broke airplanes, but the "smoke in the cabin" part is a bit serious. I'm going to follow up to see what was found on that one.

I think you are onto something on classifying OP's. Seems like, as you say, there are some who make a stupid mistake and regret it, while others seem to be stuck in a lifestyle.

You would think that WS's would SEE this and run away from, not towards, OP's like this. Someday, I may understand the human condition enough to understand WHY someone would want to jettison a stable, committed relationship with their lifelong spouse for the "excitement(?)" of OP.

However, at this stage of my life it makes my head hurt to try and figure it out....

However, Jeb loves me unconditionally.

Georgia

Georgia, I agree. It won't be easy to understand why people do these things. At first I tried to find some scientific evidence about the WS's mental conditions but I never found any. Someday I will ask a psychiatrist or psycologist. Funny enough one of the few infidelity stories I have been told sinc all this began concerns a psychiatrist and he FOLLOWS THE WS script EXACTLY!!!! he is probably the serial cheater kind of WS. He divorced his first wife when OW got pregnant and later married OW. Then when OC was few years old he got another OW pregnant and separated from his OW/wife for a few months but they got back together. Apparently he's very kind to his children so his OC is accepted. But I would hate to marry that guy and he's a psychiatrist!!!!!

Anyway, WS's have been classified but I haven't seen any description of OPs. My OW is sooooo obviously an OW that I pity her, she has no happy futur ahead, whatever happens. That is probably the worse kind of OP because their intentions are never good. Some FWS have told of not really realizing how they got into the A, but this kind of OP plans it and carries out the plan. And even when they are not happy with the results because obviously the WS is never deliriously happy, they don't give up.

In my case when I went into plan B, WH rented a place for himself, and I don't think he invited OW to move in with him. I think she probably invited herself about a month later. Now he's stuck with her. Maybe that's why he works so much, even though she's there always, at least there are other people around and since they pretend to not have any relationship, he can feel a little free from her. At least that's my impression. Or what I interpret based on reading other WH's stories.
Or maybe it's wishful thinking...

Today he called DD3 and told her he would come back to the country friday the 15th. Another secret unveiled, when he left he said 10 days but now it turns out that it will be 2 weeks and he knew it long before he left.

Anyway, I'm so busy at work I'm doing better. Maybe the weekends are now my worse times.

I Have a get together tonight and a family dinner tomorrow so by saturday I should be exhausted enough to not get depressed. And Mimi won't be here to get my spirits uo!

Wonder where Dyinghere is?
better post before I lose it

update: I sent BIL a carefully worded e mail asking him to contact WH about accepting that OW would be going to class with DD. A few minutes later he called and sort of "defended" OW's rights to choose whatever she wanted to study and said DD would stand up for herself etc. When I finally mentioned that the consequence might be that DD refuses to go to class, he paused. I think that made him think. So I insisted that he tell WH that I was not comfortable with this situation to make sure that WH knows what OW is up to and accepts the possible consequences.

BIL is not the best intermediary, but he's the best I've got. I think this is only the second time I've asked him to send a message to WH in 3+ months. BIL is not the best choice because his attitude towards marriage and relationships is not the best.He's been separated for a little over a year,not divorced yet but goes around with his kids and other women. I think his STBXW abused him and possibly cheated on him. Now he's been in IC for a while he's all for freedom of expression and everyone for himself.
Anyway, he's the best link I have to WH. Involving MIL is too cruel.

Good Morning, cc -

Sounds like your BIL isn't much of a defender of marriage or your own DD's. Sad.

Sounds like your WH is getting his fill of OW. Accoding to MB principles, this can have the advantage of getting WH to get his fill of OW quickly as the glimmer starts to tarnish. Are you seeing any signs of that?

I don't recall, but I suppose you gave him a Plan B letter detailing the requirments for NC. If he's getting his fill of her at home and at work, I bet NC is sounding better and better to him.

Georgia

Hi Georgia! (smiling)
Thanks for your answer. I did give WH a detailed plan B letter and told him that OW has to completely disappear from our lives. That means that he has to fire her from his office and either quit the other job or get her to go work somewhere else in the institution. Now I have added a requirement he doesn't know about and that is that OW's GF has to go from the same places too. This girl is a very bad influence.

Anyway, as to what is really happening I don't know because I haven't seen him for 3 months. I always had gut feelings with respect to H and I still have them now, I think.My feelings are that he has never been happy with her but he can't seem to find his way out of the situation.
That's a feeling. Everyone says he's not happy and that he has become a different person with very little control over reality. Sounds like he really has a personal problem as he has always claimed and OW decided to intrude on his life and he doesn't know how to manage that.

Most times I feel sorry for him. The enormity of what he has done has still to be felt, by all of us. I don't think I could ever survive that. He's not happy, that's for sure.

Unfortunately BIL has had a very bad experience with relationships. He's 46 now, not too late to find the right kind of relationship and happiness but the consequences of his relationship with his wife and all this separation and divorce mess with parents who are so shallow about committment and marriage willprobably have a lasting effect on the kids who are 6 and 8. I will pray for him.

Sorry I didn't answer before but today I never had a minute to come to the website. This job is keeping me very busy, thank God.

Today I got my own bank account, with an ATM card and checks. Exciting! See, I'm taking steps to be independant... about time too.

No news from BIL or WH but I did get an answer from Dr. Harley! Following Caren's advice about writing to him (where IS Caren BTW?) I wrote him an email about a month ago but he never answered. Yesterday I was cleaning out my laptop and saw the unanswered e mail and decided maybe I had made a mistake in the address so I re sent it changing the address and lo and behold Dr. Harley answered immediately. Basically he describes plans A and B and their purposes and the he says that "Infidelity is far more dangerous in SA than it is in America because of a culture of no divorce but many affairs". Finally he advises me to wait for 2 years! By then he thinks I will either be divorced or WH will have repented and come back.

You know, he's absolutely right. We should just remember that plan B is for our own protection and also for our WS's protection from us. If you think about it, there are no other choices, plan B is the best.

I always seek posts from WS who have repented and they all tell the same story, whether they still have a chance to save their marriages or they don't. One of the things that strikes me most is their fear of rejection. the importance of patience can only be measured when one takes an interest in noting the dates when things happen. This process does take time, a lot of time.

I hope I can have the patience and detachment required, but even if I don't, MB will have made me a wiser person with respect to relationships and marriage and values. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

CC:

What makes you say that you are not a GODDESS? I now deem you GODDESS CC...

In understanding what's going on with your WH scientifically, I think your answer is in the ADDICTION LITERATURE. Unfortunately, just like in any other addiction, this is self-destructive. His business will suffer. It is a tragedy. He is binging off of the drug now and is no longer able to get his high. He is crashing.

Also like the ADDICTION STUFF, everybody in your circle seems to be invested in enabling this A. Your job is to stop this so that he can begin to really suffer and feel pain. Continue EXPOSE, EXPOSE!!

I don't think it will take too much longer. I think the years of his involvement in the A have already gone by. It was an EA before if not physical.

The OW is putting the nail in her coffin as we speak. She is being demanding, LBing, thinking that she has him hooked, she is showing her true self!! Just think how ridiculous she will look on this trip!!

Be on the lookout for a sign that your WH needs your help in getting away from her. He will try to get contact with you in some way. He will be fearful of your rejection so he may try to make contact indirectly.

I really don't think that it will be long....

Stay busy...... Get stronger....

Wow Mimi! You certainly are optimistic! and probably right but I'm terrified of believing that what you say is true (although I do find it is probably true from the few bits of info I get) and being let down. Dr. Harley (not SH) has answered my mail and told me I should wait for 2 years! He doesn't seem very optimistic, he has probably noticed something we haven't about WH or my situation. I am afraid that he will be afraid to come home. I have kept my word about not talking to him or seeing him. He probably expected me to ask him formoney, for help with the car or other stuff, because not many months ago I did tell him I felt so weak and abandoned and that if I didn't have my family (him and dds) I just didn't think living was worth it. I have always been insecure and although my family (mother, aunts, brothers and sister etc) have been a great support in this situation, they haven't really been very supportive ofme in the past, probably because thought I didn't need it! But I did, of course. Who wouldn't with 3 small kids, 2 jobs and a H who never helped at all with the house or the kids?

Anyway Thanks to MB I am now nearly a Goddess and whatever happens I know there is a futur for me that is much netter than my past. I know I am worth more than I ever thought I was and I also think that God has put me thru this experience for some reason I will know in the futur.

BTW Mimi, church has been a great place for me. I love to go, I always feel calmer afterwards. I highly recommend it.
Even for a few minutes.

I am so busy at work and the computer I have is so old that I haven't been able to check into MB at all these last few days. Today I came home later than usual because I went to meet my new nephew born yesterday. It's good to be busy, it's also good to be building something, which is basically what I have to do at the new job: start from scratch. Not me, the whole "business". I might also be teaching a course next month, and that will be fun because I get to meet a whole lot of interesting people.

Anyway, I'm not sitting around waiting anymore. I'm getting on with my life, while WH decides what he wants to do. I agree with Dr. Harley that it may take longer than what is usually expected, not because of where I live but because WH is always slow. But I also know I won't wait for ever.

You know Mimi, if this MB philosophy works, I will be a star!! I can't move, I have to live and work here, so everyone will know that my weird behaviour was successful. That will be fun but also I hope to help others in the same situation.

will be back

GODDESS CC:

I keep getting logged off so will post to you quickly.

You probably didn't have the opportunity to share all the information in your E-Mail to Dr. Harley that you have shared here. I am optimistic because of the pattern that your WH is showing. He seems to be crashing, trying to binge off of the OW. He seems to be trying to maintain his high and it is not working. Plus, the secrecy factor is important. He doesn't want to continue to live like that. The fact that he does not want to bring this out into the open seems to be telling about how he feels about all of this. I wouldn't give it two years. That's too long!

I sound like a broken record. However, continue to expose as much as you can.Don't participate in everyone's enabling of the A. Make sure he knows about the OW's devious actions against your daugnter. Let him know that you find this to be unacceptable. This is a major LB for her. She is probably making demands on him that he is not fulfilling.

Mimi, you keep that broken record going! I love to hear it.

Actually I've not exposed too much more because there hasn't been anyone to expose to and because if you are right, there may be some news when WH comes back from the trip which should be tomorrow or friday. Haven't heard from BIL who was supposed to tell WH about OW and DD being in the same school/class. So this weekend I will talk to her unless something happens. WH hates anyone interfering in his relationship with me, so I wouldn't be surprised if BIL has actually told him of my position on this subject and he will communicate with me (by note) when he comes back. Remember d day I confronted him by e mail one saturday (he had gone with OW to the beach) and he neither called nor e mailed and talked to me monday when he came back, so I am not surprised that I haven't heard anything thru BIL.
Today a coworker of WH's called for me to give him a message because at the office they didn't tell him WH is not here, and I stopped his request and told him we were separated and that I wasn't in contact with him so he should call WH on the weekend. I thought of mentioning that WH was abroad with OW but refrained from doing so because I have no proof yet. Anyway this friend was very nice and said I could call him if I ever needed anything, which really surprised me since I've never been very friendly towards him but he works very closely with WH and has done so for many years. So I sort of exposed. He'll at least be wondering why. And will probably ask someone because he was surprised he hadn't been told. It's the secrecy thing....

Anyway, I had another e mail from Dr. Harley because I asked him to explain the reasons for staying married. First he said the children, but he also said that we have a life together and we will always be thinking of each other for the rest of our lives. He also said that WH probably does not want to get a divorce but that it's not fair to expect me to tolerate his relationship with OW, hence the possibility of a divorce. Still, he says I should wait for the A to die a natural death. And be very sure to not let WH back unless he agrees to take extraordinary precautions to never have a secretary that he may be attracted to again. The truth is that OW is not the kind of woman WH likes but that's where the addiction comes in,right?

Dr. Harley also said to never talk to WH in an angry way. I will have to work on that since every contact has made me very emotionally unstable (like Georgia). Since they have been written contacts I have been able to be cool about them, but I have no idea how I would react if I were to have to talk to him.

Before plan B I wouldn't get angry at all, but things are different now. On the other hand, I don't think he's trying to provoke me into getting angry anymore, but who knows what the effect of this trip has been.

Good news is that MIL has been friendly. She told me that WH calls her everyday when he's here but that on the trip he hadn't called her, "as usual" when he's abroad. He has called Dds very often, it will cost him a ton...

I signed up for a jewelry class once a week, round the corner from my job. I've been dabbling in that and other crafts so a few good classes will be nice. After that I might do other things like making soap and candles. I love crafts, but haven't had much time to do any until last year and I've never taken any classes so I'm looking forward to this.

The job is keeping me very very busy. I haven't been able to even log on to MB these last few days,nor even check my personal e mails. So far it's still a huge challenge but I'm surviving, actually maybe you can say I'm doing fine. At least my boss seems to be happy. Today I was told I may have to travel next month! That would be great.

About exposure, I do not deny the situation to anyone but lately I don't mention OW, because people don't know her. Also as I said before I will have to go on living here and working here with the same people. There is no possibility of our changing environments so I don't want to expose to those people who will not have any influence on the situation. WH is so isolated, doesn't talk to anyone that APPARENTLY exposure doesn't affect him much. but I know this is apparent. It does and will affect him.

Anyway, I've been calmer and feeling safer since I know I can't meet WH or OW around and I'm feeling stronger about myself. I suspect I'm on the right path to becoming a real GODDESS, thanks to all you guys.
In spite of Dr. Harley's underlying pessimism with my sitch (he insists on mentioning divorce, 2 years of waiting, etc) at this moment I feel strong and hopeful for the futur, with or without WH. I know it will be MY choice in the end. But I also think it's still too early for those decisions and I'm OK with waiting for a few more months. That's today, who knows what tomorrow may bring.
Baby steps...

I know I have all you MBers around if I need you

cc -

Sounds like you're doing well all things considered. I found the more exposure the better, and actually found this to be somewhat of a relief to me. Kind of like I had a secret that I didn't have to keep any longer.

These days, if anyone asked about WW (like the lady who cuts my hair did yesterday), I just tell them matter-of-factly that we are separated as WW has an inappropriate relationship with OM that she is unwilling to end. It is surprising how "liberating" it is for me to be able to say that to someone when they ask, rather than just trying to cover it up the way I did for so long.

Again, I think you're doing the right thing with your jewelry class. Take this time to do things that for "you", to make you a better person and enjoy the things you've wanted to do but for some reason never have.

Thanks for all the encouragement and support you've given me. You sound like a strong lady, I know this is tough. You'll come through it better and stronger whatever WH decides to do. You've made your decision to go on with your life much as I have. Thanks for allowing me to share my trails with you...I'm here to listen anytime you wish to share yours with me (and all the others like GODDESS MIMI).

Georgia

Georgia, I know I sound tough but some days are better than others so others days I sound like a wimp! But everyone is used to that on MB <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think that you and I are sort of in similar situations, although are WSs may be different. I am feeling more detached and plan to remain in plan B for at least 1 year (according to Dr. Harley 2 years). But if WH should start making things financially difficult for me I would probably have to get legal help and that is the same as divorce for me. Which wouldn´t mean an emotional divorce in y case either. I would just be in plan B to protect myself and my kids for a year. If after that I decide I really want the divorce, it will already be done. If Wh wants to come back, we´d still be emotionally married and we could eventually be legally married again. That´s the way I see it. For me the "unmarried state" is a personal decision you make and supposedly communicate to your spouse.

cc -

I can assure you, I too feel like a wimp very frequently. It amazes me that some folks post here telling me how good I'm doing, when in actuality I sometimes question my own sanity. I see homeless folks when I'm driving to work and I question if I'm going to end up among their ranks before this whole thing is over with. So....if it weren't for the fact that we are GODDESSES and WARRIORS, I might think we should start a WIMPS clubs. But, the 2 must be mutually exclusive.

I think in my case the divorce issue is not so much for financial protection as it is for mental / emotional protection. I think that WW could drive me to an insane assylum (where I could teach pottery, BTW), if I stay married to her, support her lifestyle and pay for our home, while she continues with OM who she would likely have move in with her if all continued as is right now.

I guess there is some measure of financial protection involved, but I think it's just time that I have to say "enough is enough".

Georgia

Quick posting here! I always get logged off!

Great exposure to the friend. That's a point in your favor.

Do you buy the significance of culture in regards to your H's A? Is Dr. Harley stereotyping you on this? Just wondering since your sitch sounds so much like mine.

You really think that you would be communicate angrily if you talked to your H? How about in a GODDESS-like fashion? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Calling DDs while on the trip? A great sign. He's trying to keep his handle on reality. OW probably hates those contacts. Contacts with them is sort of like having contact with you. The FOW in my case started making demands to get pregnant towards the end there. I had his children and she didn't. YUK! H said that she would do crying scenes over how she wished she could have his children. Little did she know that this was putting the nails in her coffin; the last thing he wanted was more children..... He became scared that she would try to trick him into this. Also that would be her avenue to get his money....Of course, she was telling him that she was not in the R for money. What a liar!!

Also, great on doing the crafts. Keep trying until you find some avenue that works for you....

You said about exposure:

Quote

About exposure, I do not deny the situation to anyone but lately I don't mention OW, because people don't know her. Also as I said before I will have to go on living here and working here with the same people. There is no possibility of our changing environments so I don't want to expose to those people who will not have any influence on the situation. WH is so isolated, doesn't talk to anyone that APPARENTLY exposure doesn't affect him much. but I know this is apparent. It does and will affect him.

What difference does it make that people do not know her? I agree with Georgia that you will feel liberated yourself in letting people know about your situation. You don't even have to call her name. Say, "My husband left me to be with another woman". If your WH is not influenced by exposure, why is he trying to keep his A a secret? I think he does not want it exposed and for that reason go ahead and expose. I repeat, my FWH got a great sense of relief over "being normal again". He used to constantly express his relief over this. Your WH does not want to continue to live at such a high level of secrecy. I agree with Dr. Harley that A will die a natural death. The question is whether you will still be around for him. I'm trying to encourage you to hang in there and wait.

You said:

Quote

That's today, who knows what tomorrow may bring.

Yep, "what a difference a day makes"....

The main goal: Have fun TODAY no matter what......

Mimi, pleaseyou keep repeating that stuff . You are absolutely right. About exposure I do as Georgia does, I don´t deny what is happening, ever. But you are wrong in one thing: he did not leave me for another woman, I asked him to leave because he was with another woman. That´s what I told a friend of mine yesterday when she called to say she had heard the good and the bad news. So I asked her what she had heard because I wanted to ake sure she had the right versions and when she said that WH had left I told her that I had asked him to leave. She also had my position wrong at the new job, but that´s less important.

About Dr. Harley´s idea that things are different down here I don´t know. Either he picked something up from my messages or he has a preconceived idea of the way latins are. It is obvious that the "macho " culture is alive and well around here, but that was not our personal philosophy. Infidelity is rampant among physicians as well so I have those 2 risk factors. But in my personal case WH and I had discussed many times how morally degrading affairs were, he would tell me stories he heard from "men friends" about their lovers etc and he always acted as if he did not agree and was embarassed by the fact that they were so stupid as to be unfaithful, not like it was an enviable thing. Neither of us has calls or things like that, so we're not the typical MDs either.
Of course, it could be the MLC, or WH´s personality that Dr. Harley has detected as a bad sign. Or maybe it's just his intuition. who knows.
Fortunately, it doesn´t change what I (and he) believe I must do: plan B for at least a year.

I really have no idea how I would react if I came face to face with WH, but I´ll try to speak the leat possible.

About pregnancy, I´m sure that is in OW´s mind. Little does she know that WH does not like babies and I don´t think he wants children at this stage and so far he doesn´t even admit OW´s existance so I don´t think he´s planning a futur with her. But I don´t think WH even knows that himself. That´s what his actions have shown so far.

As you can see I have had a few free minutes today, but I have to get back to work. It´s raining, maybe that´s why everything is a little calmer today.

GODDESS CC;

Have your toga draped and sunglasses ready for when your WH contacts you!! Better yet, listen carefully and don't respond. Say something like, "I'll get back with you on that, I'm busy soaking in the Jacuzzi" (or whatever a GODDESS such as yourself may be doing). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

BTW, why can't you ask your MIL to inform him about the class? Doesn't she want to protect her granddaughter from this?

You seem to know but don't want to admit to yourself that this A will eventually end. He is wanting to have his fun as long as possible. When it feels bad enough to him and he figures out a way to get away from her, he will end it. He may need your help. We'll see.

Mimi, I'm nearly sure the A will end. I don't even believe WH is having much fun at all. He never was the kind to "have fun" anyway but he hasn't made ANY effort at all to spend time with her. On the contrary, they worked straight thru the summer holidays without taking any holidays. He did NOT invite her to live with him in the beginning. So I don't think he is enjoying this very much. I think she's calling the shots and he justs goes along with it, which doesn't make him blameless at all, of course.
When they say that the person who has an affair immediately loses half their brain cells they are absolutely right. Nobody has ever said they find WH happy, or even looking good. They say she shouts at him and treats him horribly in front of others. Why should he take this abuse? I guess he likes it. Wonder if that is an emotional need of his I never filled? I'm afraid I am not interested in learning how to.

I know it will end, but I can't imagine what I will feel then for WH. We'll see.
And he most probably willneed some help to get rid of her...

Well things have taken a turn for the worse. It turns out that BIL must have told WH what I thought about OW going to school with DD. WH was on a trip (most probably with OW), scheduled to arrive back home on friday. From USA he set up a dinner date with dds for friday night and incredibly enough kept it. They came home late, I was already asleep. Saturday he called dds on their phones, and knew we had gone to a rugby match that afternoon, and had found out the result and all. Sunday he visited with 1 dd and then with the other who was at a rock concert she helped organized. Then he went to visit BIL. Saturday evening I finally told dd of the possibility she might meet OW or OW´s friend at school since I have not had an answer from BIL.
Well today WH called and went to pick dd up from school and mentioned that OW´s friend had sat next to her in class one day but dd doesn´t know her. So dd asked if OW was also attending and he said yes. Now dd is furious, says she will call her all sorts of things, wonders what her dad is thinking and has told me she never wants him to come back.
He doesn´t deserve it.

It is very unfortunate that it has come to this. I really don´t know how to help her. She´s obviously stronger than I am.

are you guys sure this is all forgivable?

Unfortunate but this is typical WS behavior.

I will get back with you tomorrow morning my time.

You of all people know that worse things happened to me.

It is the addiction.

Yes. It is forgivable.

I know Mimi, you forgave even worse things. Thanks for answering. I´m off to work and will try to check later.

CC:

I'm so sorry you have to go through this. I certainly empathize as you well know with your pain.

Facing the reality of this awful situation, this was going to happen eventually. Your daughters were eventually going to be touched by all of this. What I find difficult to understand is why are the OW and her GF going after your daughters? What do you think? The good part of this is that this is certainly a LB. She is probably demanding for him to make more of a commitment to her, wanting to be part of his world with your DDs. Maybe she is trying to push this in some way. As predicted, it has backfired on her. I don't think your WH is happy with this affect on his daughter. THIS IS EXPOSURE! The A will no longer be enabled by you. He gets that message.

In his foggy thinking, he was hoping that it would all MAGICALLY work out- your daughter would accept her in the class, they would like each other, etc. Maybe the OW was even trying to convince him. Who knows? However, this exposure is a good thing in regards to bringing an end to the A.

Can you forgive him? I think YES if he shows remorse, repentance, whatever... You know what I mean. When my FWH got completely out of the fog, he was himself again, not this type of crazed person that you are seeing in your WH. My FWH was so EVIDENTLY ASHAMED and still is about the things that he did during the A. Your WH is sick right now. Of course, this is no excuse for what he is doing to you and his children. However, I am a person that believes in forgiveness if the guilty party is repentant. This will be a valuable lesson for your children if they can forgive their Dad or if they choose to forgive their Dad. It's between them and him.

You see this as bad. However, this is a standard part of the script unfortunately. I think there are problems brewing between your H and the OW.

The question will be will YOU WANT HIM back after all of this? Shelter yourself from the storm. Get strong and stay grounded. Be there for your daughters. They will need you. Your WH may need you, too.

What about your inlaws? Do they have any influence over him?

Mimi, let me try to answer some questions you ask as best I can:
1. Why is the OW doig this? I believe it must be BECAUSE she is a predator kind of OW. Of course WE think it is stupid of her to provoke this possible meeting with DD, but OWs of this kind probably think they have solved their lives and now are a step away from becoming Society Women. Her "friend" probably puts these ideas into her head too.
She obviously has no shame of what she is doing. Maybe she´s trying to somehow "come out of the dark", but WH doesn´t seem to want to come along with her. Yes, she´s doing her own exposure of herself now. Who knows, I can´t read that kind of mind, too foreign for me.
I know DD said she would not tolerate her, so she´s in for a nice surprise. I warned her about OW´s friend but nothing happened today except that WH called her a whole bunch of times. He also called another DD a whole lot of times. He´s calling them very frequently and even being with them much more than when he lived here, so something is changing. Don´t want to get my hopes up yet.
2. MIL still can´t believe it and pretends that she doesn´t know in the sense that she doesn´t ask questions and tries not to know. I sometimes comment about things but I´ve decided it´s not worth it so I´m just going to let her pretend. She´s horrified by OW.
3. BIL probably agrees. I´ve given up on him.
4. I am so busy with the new job, I´m finally able to detach quite a bit. I don´t get as upset as before and I´ve been thinking that I may even be getting to the point of really letting go. I think that maybe Jesus has something better for me and a purpose for me to go thru all this. But I also know for sure that I can´t make any decisions at this moment. Until I finally face WH I won´t really know whether I am able to forgive him or not. Of course he has to feel remorse and shame etc. If I didn´t believe he at least has some feeling left for me apart from respect which he has shown he feels for me I wouldn´t be able to explain why he hasn´t EVER mentioned divorce. It´s the logical solution for logical people. And some waywards.

Anyway I´m holding up much better than I thought. Time does help things get better, but this is far from painless and still very dangerous for all of us. At least financially.
I worked very hard to get to where we are now and it does make me angry that, considering WH only did what he would have done whether he had a family or not(no sacrifices at all) whereas I did give up my first career because of the girls and barely managed the second one, with a lot of sacrifice, he should spend it all on himself and OW. But if he persists, he won´t have anything left. His job is already suffering and although he will still be excellent at what he does, she won´t let him work.
But that´s his choice.

I do feel that in MY particular case there are things that complicate that you do not get in USA. For one, we cannot go work anywhere else.
The equivalent of the CDC. BTW, friday I am out of the city for work.
So you see, there is nowhere to go, no way to "start anew", we will always have to see the same people, live in the same city... That makes adultery worse. Here, you will never escape it. That´s why exposure is so frightening. There will always be somebody who knows from a cousin, a friend or a coworker. That´s WH´s problem but it could also be a reason for him to never come back.
Anyway, I´ve done a great plan B, I´ve not talked or seen him and I am getting on with my life. And God has given me this new job, which is fun, exciting, fulfilling and promises a lot of travel. So, I have to make the best of the situation, as usual.

I really hope you are right Mimi. And hopefully everything might turn out as you predict. I wish it to, but all this situation is soooooo un-natural for me and the girls and my family and even my MIL, that we are really on a rollercoaster ride.

I know Dr. Harley is pessimistic because we´re latins and that includes macho culture etc. But the point is that WH and I were not your typical latins. We have both travelled, we know how the rest of the world thinks, maybe I more than him. But we were the couple everyone thought would last forever. There is not one person in the family who has shown any support for WH. Or any friends.

Anyway. it is depressing but thak God I´m becoming too busy to care. That´s good for me but not too good if we are expecting to recover. But I´ll cross that bridge when I get there. I still hope you are right.

Maybe my spy will have some news for me tonight. I won´t call, but if she does, I´ll let you know.

Thanks for writing to me. I went to jewellry class today. It was nice.
I guess Georgia is off on his trip. Hope he has fun, he needs it.

CC:

You said:

Quote

I think that maybe Jesus has something better for me and a purpose for me to go thru all this.

You mentioned JESUS. Let me be honest and tell you that according to my belief HE wants you to be with your H. GOD brought you together and will bring you back together if you have faith in HIM and that is HIS will. "Thy will be done". Satan, in the form of the OW, evil forces or whatever, does not like marriage. JESUS does not believe in divorce and hates infidelity. Infidels are said to burn in hell unless they repent. Enougn of my religious beliefs but I needed to inform you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Of course, something is going on with your H. OW is LBing and being her evil self now because she thinks that she has him. She does not know about MB and the AFFAIR BUSTING caused by exposure and LBing...

I feel honored to know you. You are such an intelligent, important, gutsy woman! What a loss for your WH! I'm not sure why you say exposure is a reason for him not to come back. It seems the opposite given your situation. He will always have to face others in shame. I wouldn't think that he would want to live his life that way.

He has not mentioned divorce because he does not plan on divorcing you! He is waiting for his fling to MAGICALLY end somehow. I think it was his hope to stay at home while he continued with her. Whatever, he is not thinking logically about this! He is addicted as you seem to understand and he will continue to self-destruct unless he figures out a way to get away from her.

The rollercoaster ride you describe is and has been the same for all of us here, so unnatural and unexpected. That's why others who have not been touched by this fail to understand.
Hang on tight. Your ride maybe just beginning.

Mimi, I believe WH was hoping to stay here and continue his affair! That´s for sure. I did have to ask him to leave, he NEVER even suggested leaving. And he is probably hoping that magically the whole A will someday disappear! but that it obviously a WH reasoning.
WH has always been very very stubborn so it´s sure to take him a long time to give up insisting on the A. On te other hand I´m afraid he´s too proud to admit his mistake and will continue the A even knowing he has no futur with her. You see he still pretends nothing is going on and in the futur could just pretend that I kicked him out and he had just made "one mistake" as he calls it
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Anyway we understand waywards thinking but their actual reactions are not always that predictable.

I know Jesus hates divorce and I´m sure he meant me to be married to WH, and I also DO NOT regret having married him and stayed with him all these years in spite of how difficult they may have been. But I did go to talk to a priest and he told me I had done the right thing by having WH leave and that the church (catholic) does not condemn women in my situation. So I felt better after that.

I am certainly trying to do everything I can to bring WH back. The priest and my friends have told me that I shouldn´t rely on my "internet buddies" but you guys are the only ones who understand and I trust you more than I do them. I believe that this is my best chance to fight for my marriage.

Did I tell you that Dr. Willard Harley sent me Love busters? he must get the impression that I am a difficult person, or have a bad character. So far from the truth.... but of course he can´t tell from a distance and only a few words in an e mail. But it really made me think. I try to find proof of what went wrong from what others have said. What I´ve reasoned so far is that I did the best I could, but WH is a very difficult kind of person and I have been the best possible influence on him. He is professionally quite successful in spite of not letting me help him in that area and socially acceptable until now, thanks to my efforts. I´m terrified he´ll just become one of those excentric a little mad guys without the reality check we, his family, provide for him. I know he doesn´t sound like a great guy but he has made me happy, and I feel I belong with him, even now.
As you may have been able to tell, I am not a dependent sort of person. It is my choice to be with him. But I cannot control what he does, and I will not tolerate the A, his disrespect for the family or any of his selfishness in the futur, because that tolerance is part of what got us into this. I will not live with an infidel.
I know you understand. I will be patient. I do not take things lightly.
When people asked me if I belonged to this or that I would always say that I didn´t belong to any club, or political party or any other organiation, that i had married once and that I only "belonged" to my husband. Specially these last few years when my role as "mom" was less and less important.

Anyway, I´m still hanging on, trusting MB. I´m nearing the 4 month plan B date. But things are getting better. I´m not that anxious anymore.

I edited the post before last because I had included info that would easily identify me.

CC:

Your WH and your situation continues to sound so much like mine!

You said:

Quote

know he doesn´t sound like a great guy but he has made me happy, and I feel I belong with him, even now.

Almost these same words have come out of my mouth many times. Your WH also has a strong attachment to you, CC. That's how I'm sure that right about not he is missing you terribly. I think that's causing him to want to spend more time with your daughters. That is his only connection to you. The OW must sense this. She can't go after you so she is going after them. However, like you said, who can even guess what she may be thinking and doing? I do think that you need to be on the lookout to protect your daughter from her or to protect her from your daughter.

You also said:

Quote

WH has always been very very stubborn so it´s sure to take him a long time to give up insisting on the A. On te other hand I´m afraid he´s too proud to admit his mistake and will continue the A even knowing he has no futur with her. You see he still pretends nothing is going on and in the futur could just pretend that I kicked him out and he had just made "one mistake" as he calls it

You're speaking of your WH as being prideful like my H is. But that also means that he is proud that he has you. I think your new job will get his attention. Yes, typical WS behavior to try to rewrite history and try to blame everything on you. However, exposure, making the A real, taking away the fantasy aspect of it will make this increasingly difficult. Seems like OW is helping you really as bad as it seems. The more she comes out in the open, the worse it will be for them. He may be proud but he is not proud of this A and he is not proud of her!

I´m sure he´s not proud of OW. Afterall she is nothing much. She could have been had she taken the honest road. She seems capable but she abandones her studies a few years ago in order to be with WH as much as possible. In hindsight I see that. So now she is 32 and she is not much. Just a 24hr secretary as I call her. Actually WH once told me that OW´s friend who is in all this, was actually better prepared than OW. She speaks english! So yes, he is ashamed of her and that is part of the reason why he denies her existance.

DD seems pretty capable of dealing with OW if she meets her. Maybe OW is having second thoughts about going to class...

You know Mimi, one of the most brilliant aspects of MB plans is the plan B letter. The fact that you spell out the requirement of ending the affair on paper which the WS gets, is absolutely brilliant. Any doubt the WS might have all he/she has to do is re read the letter. I wrote it by hand for him, although I copied it from a draft I had made on my laptop. I re read it many times. Then my computer crashed and I didn´t have a copy! Thank God I was able to save the info on the disk and as soon as I got the cd I went to my brothers (my printer was broken too) and printed a copy of PBL which I keep in my journal. So PBL is as important to me as I hope it is to him. It´s the link between us.

Have to go to work now

CC:

You said:

Quote

So yes, he is ashamed of her and that is part of the reason why he denies her existance

I think this is why EXPOSURE of the A is so important!

Also:

Quote

DD seems pretty capable of dealing with OW if she meets her. Maybe OW is having second thoughts about going to class

LOL! Looks like you have a GODDESS-IN-TRAINING! I have YOUNG WARRIORS with testoterone. I had to make sure my elder son didn't learn who the OW was. She definitely would have been assaulted and he would be in jail! My younger son knows who she is and where she lives but fortunately didn't come face to face with her. My OW acts as if she is scared of them and me. Some say she is a COWARD. I have never understood that description. Her actions have seemed bold to me. Of course, like you, I have lots of standing in the community and she might not want to face me. Oh Well....

Yep! The PBL is key. My FWH kept his and quoted from it as he was finding his way home. Interesting. I also wrote mine out. I think that made it more meaningful and significant...

I'm jealous.

You spoke to Georgia and not to me!

How are you?

Well this afternoon I had a chance to insist on exposing a little more to one of WH´s employees, but incredible as it may sound they all have difficulty with the subject because WH and OW pretend nothing is going on, so there is no chance for them to show what they think. Anyway, I keep insisting.
Later the spy called and says that things are apparently not very good between WH and OW today. Neither has admitted they were away together.

WH is taking dds to dinner tonight.

So things are back to the usual, but maybe as you think Mimi, this is the beginning of the end. Just a gut feeling. I may be wrong though and it will take a lot more time.

CC:

I think you can trust your instincts. It's obvious that all is not well with them. I wish I could eavesdrop on those dinners with your daughters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He probably tries to soak up all the information that he can about you. At the minimum, there is some reminiscing going on in their discussions.

We'll continue to WATCH AND WAIT.....

I´m back and back to watch and wait.... That´s plan B after all.
Had a very long and tiring but exciting workday the consequences of which will be seen on monday.

Will chat with dds this weekend, and see how they are doing, if they tell me. Mostly they don´t say much about WH to protect me I think.

so we watch and wait

Our other MANTRA:

PRAY UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS!!

PUSH!

CC:

I am concerned that I have not heard from you. How are you? What's been happening in your world?

Hi Mimi,
sorry I didn´t catch the message earlier but I have been lurking only a little and on workdays I barely get to check MB early in the morning and then in the evening when I get home. So far being so busy is great!!!!!
But I have been having some mixed feelings, due to several things I guess: 1. Dr. Harley´s mails, 2. I started reading Lovebusters 3. it was MIL´s birthday and 4. WH is seeing and calling dds very very often.
About Dr. Harley and lovebusters, I got to thinking and I´ve come to the conclusion that I barely have a taker and WH barely has a giver which is probably why our marriage seemed so ideal and lasted so long. Of course, in hindsight it wasn´t really that good and I now know that I must work on my taker and never ever accept that kind of relationship again. I haven´t really been the GODDESS type have I? But now thanks to all you guys I really feel I deserve more.
I don´t regret anything. Being a giver is not necessarily bad in my opinion but these kind of situations are bound to happen, obviously so it´s not the best for marriage. WH never blamed me for anything, on the contrary the little he said (´cause he purposely said he couldn´t talk about his situation) was that I was not to blame, that it all had to do with him and that he didn´t want to hurt me. that´s what was so disconcerting. But now I understand because I´ve always known him to be very very selfish and he does suffer from "dishonesty", he always has, although I believe that he could not lie to me. But he regularly lied to his family, my family and everyone else. So those are important issues to consider if there is ever any chance of recovery.

Still haven´t seen or talked to him, although I was forced to write him a note about some unpaid bill which he hasn´t answered.

Otherwise he´s being surprisingly attentive to dds. Saturday was MIL´s birthday and he arranged with dds to go in to the "party". Guess he was willing to meet me if I had decided to go because there is no reason why I shouldn´t but I had already decided not to. I don´t particularly like MIL so I had already told dds that I wouldn´t. They stayed late, and he did the usual rounds taking MIL´s friends home. then on sunday he came after lunch to take dd driving in his car because mine is broken and she has just gotten her license.
Today he picked another dd up at 7:30 am to go for a routine medical checkup and then tonight he called them to arrange dinner for tomorrow. All this is quite a change, so something is going on, but I don´t know what.

Anyway, I´m off to another city tomorrow again, with my bosses and have no idea at what time I´ll be back.

Watch and wait, that´s where I am.

Patience isn´t my strongest trait but I´m doing fine so far. I´m managing to wait and see what happens. Although I don´t agree with Dr.Harley about waiting 2 years, specially considering that I do not practice any lovebusters, but WH has most of them. It sounds selfrighteous (sp?) but I have read about relationships and studying human nature is one of my hobbies so I had resolved most of the things Dr. Harley calls lovebusters without really realizing it. I always told WH everything about myself, my work, my friends, my plans, always included him in every major decision, listened to him patiently, etc. But he did not behave the same way. Thing is he was always too sure of me. He even admitted he could absolutely trust me and he knew that I was his best friend. But still, the addiction was too strong for him to break the ties with OW and although he apparently still denies her existance to the outside world, he chose to leave rather than give her up.

Maybe he´s starting to regret it.

Maybe not. He is very stubborn too.

So I´m now into evaluating our relationship according to Dr. Harley´s book, trying to figure out my boundaries and trying to be more caring of myself.

I´m also very busy at work which is great although not always pleasant. I have some 30 people working for me and I need to get them to work! That is not a nice job because they are on the defensive because I am new, all the bosses are new and we actually expect them to work on top of all other changes!

Anyway, these are the first few months and hopefully they will settle down soon and we can concentrate on the important stuff.

I´m very glad for Georgia and his beautiful new house!
I´m also worried about Dyinghere who has disappeared, again.
I don´t read new posters because I can´t stand all that pain at this moment-hopefully someday I can help them but now there is not much I can offer.

That´s my update. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BTW, this sunday I actually pryaed for WH AND OW !!!!!

Hi CC:

Glad to see you are continuing to survive. Wow, your new job sounds demanding! Great for you.

So, if I may ask, what ENs do you think the OW is meeting for your WH?

Is your WH any different than he was when you first fell in love with him or do you feel you have gained a greater understanding of the man he is?

You might ask yourself why you fell in love with a man like him? That is saying something about you.....

Truth is I don´t think he is any different than when we fell in love. I do understand him, I know he has strong family values, but I also know he is emotionally incapable of showing his feelings. I think all this has to do with the combination of MLC and a determined predator OW, don´t forget she has publicly expressed that she wanted an old man with money and she has been working on him on purpose for years!

I don´t know why I married him. People talk about love, and I´ve tried to find out what that is. I have, I´ve read, and read and analized different situations and compared...
In my case I guess what I call love is the feeling that I belong with him, I feel he´s really my other half. It has always been that way.
Although he´s very selfish he has never ever been abusive to me or the girls.

I don´t know what the OW does for him. I guess she screams and shouts at him and gives him orders and he likes it. Maybe she reminds him of his mom.

or he´s like powerless to stop her, and once they took the first step there was no going back without consequences so he didn´t know how to stop it.

Really OW is worthless. I´m still amazed how naive and trusting I am with people, but I prefer that than WH´s attitude of considering everyone suspicious until mabe they prove otherwise.

Anyway, I have to leave now, will be back tonight

BTW, he´s taking dds out to dinner tonight and sent me a message thru one of them: says he paid the bill and will be writing me a letter today which I have to read carefully...
wonder what all that is about????
anyway, we´ll found out tonight.

IMHO he is trying to cut some ground with you. Making so that you will be more acceptable or even anxious for what he w/b sending. It still is a manipulative but subtle tactic used by WS'.

Even if you are anxious, don't show it. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart.

L.

Here it is, CC.

I can hardly wait to learn the contents of that letter.

It may be time for the ROAD MAP.

Hi cc -

I'll be looking forward to hearing too.

Georgia

Hi guys.
I got home at 10 pm after a 16 hour workday! Dds were out to dinner with WH.
The letter was all about the unpaid bill, how sorry he was about it, how it wasn´t really his fault, with proof that he had paid it. This is really a big change in attitude for WH.
First, he had never taken care of bills, and now he knows all about them and sent me a copy! of the paid bill. Wonder if OW is doing all this record keeping.
In WH´s family, they are never to blame for anything. So another interesting thing is that although this time it may be true that he is not to blame, he bothered to prove it. Before he would just have declared that it wasn´t his fault.
Lastly, he sent me a check to get my car fixed.

Orchid, I won´t get excited. Tomorrow I´ll send him an e mail with one word: thank you. I had envisioned all sorts of possible messages in the letter I was supposed to read carefully, from a request for divorce to his not paying the food account anymore. So this was actually a pleasant surprise.

What it means to me is that he´s getting over his anger at my plan B. And I find it this very good. whatever happens...
have to go will chaeck later

CC!!

I am yelling!!

STAY DARK! STAY DARK!

I hope that you have not sent him a thank-you note for doing what he is supposed to do.

What he has done is to just give you a crumb anyways!

He is cracking! He is throwing out some crumbs to "make nice". He is checking to see if you are still there for him. Let him wonder. Let him suffer in his life with her.

I hope you don't send that E-Mail.

You would E-Mail him about this and not about allowing the OW to take a class with your daughter? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Ok Mimi, I will stay dark and not send the e mail. I´ll let him find out by himself about fixing the car, he´ll ask dds.

But I am an educated person and I always say thank you, that´s what I wanted to do. Be myself.
BTW it´s his birthday on the 11th. Can I send an e mail saying happy birthday? I´ve no plans to buy present, afterall I´ve given him one for years and he never bought me one until this year. Anyway, mother´s day is this sunday so I get to see what he does about that... another occasion he has never honored.

Am at work now, and so far it is quiet but in a couple of hours I´m off on another field trip! So I´ll miss my bijouterie class today... pity, I had a whole lot of things prepared.

CC:

I certainly agree with the importance of showing gratitude.

However, you are not in just LIVING MY LIFE mode.

You are IN A BATTLE to save your marriage. Right?
I'm helping you with STRATEGY.

He is about to crack. Your every move here is going to be important. Use your smarts now for this. A laissez-faire, I will be me attitude is not recommended here. You are using the MB SYSTEM. Right?

PLAN B. PLAN B. STAY DARK!! No BIRTHDAY CARD. NOTHING! Particularly now. He is feeling the pain of his A. Let him suffer.

If you recall, I wanted to break down at this point, too. MM encouraged me to STAY DARK. I am passing this recommendation on to you. Each time you respond will only prolong the A. He is trying to get you to respond to him in order to save him. He knows how to get to you because he is your H!! He is doing this through your daughters and probably by something you got from his letter. That's why he said to read it carefully.

DARK! DARK! DARK! Let him get even more desperate. You need more than crumbs before responding to him.

Let's wait for his next step.....

Ok Mimi. I will follow MB principles and stay absolutely dark. Tomorrow I will have the car fixed, and not even say thank you.
And now Ithink of it, you are right about his birthday. If I don´t say anything it will get him thinking that I may really not care anymore.... About time he realize that having an affair can make your wife angry, right?

Last night I was remembering that in his family tere is a story about an aunt who divorced and married another guy, but her ex husband would go to lunch every sunday. Then the 2nd husband died and the wife remarried the 1st one. This story is always repeated whenever the subject of divorce comes up. I think WH seriously thought that he could live his A and come visiting whenever he wanted and enjoy my cooking etc. So he must have really been pissed when he read my letter.

He´s still calling dds all the time. I mean all the time... it´s really weird and he´s pissing them off.

Today the dog was sick. he was in pain this morning, poor thing. One of dds took him to the vet but he´s still in pain tonight. I feel so sorry for him. We´ve started him on medication and I´ll let him sleep inside tonight.
One problem with such a big dog is that I can´t carry him... so if he´s not better tomorrow I don´t know how I´ll get him to the vet again.

Anyway, I´m only just answering because I was on another field trip, and just got back. I have to write the preliminary report now. I´m really enjoying this part of the job! And I feel so important! It´s actually funny....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm happy that you are back on track!

WATCH AND WAIT!

Just read your PTSD thread. A long long time ago I had a teacher who once told me that we people are like mosaics made of millions of little pieces which were our experiences in life and it was that combination of experiences which made us unique. I´ve always felt that certain experiences leave permanent scars and you just have to accept that they are there. Maybe I first realized that when I had my gallbladder taken out and I got a huge scar. I was 19 years old.

I have quite a few emotional scars and I view them as I do my "gallbladder scar", something that will always be with me. They are all a part of me. One little tile in that huge mosaic which make me unique.

Hi cc -

I'm glad you're getting good advice from Mimi.

Sorry to hear your dog is under the weather, as a fellow dog lover I know how devastating that can be. Is it anything serious?

Pass along get-well wishes from Jeb.

Sounds like you're doing great in your new job, I'm glad you're finding fulfillment there.

Georgia

Hi GG. First time I get a chance to check MB today. Being very busy is great and on top of that I actually have fun at work sometimes. My next trip is on wednesday which is very convenient as it is WH ´s birthday. I´ll just tell dds about the trip and although this one is short and we´ll be back at midday they don´t need to know that. I can be away all day...

The dog seems better but not himself yet. At least he´s not in pain. Thanks for the regards from Jeb.

The car will be ready tomorrow (it was broken too) and I asked the mechanic about a VW bug for dds and he is fixing one for himself which he is willing to sell. We chatted quite a while and I told him of the situation. He was quite surprised, and sympathetic. So I told dds to tell WH about the car.

Big storm coming

Hi cc -

Glad you're enjoying work. WW's birthday was last month and I found that I had to stay busy that day as well to keep my mind occupied. Work for me is enjoyable for a bit stressful from time to time.

I do enjoy the little junkets I get to go on from time to time. I will be back in TX within the next 2 weeks. I hope you enjoy your trip.

Hope things work out for you to get the VW for dds. They are cool.

Georgia

GG, work has saved my life!!!!!! Truth is that I was in a position where I was bored stiff, so this new job which is exciting and fun but also demanding and challenging is the best thing that could have happened.

Today I found out that I´m not doing that well at all. I took DD to her first test, a saturday morning and the subject was the only course that OW has this year because she had failed it when she was taking courses. I did wonder why WH hadn´t offered to drive her there since the school is quite far away and he´s been so willing lately to pick them up and take them places(this week he took one dd driving at midday, picked another up from classes at 9 pm, picked up the other one from classes at 4 pm, all during his working hours). On the way back from dropping dd off I stopped at a shoe store. I had to cross a major street which had a grassy divider. the store was closed still so I was going back to the car, standing on the grassy divider, and who should drive by? WH, coming back from leaving OW. That is the only explanation as there is no other for him to be in that area of the city on a saturday morning and it also explains why he didn´t take dd.

Of course he didn´t see me, although I was the only person around. he looks but does not see. I started trembling, my legs were weak, I felt like puking. So it´s obvious that it affects me so much that plan B is my only option. I am still way too emotional about him. I can´t imagine actually coming face to face with him, I would probably really puke!
I am so disgusted by what he is doing and how he is acting...

I really can´t imagine why I would want him back!!!!! I don´t actually want him back. I´m just trying this because everyone here says it works, Dr. harley says it has worked for hundreds, Mimi, Orchid, Pep and many others went thru situations even worse than mine and recovered their marriage and are happier now. But I still don´t feel I can ever forgive him, I feel I don´t want the person he has become, nor am I willing to go back to the marriage we had.

So I´m really only doing this at this point out of my committment to the marriage aand because I want to prove Dr, Harley´s theory, but not because I WANT to. The example he chose in SAA is so extreme that my sitch sounds easy, but I´ve never dones anything as difficult as this.

For me the best solution would simply have been divorce, get it over with and get my own life back to do as I wish.

I am more of LM kind of person. I find that an A is the ultimate disrespect and therefore I would not be at all tolerant of that IF I had not found MB and if Mimi weren´t here to encourage me with her example and her advice.

Not a good day.

Thank God I have a tea party actually set up for me by friends who "sympathize". We´ll see.

Tomorrow is sunday. somehow that´s a relief. I can go to church.

I have work to do, i have crafts to do, and then work on monday which is also a relief.

It´s really frightening how even seeing WH knowing he´s living with OW affects me so much.

So, CC- "LM SORT OF PERSON":

Do you want me to continue to post to you?

I'm definitely not a LM sort of person! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't believe you! If you didn't care about your H or your marriage or your , you wouldn't have had such a strong emotional reaction.

If you don't want to work on this, let me know, CC.

I was disappointed in this post. I know you don't live for my approval.

Who are you really? This is not the CC I've come to know.

People can change. I would think that you could believe in forgiveness.

I wish I could frame in a picture what I saw yesterday.

MY FWH and MY SON SOBBING IN EACH OTHERS ARMS!!!! This is my H who used to live with the OW and thought he was in love with her. I BELIEVE IN MY MARRIAGE AND MY FAMILY. I BELIEVE THAT GOD BROUGHT YOU AND YOUR H TOGETHER AND IT IS SIN/EVIL THAT IS KEEPING YOU APART.

ARE YOU PLANNING ON LETTING SATAN WIN AT THIS? ARE YOU GOING TO GIVE UP YOUR FAITH BECAUSE YOU COULD NO LONGER DENY THE REALITY OF THIS BY SEEING HIM?

YOU ARE STRONGER THAN JUST RUNNING AWAY FROM THIS CC!

YES, I AM YELLING!!!

Love ya,
MIMI

MIMI, DON´t GIVE UP ON ME!!!!!!!

Of course I don´t want you to give up on me, you´re the one keeping me on course.

and of course I care for WH and family, they are the most important thing in my life.

BUT, and this is where the problem lies, I don´t think WH can be the H I thought he was. He has always been dishonest, not with me but with everyone else. And I mean everyone.
He has also always been extremely selfish.
How can I continue a marriage with a person who is selfish to extreme and dishonest?

Do you really think that this A will be enough of a shock (if he evers reaches that stage) that he would change?

This morning I got another e mail from Dr. Harley answering one I sent after having read lovebusters.
This is what he says:

"All decisions should be made mutually in marriage, where neither spouse does anything without the agreement of the other. Unfortunately, your relationship may be beyond saving, but if there is anyone in your future, you may
want to discuss that issue of interdependence before making a commitments."

And I agree. I have always shared my thoughts and plans etc and seeked and accepted WH opinion on all important and even not so important matters. But he has not. And not only that, he has always resented the fact that I have good ideas etc.

So this is why I am now 50% convinced that no matter what I do (and I´ve followed the plans and your instructions to the letter) it will not end in recovery. the other 50% is my usual optimistic self thinking that maybe I can be like you and so many others I´ve read about here and in Dr. Harleys writing. I obviously pray for this latter ending but I am aware of the other possibility.

Thank for answering on a Sunday. I knew you would.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Quote

Unfortunately, your relationship may be beyond saving

Not much time today.

Why did Harley say this?

Is there something you didn't tell me?

I guess because I explained what I said in my last post. That WH is dishonest and selfish. And that he never cared about making the marriage better, whereas I have always worried. Essentially I have avoided all love busters because I studied and read about relationships long before all this so I do not do any. WH has never cared. Even when I warn him that he should think about things, like the relationship with his daughters he never really seemed to care. His attitude is "this is who I am and if you don´t like it bad luck".

Also I didn´t tell Dr. Harley this, but WH thinks money solves everything. His family is like that. It´s their main interest. They are friendly with him now because they can get money from him now that I´m not around. I guess because I´m not around he has gotten closer to them. I was with him when he didn´t have money. So he´s surrounded by people after his "money" (not that much of it,but they don´t know) and OW is the first.

Anyway, I told you Dr. Harley must see something we don´t... that´s why he´s the expert, I guess.

Quote

So I´m really only doing this at this point out of my committment to the marriage aand because I want to prove Dr, Harley´s theory, but not because I WANT to. The example he chose in SAA is so extreme that my sitch sounds easy, but I´ve never dones anything as difficult as this.

For me the best solution would simply have been divorce, get it over with and get my own life back to do as I wish.

I am more of LM kind of person. I find that an A is the ultimate disrespect and therefore I would not be at all tolerant of that IF I had not found MB and if Mimi weren´t here to encourage me with her example and her advice.

Well, I am not sure if I should be offended or honored by you saying that you are a "LM kind of person" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. What does that exactly mean? LOL, maybe I don't wanna know the answer. I don't have much advice for you here. I am kind of sad for you, but you are a big girl and will "figure it out" on your own. Hopefully your WH stops living with the OW and comes back to you before you do. I hope that you have better reasons for saving your marriage than just wanting to prove Harley's principles right or wrong. I hope that you are dying a thousands death for better reasons than "just because". You say that you are doing this for the "committment of the marriage". I ask you what marriage? What is is about your WH that you want to save and commit to? Be sure that you yourself are not "reinventing history"

Good luck with all of this.

LM

Mimi, if you want I´ll send you the emails between me and Dr. Harley.

I have your E-Mail address. You can delete it now, CC. I will let you know how to send them to me.

It will have to be tomorrow eveing because I´m off to bed now, it´s late and I´m tired and angry and sad etc. This morning my MIL woke me up at 7 am because she came to get her grandaughter who is dds age and comes EVERY weekend to go out with the girls and stays to sleep. I don´t mind that but the problem is that sunday mornings I get SIL calling or BIL calling or ringing the bell to pick her up etc and that pisses me off. I work all week and just because it´s convenient for them they come at 7 am!!!!!

So finally I decided to confront my MIL about this (I don´t talk to SIL and BIL because they stopped talking to me about 3 years ago) and I called her tonight and told her that I preferred the grandaughter not to stay over for a couple of weeks because of all this sunday morning circus and we got to talking about WH and I really lost it.

Anyway, she told me to sell the house so that I would get away from the triggers. I don´t have triggers with the house but I think it´s a good idea, because then I don´t have to take care of the part of WH´s office which is still here. I already told dd to tell WH that I will put the house up for sale. And this week I will.

See I´m pissed today because I´m tired, and because of yesterday´s encounter and because MIL pretends that everything is fine and her son is not doing anything bad!!!!!!

I´ll be better tomorrow.

I don't think it's a bad idea to sell the house.

Great idea!

I don´t feel like working today, but luckily I have no choice. Otherwise this is a very bad day emotionally. This just proves how plan B really does protect you, I could not have come this far if it weren´t for the fact that I am in plan B. MIL kept insisting that I talk to WH until I finally told her I was so disgusted by him I would probably puke. That shut her up. Her attitude is that it is just one of those things that happen, because their family is perfect! They can do no wrong, so this is just some minor problem, probably my fault!

I should not talk to her. But the fact that they were ruining my sundays had to stop. I´m sorry for the kid. She´s going to be very angry because she wants to get away from her parents and grandmother and that´s why she comes to my house. She doesn´t seem to have friends of her own and has become very friendly with dds group.

Anyway, I hope to calm down. Tomorrow my niece is arriving from USA, she{s bringing my new laptop and books!!!! Probably Tough Love and I can´t remember which others I ordered or which my sister may have bought. Looking forward to that.

Good Morning, cc -

I am so sorry to read of the horror that WH has brought into your life by his actions. I can relate to the severe emotional upheaval as part of what I've gone through as well. And... I know that when an incident like this happens it seems as though everything we are fighting for just goes right out the window.

My only advice to you is don't do anything while in a panic. Fatigue and shock makes everything worse. Wait until your emotions have settled down, till your rested up, then re-evaluate where you are at that time.

You know that you can trust Mimi's advice. Listen to her.....I know that you're a cool, level headed lady.

Georgia

thanks Georgia. When I read of the things WSs do, mine is very tame, but it feels absolutely horrific to ME, and I actually physically react very badly. I haven´t settled down yet. I need to regain my cool head.

and I do follow Mimi´s instructions.

I do so remember my days like you and Georgia are experiencing. I really empathize with your pain. I remember struggling to try to make it into work. WOW!

I just want you to know that it is possible for WSes to really change. My H certainly has. I really believe that it's important to keep your faith in GOD, CC. There's a purpose for all of this that we may never understand during our lifetimes.

Try to get as much joy as you can out of this day. Take it one minute at a time, one hour of the time, one day at a time. Focus on whatever can bring you some bit of joy. I used to focus on the flowers growing on my desk. I would come home and plant flowers. I would look at photos of our children as babies. Oh, there were numerous activities that I would engage in to try to redirect myself.....

I had to move out of my house for sure. That became a focus for me. Our former house had too many triggers as your MIL suggested. That took a lot of time and energy. I was cleansed by throwing away junk I didn't need in order to put the house on the market. I also had to arrange repairs. Then began the process of looking at new houses. All of this would be therapeutic for you.. The house was perfect and sold the first day on the market!!

How about antidepressants for yourself? You know the value of ADs, I'm sure.....

Again, good advice from Mimi.

I have found this issue with me being a new home to be a huge step for me. I think up until now probably Jeb has been the biggest help for me in getting on with my life.

I'm sure with any new home, the advantage of establishing YOUR home is a big help. I find that having my own place, even though right now I'm just renting, gives me a feeling of a "sancturary" if that makes sense. It's kinda like it's a place that's not seen all the turmoil that OUR home has witnessed. I can some there without the triggers. When WW came in a couple of months ago, I felt like she had taken a lot of peace from me in her scouring of everything is "mine".

And.. the excitement of having my own HOME is exhiliarting. I can hardly wait to fix up MY HOUSE the way I want it, to make it my HOME.

Anyway, enough of that. In summary, I understand the point about selling the house, I concur.

Georgia

One thing is true: I will have to do some fixing and rearranging to show the house so that should keep me occupied.

I will start today

The fixing and arranging will be therapeutic for you. I promise you. Throw away some of his stuff! Burning some of his stuff can actually be FUN ( a secret between us GODDESSES).

going to walk the dog and will be back later. I´m feeling better now.

How are you doing with the house stuff? I may not get around to E-Mailing. I'm so paranoid about disclosing my identity for several reasons including my job security. It's the PTSD!

I still "luv ya"!

Mimi, I can´t put my emails and Dr. Harleys here. If you really want to read them you can create a yahoo or hotmail account, I´ll send them to you there. My name and other data are on those mails and I´m afraid that if I start editing all identifying features you´ll end up doubting the mails.

Today has been a crazy day at work, the at lunch hour I went to pick my neice up from the airport and the car alarm broke!. Now I left it at the mechanics again. Tomorrow I have to go on a field trip and next week I get to go on my first official trip to Guatemala!

Anyway I got a peek at my new laptop, but I{m longing to check out the books. I´ll be leaving work in a while and going to my mothers. I´ll be home later tonight.

Having started doing anything about the house yet. Tomorrow is WH´s birthday.

Hi cc:

Point of interest...#1S / DIL went on a church mission trip to Guatemala together when they were still in H.S. My former church has adopted a group in Guatemala and sends medical teams there about 2X a year. Some of the worst poverty I have ever seen in that part of the country.

Georgia

CC:

You may be asleep by now. However, I wanted to let you know that I was able to E-Mail you. I'm so proud of myself!!!

Mimi, I'm here setting up my new laptop. I have to go downstairs to check mail and send you the letters. Give me a few minutes

haven't got any e mails from you. i get up early tomorrow and have time to e mail you then . If not it will be in the evening as I have a lot to do at work

I must have copied your E-Mail incorrectly because the delivery failed. E-Mail me at [email]MimiMarriagebuilders@hotmail.com.[/email] Looking forward to hearing from you.

the address doesn't work. I'll give you my e mail again:
[/Email]

Ok you should have gotten them.
the laptop isn´t working right.

I got your letters to and from Harley. I will respond to you on the forum ASAP.

ok. Thank you. I´m going to sleep now but <I´ll check tomorrow before leaving

I printed out the E-Mails. I will be reading and thinking. I guess you won't get chance to read my response until Wed. evening.

Have a great day!

Checking this morning, but I won't get much of a chance today until the evening. Thank you for doing this.

CC:

I have come to the understanding that Dr. Harley and Steve Harley, who counseled me, believe in strict adherence to the MB SYSTEM and their beliefs. Notice how Dr. Harley warned you about DOBSON. He said:

Quote

Whenever Dobson says something that violates any of my basic concepts, don't believe it

That's a strong statement right.

The same warnings were used in my coaching with Steve when I brought up other points of view.

I'm saying this because I think Dr. Harley's comment to you that "unfortunately, your relationship may be beyond saving" was his reaction to YOUR VIEWPOINT in your May 8 E-Mail to him. You conveyed strong disagreement to many of his basic concepts. This will be clear to you after reading this article.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

He strongly believes in interdependence. In your E-mail, you stressed YOUR strong belief in independence and how much you value your independence. You said I a lot and did not speak of wanting to become a COUPLE with your H.

Also you did what I used to do prior to PLAN A. People here on the forum jumped on me about this. You repeatedly called your Ds. MY Ds.

I think Dr. Harley wondered about your questioning of this mindset. I think your E-Mail was in your "LEMON-MAN" mode.

Read the CODEPENDENCY article, think about this and let me know what you think.

Somehow I once thought that there was value in being an INDEPENDENT WOMAN whatever that means. It took my H leaving for me to learn that I am a much better WOMAN with him than without him. Giving priority to showing CARE AND CONCERN for him results in him doing the same for me and both of us are better parents and people. I think Dr. Harley wants YOU to try out this way of relating in any future relationship that YOU will have with your H or whomever.....

Thank you for reading the exchanges of e mails. I don't really understand the co dependant thing. I had already read it when I read everything on the website. But I am a people pleaser, I hate people getting angry with me, I gave up my career to be a wife and a mother. WH was the one who actually pushed me to study again when I had basically "quit" after dds were born but although he wanted me to study and work he never did much to help. I was still in charge of the house and the kids by myself. So when they were a little older I finally decided to be a little more independant and I took a couple of trips and things.

Even so I'm not independant and have never acted as though I were.

So I don't really understand...

You say I haven't followed MB principles. I would like more details about that because I don't really understand.

And since I found out about the A I have followed MB plans and very strictly. Made easy by WH's willingness to not seek me out, fortunately. After the experience on saturday I realize I can not yet have any kind of contact with him.

I don't see it at all clearly. I feel better now, I've been very busy today which is very god because it is WH's birthday and he chose to spend it with OW. He took dds out to dinner last night and said that he was going to be busy with work tonight and not doing anything. Anyway I have managed not to e mail him or say happy birthday in any way.
But I think maybe it's the fact that HE is so detached that may make Dr. Harley say that there is little hope.

I bought Dobson's book because it has been mentioned here probably. I just noted the books that were most mentioned and asked for them. It took me all these months to get them. I will be reading them in the next few weeks. But I have decided to adhere to MB plans for a year at least. If I'm in the mood I was in a few days ago (before saturday) I may be able to go on for two years.

But just as I said in my last e mail to Dr. Harley: I don't want to be married or right, I just want to be happy. If it can be married and happy I would prefer it, but I don't want to be married just to be married. I was willing to do whatever it took, except "share". Last year I was underemployed and WH wanted me to work more, to travel more, probably because he was already in the A or thinking of it.

Too tired today.
I haven't even read any threads today...

And I know you're busy having a great dinner with your H and son. I wish you all the best. I'm sure it will be a great dinner!

Quote

The same warnings were used in my coaching with Steve when I brought up other points of view.

I think Dr. Harley wondered about your questioning of this mindset. I think your E-Mail was in your "LEMON-MAN" mode.

Qucik T/J being that I was "called out" here and I missed this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I guess I should feel honored that I have a "mode" named after me. Kewl.

Also, Mimi, I agree with you 1000%, it is an extremely healthy way to NOT acknowledge or consider any other points of view other than Steve Harley's view or way of doing things. That is some very good advice and "warning" you are giving to CC. Nice work. I look forward to your words of wisdom daily.

LM

LM, I have actually read a lot of stuff and consider Dr. Harley's approach to infidelity the most logical and comprehensive. I read everything on this website before I ever found the forums. I've also read SAA and HNHN before I went into plan B. But I'm still going to read other things which might help me understand what I can't explain. I have read on other websites...

Maybe I chose MB because it does agree with me. It felt intuitively right to me. I went ahead and exposed, and plan Ad for 2 months and I've been in plan B for more than 4 months now. So far the results haven't been good, but after all Dr. Harley does say that there is nothing I can do until the A is over and that takes "usually" 6 months.
I'm expecting WH to take a little longer because he doesn't make decisions: that way he is never responsable for what happens.

This time, although many are urging me to ask for a D I'm not going to help him by doing that. I will wait. I've nothing to lose and maybe I will gain. It sounds cold and calculating but even my MIL with whom I don't have much of a relationship told me that I have to have a cool head... just this sunday.

I have my cool head back on again, at least for now.

Quote

CC:

I am rooting for you to get what you want. You do NOT need to spend time convincing me why MB is so good or trying to convince me that this "is right for you". The "proof is in the pudding" here. This is your life, and you are responsible for what happens to you. If you feel that staying on the present course is what you need to do, then by all means keep going. You do NOT ever have to justify anyone for doing that.

My point is that it can potentially be harmful to be so obsessed with only ONE way of doing things. I am in an analytical and scientific profession, thus whenever I hear one doctor say about another "Anything you hear from Dr so and so that does not agree with me, DON'T BELIEVE IT", I kind of go hmmmmmmmmm, interesting... Hey, but that is just me. I have always been the "odd ball out" around here, so who knows?

It is not by any coincidence that "certain" people are very very intimidated that I opine any different points of view on how to heal. The funny thing is that I have the reputation of being Mr ANTI-Marriage Builder Steve Harley around here, and if you really look at what I say here, that is probably not a true representation of what I am, or who I am. BUt oh well, I still like it here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Enough of that stuff. This is your thread, and I apologize for participating in a thread jack. You can go back to your counseling with Mimi, and I will try very hard to NOT say anything more on this stuff.

Cheers,

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lemonman:

I was posting to CC. You intruded on a conversation between me and her. You went beyond a boundary given that you didn't even read her E-Mails.

I do not care to ever communicate with you ever again.

It is NOT OK for you to be sarcastic with me.

I plan to NEVER communicate with you again.

CC:

I realized that I wasn't clear enough with you. The reason why I wanted to read the E-Mails was to understand how come Dr. Harley said that there may be no hope for your marriage.

My answer to that is how I think HE must have interpreted your E-Mail. What I left out my communication to you is this: I don't think that particular E-Mail reflected how you have lived your life with your H and how you really feel. However, if you read back over it you may see what I mean. You talked about how you value your present independence, you are not sure if you want to me married. You referred to your Ds as MY Ds. I think that Dr. Harley took this literally without having the information about you that I have come to know. Do you see what I mean?

I don't think the fact that your H is DETACHED is why Dr. Harley said that "there is little hope". He probably would have only based his thoughts on what how he was interpreting you since he has not had the opportunity to actually speak with your H.

I also wasn't clear about why I mentioned the Dobson book. I was using that as an example of how the Harleys feel about their approach. I actually used the Dobson approach with my FWH, quoting him directly so I agree with a lot that he has to say myself. Let's talk about that later.

This is actually the quote that probably was of concern to Dr. Harley:

Quote

I don't want to be married or right, I just want to be happy. If it can be married and happy I would prefer it, but I don't want to be married just to be married.

He probably wanted to hear you say something different than this in order to have more "hope" for your marriage. He may feel that YOU are losing your love for your H.

Am I being clearer?

My H and S are talking as I post giving me more time this evening.

Sorry I ranted on your thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I see your point now Mimi. Maybe Dr. Harley thinks that I'm losing my love for WH. He cannot know me from 3 e mails, I would never expect that. Maybe that's why I was so surprised by his remark that it may be too late.

According to SAA and from what Mortarman has said here, the love you might feel for a WS is actually locked away during plan B and will appear again when there is possibility of recovery. I remember MM explaining that.
I don't think I've lost that love. If I had I would be indifferent, and I'm not, that's pretty obvious.
I don't need another sighting to prove that.

You know that I haven't been angry until now and being angry is a necessary stage so that's probably what I'm going thru now.

Dr. Harley says that while the A is on there is nothing we can do to recover the marriage. So he proposes the BS go to plan B. I have thought what other possibilities there are in this situation and I really don't think there are any better ones. Just go dark and learn what a better marriage should be like. and that's what I'm doing.

I am willing to correct certain siuations like spending more time together, showing more admiration, etc but what I don't see is W correcting anything. Will he be willing? and should I get back with him if he's not willing?

Mimi, as I said before, I don't really understand Dr. Harley's co-dependant thing. I have been a lot of the things that he mentions there. Later I will give you more examples, I don't have time now. So if that kind of behaviour has to change for a successful marriage, I'm willing, but will he be?
From his past behaviour WH has never cared much about what others think. He has always taken me and the family for granted. And plan B hasn't made him change his mind about that yet. Maybe people with that kind of personality never change... and Dr. Harley knows that.

So far nothing has happened which makes me doubt that plan B for a year is the best plan.
Have to go to work now.

Quote

I am in an analytical and scientific profession,

LM, I am in your same profession, but I am in an even more analytical and scientific field. Just so you know...

I value all opinions from people on this forum, although I don´t get many posts. So I value Mimi´s opinions, because she has successfully lived thru it and is willing to give me advice on my personal situation. Not many others have bothered to give me advice. So I try to make the best of advice given to others when I think it applies to my sitch.

I have read your opinions and have written a couple of posts to you too.

I´m guilty of having mentioned that in some ways I agree with you when you show your impatience with people willing to put up with anything as long as their WS doesn´t leave...

But I did not put up with those things. Many may think that I did a too short plan A (8 weeks aprox after d day) but Dr. Harley DOES SAY weeks for BW (and months for BH) and he is consistent about that. You can hear him say on the audio that is on the website, it´s in the book, so I actually followed his plan exactly.

and now I am in a dark plan B. I have not talked to WH since december.

What is your opinion? I´m sincerely interested in knowing what you think are possible ways of managing a situation like mine.

Post deleted by mimi1254

Quote

If you want, post to me at my E-Mail address from now on. It's time for me to go.

Careful Mimi ... this is not good for you to avoid participating in some very uncomfortable and difficult board communication issues ...

I suggest you stay and 'duke it out' in order to practice much needed marriage recovery skills ... how to stand on your own 2 feet when you become emotional ... this is a very cool skill to have in your pocket for your own personal recovery...

just a suggestion

Pep

Mimi, are you leaving my thread?

Nobody but you and Georgia post to me regularly....

No. I'm not leaving.

Good. I'm busy at work but will write later

Mimi, when Georgia gets back he's going to be surprised with all this activity!!!!

I miss his good mornings!

Anyway, today the 3rd dd told me she was pissed with WH because he doesn't want to buy them a car which I have proposed. Apparently she mentioned my car had ANOTHER problem he said that he would prefer to buy me a new one and also to send him the bill that he would pay to get it fixed.
Seems he's not that angry with me anymore.

On the other hand this upcoming trip has him nervous because dds will be alone for 5 days and with my car! Obviously my family will be watching over them... wonder what WH will do? But I don't really wonder too much.

I'm excited about the trip, haven't travelled for 14 months!
Things at work are suddenly getting better (more acceptance) and I still have the support of my boss and his boss etc. I'm feeling less pressure which is good. Maybe I can really get stuff done now.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to go to my jewelry class for 2 weeks now. I'll have to catch up later.

So here I am, back in a quiet plan B, feeling stronger. I won't think of the futur for a while.

By the way, you say I said MY dds. You mean I should say our? it may be a figure of speach because english is not my only language. On the other hand, it is WH who always makes that kind of distinction. He calls me "your mother" when talking to dds whereas I hate that and always call him daddy, never "your father".
He is having to establish a relationship with them by himself. Strangely enough he's not doing that bad.

not much else for tonight

CC:

I noticed you were around on Georgia's thread.

I apologize for the drama associated with your thread.

I'm working on "MY ISSUES". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let me continue to hear from you, CC.

I guess you caught with my news on Georgia's thread.

Take Care.

Mimi, don't apologize! it's really not necessary.

I made a little update on Georgia's thread because I'm too lazy to write twice and I loved his analogy, it is very appropriate to my state of mind. I am really feeling that there is nothing I can do about WH and his sitch. I can't help him, straighten out his life, make him a better person, make him happy or anything... I can only make myself a better person and make sure I don't make the same mistakes again, whether in a relationship with WH turned into H (his decision) or someone else. So I'm calm.

I did stay after the reading of the "OW letter" had cake, chatted and a while later left.

My 83 yr old aunt studies literature, my 81 yr old mother started studying computers this year so she can use internet and asked me for a computer. I gave her an old laptop and she's trying to use e mail but still doesn't have the hang of it. It's really admirable what these ladies will do.

Yesterday I went to visit my brother and family at the beach about 1 1/2 hours away with my niece visiting from USA my mother and one dd. We had a good time in spite of the rainy weather, did some tourist stuff too.

This going out of the city is something I never used to do because I'm terrified of driving. That was always WH's job because he loves driving, so he must be wondering....

I'm reading Dobson's book but I'm not impressed by it. So Dr. Harley has nothing to worry about, I still believe in his interpretation of A dynamics.

Tomorrow I'll be leaving for a 5 day trip abroad, leaving dds alone for the first time. There has to be a first time someday, so we'll see how it works out.

I'm feeling confident and strong and on track. Still in a great plan B! Although a great plan B doesn't allow me to post any interesting things...

the ship is sailing...

CC:

This sounds great.

Quote

I can only make myself a better person and make sure I don't make the same mistakes again, whether in a relationship with WH turned into H (his decision) or someone else. So I'm calm.

I'm glad for you !

hope it's for real, the way I feel I mean. but only time will tell. At least I'll be away from all this for nearly a week.

This is REALLY how you feel today! That's what is important TODAY!

I've found it to be really helpful to try to focus on the present. Who knows what the future holds?

you are right as usual, Mimi. But it is also important to remember how I felt today tomorrow. I can feel good, if I want to. The difference now is that I have that very clear picture that what WH is doing isn't about me, it has nothing to do with me and I can't do anything about it. So far, there is nothing personal against me either. So what am I worrying about? Of course my plans, my futur is sudenly uncertain and I feel insecure, but now I have before me a clean slate with which I can build a new futur, with or without him, my choice. I will give him 1 year to reconsider his choice of marriage or no marriage and then I will really start building my life without him.

I think I'm on the right track, if not let me know. I can't believe it's only been 6 months...

You're sounding good, cc.

I can truly relate to your mindset and emotions, I think we are experiencing the same things at this point.

Enjoy your trip. I will look forward to your update when you get back.

Georgia

Hi guys!

I kept up with all the stories during the trip, but I don't have much to report on my situation. Guatemala was very nice, I had a good time both with respect to work and with respect to the visit. Met some nice people, got to visit the city of Antigua which is really lovely. Got back yesterday and here I am back at work.

Quite a few triggers on this trip, but I've survived.
DDs managed fine in my absence. No news of WH. Seems he didn't come into the house this time. He still hjas stuff left in his closet.

Mimi, about the house, I wish it were so simple!!!!

First I have some tidying to do before I can show it. Then I will have to get a real estate agency involved.
The problem is that we have mixed feelings about it: it's not that we don't like the house but that with part of WH{s office downstairs we can't dispose of that whole area. Also, for me the main problem is that if I do sell the house, there would have to be lawyers involved and I would have to talk to WH. So what would be my proposal? We stay married but separate the proceeds from the house... and keep on as we are? The way things work here, I'm afraid that once I get lawyers involved divorce is the next step.

Anyway, we'll see. In the meantime I'm still in dark plan B and planning on buying the bug for dds.

Hi CC:

It's great to hear from you. I'm glad you enjoyed your trip!

About the house:

Wouldn't it be great to have a place of your own devoid of any traces of him? Is it possible for you to get a place of your own without selling that house? I don't know how that works legally there.

Hi cc -

Echoing what Mimi said, but to add a little more.

I started out thinking that I didn't really care if WW wanted to keep the house, if she could find a way to afford it. But my attorney cautioned me that my name on the mortgage supersedes any other civil (such as divorce) court orders. In other words, if WW kept the house, I had a court order that said she had to make payments, and then she stopped paying, I would still be held accountable by the mortgage company.

Again, laws vary I'm sure...but be careful.

I really, really dread having to go back to "our" house to clean out the rest of my stuff as well as "divide" the other stuff. I'd just as soon give her everything as to go back there and have all that come crashing down on me. But..I know it is inevitable.

My advice: if you do get lawyers involved, make sure you get the RIGHT one for you. Contrary to popular opinion, they are not all the same. Get one that will do what you want, not what he/she WANTS you to do.

Anyway, welcome back.

22 hours until I'm a homeowner!!!

Georgia

thanks for your answers.

My main problem is being in plan B where you are supposed to behave as though you were getting on with your life but remain married! it's weird. I'm not quite getting it right.

In my case if I were to move, which on one hand would be nice, my dds will be living with me, and that means that WH would control "50%" of their lives (at least I hope he'd be willing to) and would be able to have an opinion. I don't know what the laws say here but I do know they are not at all clear cut as they are in USA.

Maybe I will talk to a lawyer. From what I have found out so far I would lose almost everything. I would completely depend on WH's generosity. That´s why I don't want to rock the boat. Financially I'm completely dependant at this moment, mainly because of the girls. So far WH has been generous and is paying ALL the household bills plus most of the girls expenses.

I think I´ll wait a while longer. Only 5 months have gone by and WH is slow to react so we shouldn't expect him make any moves for a while yet.

But I really don´t understand how to carry out a plan B AND get on with your life as though your marriage doesn't exist anymore.

I'm just asking because it's difficult for me to understand legal matters. I've given up on understanding Georgia's situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You said:

Quote

In my case if I were to move, which on one hand would be nice, my dds will be living with me, and that means that WH would control "50%" of their lives (at least I hope he'd be willing to) and would be able to have an opinion.

Are you saying that this is GOOD or BAD that your WH would control 50% of their lives? Do you mean that his financial responsibility would decrease? I agree that would be BAD.

What about the salary that you receive from your present job? Is that not enough for YOU to live on? I can't imagine, though, that your WH would not continue to support your Ds.

You said:

Quote

But I really don´t understand how to carry out a plan B AND get on with your life as though your marriage doesn't exist anymore.

CC:

Aren't you doing this by furthering your career and not contacting him? The next step would be moving into a new house. Could you move and not put your present house on the market?

I'm thinking in terms of you taking some sort of major step to evidence "moving on with your life". However, I agree that you do not want to make a move that would definitely promote a divorce.

CONFUSING, I know.....

Yes all this is a bit confusing...

I believe WH would financially support his daughters, so far he has and has been very generous. Remember when he found out my car had broken he sent me money and the following time he sent me the message to send him the bill... So I'm sure he would but he needs to control us thru money, that's why he told me he would pay all credit cards but took away my access to our joint account and he sends me some cash each month.

Everyone in WH's family believes that people can be bought. that's the way they behave, buying friendships, family, support, etc
I never liked that and mentioned it to WH many times. I pointed it out to him hundreds of times, like when his brothers or his mother called it was always because they wanted money. Otherwise they wouldn't call.
Now he's trying to control us thru money. What I have done is not spent a cent with credit cards except for groceries and gas. In that way he doesn't know what I do. Not that I do anything...

I could not support our present life standard, no way.

I'm not actually being paid my real salary yet and I have no idea when I will be nor exactly how much it will be.

I understand the concept of giving him the idea that I'm moving on and selling the house would be a good move, but selling it won't be easy and finding something acceptable won't be either. Also, I'd have to talk to WH about how much of the sale I could use to buy something else.

Legally I should get half of the proceeds but although that would be fine if I were alone, it's not enough (and not fair) if dds are with me.

Just thinking of having a discussion about this with WH terrifies me.

I have to prepare some paper work for a 2nd job I'm being pressured to go for by colleagues, but when that is over I may contact a real estate agent and see how much I would get for it. Then I'll start looking for something else and see what happens.

Let's take it slowly, I seem to have plenty of time and I really need to be able to not get so emotional about all this.

A couple of weird things that have happened to me with all this. I have suffered from psoriasis for many many years. It started on my right elbow, extended to the left one and about 10 years ago, when I started a very stressful job, extended to my knuckles. Sometimes its better and sometimes it's bad and bleeds etc. Since all this started it has disappeared! completely. I barely have any trace of it. Isn't that strange?
the other strange thing is that my ring finger still has the mark of my wedding ring even though I took it off last october. I keep thinking that it's a sign that the marriage isn't over... but that's just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

update. Might as well report here, since I really don´t keep anyone else updated except my journal.

My friend who works for WH called. I had refrained from calling her because I don´t want to be the one asking for info. She´s the only one who can tell me anything. She says that WH is drinking on the job! That he admitted to her over the phone that he drinks in the afternoons, and that day he was drunk!
I never let him drink much and he was always grateful that I didn´t because he realized that he might become an alcoholic, so I guess it´s not really surprising although it is unfortunate. I guess he can´t be too happy. I can´t stand drunks.

Everything is still secret.

I´m so glad I´m in plan B. The less I know about WH, OW and all the people involved in their dirty secret the better. It really is a brilliant solution.

Dds have changed the shape of my car this week, unfortunately, so I don´t think I´ll lend it to them anymore.

Otherwise, everything is as usual. I´m keeping busy... that´s the main thing.

BTW if anyone is interested, in these last 2 weeks I read Dr. Dobson´s book and Divorce Busting and wasn´t much impressed with either. Maybe it´s the stage I´m in, 5 months of plan B and 7 months from d day.

CC:

This is a sad and unfortunate development.

THE GOOD NEWS? Can we call this GOOD?

He is moving downwards towards hitting his BOTTOM.

I agree with you Mimi. The good thing is that maybe at some fog free moment he will remember how I kept him from becoming an alcoholic years ago. He has always freely admitted that I helped him with that.
I hate alcoholism, don't really know why. It has been said my father was an alcoholic but he died when I was 12 and I have no memories of him drunk or violent or anything, only fond memories. Who knows.

If this new development is true, it is sad but logical that he should be turning to alcohol to solve his problems. Unfortunate. I've just read Dani's thread and re-convinced myself that all I can do to help WH is continue being a better me and praying.

CC:

I've been thinking about you.

Now that it seems that your WH is on this downward spiral, how are you protecting yourself financially? He is obviously self-destructive and OW may have access to his finances.

I'm not understanding why you aren't getting a salary for your job.

What if he stops or no longer can support you and the girls?

Wow, cc...that is some news. It is sad that WH is drinking. My friend that I've been seeing at church went through that with his D years ago. Now he is volunteering with a support group at church for alcoholics/drug addicts and their families.

I really think you're at risk financially as it seems that WH may be unrealiable. I don't know about the laws of your country, but I would be really carefully waiting to see if you WH is going to continue to support you. I don't know what options you may have, but I would take this very seriously.

It's nice to hear from you again.

Georgia

Thanks guys for your answers. I am also worried about financial aspects sometimes but I am not going to be the one to start the "financial war". So far he has done nothing to harm us in that sense, on the contrary, he has accepted paying everything without questioning, so I can't complain. But I am very alert.
I have already been told by a lawyer that no judge here would make him pay all the bills, so legally I should expect a much worse situation. That's why I don't want to go that way, at least until I'm forced to. In spite of my apparent "passivity" in this matter I am keeping all bank statements that are from a joint account we have abroad and have hidden the statements from the account we used to have in case I have to prove assets before a judge.

He's taken the girls to dinner tonight. I'll be waiting and watching.

As for why I'm not being paid yet, Mimi, that's third world country for you. Let's hope I'll have a surprise in a few days.
I have never considered money that important. I have had enough and not enough and it wasn't a major issue for me. If things should end up in divorce, I'm sure WH would take care of his girls and I can manage with very little. Anyway, that's one the things that don't seem that important to me although I don't deny that I'm sometimes frustrated because I don't have the possibility of buying something I should be able to, but I always remind myself how lucky I am. Not everyone is this lucky.

So I will be responsable for waiting on the financial stuff for now.
Haven't had time to read Georgia's thread and I have work to do!!!!!

See how luck I am that I'm so busy....
more tomorrow i hope!

OK, CC. I understand now.

Good to hear from you.

that was quick <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I thought the post had got lost and was going to re post it!
BTW I was busy today because I spent 2 hours at the hairdressers <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

That's a long time at the hairdressers! What type of style did you get?

Actually I didn´t style it. I´m letting it grow. I had it colored. It´s a very good hair salon.

Good Morning, cc -

Just wanted to let you know that I'm still here following your story. I know that things are different in your country and I may have a hard time understanding some of the issues you have to face.

Sounds like you're guarding yourself on the financial issues. I think it may be universal that WS's sooner or later try to exert their "authority" in one way or another, and sometimes it is by controlling / witholding financial support.

Glad you enjoy your job so much. Perhaps sometime you can share more with us about what you do. I suspect you are making a difference in the lives of many people.

Georgia

FGG,

WH is exerting his control from the beginning by controlling all the money he can but so far he has been generous, not denying us anything. He gave dds credit cards and tells them to buy clothes etc.
He gives me a "cash " allowance but expects me to use credit cards so he can see what I spend on. Only problem for him is that I don't spend except for groceries and gas. He must be wondering what I'm doing...
Yesterday he told dds he's decided to buy the VW bug for them, so I won't have to do that.

So I am keeping an eye open but I don't want to be the one who starts the financial issue between us because there is no reason to. It is obvious that he has spent money on OW (I'd rather not know about that) but it is his money and he does not deny he is in an affair, at least to me.

I prefer keeping my plan B and his respect.

thanks for your support.

BTW I think you did ok with WW. At some point you HAVE to talk to them. Otherwise how would you find out if they are ready to give up the A or how can they find out if you are still willing to consider the marriage?
This is something that is not clearly explained by Dr. Harley. I don't remember cases here where the BS explains how they managed that first contact... Recently Caren passed from plan B to recovery but I couldn't tell how it happened... That's what I mean.

Anyway have to work now

Hi CC:

Why do you call your H's money, his money? Since you are married, isn't it also your money? Would he have been able to gain his reputation and status without your assistance?

I was coached by Steve Harley in having brief contact with my FWH towards the end of PLAN B. We discussed this on the forum as a modified PLAN B during which FWH was negotiating with me regarding reconciliation, trying to find his way back home. Steve encouraged me to KISS. KEEP IT SIMPLE. "Get rid of the OW"; "NC Letter", etc.

My concern was the length of Georgia's conversation with his wife, 2hrs. Too much cake....

I must concede that Mimi is right. I could've gotten all the information I needed in 30 seconds or less.

My version of Mimi's SF....2 hours of conversation was unnecessary and counterproductive.

Georgia

Mimi, I, ME, think that it's OUR money, of course. But he has always had a problem with that in the sense that when things are good, it's ours and when they are not, it's him who "has had to work" so that we have what we have. Don't forget that I believe that there is a lot of MLC involved for WH, and one of the things that they think is that they've been working too much and now want to have fun etc..
The way I see it, WH has always been able to ONLY work at what he likes and the way he likes because I was the one who took the kids to school and picked them up and did the shopping, cooking, cleaning etc etc etc.
I'm not complaining about that because I knew from the beginning that he would expect that. It's the way he was brought up, remember, latin country, third world etc. I never wanted to be a SAHM nor did he want me to be. It was hard but I seem to have done pretty well.

Anyway, I still don't see a reason to begin discussing money issues when they AREN't an issue - for the moment. Eventually, if I give up on the marriage and really decide to divorce I guess plan B would be over and I would discuss these issues. Again, he makes that money and he'spaying ALL the bills, every single one and he doesn't complain at all, not one word.

I think he is looking for me to ask for money or spend money with the credit card so he can say something to me. I'm not going to play that game. I don't need him, I choose him, but I will not be bought.
OW is obviously selling herself, she even said in front of another colleague that she wanted an older man with lots of money and that's what she thinks WH is.

Anyway, I'll remember you warned me.

Georgia, I agree that 2 hours was too long, but a few minutes are necessary at this stage to let your WW know that you are still there for her if she decides to end the A. Otherwise how would she know...Her thinking and perceptions must have changed during all these months. She may need reassurance.

One of the things that have struck me most about WS who repent is their fear of being rejected, which is quite logical. One WS escribed himself as a "wounded animal" who was backed against a wall, terrified of his BS's reaction, when he had decided to go back to the marriage.

It's understandable that when a WS repents and wants to get back, the BS is reluctant to talk about the details. I can imagine they are very personal and emotional moments. It's like a surrender I guess.

Anyway, if you really want to know what my job is, I have no problem telling you but I would have to delete it after a while, so we'll do that sometime when you are on line, maybe tomorrow afternoon, (I'm busy in the morning).

BTW, I'm now reading "After the affair". Woke up this morning at 5 and couldn't get back to sleep. Guess it's getting to me.
Do you know it?

Good Morning, cc -

Fortunately, WW hasn't attempted to contact me any more. I've got to practice up the NC thing in my mind in case she appears again (and she will).

Last night I spent a considerable amount of time getting all of my financial records together. Her attorneys request for discovery included all of my financial records for the past 10 years. Of course, there is a limit to what I do have, but I have a stack of paper at least 3 inches thick that I have to copy and get to my attorney.

If you are just now getting to where you can't sleep, or wake in the middle of the night, you're doing a lot better than I did. I've spent lots of sleepless nights. I've not read AFTER THE AFFAIR.

I am now sleeping good. However, that may well be due to the combination of Lipitor, Norvasc, and Lexapro that I take just before I go to bed.

Georgia

FGG, I have slept fine,I actually enjoy sleeping because it's a relief from all the thinking, but once I wake up, whatever the hour, I can't go back to sleep. I start thinking.
I was doing fine until I started reading this book. I DON'T think you should read it now. I have to finish now that I've started, but it's too sincere and truthful. Brings back too many emotions...

anyway, keeping busy is the main thing

HI cc -

I'm back at work because I've got to get all my financial records wrapped up and to my attorney's office by tomorrow. I need my company copier and a lot of my financial stuff is kept at work.

These days I sleep well, but lots of times I will wake up and have a hard time going back to sleep. I'm much better than I used to be, I'm getting where I can think about things other than my sitch at all times.

I've honestly gone through times when I was concerned about my job because I've had a hard time concentrating on my work at times.

I still don't believe I'm as productive as I've been in the past and still have a hard time concentrating many times.

Georgia

I was surprised to see your message at this hour! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I can stop thinking of the situation when I'm at work now because it is very demanding, but I still try to read MB now and then, so I don't quite concentrate completely on the job. Some days like today, I was unable to see MB all day because I was too busy. Tomorrow morning I won't be in the office, don't know what time I'll get back.

Being busy is the best remedy. Weekends are a little difficult because there isn't that much that can take your mind off thinking but this weekend I think I'll go visit a friend. I'll take the dog with me.

I have another friendwho I may call and see this week. She and I were at school together and we had not seen each other for like 20 years until december when we met again. Then she sent me a mail a couple of weeks ago and I told her what my sitch was and she said we should get together soon. I'm a little wary about "friends" because you never know what they think. She has already mentioned that some things you can't go back to... whatever that means. She's divorced but I don't know how her marriage was.
Anyway, meeting people, being yourself for a while, things to do...

Doing all that paperwork must not be too nice. I'm sorry you are having to go thru all that. Isn't it sad? All this is so sad... I don't read many new posters anymore. At least for now.

I kinda like the weekends because it allows me to stay busy doing the things I like to do. Now I can work around MY house, in the flower beds, stuff like that.

Plus, Sunday is church and I usually have lunch with my S's and DIL's, which is nice to be with "family" for a little while.

Amazing how much paperwork I've saved in my desk drawers. WW's attorney asked for financial records for the past 10 years, and I've got a lot of that. I'm making 2 copies, one for her, one for my lawyer.

I've already broken my main copier, telling me to call my service provider. Now I'm using a secondary, slower copier further away from my office. This is really boring and depressing all at the same time.

Hope you enjoy your visit with your friend. Jeb is waiting patiently on me in the parking lot (in the car).

Georgia

I happened to look on the recovery forum the other day and I noticed Stanley was celebrating the first year after d day. among the things he considered he did right is the following:

Quote

Continued to have complete trust in WW in all other aspects of our married life

This is what I mean when I say that I will continue to trust WH on financial issues until there is a reason not to, but I won't be the one to provide it. I have always been trustworthy, and WH himself admitted that before plan B. He could re-write our relationship but so far I have not heard one word in that sense.

BTW I didn't do anythnh of the things I had planned <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But I will e mail my friend to set up a visit.

Strange occurrence today. Let me give you some background.
I met WH at school. He asked me out and told me that he had just ended a 7 year relationship with a girl who was studying the same as we were. We hit it off immediately and after about 2 or 3 months and with no warning I catch him sitting with the ex girlfriend. I don't remember exactly what happened but somehow I found out he was back with her, I know he admitted it, so I just told my family that they were always to say I was out if he called and I never talked to him again. I got on with my life.

I was always sorry that I had seemed to be the OW for this GF, she may have thought I had interfered in their relationship but he had told me it was over and since I had not known him previously I had believed that.

About 2 years go by, I would see him occasionally but we didn't speak at all, as far as I can remember. Then one night I go to a wedding and WH is there and tells me he´s single again and would I like to go out. I was leaving 2 days later for some soul searching period to a neighboring country but I agreed to go to the movies the following day. After that I left, not knowing exactly when I would return. I did not give him my phone number or address or anything and did not make any promises.

From what I remember of those days I did not think of WH at all and spent more than a month away. The day before I planned to come back I got a phone call from WH asking when I was coming home. I was surprised because he must have called my family and they had given him the number.

When I came back we started dating and eventually married etc. I always felt that he had "betrayed" me and although I tried to talk about it WH never wanted to and never said much. Now I know that is CA, of which I am guilty of too although to a lesser degree than WH.

I really didn´t know the exGF but I remember my MIL liked her alot and for a while the exGF would visit my MIL and they would all hide it from me, something which I never understood. As far as I know the exGF didn't hate me but we could obviously never be friends, at least that's what I thought in those days.

During these 20 years I've only seen her a few times and as far as I know WH has only crossed paths with her a couple of times which he told me about. I think she remained single.

When I realized that it was probable that WH was having an affair, I kept thinking that afterall it was in him, he had already done it once when he probably lied to both the GF and me. So she has always been very present in my mind since I still can't help thinking about the A 24/7.
Well today she turned up at my job, to get some papers. I didn't realize it was her but just somebody I thought I knew, and since I was at the door because I was leaving something for the secretary, I said: "I think I know you" and she told me her name and then told me what she was looking for which wasn't in my department and we said bye.
It's incredible that after so many years this was probably the first time we have ever talked to each other. And it has to be now.

She probably doesn't know what's going on but I was so concious of not having my wedding ring on! If she had asked, I would have told her.

Good Morning, cc...

Nice to hear from you again, I've wondered what was going on.

You said "She probably doesn't know what's going on..."

I don't know, seems like an awfully strange coincidence.

I hope that otherwise things are going well for you. I noticed your 24/7 comment about the A. I'm beginning to get where all constant thoughts aren't permeated by WW, and that is very "liberating" to be able to move on with life.

Georgia

Hi CC:

It's great to hear from you.

I just finished reading a thought-provoking novel entitled, THE FIVE PEOPLE YOU MEET IN HEAVEN by Mitch Albom. One of the "lessons" in the book was "There are no random acts..." Everything happens for a reason....

Makes you wonder about seeing that exGF......

Yes, it does seem like a strange coincidence, but it is probably just that. Unless you believe in higher powers and find messages in these "coincidences"...

My wedding anniversary was on a weekday. I had been in plan B for nearly 3 months. I decide to go to church and the gospel is about adultery!

Just before d day I went on a weekend trip. I was walking along a street in shopping district and I hear singing coming from a church, so I walked in and sat down. The gospel was about to begin and guess what it was: the one where Jesus talks about divorce.

Coincidence?

Quote

Unless you believe in higher powers and find messages in these "coincidences

You see what I am saying! I personally don't believe in "coincidences". If we listen and look carefully, occurrences that you have noted happen all the time. For a reason....

And...to add to that.

Over on my thread, you may notice that I showed up at Reggie's house yesterday with a new basketball. I had been hauling it around for over a week, just hadn't seemed like a good time to go by.

I truly had no idea that yesterday was his birthday. I can't relate any "divine urging" to go see him yesterday, but I don't believe that it was just "coincidence".

I, too, believe there is reason behind everything. But I am also the first to admit that I many times don't understand the reason.

Georgia

I believe that GOD'S PLAN is too AWESOME for us to ever understand.

I have learned to try to have FAITH that HE'S WORKING IT ALL OUT for me...for all of us... who BELIEVE and TRUST IN HIM....

Sorry I wasn't able to check in again, but the good thing is that work sometimes keeps me so busy I manage to forget the situation for a while.

Personally I believe in God's plan and I don't always understand what it means. At least at the time things happen.

One of the writers I like because he manages to relate so many small and seemeingly insignificant facts and incidences in his novels is John Irving. Unfortunately real life is not as tidy.

To end this morning's incident, I found out that the ex GF is going to India. Good for her. She seemed happy.

Well today is the 6 month anniversary of plan B and nothing has happened. I still know nothing of WH, he's still WH as far as I know, still living with OW but pretending that he's not.

Not a good day, my feelings are still raw in spite of trying to get on with life and actually having made important changes. Guess I now just have to go on with another 6 months and hope that they will be easier. I chose to do a 1 year plan B.

Good Morning, cc -

As you may be aware, June 6 was the 6 month anniversary of my Plan B. I know it is hard, I'm glad you've got your job and your dog to keep you occupied.

I know Jeb has been a real blessing to me. He is a true lap Schnauzer, the first one I've ever had that is so much into laying in your lap.

However, sometimes he will jump on you when you least expect it. Sunday afternoon I was sitting my recliner drinking a class of milk. Suddenly, there was 24 1/2 pounds of Schnauzer in my lap and milk all over me, him, the recliner, the floor, the walls, everywhere. And...that's not the first time that's happened. He jumped into the middle of a plate of pizza recently.

Anyway, have a good day.

Georgia

I will try, as usual, to have the best possible day.

This weekend I will be busy. Saturday my youngest dd invited us to the theatre (WH is paying) to a funny show which I am sure I will enjoy and sunday I have the 103rd birthday of a family friend of WH's but only MIL and I are invited. Not that that will be be "fun", but maybe interesting and she does deserve to have a great party because she has complete control of her mind and knows everything happening around her.

Tomorrow I'm off to the town where we have the beach house, where the A started probably or at least where WH took OW. Lots of triggers but I have to go for work, and I will manage.

Something is going on with my youngest d. she is very much more attentive with me. I will wait and see what happens. Maybe she's just now getting what is happening...

I still can't believe it, so I'm not surprised that she may be starting to face reality now.

Anyway, that's the sitch.

CC:

I want to let you know that you remain in my thoughts and prayers. I wish there was something that I could say or do to make this better for you.....

Sounds like you are doing your best to have fun. That's a GOOD THING!!

cc -

Amazing about the 103 y.o. friend. Mrs. Reese (my neighbor) it 92 and very mentally aware. Her eyesight is excellent, but her hearing is very poor.

I've got a busy week this week as well. Tonight I've invited the former owners of my home over for dinner. I'm cooking my one really good entree (chicken cordon bleu) along with tossed salad and croissants. The other couple is bringing a broccoli casserole. I think I'll pick up either a cheesecake of strawberry pie for dessert.

Tuesday and Wednesday nights I've got CASA training (the Thursday class is moved to Wednesday this week only).

I'm taking Thursday and Friday off this week, not too sure what I'm doing yet.

Georgia

Hey...i was not able to read all your postings but i have been through plan B and want to show my support to you...let me tell you that plan b works...it did for me...

Either WH comes home or you feel yourself detaching...and it is liberating to feel you no longer feel for WS anymore...

Whatever you do...DONT BREAK SILENCE...there is nothing you can do to help WS...

Focus on yourself...post your ramblings in this forum...

Take care

Thank you FGG and Zizzy. It's good to have someone who has been thru plan B give us some encouragement now and then. Both FGG and I are in this limbo, and at least I have 6 more months because I decided to plan B for a year. Since I have been able to do a strict plan B it is very lonely and I have little to tell. Georgia is more expressive and entertains us with his daily life

CC -

I've never thought of myself as "entertaining", but if you find it that way, all the better.

I suppose my thread has morphed into a "blog"..

Georgia

Georgia:

Quote

suppose my thread has morphed into a "blog"..

How is CC going to interpret this into Spanish? I'm not even sure what it means. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hah...I thought I would impress you all with my new found "hip" (do they still say that?) vocabulary.

I am told (by #1S) that a "blog" is like an on-line journal that isn't addressed to anyone in particular, but anyone who wishes can log on and read it.

At least that's what I'm told....

A quick GOOGLE for BLOG:

"A blog is your easy-to-use web site, where you can quickly post thoughts, interact with people, and more."

Georgia

Actually Mimi, I asked my sister who lives in USA to tell me what a blog was when I was reading Coach's thread and he mentioned he had to write his blog before posting. I think she looked it up on the internet! So I sort of understand what it is.

I tried writing my journal on my laptop but then the laptop crashed! so I decided paper and pencil were best and that's what I do. I keep it locked up, but it's more private than a blog and I think that sometimes that's important too. That's why I recommended Georgia do the same.

Even though his thread tells us about his life, he doesn't really get a chance to express his thoughts and feelings and writing a journal would complement his "blog".

I think you get to a point where people don't want to hear about your lonliness, or sadness or despair. It's not nice for anyone, specially family don't like to see you suffer. So you have to vent somewhere...

There's nothing anyone can really say to make me feel better I guess. I have all the facts, all the statistics, all the examples (and very good ones at that) and all I have to do is wait. I knew from the beginning that even though WH is acting like a typical WS he has always been particularly slow at reacting so he would probably take longer than most.

So I shouldn't be surprised that not much is happening yet. On the other hand, I haven't detached enough yet so even I need more time...

Maybe I need more time than others. I am trying to buld a life as though WH will never come back and I must say that I have a lot to be thankful for. I'm losing the fear of being alone, which terrified me at first. I now know I will manage no matter what happens.

But I'm still sad, I still feel it's a bad dream, I don't recognize my husband in the WH.

After al this time I have realized that in my case the OW is a real predator, and it took her YEARS I'm sure to convince WH to cheat on me. She is the opposite of me in everyway. But he made a choice and he will pay for it very dearly I'm sure. I still feel the need to protect him from himself but I feel surer of my boundaries because I could NEVER EVER go through this again.

Hope I'll need your help to recover my marriage, but if I don't I know I will be a success anyway, thanks to MBand all you guys.

Good Morning, cc -

I can related to so much of what you say. There were, and still are at times, the feeling that I will wake up and discover this was all just a bad dream. I call some of those moments "surreal" because it sometimes would almost feel like I was living outside of my own life, looking in and shaking my head in despair as to how things could be so messed up.

In my opinion, as relates to posting here, I think that in my case I've gotten to a point where I don't think there is anything anyone can say to me that hasn't already been said. I know that if I reported a major breakthrouhg with WW, there were be a legion of folks to show up and help with the recovery. But absent that, what is there to say except I'm working, one day at a time, to build a new life after almost 29 years of marriage?

And I relate to your comment about not seeing your H in the WH. It is so unlike my W to now be WW, I have had to remind myself of Mimi's "alien" analogy so many times. She's gone...replaced by this "robot" that I don't think would bleed if she were cut. This CAN'T be my W, can it?

But other times, I remember the way W used to be, and I asked myself how I contributed to where she is now. I even sometimes wrest with wondering if her life would have been better if she hadn't married me, did I derail her from having a wonderful life with someone else?

But....when I parse through all these feelings, I still come back to the fact that she has made choices that are fatal to our M, and when given an opportunity to "undo" those choices, she has elected to stay with them and explore the consequences.

I can't help but notice how often the OP is the "opposite" of the BS. I don't understand that at all. Is it some kind of animal instinct to experiece a "rush" of something different? In my case, does WW REALLY think that OM will treat her better than his own W, who has to work waiting tables while he sits home all day? It perplexes me that I have treat her like a queen (OM's words to her once), yet she prefers the "opposite" of me, just like you say of your WH. (And, as Mimi reports of FOW).

One of those consequences, I am now convinced, is the eventual insanity, severe depression, and loss of all joy in the life of the BS if not removed from the situation. That is why, even with the pain, lonliness, and despair, I believe separation and even divorce is less painful than life with a WS.

There, now you've heard some of my thoughts...

Georgia

Hey Georgia!

I was on a trip for work today, left 6 am and got back to the city at 8 pm, but I had to go to the supermarket so I met 2 dds there, we had dinner and shopped for groceries and came home a while ago. The place I went to today is where WH has spent all his holidays since he was a child, where I have spent them with him for 20 years and where he was taking the OW on weekends (since working together for 14 hrs a day wasn't enough). I thought I would feel bad, but I was too busy for that and so I survived, and actually enjoyed the work although it is by no means pleasant.

I'm glad you wrote more of your feelings. we need to do that.
I started reading SAA again and at the beginning Dr. H talks of how the WS changes his moral beliefs to adapt them to the A. And he also talks of how the BS can't believe that this is happening to him.

In my case I don't feel any guilt anymore. I have thought and thought things over and I can't find any reasons to feel guilty. I know I have my flaws but I don't believe they had anything to do with the affair. In my case OW is a predator and WH fell for it. I know he was going thru a bad time, maybe midlife crisis and depression but that is no excuse. Doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for him, I still do.

In your case, it is very obvious to me that your WW is also having serious problems with herself. Maybe she is also the kind of erson who takes a long time to react.

I agree that being alone is better than being with the WS. The only posibility of my accepting WH back is if he regrets the A, and obviously gets rid of OW.
I remember my first posts here. Everyone just said, it won't last and dismissed my case as though it was the typical affair between a young and single OW and an older MM. Well that has not been the case. I wasn't too optimistic in the beginning and I'm less optimistic now. I'm sure one day he'll regret it, but I'm not sure I'll be around.

Your situation is quite unique, even on MB. Next year it will be interesting to see what the results are, after 1 + years of this. Maybe we'll be happy... we probably will be by then, whatever the results are. We have a lot of help here.
have to go to sleep. Im too tired tonight.

Hi CC:
I'm up late, getting ready to go away for a few days. We're going to new place that we have never visited. I am so excited. I'm sure you'll take care until I return.

have a nice trip Mimi, enjoy.
We'll try to behave but don't leave us for too long, hopefully we may need you.

Good Morning, cc -

I just wanted to drop in and say "hi".

I feel like we've been left unattended without Mimi here to watch over us!!

Georgia

Hi cc46,

I wanted to know a little more about your sitch. I have now read your thread as well as mimi's thread you searched (thank you mimi for giving your permission to cite thread) and also the thread re PLAN B started by ISGIRL.

All have been helpful to me in better understanding what to expect.

It seems to me that one the most helpful thing about PLAN B is just that: it's a plan and gives BS some 'direction' to follow, because an A is so destabilizing, and the NC with WH is definitely for protection (BS is definitely not high in WH priorities).

I can relate to some of your feelings about your WH, and you now have someone else following your journey. Even though I may not have a lot of advice to offer, you can count on my support and encouragement.

Take care.

You are welcome anytime Luna. I think you are beginning to understand the genius of plan B. It is a plan, you can set a time limit for it like I have and it is for me. When I'm very down I remember that not seeing WH is MY CHOICE because it is better for me. I know it is better for me and I also believe that plan B is the best way to protect myself and my WH during the A. Because I have been convinced that A's must end. the reasons are very logical and common sense. And it has been proved by many. I have researched it.

GG, thanks for checking in. I no longer have access to MB at work so I have to wait to get home now, but the first thing I do is look for your update. Sometimes you've already left for the day.

Not having access at work is actually good for me, I read less and maybe at this point that will be good for me.

Only update I have is that WH seems to be in financial trouble, at least that's what he's saying. He didn't send me the check this month, says he has no money. We'll see what happens.

Otherwise I have no other news about the sitch.

I am doing well at work and this week I have had several ego boosts, both with reference to the present job, and the previous ones! So things are getting better. Nothing could be worse than 2004! Horrible year.

I will make it!

cc46, your snitch is similar to mine on many levels - it's interesting. How my WH is reacting is almost similar to yours. He's moved out a month after D-Day in late May. And I haven't seen him since.

Lately, I also sense he wld most prob fall into serious financial trouble.

We are discussing only about our legal sep deed. After that is done and signed, I'll prob go dark.

Stay strong, cc46!

~A

Thanks Ashley, for your encouragement.

I am getting stronger, because I was really lost in the beginning. I'm not very optimistic about WH coming back anytime soon although I don't believe the A will make him happy either. Unfortunately, since WH is a CA and very stubborn, I doubt he will follow the WS script! I must admit he hasn't exactly followed it uptil now: he admitted the A but said it wasn't the problem, nor was I, he had nothing to criticize about me. Said it was all HIS problem.

He also refused to speak about the situation and moved out promptly when I asked him. He had to go to a hotel for a few days and I'm nearly sure the OW didn't move in with him immediately.

He has "respected" my plan B letter!

Tonight I had a chat with my dds because they are pissed with him but since they meet for dinner or lunch at public places hey haven't really talked to him aout the situation. So I advised the youngest to write to him, because I feel they are getting more and more frustrated in their relationship with him.

I know he loves them very much, but he has been unable to communicate with them... so hopefully this will help.

I hope the financial problems aren't really serious. So far we have been doing well.

I'm sorry you are in this situation too. Unfortunately there is not much advice I can give except that after 9 months here I am convinced that MB is the way to go and the great people here really help.

keep posting and don't lose hope. You will be better off after this if ou follow the philosophy. I'm already applying the things I have learned here to other aspects of my life. And it really works!

Yep.. my WH is a CA as well. Said that it was his problem also! But it was in a "it's not you, it's me" kinda way, which was actually "it's you", get what I mean? Although he was also aware he was actually blaming me without being direct.

He was the one who insisted on separation, and after he made up his mind about that, he shut down completely and spoke to me civilly about financial matters. However, I could see in his eyes and expression that he is not happy at all. If the A and OW made him so happy, he shld be jumping for joy. He's NOT ready to face up to reality.. that's for sure.

He said he was supposed to move out by this past Fri. So far no news from him. Like you, I dumped all his clothes and belongings into a closet. He had removed a few pcs but not all. Perhaps he'd do that this week *Shrug*

Now, he's chasing me for the sep deed to be finalised as he thinks by signing it, he can really move on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I doubt so. Not without facing up to his inner demons.

Thanks for yr kind words.
I hope your dd's will be able to get thru to him in their own way.

I dunno about hope.. I dunno even what I shld hope for!! I waver from having it and losing it many times a day!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

~A

Hope for happiness! hope that you finally convince yourself that happiness depends on YOU and no one else.

Funny enough, I act happy normally because many years ago I read "To love is to be happy with", a book which explains that your happiness is only YOUR business. And it is true. This Tsunami experience my WH's A has produced has stopped me from being happy ALL the time, but when I can get it out of my mind for a few minutes I am happy.

I profoundly enjoy my job and am happy when I'm working on something interesting and I can and do enjoy a beautiful sunny day, a walk on the beach, appreciation of my work...

I just try to be true to myself. I will work on reltionships WITH others but not FOR others as it has been before. And what WH does or does not do should not influence that. That's what I'm working on. Someday I hope to not be affected by him but I know I'm not there yet, hence the importance of plan B for me. Every mention of him, or sighting (of which there have been few Thank God) I fill up with a terrible sense of sadnes and anxiety and anguish. But I'm getting better, the convo with dds yesterday proved that to me.

Hi cc46 - yes, I do know that we are responsible for our own happiness. I even told WH that I will try to live as happy as possible.

I'm not so much in anguish, but I am sad sometimes.. and sometimes angry. However, the longer he is absent, the more comfortable one gets.. and I fear I'm becoming a danger to any reconciliation/ rebuilding. It's just so much easier to let go sometimes, incl hope that the marriage can one day be rebuilt.

Today, I have to email him re: some details abt the sep deed and $$ matters. I dread doing it as it means some form of contact is being continued. (Don't have a reliable intermediary here.) It does hurt that he's chasing me to get the sep deed finalised and signed. It's like cutting off an arm to try to cure a heart attack. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I can't wait to start work on 1 Aug.. then I can occupy my mind on other challenging matters.

~A

Working has really been important for me.

I was in a boring job, actually I was just working at being present at the job, but 3 months into plan B I was offered to change to a very demanding and important job, with some risks attached as job go. During my work hours I used to try to read MB when I had a few minutes. Now my access has been denied. And that has been good.

Work will be very good for you, I'm sure.

The sep deed isn't divorce, I suppose. So what does he expect afterwards?

CC:

I am curious as to how long you have plans to stay in Plan B before proceeding. I apologize if you have answered this already in this thread. I admit to not being thoroughly knowledeable about your situation.

Sour....

I have decided to stay 1 year in plan B. Dr. Harley recommended I stay 2 years but I don't think I can stand it that long. But he was also not at all optimistic about recovery.
Both Dr. Harley and Penny in SYMC say that 1 year is the minimum you should give plan B. Others also talk of 1 to 2 years before divorcing to feel you have done everything possible to save your marriage.

But still, 1 year is the commitment I have made to myself and my family when they have asked how long I will go on without talking to WH.

I know I'm not special or unique but like many others who come here, I can't see where I could have done something to avoid the A. Actually, for many years I felt I was in danger of having an affair because MY ENs were not met and WH refused to care about that. But for several years now I had already made the commitment to myself (as usual) that I would try my best to make the marriage work as unsatisfying and difficult it was for me. By this I mean that WH never made any effort at all to be a part of the family. He loved the IDEA of a family, and he loved being considered the HEAD of the family, but there were NO ACTIONS on his part. He never helped around the house, or with the kids, or with family, etc. The 19 years of our marriage have been spent making his career the way he wanted it. And he has done well. He could have done better but he never accepted my advice or help.

He loved my having a career but I had to study and work while managing the house and the family etc.
Not easy. Unbelievable, but with a lot of luck, I have made it. Just 3 months ago I got the top job for a person with my specialty in my country! Still can't believe it myself and I'm on my best behavior as you can imagine.

On the other hand, WH did encourage me to study and work (although he never offered to help out with house and family to make it easier) and gave me a lot of freedom and financial support. I guess this was very important for me because my family has never shown much support in that area. You see I am a "girl" (I have 5 brothers and 1 sister) and I should have married and been a SAHM specially considering I had 3 kids in 18 months. Or taken a part time job with no strings. But I didn't. I'm the only one of the 7 who chose a university career and to make things even worse I chose to work in the University. So I have been studying for my whole life and always have things to study on weekends!

My mother and my siblings don't understand that. My father died when I was 12. He would have been proud.
Just the other day I gave my mother a business card so that she would be able to say what my new position is correctly.

The possibility of divorce doesn't frighten me any more. I have come to realize that I don't care that much about material things and am actually low maintenance (don't tell Mimi this), so I don't need much to survive. In that sense, plan B is more difficult than divorce would be because I have to live in the house and the conditions we had while married because WH is paying all the bills, but I have no independance because it s far above what I would be able to do on my own. If we divorce I will be able to make my life what I need and want NOW, for myself and my dds.

I don't want to sound presumptious, but I don't feel at all guilty for anything in the marriage. By this I mean that I couldn't find much to do in plan A. Except for being a CA which I am working on. But WH is an even worse CA. He actually said he could not talk to me while admitting that I am his best friend!

Once I realized I couldn't change him, there doesn't seem to be much point in doing more than a year of plan B. The ball is in his court now.

The work that I might take up in August will not be terribly challenging. Right now, with all the stress and financial mess I have to disentagle, I need something more steady/ less stressful. It will not be a long-term gig tho.. because as a personality, I generally thrive on challenges.

Quote

The sep deed isn't divorce, I suppose. So what does he expect afterwards?

No .. it isn't. Over here sep lasts 3 yrs, and then after which, if not contested, the divorce goes thru. The other party (WH in this case) needn't even have to be in court on that day.

I do not know what he expects afterwards!!! I know before he started avoiding me at all costs, he thought we cld be friends! Hell no!!

I do know that after the deed is signed and over, I am plan B-ing all the way. Already right now, communication with him is getting to be an irritating factor. (As you can see in my most recent update in my thread.)

~A

Are you planning on Plan B for 3 years? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Very little choice... Basically we live our separate lives once the deed is signed and there's no further necessity for contact other than anything concerning the sale of the home we are staying now. Due to some local regulation, it doesn't do us good to divorce straightaway and sell the house now. Property market's down and we lose alot of money. More than I can earn in 3 yrs!

We have no kids.. so no need to contact or see each other. I'm not in a hurry to date/ re-marry, etc.. let's see if OW can wait for 3 yrs!

~A

CC:

I'm concerned about the money issue for you. Any chance you will be able to receive a salary soon?

As you well know, affairs are self-destructive. Financial disaster is typical for WSes....

Ashley, I think that you should set a timeline for your plan B. Because plan B means no dating and 3 years is a long time to be alone specially when you don't have anything to tie you to your WH.

It is also said in most places that I've read hat it takes about 2 years to get over a relationship and be able to get into a new one.

That's among the reasons why I chose 1 year for my plan B.
Doesn't mean I plan to date or have anything of that kind in mind (I still have hopes of recovery) but I need to know that I will have the choice to do so. That's the beauty of the plan.

Mimi, I am a little worried about money issues but I'm keeping an eye on a joint account we have abroad. If he touches that I'll run to a lawyer. In the meantime, I'm OK. I'll manage and hopefully this coming month I'll be getting my new salary which should make things easier.

The truth is that I have more than most people, so I really have to be grateful and not complain.

Today my spy friend called but she doesn't have much news. One sad thing she told me is that OW isn't helping her mother at all financially which seems to be making things difficult for her (not that I care) but that she has also abandoned her godchild. She used to pay a private school for this little girl and also dressed her etc. Now it seems OW does not do any of that anymore. I pity the child who is not to blame, but just goes to show what a "nice" person this OW is.

Anyway, today is a holiday so I had my mother and my SIL with the 2 babies over for tea and a friend dropped in so I had a nice family day.

Hey cc - legally, I have no choice but to wait out the 3 yrs. As in the eyes of the law, we are still H and W. As for dating, I'm playing that by ear. First and foremost, I want to resolve my crucial financial issues. Secondly, I want to concentrate on healing and forgiving... Thirdly, I intend to widen my social circle and meet new people thru my new work/ church/ etc. Then I can think/ talk about dating. I'm not discounting the option if I do happen to meet someone new and interesting. However, dating older men here in the Asian scene is blah. Some still hold a stigma against divorced women. Maybe I shld find a younger man. Maybe I shld go come visit you and check out the scene where you are?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> hee hee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Poor OW's mom. I wonder if these people see the effects they've caused. It's like a nuclear bomb.. it still reverberates in ever-widening concentric circles.

~A

Ashley, I do think you have to concentrate on YOU.

Now is the time to forget WSs. Nothing more we can do about or for them. The ball is in thir court.

I'm a bit far away to visit, but you are welcome anytime! It's like a 24 hour plane tripfrom Asia!

I am definitely concentrating on me.. I have things to resolve, things to do, whether he's here or not. I already know, the danger to this marriage is myself. I have a way of moving on and not clinging to things in the past. Life is short. Time doesn't wait for anyone.

Boy, do I know how long it takes to fly there! Once I flew to USA East Coast, and I was telling myself someone would have to pay me tons of $$$ in order to make that ridiculous long flight ever again! It took me 24 hrs to get there as well.

~A

I'm in way way way south america!

yes I saw you mention that in an old post. I think it's going to take more than 24 hrs for me to get there !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

~A

finally something to report!
WH was supposed to go to dinner on friday evening with dds but they cancelled at the last moment because one of dds had a test on saturday so they went to lunch saturday.
When they came back they said that WH was going to the beach house for a week (it is the middle of winter and very cold)! This is very strange. That's where he was carrying out the A taking the OW every weekend before d day. After d day he has practically not gone back there. WTH

Anyway what was more worrying was that he said he would take the dog. Now he hasn't seen or asked to see the dog during the 7 months he has been out of the house, and him being an irresponsible WS, and the dog not being able to tell me what happens, I told dd I didn't agree on him taking the dog.

I also told her why: he has been irresponsible about the dog befoe, leaving him out all night, not feeding him etc but he's dd's dog and she let him go.

Now I'm worried about the dog!

I don't know what this means. Why would he take a week's holiday in the middle of winter?

I coul dtry to check and see whether OW is also "on holidays" but since I'm in plan B maybe I hsouldn't and try not to think about that. Detach?

Last night I went to my aunt's 80 th birthday party at an excellent hotel. The whole family was there and I must admit I did not feel at all uncomfortable. I also had a good time and a great meal.

Today I got together with my brothers and mother for lunch and then went to play cards with aunts and a friends of theirs. These old ladies are interesting because they always have some life stories to tell.

Anyway the day is nearly over and this week I won't have to worry about any sightings or smells!

Been quite a while since I updated but there is nothing real special to tell.
WH is back to being considerate with dds AND me, which is strange since apparently the A is still going strong. OW even wrote out the check for me this month!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow is dd3's 17th birthday and WH has bought all the food and drink and will have it sent to the house. He also sent an electrician over because we were having some problems. And was going to pay for him. I wonder what he said to the guy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> See, they are sooo detached they act as if the whole thing were normal. It's very weird.

Today is actually WH's father's birthday, now that I think of it. His father had a great influence not only on him and his brothers but the whole family and lots of friends. I never met him, but he must have been a very special person.

Last weekend I visited one of WH's aunts and her son and W showed up. Everyone was so glad to see me. We did not mention WH or the A, but I actually had a good time. The not so good news is that WH's cousin is getting married in february and I am invited. I'm not going to think about that for the moment.

Anyway, that's how things stand. I can't interpret them. But nothing seems to have changed.

On the other hand I seem to be feeling stronger, but I know that part of that is due to the fact that I haven't seen him at all. Tomorrow MIL will probably come. I haven't seen her or talked to her for nearly 2 months. The last time I got the impression that she was as confused as I about the whole situation, but who knows...

Job is still exciting, I'm doing a course on GIS in the afternoons and keeping busy. But I have still to grieve or mourn my M. I'm not over it. Should I be? I have no idea...

CC:

Glad to hear from you.

It's great that you are continuing to enjoy your job.

Of course you will continue to grieve over your marriage. How could you expect to be over this so soon?

Happy Birthday to your daughter!

Today is my grandmother's birthday. She passed away last year. I will always celebrate this day though. She was an "angel on Earth".....

Take care....

Hi Mimi,

the main point is that I don't feel my M is over but it could be that I'm just avoiding it. That's why I'm not mourning it yet. The problem is then, when will I?

I guess I'm not ready. Sometimes I feel like getting it all over with so I'm glad my plan says I have to wait a year, so I plan what I will do after that which is file for divorce I guess. Maybe that will let me start the real grieving.

It's a tough situation.

CC:

Remember to have as much FUN as you can each day.

ENJOY THE PRESENT...TRY NOT TO THINK SO MUCH ABOUT THE FUTURE..

Trust in the LORD...

cc46, yr situation is almost similar as mine. WH is still MIA, not communicating unless I've asked him about $$$. He hasn't transfered the $ yet for bills. And I am tired of reminding him. So, even I don't really want to, I still have to email him.

He really is becoming more and more detached. It's been 3.5 mths frm D-day and a month of him moving out and nothing's changed either. In fact, it's just that.. {{{ silence }}

I also understand the feeling of just wanting to get it all over and done with.

I've been studying for a series of tests so my brain has been kept busy. Good thing. Now, someone has offered me a potential job, and the tests are for another kind of job.. I wonder if I shld just go for the interview for the potential one.. Hmmm... See.. I'm moving on slowly. LOL

Take care.

~A

Ashley,
it's been nearly 8 months of plan B.

I always knew that it would take WH more than normal people to react but I had hope he might react sometime. Seems to me that he's already settled in his new life....
Yesterday I saw my MIL again. She told us that BIL has a GF who is divorced with 3 children and STBEx SIL has a BF who is 20 years younger than her! Terribly messy situation for their 2 kids who are 9 and 6 years old. I never got on very well with SIL who was originnaly a WS but MIL said that she had phoned me several times, none of which I knew about. So I grabbed the phone and called her.

She was very sympathetic, pointing out several times how horrible this situation must be for me, much worse than hers! Serves as a confirmation for me that my M must really have been good for even somebody so disrespctful of the institution to sympathize with me.

I have nothing in common with her so I just called her to be polite.

Anyway, dds birthday is over. Next family event is Xmas and plan B anniversary (26th dec).

cc -

Do you still plan a one year Plan B, then Plan D?

Georgia

Yes that´s what I PLAN, but until that year is over I really won´t make the decision. I don´t think I have many options, living in this grey zone is not nice.

Will you be financially secure next year?

I really don´t know. To find out what the law is I would have to talk to a lawyer and I think that WH would take that as an aggressive move on my part specially as he is financially providing for us as he promised. From what I have been able to find out from a lawyer friend, the law would not require him to give me much, probably very little. It would depend on what we agree between ourselves mainly, so my lawyer friend does not recommend I take any legal action.

So I will wait for the end of the year of plan B and depending on the situation at that moment I will decide whether to file for divorce and then I will start worrying about finances.

Not much I can do about it now. Might as well keep these conditions while I can.

I understand. That sounds like a very precarious position to be in considering your WH's actions.

Georgia

cc46:

quote:----------------------------------------------------
I don't feel my M is over but it could be that I'm just avoiding it. That's why I'm not mourning it yet. The problem is then, when will I?

I guess I'm not ready. Sometimes I feel like getting it all over with so I'm glad my plan says I have to wait a year, so I plan what I will do after that which is file for divorce I guess. Maybe that will let me start the real grieving.

It's a tough situation.
------------------------------------------------------------

I have the same concerns as you. By not settling the 'financial' aspects of the M or by not proceeding with a D, PLAN B also feels like a 'limbo' period. It lessens the pain by not seeing WS, but by putting off the 'legal' aspect of the end of the M, I feel still very much 'tied' to him, but in the meantime he is making a "new life" for himself with the OW! Like you say: "living in this grey zone is not nice."

I guess, like I told one of my friends who was wondering what I was waiting for to start the D proceedings, thinking I was 'hoping' for a reconciliation or wanting to "avoid" the unavoidable, I found myself telling him that I didn't think a reconciliation was likely but that I was not going to 'rush' the D proceedings because I was focusing on 'healing' myself emotionally before this next 'final' step. But I think deep down I am still hoping for a reconciliation, and won't 'move on' or really grieve the M until the D happens. I think in Plan B the BS is buying time to process the idea of the separation, dealing with the many practical and emotional changes, etc., but the final blow will be the D, and right now I think it will be hard, but necessary. And in your case it sounds like a D may turn out not be to your financial advantage.

I have to admit, part of me would very much like the D to happen, the quicker the better, but that's just because I would hope it would stop the pain and help me move on quicker. But like some of the "wise" here have been telling us, a D does not do that - done too quickly it may be just cause for regrets later on!

Like you, I am OK so long as I don't see WH. But, I guess it would be good to work towards getting to a place where we would be OK even if we see WH. In my case, right now, WH lives in the same neighbourhood. It's practical for the boys, but I worry about running into him, and how would I feel and what would I say! It would feel strange after spending 20 years with someone to all of a sudden feel like strangers, and not have anything to say!

I guess, cc46, it being new territory, a BS needs to be patient with himself/herself to explore it, with some guidance from the 'wise ones' who have been there already.

I am glad that this Board allows us to support each other and feel less alone. I feel it really makes a difference.

I will be thinking of you.

Georgia,

I don't want to get aggressive even if it means I lose financially. It;s not my style. Everyone surrounding WH, including his family and WH himself and most obviously OW believe that money is all that matters, EXCEPT me. And he knows that. I'm not going to change now because I have not come to believe that money is what most matters in this life.

I had plenty as a child, I had very little when I married WH and we barely made it through the month, and we were starting to enjoy it when the emotional tsunami took place.

If I have to start all over again, I will. I don't lack anything now and I'm much better off than a lot of people. I will also eventually be free to work as much as I can and I will obviously take another job if I can. I will make it. It was rather frightening in the beginning but I'm getting over that. And WH has behaved quite decently with us in that sense.

Luna,

I believe plan B is necessary because the natural history of As do require quite a lot of time to go by before you can be sure that the WS will not regret what he has done. So in order to survive that period where you as a BS are still committed to your marriage and hoping that your BS will realize what he is doing, the best option is to detach from the whole thing and wait for the A to die a natural death. 1 year is the shortest period that is recommended from what I have read. Dr. Harley told me to wait 2 years, but didn't really give any explanations for that. From SAA one can deduce that Dr. Harley thinks that in 2 years the A is over and recovery is possible or it is not recoverable. Basically that is what he told me.

I will be in plan B, hoping for recovery for 1 year and the I will review the situation. If things are the same, I may file for divorce in february. But until then I am in plan B which means that I am waiting and hoping. This is the difficult part.

Have you read Cruz's thread? He is a WS who regretted it. He expresses his experience very well.

There are many stories here written by WS who tell you that they needed some time to get over the addiction and realize what they were doing. I want to make sure that I give WH a fair chance of regretting the whole thing. If I file for divorce sooner than 1 year, knowing that the natural history of As does make them go on for a while, and also knowing that WH is stubborn and slow to recognize his feelings, I would always wonder if I hadn't given him the opportunity he needed.

BTW, I feel like a stranger to him, rather he feels like a stranger to ME. It feels like it's happening to someone else.

My dds have adapted well to the situation. But it has taken them a while too. We have now settled into a new routine and are enjoying each other, but it has taken a while.

Patience IS THE NAME OF THE GAME. I hate that, but it's true.

Quote

BTW, I feel like a stranger to him, rather he feels like a stranger to ME. It feels like it's happening to someone else.

cc46, I can understand that feeling v well. Wonder if that's a consequence of us detaching from the situation??

~A

I'm not sure it's detaching because I can't seem to NOT THINK of WH all the time, but it's a bit frightening to think that I'm trying to "recover" a relationship with a stranger!

I hope that it's like Orchid says: this stranger is the WH and I'm looking for my H. He's still lost.

CC:

He will not be himself until HE has NC with the OW. You are missing your H, the man who was not involved in an A. Your H CAN return after withdrawal from her.

It's my hunch that the A will eventually end.

The question is will YOU still be there.....

Well, she's still around and I don't think she plans to disappear anytime soon. As I explained before she has an "excellent" job, pays really well and includes bed and board and all the extras....

How would he get rid of her? I don't see it happening any time soon, so the question really is will I be around? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So far I'm OK waiting until january next year. My 1 year plan B ends december 26th but lawyers here are on holidays in january so I have to wait till feb to start anything. At the same time january is my birthday and dds birthday so it is a "special" month.

I'll think about it in february. In the meantime I don't care for the stranger...

cc46 - yep they are still lost. I told WH that my H is lost.

We still have to communicate by email because we are trying to sell off an overseas property investment due to our tight financial state (WH's fault!). I wish I needn't have to do so.. there just isn't a suitable trustworthy intermediary and using a lawyer is way to expensive. Later on, I might just ask my Mom to deal with WH directly re: monthly fin'l support.

Quote

I don't see it happening any time soon, so the question really is will I be around?

You're not alone on this, cc46. I ask myself this question almost every day.

~A

The solution is not for the OW to "disappear". Your WH has to come up with a PLAN to end his R with her. IT IS POSSIBLE! The question is WHEN will this HAPPEN? If he can put a HOLD on his R with you after all of these years, he certainly can END his R with HER.....

Remember that for him, I kicked him out. He never made "any decision". He would always answer, I don't know, or he just didn't answer and would stare at me. Conflict Avoider!

So it would take extraordinary events to make him do something about the R.

Next week there is a party at his school. he has invited dds. He is still pretending that nothing is going on with OW... and she seems to be OK to be "socially" excluded from his life. Sick

CC:

You don't remember a time when he showed that he loved and cared for you? You don't think that your history together matters? You don't think that he at least reminisces about you when he is with your DDs? You see him as that incompetent that he could not work out a PLAN to get rid of her? You think that she is actually more powerful and capable than he is when he puts his mind to something?

I have to think about that. He seems such a different person...

I can remember a time and not too long ago when he was so proud of his family, all of us, me, his dds and even the dog. Heck, last Xmas he was even behaving like the "head of the family" hosting the Xmas party for both our families and friends! It is so sad.

It's just been soooooo long now.

of coz the OW wants to be socially included. That's their goal. I wonder how that's going to work out with MIL though. I'm not quite sure if MIL will side her son in the end even tho' she just abt screamed bloody murder to WH when he revealed that he had moved out of the house.

I too don't know how my WH will be working out a plan to get rid of OW.. he already sure did a paln to get rid of me! {{ wry laugh }}

Guess we just keep moving on one day at a time huh?

~A

Ashely,

my point is that "my OW" doesn't seem to want to be socially included! She doesn't seem to mind not being asked to any events, or even that their whole relationship is still secret!

But yes, we do take it one day at a time... sigh

You mignt be surprised by this idea.

However, I was thinking. Since you did such a short PLAN A, going into PLAN B perhaps prematurely, had you thought of communicating with him some to see what his current thinking is..

This came to mind in thinking about his R with the OW. He is keeping her as a MISTRESS, not wanting to legitimize their R, not acting as if he is "in love" with her....

I agree Mimi. This is not a typical A, he is keeping her as a mistress and apparently that is all she is interested in. According to one of her co workers, she only wants the money and doesn't care about anything else.

Official plan A was short, but actual plan A was over a year.
The official plan A had NO EFFECT. He was coming home late at night and leaving early in the morning, spending all day with OW. On the weekends he would "have to work" and spend it with OW too!
Exposure had no effect because he just avoids everyone and lives in secret

Nothing has had any effect! this is frustrating...

Maybe I should ask Mortarman what he thinks...

I would talk to him at this satge if he wanted to. I won't make the first move because what would I say? I know he hasn't ended the A, and he doesn't seem interested in me, so I would have to tell him that since he is getting what he wants I want a divorce! What other choice is there?
I can't tell him to come home and keep his mistress???????

That's why I'm not going to initiate the conversation yet.
Maybe february...

I think it's a GREAT IDEA to ask MM's opinion...

Start a new thread, calling him out, MORTARMAN, PLEASE HELP ME... or however you feel comfortable in titling it

Maybe say, MORTARMAN AND OTHER VETS....

ok. I'll write first and then post it today

The OW will NOT want t/b treated as a 2nd class citizen in the A for long. That is just how she gets her feet in the door.

Be on the look out for her to want to spread her wings and take over your name, title, property and everything else her greedy stinky hands can get them on. Greed is key to an A. Integral part, just because she seems content, she won't be forever.

She will soon want your place in his life.

L.

Orchid,

I am surprised that she hasn't made any moves yet!

She is a real predator OW. The other secretary told me that once they were chatting, OW, WH and her and OW said she was looking for an old man with a lot of money! That's all she wants, apparently but I keep waiting for signs of her becoming more demanding.

Hasn't happened yet and it's been almost 8 months...

OW is being placated and for now she will settle for it until she can see when she can get her grubby hands on more. You have powerful info knowing she is after the $$. Go protect your family's assets.

L.

Only way I can do that is document whatever I can which I already have done and speak to a lawyer withut WH knowing. Now I planned to do that in december to prepare for the divorce filing.

Now, If I understand this interpretation of As as presented by Harley and several others, we have to believe that most As do not end up as long term relationships so we, BS have to have patience and wait for them to end, in order to give our Ms a chance of recovering. In the meantime we should present the WS with the best person we can be (plan A) so that it is what he/she remembers when the fog begins to lift or reality starts to penetrate the fog.

I know that so far I have been able to be the person that WH married. I have done nothing to earn his mistrust. This is very important in our relationship because WH doesn't trust ANYBODY. He used to be paranoid and suspicious of everyone except me. In that sense everyone could see what a special relationship we had. Even his family.... they were not trustworthy and they knew that he trusted me more than them.

So that is one bond between us that I don't want to break, even though he has. It's like the marriage vows, he broke them, but I haven't. I don't plan to either.

CC:

I may have asked you this before BUT...

What do you think is his attraction to the OW?

How can you make him aware that she is probably a golddigger..

Do you think she makes him feel like a rescuer?

Truth is I can't imagine what attracts him to the OW except that he can feel so superior to her.

I don't think he respects her, nor admires her. He himself told me once that OW's GF had studied english and was more capable than OW.

The way I see it, he has been depressed for a while, and she has taken advantage of that.

He has acted and felt guilty. He hasnever defended her.

But WH is uch a different person than H that I don't know...
It is so confusing.

When I told my mother I thought she would say it was my fault because she has always blamed me for not being the mek housewife, but she didn't. She is still as surprised as I am and can't understand how he could do this. Nobody can believe it.

Do others say that he seems depressed now?

Do you think she builds up his self-esteem by allowing him to feel superior to her?

What do your DDs say about how he is? Does he seem different to them?

Still you need to be safe. After you are comfortable with your improvements, move to plan B. Anything less c/b enabling the A. See if you can talk with Steve 1st or maybe e-mail him?

JMHO,
L.

Mimi,

Dds don't say much. Their attitude has been: "that's Dad...." Others have said he seems depressed, doesn't talk much with anybody.He avoids people.

Orchid, I already moved to plan B 7 and 1/2 months ago!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

That's the whole point of this thread. Absolutely nothing has happened. We seem to have established a plan B relationship for life!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So the question is, do I stay in plan B for the time I planned to (1 year) and then get divorced or is there anything I should do? I know filing will shake him, but if I do, I'll go through with it and that's not what I want yet.

Does anyone think that there is a chance that he will want to recover the M or is this personality change for life?

Stay in plan B. Change moves slowly in the fog. The WS and OP don't have a good grip. The fantasy needs to wear off.

IMHO, in your case this c/b to your advantage. He isn't getting any younger. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,

I live in South America. Although calling Steve is not impossible it would be very expensive.

I wrote to Dr. Harley and we exchanged several e mails. He did not seem too optimistic and told me to wait for 2 years by which time I would either be divorced or recovering. He seemed to imply that being southamerican made this A worse.

Update:

Last tuesday WH finally invited dds to his apartment. OW was nowhere to be seen but she had left a t shirt hanging out to dry so one of dds noticed. He has never admitted he lives with her to his daughters, or anyone else that I know of.

Today I was driving to work and we met at an intersection. I looked straight at him. He looks so strange. I could tell that he saw me. OW was beside him.
later he had lunch with dds, he's going on a 2 day trip tomorrow.
He still calls them all the time.
He's paying all the bills, and other stuff.

A couple of weeks ago he moved the last part of his job out of the house but he still hasn't sent us the house keys back.

I've got the name of a lawyer so I can find out what divorce means, here, but I haven't called yet. I have been a bit depressed these last 2 weeks but since yesterday I have felt better.
That's about all. Not much progress....

I usually keep up with your thread. And you are right, a good Plan B is boring. No upheavals and drama.

Thanks Believer for reading. I really admire you, after all you've been through, you can come and help so many here. Including me.

Plan B is boring but I hate drama, so it's fine for me.
WH also hated drama.

So who knows... I'm committed to a 1 year plan B, and I'll stick to that.

I think that is a great idea - give it a year. Plan B is boring, and I found that there was not a lot to post about when I was in it. But it is what helped me heal the most.

I couldn't come up with a better alternative. and I really thought about it...

I play tumblebugs on the computer now...

Hi cc46,

I am glad to hear you're feeling better, I was starting to wonder....

I have some similar concerns about PLAN B, too.

I am seeing it as being "stuck" in my personal recovery (because WS should not even be in the picture), but don't know what to do about it. And so, I am taking it one day at a time. For me, having small 'personal' projects seems to help - not ready yet to committ to big ones, and I try on a regular basis to ask myself the question: What do you feel like doing right now, later? and giving myself permission to do it.

If I am really really stuck, I tell myself: you can always be part of a triangle! All of a sudden, walking my dog seems like a terrific idea!

Asking the vets for advice like you intend to do is definitely a good idea.

Take care.

{{{{{{{{{cc42}}}}}}}}}

I'm going to try out TUMBLEBUGS this weekend. I read the reviews and looks like it might be fun. I tend to like the mahjohng(?) games though. What do you like about TUMBLEBUGS?

I love Mahjong and had a classical one on every computer!!!!
I've just taken it to my work computer but haven't had a chance to play again.

Tumblebugs has a hypnotic effect. Unfortunately I haven't bought it so I play the trial version for 5 min many times. I'm on level 8, but I've stuck there for quite a while.

I guess I like the colors and the movements..
anything to take my mind off the usual. This limboland is not the best place to be. I agree with you that divorce is horrible, but when your WH lives with OW there really doesn't seem to be much choice after a certain period of time...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

CC:

I've bee addicted to TUMBLEBUGS over the past few days..

I'm thinking about playing now...

Have you tried the game LUXOR? It is similar to TUMBLEBUGS..

I told you it was addictive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Do you have the full version? How far did you get?
I'm stuck on level 8 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I ahve been for at least a week.

Better not go find other games. I have to get out more although it soesn't seem to be much good at this point. Yesterday I went to my aunt's 76th birthday tea and then to a wedding. Today I'm feeling more depressed than ever! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This is not getting better. I'm not getting better.so I'll have to keep playing tumblebugs! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Life is not bad at all. I have my great job which is still exciting although I don't exactly feel that excited about it, I have just got a new job teaching on the internet which apparently will pay well (details still to come), dds are doing well, WH still pays the bills, but I'm not getting better.

I know the facts, but I can't get my heart to understand.
I'm really just trying to make it one day at a time! and it's been nearly a year since d day

I can't get past LEVEL 2...

don't lose hope, just keep practicing. I'm going back to level 7 to collect some lives (hopefullu) to try to get past level 8

cc46,

Just wanted to encourage you in your Plan B. It sounds like you are doing great. Better than all of the drama. How long have you been in Plan B?

My WH has been gone for 11 days and even though it is hard, it has to be better than living as part of a triangle.

I read Mimi's Plan B thread that you have referenced. Does Mimi have a recovery thread too? Just in case our WHs ever get smart?!?

lwar, I've been in plan B nearly 9 months. WH hasn't tried to contact me. Of course it's better than being in the triangle, but it's hard to pretend to get on with my life when I have this situation.

I haven't become at all indifferent.

I don't know about Mimi's recovery thread,we'll have to ask her.

I don't have a Recovery thread per se.

I've been all over the place here.

Do you think that would be helpful?

I've been thinking alot about not coming here as much.

However, I feel like I would be abandoning my friends.

I wonder if it would help me to stop thinking about As so much..

Hi, cc46--Thanks to whoever boosted this thread to the top where I could find it. That way I won't ask you any more silly questions about your Doofus that could've been answered simply by reading what you'd already put down!

t&l

cc - It took me about a year and a half to feel good again. Hang in there and don't give up.

Mimi, I already gave you an opinion on your thread. You were a great help to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am very grateful to you. Maybe you haven't noticed but infidelity is different at different stages in life and you,I, Georgia and a few others are in the "young midlife group", which is not the same as most of the others here. Not having small children makes a big difference.

Have you ever read Gail Sheehy and her theory of "life passages"? Fascinating. I recognized the symptoms of the passage into maturity in myself. I felt more assured and less worried about what others thought. I expressed myself more freely. All this was before WH's weird behaviours and the A.

So, you are important to those of us who can identify with you.

Believer, thanks for the experience. I have decided that I have to do something about myself and since WH would not talk to me before, and I'm now in plan B I have decided to write to him. Although I won't send it to him. At least I'll get it all out. Maybe it will help. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hi cc46:

Your WS has not given you any "signs" so far. Were you expecting him to by now? How do you feel seeing that he hasn't?

I guess I am wondering if you are like me. I may not want to, but I know that deep down I would like a 'sign' from WS that he is questioning his decisions. Since the likelihood that he will are not so high, I should not be surprised to experience disappointment over it. Hard to tell when it will happen though.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
I'm now in plan B I have decided to write to him. Although I won't send it to him. At least I'll get it all out.
----------------------------------------------------------

I think this will help.

PLAN B is not being in a relationship. It's not what we want. BS is making the best of a bad situation, because I think a BS (if you are like me) wants to be in a relationship, with FWS, if possible.

I don't know about you, but guess what I seem to notice the most in PLAN B? Others that are in a relationship.

How do you feel right now about the possibility of having to go to the 'next step' at the end of your one year PLAN B?

I am going to dish out your own advice to me: think of something special you have always wanted to do but have put off doing and do it, because as one commercial puts it: YOU ARE WORTH IT!

Hugs.

Luna, I'm not sure I want WH back. Actually I'm not even sure I want H back! I sure don't want the marriage we had back.
I couldn;t accept that now.

When I first posted here all I got was "don't worry it won't last". Well he's been living with OW for nearly 9 months(in secret), so I guess you could consider it has lasted.

Not one sign, except indirect ones that seem to actually support what he said he would do which was be reponsable for us. He's paying the bills, all of them. Anything that is on the credit cards he pays. He sends me money for stuff that has to paid with cash. He recently went to the beach house (with OW) and when he goes there he goes shopping across the border. Well this time he bought all my favorite cookies.

But not one word.
I think recovery would be a lot of work and I just don't see him even trying. He has never had to work for anything in his life! He has been so lucky that he has always done what he wanted to do, and never what he didn't want to.

For example, he never took his daughters to a children's birthday party. He doesn't like small children.

I did all the things he didn't like to do when they had to be done.

So I wouldn't go back to that, because now I am entitled! That's what plan B does for you!

just a small update.
A co-worker of WH's came by just to give WH a message. I answered the door. When he told me what it was about I told him that we were separated because WH was having an affair. Poor guy! he felt very awkward.

Should I still expose like this?
I never really exposed to his co-workers because I don't see them and WH has little contact with them. So most have no idea.
I feel like I have to stand up for myself, and not enable the affair by keeping it secret like WH and OW do.

Yesterday I read a book. I finally unerstood some things about plan B. It doesn't mention how long it should be in her book, has mentioned elsewhere that the MINIMUM is 1 year. Dr. Harley also insists on a 2 year period from d day until it is over, whatever the result is. So they all seem to agree that 1-2 years is the period during which a BS has to fight for the marriage.

Another interesting thing it says in her book is that during plan B one should "enjoy oneself" as much as possible. No need to read about As or relationships. Of course the two things that are not allowed is dating and FILING FOR DIVORCE. This is interesting because I was thinking of filing after one year. Now maybe I'll wait a bit longer.

The main point I learned that this whole business for the BS is about protecting the MARRIAGE.

I'm almost at the 3 year point and have finally filed for divorce. Take your time, there really is no hurry. When you get to the place where you are ready to file, you won't have any doubt.

You're probably right, when the time comes I'll know.

My first reaction on d day was to file, but then I found MB, and I've been here ever since.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Now I have a lot of knowledge but except for MB, I have no one to share it with <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I{m rereading SAA.
You always learn something!

Interesting to me, very interesting.

Lem

LM, are you being sarcastic?

You're up early. Good morning to you. Good night to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

as usual, but I'll be off to work in a few minutes and there I can only read, not write to MB.

Just read your thread. Very sad story.

I tell myself that as long as it has a happy ending, it won't matter that lots of the chapters were pretty soggy!

t&l

Quote

LM, are you being sarcastic?

No, I was just making a comment that I thought what you posted was "interesting", at least to me. Nothing more or less.

Lem

Quote

Should I still expose like this?

OOPS! I thought we had suggested this to you.

Expose to anybody and everybody!!

Thanks Mimi. I do not feel exactly "right" about exposing because most of the people I would now expose to, are not really friends (these already know) but on the other hand I don't want people to get the wrong impression.

This poor guy felt so bad! I hadn't seen him for years and then I go and dump this on him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

These last few days I'm feeling much stronger. Hopefully it will last.

Hi cc46,

quote:----------------------------------------------
When I first posted here all I got was "don't worry it won't last".....it has lasted.
----------------------------------------------------

It sounds like you were expecting it not to last. The reality is that it has.

When this happens to me, I ask myself:

Can anything be done about the reality? If the answer is "no", what's left to work with is: the expectation. If it's not in line with reality, 'expect' disappointment.

I can propose you try a couple of things I am trying these days and see if they work for you:

a) a 'new attitude' towards expectations: don't believe it until you see it. If it doesn't happen, I am less upset.

b) Before I go to bed, wanting to finish my day on a positive note and give me a chance at some peaceful sleep, I think of all the things I appreciated in the day. This puts a smile on my face more often than not.

Whatever you do, don't forget you are not alone.

{{{{{{{{{{cc424}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks Luna.

I am feeling a lot better since I finally accepted that I AM doing what is best with the knowledge I have acquired here and elsewhere. Like most say, the "treatment" of infidelity is counterintuitive, which is why it is dificult to accept at first.

But now I am convinced that I am doing what is best for my marriage and for me.

YOU ARE DOING GREAT! and I'm not the only one who has noticed....

Thanks cc46,

Glad to hear your doing better, and thanks for the encouragement.

PLAN B, at its 'minimalist' (if the word exists), has one thing going for it, it's a 'plan'!**

Have a good weekend.

** This comment can be attributed on the natural movement of speciman LUNA's attempts at changing attitude about life, going from one extreme to the other (high expectations to low expectations), and who should shortly be moving somewhere in the 'middle' of the scale to 'reasonable expectations', until then, don't expect much from her.

CC:

It does not matter...

Expose to any and everybody in order to bring the A out into the light..to get it out of the cover of secrecy and darkness...

Why does it matter if the person is a friend or not?

You are not doing anything WRONG by exposing the A..it is your WH that is doing WRONG by having the A...

I know I AM NOT doing anything wrong by exposing, but people here react by disappearing! Even people I have told thru e mails have never written again!

I am actually a bit surprised about these reactions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have only one friend who calls me to get together every couple of weeks or so. Thank God for my family and you guys!

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but people don't seem to want to know!

Quote

Well he's been living with OW for nearly 9 months(in secret), so I guess you could consider it has lasted.

I just had to comment on this. I was married for 18 years - thats a lot longer than 9 months!! and yet I am divorced today. I would not consider that my marriage lasted.....and I don't think that 9 months together means that their A has lasted either.

I was just sitting here trying to recall how long my Ex's relationship with OW#1 lasted - and I think it was right around 9 months. He moved back in with his mom so he could "save money" but they were supposedly still "together". Then he found an apartment that was closer to work for him,and said they were still "together" but they were going to live separetly until her D was final and they could get married. After awhile he just quit giving excuses for why she wasn't living with him anymore.
So I don't know when they officially quit seeing each other but it was somewhere between 9 - 12 months. No big explosion, just a slow fizzle out.
That realtionship is definately over now. He is now married to OW#2.

I don't know if you will end up back with your WH or not - I just wanted to share with you that 9 months together does not mean that their R has lasted.

Oh, and just so you know, my Ex did try to get back together with me when his relationship fizzled with OW#1. But by then we were all ready D, and I had matured far beyond him.

Thank God you commented! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There aren't many As on the forum that last this long fortunately.

Just before the forum changed I had started a poll to see how long plan B had lasted for others, but it was lost!

In spite of that, having re-read SAA a couple of days ago and then Penny's book, I think that maybe there is still a chance for my marriage because 9 months may not be that long after all.

It seems like ages! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I've been married 19 years too.

Thanks WOF.

You said:

Quote

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but people don't seem to want to know!

I don't think it's cultural, CC. I think this is human nature. Lots of people want to live in denial of reality. They are afraid if you are willing to expose the ugliness in your life that you might put a lens into their lives or they may be compelled to be open with you.

It's in times like these that you will discover your true friends. Folks that failed to contact you are not your true friends. They wanted to have a superficial relationship with you.

My H and I scare a lot of people. Some folks want to run away when they see us. It seems that they don't know how to handle the realness of life.

Exposure and honesty is always best. It's BOLDNESS a sense of boldness that will not only help you but will compel others to grow. It will help you learn who are your true allies..

I'm no longer in contact with several people whom I thought were friends. We are developing new friendships which are more meaningful and true...

Nine months is really not that long for an affair. My WH's has been going on 3 years now. It is just starting to show signs of not lasting.

So hang in there.

I know what you mean about people not wanting to hear. Practically none of our friends or family supported me fighting for my marriage.

My family has supported me even though they really don't want to talk about it much except for my SIL. She and my mother were really the only ones who called and came to be with me the first few weeks and one friend. This friend is a former OW, a long time ago. She's now been married for 20 years.

I don't think my "friends" who don't actively "support" me are not "friends". I can understand how uncomfortable they feel. I don't blame them.

What I wouldn't forgive is for them to be nice to WH, but it's unlikely that they should meet him. He has never socialized much and now he doesn't even frequent the kind of places where he might meet them.

I am specially surprised that even people you have contact only thru internet, suddenly never write to you again.

That's why MB is so important. Even of I don't write much, I read obsessively. Maybe one of the good things about my job is that I can't access MB. Makes me concentrate on other things for a few hours. At this point it is probably better.

Hi cc -

This sordid mess we find ourselves in certainly isn't fodder for pleasant conversation with casual friends.

It seems like those true, deep friends may stick with you through this, support you, and be truly interested in your pain and how they can love you.

Other, more "casual" friends aren't going to find this something they wish to hear about or be a part of.

Georgia

you're right about the friends and I believe it is my fault I don't have many true real friends. I guess I spent too much time with and for my "family" and I don't regret it.

Glad you had a wonderful time over the weekend. You are very brave, and kind.

I think you don't have much choice but to go through with the divorce. You have done everything you could to get your M back but your WH isn't helping at all.

I don't see any other options, even though I also hate divorce. My case is different because WH does not have any contact with me but is financially supporting us. I know it is sort of dangerous 'cause he made decide to stop any moment but that is when I would get legal help and divorce would probably inevitable.

I know you will recover and continue to be the fine man that you are. You will find happiness again eventually.

So will I <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, cc..

You too are obviously a fine lady.

I regret that you too are forced into this exclusive BS club.

I don't know that there is a "fault" to be had on this friend issue. It's just that many of us maintain lots of "shallow" friendships, and that's not (IMO) a bad thing. It's just that we all have few deep, true friendships that will stick with us with it ain't fun no more.

You've done fine.

Georgia

Thanks FGG.

I've always felt a little awkward about friends, I just didn't quite fit. That is due to the fact that I spent most of my childhood abroad, so at 13 when I came back to the country I was just not one of the "girls" .

But I don't look for shallow friendships or pretend they are anything more than that, or expect more than that.

I was surprised that when faced with this difficult situation I had such a great response from my family and a few friends. That was more than enough for me, to help me not disappear down that hole we all seem to fall into when faced with infidelity.

and I'm sure that when all this is over there will be many positive things I will have learned. I know that once that first step that destroys the marriage commitment is taken, there is no going back. Ever. And to stay in that situation was really terrifying for me! So I will make the best of it, thanks to MB.

And I'm sure you will too

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I got to LEVEL 3 on the TUMBLEBUGS GAME. Where are you? What happens when you get to the last level?

Mimi, I'm still stuck on level *!!!!!

I've been here for weeks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I've no idea what happens, but the last level is 78!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

We should ask Pep, she's playing..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

78 LEVELS? You are kidding! I might go down into the hole by then.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I can't imagine 78 different scenarios...

To answer your question SS, yes the weekends are worse than the weekdays. Last weekend was a long one because of a holiday on monday and one of the worst I've had for quite a while.

I couldn't stop crying! It's horrible.

So I decided I am going to go out more on weekends. I'm going to start taking the dog for walks to different places.

Why can't I get over it?
I always have WH in my mind.

I was so angry with him last week that I took the lawyers number from my wallet with the intention of calling him the next day (BTW, this would be a big step for me as I believe that even talking to a lawyer would be the first step towards divorce). I then decided that I needed some reassurance to keep doing this plan B for a year (2 more months to go) so I wrote to my sister and asked her to tell me sincerely what she thought of my marriage. If she said she had never thought we were a good match I would have called the lawyer and found out about divorce.

This is what she answered:

"Yes. I will tell you honestly of my impression.
I always thought you were the perfect couple and family. Because you and
WH were so very comfortable with each other, and affectionate with each
other, all through the years and through all the different happenings.
And you were happy and content to stay home with each other and your
children. And you respected the time and effort each one of you
dedicated to your respective careers. You appeared to have the same
priorities and you seemed to be accepting of each other's way of
operating, and of each other's quirks. Of course I have no idea of how
well your sexual and intimate lives were going. So, all in all, yes, you
guys appeared to be in sync and to be on a long and happy path. Yes,
your lives seemed to be very much OK. "

So I decided that I have to go on and give him the chance to repent. At least one year.

Unfortunately in spite of no contact, I think resentment is starting to build up.

To answer your question SS, yes the weekends are worse than the weekdays. Last weekend was a long one because of a holiday on monday and one of the worst I've had for quite a while.

I couldn't stop crying! It's horrible.

I have not been through what you are going through. I can't imagine the pain you must feel. I would guess there are no words to describe it, or that could describe it. Though I can't wholly understand, I do feel for you, and wish things were otherwise. I do want you to know people care about you.

So I decided I am going to go out more on weekends. I'm going to start taking the dog for walks to different places.

That's a start. Just a start though. Do you have old hobbies that can be revived? New ones you would like to try?
Dreams you have been afraid to think about?

Why can't I get over it?
I always have WH in my mind.

Remember, this is how it is sppposed to be. If everyone had God in their hearts, this is the only way it would be. If it's ever over, you'll find a way to let go, but for now, I admire you for your loyalty, and love. That's a good thing.

So I decided that I have to go on and give him the chance to repent. At least one year.

Unfortunately in spite of no contact, I think resentment is starting to build up.

Again, I think good of you for giving him this time. I do worry about your feelings, and your stamina, and your emotional health. It's natural to feel resentment when a person is betrayed like this. Is there anything that helps?

SS

Quote

Again, I think good of you for giving him this time. I do worry about your feelings, and your stamina, and your emotional health. It's natural to feel resentment when a person is betrayed like this. Is there anything that helps?

I also worry about my emotional health. I've been thinking of maybe asking for ADs but I don't have other signs of depression and I hate taking any medication.

I've tried hobbies, but my heart is just not in it.

The movies make me forget for a couple of hours.

At work I manage to do OK, but unless there is something very exciting going on I run off after 6 or 7 hours.

Travelling for 3 months I'm sure would help a lot, but obviously it's not possible. I started this new job a few months ago and I have a lot of responsibility, so I can't take off even if I have the vacation days.

On the other hand I have 3 dds and alhough they seem to be doing OK, I want to be here for them, I want this to still be a home for them.

I just have to change my feelings. I know they can be changed.

I also worry about my emotional health. I've been thinking of maybe asking for ADs but I don't have other signs of depression and I hate taking any medication.

I hate taking medications too, and I understand what you are saying. It wouldn't hurt to ask YOUR doctor what the think. It might be good to talk about it with a professional. I realize you are one yourself, but you know what I mean - another opinion just for peace of mind.

I've tried hobbies, but my heart is just not in it.

The movies make me forget for a couple of hours.

Movies drag you into another world, but that's not making your life better, just an escape. I know you know already, just thinking out loud. The problem is that real life is SUPPOSED to be about spouse, and family. This is not of your choosing.

At work I manage to do OK, but unless there is something very exciting going on I run off after 6 or 7 hours.

OK, lets just tell your boss you only want 5 hour days now !!! Hmmm, that might not work. Some bosses can be so difficult. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Travelling for 3 months I'm sure would help a lot, but obviously it's not possible. I started this new job a few months ago and I have a lot of responsibility, so I can't take off even if I have the vacation days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

That doesn't sound very fun at all. When do you get vacation days? OH, but I see, you are talking as though you could get 3 months worth? You do get a day or so every now and then, don't you?

On the other hand I have 3 dds and alhough they seem to be doing OK, I want to be here for them, I want this to still be a home for them.

I hope this isn't as hard on them as it is on you.

I just have to change my feelings. I know they can be changed.

What I do is pretend. I figure out what I want do be different (in me, not things outside I can't change.) Then I pretend they are different. Relapses come, and I start over. I pretend I can handle it, that I will be OK, that I am getting along fine. Over time, my pretense becomes reality.

It won't work all day every day, but it helps so much some days. Yes, you CAN change your thoughts and feelings.

Your worth the effort.

SS

I'll explain about the vacations. I changed positions but for the same employers. So I have about 40 days vacations I can take (last year it just wasn't worth taking them). But because of the responsibility of my present position I can't take them.
BTW the job is part time, 4 hours per day. I normally stay 6-7 hours and some days 11-12. But I can't risk losing it. It's my only permanent job and it has helped alot for my self esteem, and it would be my dream job if I could enjoy it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I try. and sometimes I manage to really enjoy it for a couple of days.

I also got another job a week ago teaching on the internet. It's supposed to be well paid but I haven't been told how much yet. It's very important because of the contacts I have made, so I make an effort to do it well.

I know that travelling is living in fantasy land, but it would give me a feeling of relief for a few days at least and maybe I could find some strength to go on. My next planned work realted trip is in december for 3 or 4 days. Then the next trip I plan to take will be in january. It's summer here and everyone is on holidays so I plan to go for a week by myself to Ushuaia, Argentina. It will be my birthday present to myself. You know, WH never gave me a
birthday present in the 19 years we have been married!

Anyway, I've just found out that dds are going to dinner with WH which is strange because he always takes them out to dinner on weekdays when I suspect OW has a class. Never on weekends.

But it's good that I'll be alone and can have my own pity party. They haven't noticed how bad I'm doing. I guess I'm a real good actress!
LOL I did win a prize for best actress in high school! Just haven't used those abilities since then.

I would have a hard time with my spouse if she didn't pay attention to my B-day in 19 years.

Glad you get a vacation in January. Vacations are good for us.

So you are one of those people who can be counted upon always, and you always do more than you are contracted to do. That's good for your employer, but can be hard on you and your family.

I do wish your daughters knew how you were doing and were helping you more. Acting is good in come ways, not in others. You really do need support.

Are you doing anything proactive to change your feelings, or to keep from having so much time to think negative things?
I am wondering how you cope, and where you are in changing things. I am thinking of a poem -

It's only the view from where you sit
that makes you fear defeat.
Life is full of many aisles,
so why don't you change your seat?

Is there any way for you to do that emotionally?

SS

THanks SS. It means a lot to me that you validate my feelings and situation.

Yes I am being proactive to change things. Nothing much has worked so far, but I'm not giving up. Eventually something will help me.

I don't want to burden my dds with this. They are 18 and 17 and living as teenagers do. That's what I want for them. They deserve it. I didn't have it, so I may have a bit of difficulty understanding the carefree attitude and "selfishness" of this age but that's not a reason to take it away from them. They protect me by saying the least possible about WH.

Want to know the worst: year before last he bought OW a 40 dollar perfume for her birthday and nothing for me for mine which is 1 month after hers. THat hurt. Still does. Last year, we were alreay separated for my birthday, he got me a book. First time in 19 years. It had no meaning for me.

Anyway, going to work in a few minutes, and I don't want to cry anymore. I'll do something different this week.

Thank you.

CC,

Looks like SS has been giving you good support. That's great.

IMHO, your dd's do need to be taken into your confidence. They may know more than you think but may be waiting for the invitation to show you their support.

Make a stance against this A as a family. Many parents try to sheild their children and as a result, the children are not as prepared to deal with this stuff as adults.

This is a lesson which is hard but together as a family, you will see how to survive it.

Glad your job is helping you. Once you are able to get stable, sync up your mind and heart, the pain will lessen. You will never stop being amazed at the stupidity of the Ws. However, you will be able to look at it with less pain once you get over that hump.

Remember the OW is never better than you. Never. She has to wear some sort of perfume....re: OWs STINK! LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hugz,
L.

Good Morning, cc -

Sorry to hear you're having such a hard time. I can relate to some of your feelings. I remember the almost smothering anguish and pain that WW's relationship with OM caused me. And... I remember that last year for our anniversary (28th) she got me....nothing, not even a card. It wasn't so important that I didn't get anyTHING, it was the message that it sent that she couldn't even take the time, or care enough....so I understand.

I know this is hard to believe, but I do believe that time lessens the hurt. I am finding that my periods of intense hurt or missing WW are getting less and less frequent. It hurts me the most when I remember who she WAS, but she's not that person any more. I suspect that your WH is the same way, from the description you have of your marriage to him. A lot like me and W....we were inseparable and the "model" couple.

On the AD issue....I started AD's at the advice of Harley. I'm glad I did it. Now, I'm about ready to start seeing if I can taper off of them. You're the MD, not me, but I would encourage you to at least consider this. I think it is a big help in getting through the most hurtful stages.

Georgia

cc, I am sorry you're feeling down. I can't say I have much in advice, but I do know how you feel because it's how I feel sometimes. It takes a lot of effort. Start small. I try to take it day by day or else I am overwhelmed.

I wonder if the fact that in two months, given your own timeline, you will probably have to make 'hard decisions' is getting you down. Especially since 'nothing' has happened so far!

On LT's thread I read that SH has advised her to set a date to 'reassess' the situation. How about if you told yourself that? That in 2 months you will reassess how you feel about the situation, rather than have to at all cost 'act'? It might take some of the pressure off.

You are in my thoughts. Hang in there. We will get through this, won't we cc?

Orchid,

TY for the support.

DDs are informed. I told them OW lives with WH although the only time they got him to invite them over to his place she wasn't there and apparently all signs of her had disappeared ... except for a t-shirt hanging outside one of them noticed.
But they've never asked him point blank. As far as I know.

I don't want to burden them with my difficulties getting over this. I will with you guys. They know I have my "internet friends".
They encourage me to do whatever I want.

I know the OW isn't better than me. In this case it is so true even WH knows it, and denies her existance. But even that makes it more hurtful. It also feels a reflection on me.

I can't get to the point of hating or disrespecting him even though he's a WH and not H.

But I will. Someday. Hopefully soon.

Quote

I know this is hard to believe, but I do believe that time lessens the hurt.

It's not hard to believe! I was convinced it would be better by now, specially since my plan B has been so dark. But it doesn't seem to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I must be doing something wrong... I'll have to start using my imagination.

You are an example of how it should be.

Hey Lunamare,

you are doing so much better!

My 1 year deadline is actually to reassess the situation, when I'm pissed it's to star the divorce, when I'm not it's to probably decide to wait for the whole 2 years. But then I think that one can always re-marry so why prolong the uncertainty ? Might as well get closure and start again, with him or someone else, whatever is better.

Who knows?

We'll make it anyway. We have the best friends around here to keep us on track.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi cc46--You need something new with which to occupy your thoughts. Dunno exactly what that "something" might be for you, but during those interminable pages of living the Saga, I've learned that when my thoughts escape the corral, and start dragging me down the dusty trail (over the rocks and bumps, through the cow pies and horse droppings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) I very quickly have to lasso them back and start them in a new direction...or else. It is my personal tendency to get very depressed when things aren't "right", and there's so doggone much to be depressed about, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, so I work very hard at not letting my thoughts get away with me. Wish I could give more specific detail about how you, cc46, could do this for yourself, but I can't. All I know is that even though you will sometimes accidentally fall into the Slough of Despond, there's no need, once you're there, to sit around and make a few mud pies as long as you're dirty anyway! You're in my prayers.

t&l

Oh I do that! I try to think of things I would enjoy, including the kind of people I would like to meet.
That's why I have been able to function so well outwardly I guess.

Also I have no problem sleeping and most of the time have great dreams, but as soon as I wake up the "bad" thoughts begin again. It's exhausting.

That's why I lurk but don't post. There doesn't seem to be much anyone can do to help, but I always learn new things.

But maybe reading here isn't the best thing to do. I'm glad I can't access MB at work. In a couple of weeks we are hosting an international conference and I will most probably be very busy, so I should use that to wean myself from MB.
Only read in the mornings, 15 min before leaving for work and maybe after dinner 1/2 hour. As long as I am in plan B that should be OK.

thank you.

CC:

Why do you think staying away from MB would be helpful?

Just want to share that was one of the biggest mistakes I made during all of this...

When my H was still wayward and I stopped coming here, I got into a whole lot of trouble..

It's much better to listen and talk to people here about what you are going through...

We understand....

Hi Mimi!

If it hadn't been for MB and all you guys I shudder to think where I would be!

But it's been a whole year of studying and reading and learning with no practice needed, because WH and H are both absent. I have no one to put these things to practice with.

I can't stand to read about recovery because it doesn't seem likely. I can't stand to read about the pain of the newbies because I seem to be there still.

I read many hours, hours that I could use to go out with the dog, or do my crafts.

I will miss MB, but I'm reading about infidelity ALL THE TIME!!!!

I have come to the conclusion that probably 50% of people are futur WS and 50% BS. That means that of every 10 people you meet 5 will betray, lie, be dishonest, untruthful etc. And of the 50% of the futur or past BS there must be quite a few who either don't care for their marriages, or are not committed, or cannot forgive, and give up. They are the ones we don't hear from, because they would never come here.

And what about the WS? of that 50% many are probably worse then the ones we may have read about here, and many may not be. But we don't get that many WSs here so we don't really know what they think. Even if they decide to come back to their marriages, very few are willing to "marriagebuild", at least that's my perception.

So it's a grim world out there with regard to marriage.

I agree with Dr. Harleys position on marriage and his techniques for a good marriage. I've learned all that since I got here.

But at this point I can't use any of it. Nor should I because I start thinking of relationships with other men ! and that's not what I want to do right now.

So maybe detaching a little bit from MB may be good for me. Not easy but I'll try and see what happens.

I haven't exactly been following the script, rather WH hasn't. So I have to try something different.

Why do you think it might be dangerous?

Good Morning, cc -

It is obvious that my WW hasn't followed the MB "script". Does that mean that I've not gotten anything from the folks here on MB? You wisely point out the cruelty of the world as you perceive it, I don't disagree with you. However, here is a cluster of people who share your views, your thoughts, your observations. Where else do you intend to replicate that community?

In the end, only you can decide what is best for you. As I (hope) that I demonstrate, personal recovery may have to occur if marital recovery doesn't.

Finding a group of folks who are interested in cc's recovery is important, too. Even if the marriage doesn't survive.

Georgia

CC:

I think you are depressed. That concerns me alot for you.

You have a negative view of relationships and of the world now. I regret that you have allowed your WH to do this to you...

I'm afraid that without this community you may become MORE AND MORE depressed.

Read about depression and how it is cured. A good book is FEELING GOOD by David Burns, M.D. Read about the importance of working towards changing your negative thought process. Read inspirational books...

I think an antidepressant will help you...

Why do I think you are depressed? You have given up HOPE and FAITH...

In my darkest hours, CC, I continued to believe in the GOODNESS of others. I tried to maintain a focus on the POSITIVE when the ENEMY was trying to make me believe otherwise.. I kept my FAITH in the LORD that HE had GOOD THINGS IN STORE FOR ME..if not MY MARRIAGE....

Plus:

Who's going to discuss TUMBLEBUGS with me?

I want to learn more about your country and culture..

Do you eat BLACK BEANS?

I went to a prep school in high school and one of my best friends there was from Guatamala. She still lives there..She always talked about how she missed eating black beans..just a stupid memory of mine.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

That's funny. When #1S was in H.S., he and the future Mrs. #1S went on a church mission trip to Guatamala. They discovered black beans while they were there and said they served black beans with EVERYTHING. But..they too got to really like them while they were there.

Something I discovered from that trip is that, IMO, Gualamalan coffee is the best coffee there is. It is very strong, but not bitter. To this day, I like Guatamalan coffee better than any other.

cc - we care about you. Listen to Mimi...she's got lot's of wisdom here. I endorse AD's as well.

Last week I cut my Lexapro does in 1/2, after being on them for most of a year.

Georgia

Quote

Does that mean that I've not gotten anything from the folks here on MB?

FGG: I'm sure I get everything I know about infidelity from MB! and other subjects too! I've learned so much in these months (a year soon) I have been here. The fact that I don't post doesn't mean I don't read and because I don't post you may think I'm not around much. I swear I spend at least 3-4 hours a day on weekedays, and more on weekends reading MB!

Maybe it's too much time to dedicate to this aspect of my life. That's what I'm thinking. Maybe that's why I'm stuck in my personal recovery .

I have learned that I CAN personally recover if I want to, but I can't recover my marriage unless WH is involved. I know this, and I'm only working on MY RECOVERY.

Quote

Finding a group of folks who are interested in cc's recovery is important, too.

You have no idea how important this is to me, but I haven't thanked you all YET, because I'm not yet personally recovered nor is my marriage recovered. But I'm sure I will someday.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Somebody asked how I was and I just answered sincerely....

Quote

I think you are depressed

Not yet Mimi. I don't have the signs and believe me, even if I'm not a psychiatrist I know what to look out for.

I don't sleep too little or too much. I can eat. I work. My house is neat, I bathe everyday and I cut my toenails!
(I'm not sure why, but when people are not mentally well, they don't cut their toenails!)

I have not abandoned my family nor they me. So I am socially functioning Ok.

That's why I'm not clinically depressed.

Now do I have other problems? Sure. Lots. and I've had them for ages... ever since I can remember.

The main problem is being disappointed by people, by unfairness, dishonesty, lies, etc.

Part of this is because of my childhood. I grew up very innocently, had a fairytale childhood, with good values instilled in me, both by my parents and the cultural atmosphere around me. My childhood and elementary school years were spent in USA and London.

When I was 12, (my elder sister was 14 and my 5 brothers were younger, the youngest 18 months), my father died and my childhood ended.

I came to live in a third world country where the culture is different, everything was different and our lives had suddenly completely changed.

Was I the only one affected by this? Obviously not. Of the 5 eldest kids I am the only one who remained in this country, I am the only one who is a professional and works in the profession (my sister is a translator but has only worked now and then at that), I married and had children and am independant (which is not a small feat around here).

The crazy thing is that I have always had to remind myself that I must be OK to be achieve all those things. I don't take them for granted, I don't FEEL I'm entitled to them, I don't feel it's natural for me.

When I was single I was convinced I would never marry because I would never find someone here who valued the same things I did because they were "culturally acquired" during my childhood and therefore different.

But I did. I fell in love and I was totally committed to my marriage for 19 years. Even these last 3 years when WH was already acting strangely detached I had decided to give him space, not pressure him and hope that he would get back to being "normal" so we could start this new phase of our lives.

So I guess my self esteem problems which have always been present, although I am also permanently aware of them, took a turn for the worse. Luckily only briefly because I found MB immediately and also because the first thing my sister said to me was IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! (She married an american and has lived over there for more than 20 years now). Nobody HERE said that to me, although nobody blames me either.

But I expected my mother to blame me, and she didn't. On the contrary, she totally supported me and never again wanted to see WH. She's terribly disappointed.

I'm lost. Don't even know where this is leading.

Maybe what I want to understand myself is that maybe all these previous issues are complicating my personal recovery.

I never felt emotionally healthy before, but I am apparently emotionally healthier than many who NEED professional help to live a "socially" acceptable life.

I know I don't like asking for help. But I have.

cc- I so enjoy your posts. You're obviously an intelligent and well-rounded individual. Thanks for telling us a little more about you.

I am so sorry you're having to go through this stuff.

Georgia

Quote

Who's going to discuss TUMBLEBUGS with me?

I'm still stuck on level 8!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Quote

Do you eat BLACK BEANS

No. It's funny you should ask. This country is completely different from the rest of Latin America, because we killed our natives early on and so have no "cultural" legacy or identity !

According to WH who liked history, we were allowed to exist as a country because geographically we are a wedge between 2 superpowers! And it's not only geographically. We really are always picking on them! Pests that we are!

So we are all descendants of mostly italians and spaniards, with some other europeans mixed in. My great great great grandmother was irish! O'Reilly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is beef country. No beans here.

Quote

Thanks for telling us a little more about you.

You know, I don't know why I don't tell you more. I'm not saying anything here that I wouldn't tell a friend or even a stranger.

And I don't care about being identified after all. I know I'm the only person from this country posting, and I doubt anyone else is reading although I have recommended this site to friends who speak english.

I guess I'm a little influenced by the need of some to be anonymous. I don't have that need. I'm just who I am and I have nothing to hide. Thank God!

So ask me. I'll answer.

cc46,

Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed learning more about you.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{cc46}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Ok. Not clinically depressed BUT you do have a DEPRESSIVE THOUGHT PATTERNS...You know, SEEING THE GLASS AS BEING HALF EMPTY RATHER THAN HALF FULL....

That's understandable though...

I've been listening to the book YOUR BEST LIFE NOW by OSTEEN...he's talking about the need to stay positive even in the midst of major life problems....

Luna,

it's just another life... unique like all others.
But I'm glad you found it interesting.

Mimi,

take into consideration that I;m venting here because I don't do it anywhere else. I don't think that this is the best solution, it would probably be preferable to have a group of friends you could talk to everyday or nearly everyday and at any moment. But that's not reality.

We all have lives and daily things to do. And it's much, much better than not talking to anyone or talking to myself!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> That drives you insane! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Although my thoughts might SEEM depressive, I don't act on them. If I did I would have given up on my marriage years ago, I'd have given up on my career too. I could have decided to be a SAHM, afterall I had 3 kids in 2 years!

So inspite of basically doing the whole family thing and studying I was very optimistic all my life.

Yes I have depressive thoughts very often lately, but more than that I have depressive FEELINGs. I know feelings can change, I know that life can be good, even better than I can imagine, but it's not happening right now.

I'm trying.

But it's hard with little support. WH still wayward. Finances nothing special although I'm not complaining. I appreciate everything I have.

Big problems at work though. Maybe I'll be "changed" because the employees don't like my controlling their workschedules or their work. And to make things worse I'm always there!

Anyway, I've been meaning to tell you that about 10 days ago I got a call from a cc because it hadn't been paid for 2 months. Probably the billing never got here. Has happened before.

Because we had actually agreed it would be good to make some sort of contact with WH I wrote him an e mail. He wrote back very defensively saying he had paid everything but that he would check and take care of it. That was a monday. By saturday and having received a second phone call (although I wasn't home) I went and paid it myself.

When I got home I had a note saying that they would be "taking action".

Sunday WH took dds to dinner and they must have told him. On monday I kept getting forwarded messages from him about diabetes, job opportunities, and asking whether I had got his e mails about having paid the account.

When I said I hadn't he kept asking the same thing??????? but never forwarded them. Makes me a little suspicious... But I'll find out in the end, because if the bill was paid twice that will come up on the next billing, or I may just go check today when I run some other errands.

So far that has been the extent of our "conversations".

He signs his e mails, "regards". That's funny! Who does he think I have to give his regards to?

Anyway, maybe I just need more time than others to get over this. But I will

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm not criticizing or finding fault with you about feeling the way you do.

I have felt worse.

I've actually suffered from clinical depression as you describe. However, I did bathe and cut my toenails. (Smile)

I was trying to HELP and to ENCOURAGE you to be more uplifted is all....

Thank you Mimi. I know I can always count on you and many others here. But I don't post much because I know I have to do the work inside myself.

I have to heal myself. In spite of everything I said I know that I do make interesting contributions to those around me.

I'm just a little impatient with MYSELF because just before all this happened I was really feeling great, and looking forward to the futur.

Now that futur is a completely different scenario and I can't picture it yet. I'm trying, but I'm not there yet. I can't make long term plans and that's frustrating.

I have to work on myself.

Are you saying that you do not feel that it is OK for you to be unhappy?

I understand your unhappiness and expect it.

The good part of all this for me has been my own personal growth.

I have turned my whole personal outlook on life around FOR THE BETTER...

On the contrary Mimi, I expected to be unhappy and I allow myself to be unhappy for a while.

But I don't want to be unhappy anymore!

I'm tired of being unhappy! I want to be happy and get on with so many things that I'd like to do. I just can't seem to find the energy to do them, yet. But maybe this is the end of the black period. I felt no emotion with WH's emails. With the defensive and entitled tone I read into them it was like *sigh* he's still wayward.

I was pissed when I paid the bill because there was the faint possibility that he was not paying it on purpose, but I don't think that anymore.

And worries about the job, family, etc.and me suddenly by myself! But I'm getting used to being by myself now.

I'm going to take the dog for a walk and run some errands...

Quote

Who does he think I have to give his regards to?

Just read this. That's funny....LOL

Hi cc -

I can totally relate to your feelings. But now, those feelings within me are mostly MEMORIES. I still have those feelings sometimes, but less and less frequently. It causes me the most pain when I remember how I did feel.

I think, based on my experiences, that you will find that you can be HAPPY again. I too have mourned the loss of my "certain" future, and I still deal with the uncertainties of where I'm heading now. I was always so much looking forward to being "Grandpa & Grandma" with grandkids. That will now be forever changed.

I have vented so much to poor Jeb that I bet he needs AD's more than I do. Amzaing, no matter how much he hears me rant and rave, he's still happy!! Perhaps the secret to a happy life is lots of sleep, listening more than speaking, and barking at the Min Pinchers that live next door! Maybe I should try that for a while.

And, I count myself among those like Mimi who have used this tragedy as an opportunity to improve ME, to find new challenges and rewards in MY life.

Would you mind sharing exactly what country you are in? I would like to read a little about it and learn some history.

Georgia

Georgia,

I don't complain about the existance of the feelings, I'm glad I'm able to FEEL, but they should go away a some point, and it's taking more than the average period, I think.

But maybe soon...

I'm feeling better already.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorry I didn't answer before but I can't access MB at work.

Okay, cc, I'm looking at it on google.earth right now. Go over to your window and wave so I can see you!! (Just kidding).

That is a LONG WAY from here!!! My company has in the past had customers from Argentina and Brazil, but I haven't seen them for a long time. If I'm not mistaken, some of the S.A. governments (about 10 years ago)imposed heavy tariffs on private aircraft leaving the country to get work done in the U.S.

That sounds like a very interesting and important vocation that you have. I don't even know where in Atlanta the CDC is located, but if you EVER make it back, Jeb & I will drive over and buy you lunch.

Georgia

The hospital I worked at was in that area. It was built as a hospice where nuns would take care of the sick. So I worked in that area for nearly 10 years.

It's where the docks are so at night it an be dangerous. Lately, since we have cruise ships coming, they have made it safer during the day time and there are craft shops etc.

Saturdays and specially for New Years it's very traditional that you go to the Port Market which is all places to eat. Mostly meat of course.

That is also the financial center, so there are a lot of important looking people in suits walking around in the daytime!

Anyway, I'm sure I'll manage to make it to the CDC someday again. I'll let you know.

I'd love to meet Jeb! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And of course, if Mimi's not watching and you make it down (up) here, I'll invite you with some juicy steak!

Quote

And of course, if Mimi's not watching and you make it down (up) here, I'll invite you with some juicy steak!

I would be most concerned if this was a date!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's not. Just a casual meeting.....

cc -

lol..."important looking people in suits" I like that....can I visit and be an important looking person in an Eddie Bauer shirt and pants?

Something I want in my future is to travel to remote, off the beaten path foreign countries. I find being with folks of a culture other than my own fascinating and exhilirating. Before my marital train wreck, we had some family vacations in Toronto. Even though that is only a taste of "foreign", I loved it.

I sometimes watch those Delta weekend specials and get the urge to make an unannounced, unplanned international junket just to see something I've never seen before.

I really should get a passport....

Anyway, thanks for the invitation. Whehter you visit CDC, or I go there, we WILL NOT tell Mimi what we eat!

Georgia

oops...she's chimed in already.

Man....you can't get away from those GODDESSES!!!!

This place is nice, very civilized and not at all exotic except for ONE THING! I've only lately noticed how weird this one cultural thing looks like to foreigners and that is drinking mate (pronounced mateh.

Every american who comes here finds himself at the mercado del puerto at some point... and is easily identified.

Nevertheless, there are all sorts there. So we can ignore the suits...

Quote

It's not. Just a casual meeting.....

You guys know better than this!

This is what they all say!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay, what is mate?

I guess google won't find much, haven't tried.

Let me see how I can explain.

a mate is on one hand a gourd which is dried and cured (actually you have to cure it yourself).

then inside you pack "yerba" which is like a herb (grown in Paraguay and Brazil) and you pour hot water and suck it up through a "bombilla" .

The bombillas are metal, sometimes silver and gold.

I'll try to find a picture (easier to take one I guess).

Well people here drink that ALL DAY. You carry it around with you with a thermus of hot water. It's a social drink, which is commonly shared, among friends.

There is a lot of ceremony involved, although not the japanese tea sort.

For example, you must NEVER move the bombilla (straw) without asking permission from the owner.

Some people don't even let you pour the water yourself.

The main thing is that this is very, very typical here.

let's see if this works:

mate

Well...that would definitely take some getting used to.

I didn't try to google "mate" because I didn't think I could come up with the drink.

Thank you for your words of caution, Mimi, but I don't think neither of us is ACTUALLY planning a trip 1/2 way around the world.

Quote

Thank you for your words of caution, Mimi, but I don't think neither of us is ACTUALLY planning a trip 1/2 way around the world.

I was only kidding. However, why not PLAN a trip 1/2 way around the world?

Hum...were you really kidding?

For one thing, I wouldn't plan a trip 1/2 way around the world to meet a MARRIED woman.

However, don't be surprised to see me do something wacky like post on my thread from some obscure part of the world because I was able to get a cheap ticket there.

Actually, this has been a part of my thinking in losing weight. I enjoy travel much more when I'm in shape.

Speaking of which, I am leaving here and heading to the Y.

Georgia

The only way I'm taking a trip 1/2 way round the world is if the job takes me... and it just might!

I've been to USA many times in the last few years, mostly for work.

Georgia, I can't believe you don't have a passport!

Georgia, when you can, would u edit the name of my city from your post?

I know I don't ahve anything to hide but it makes me a little nervous...

Thanks

Good Morning...

Okay, I think I've edited out the references.

On the passport, the only "foreign" country I've been to is Canada.

Georgia

Today is the first year anniversary of d day.

Just 2 weeks ago I was feeling terribly down, crying all the time, etc.

But today I feel fine. I have felt much better about EVERYTHING for a week now.

Last year I confirmed the A by having my brother, (who did it to prove me wrong) his wife and 1 yr old daughter go to a toll booth WH would have to go by when he left for the beach house like he had been doing for a while to be "alone". It was raining.

When my brother called to say that WH was wth OW my whole world crashed.

After a couple of hours I e mailed him telling him I knew and how disappointed I was. Not too may LBs.

When he called to say that he had arrived I asked him to read the e mail.
He never answered it, nor did he call and he came home as usual on monday!

Anyway, 1 whole year later, he is now living with OW, I have been in a dark plan B for 10 months.

I realize how much I've grown and all I've learned inthis year and probably how much I've changed. PERSONALLY, MB has taught me much in 3 different and separate areas:
1. Infidelity and how to manage it. Thanks to Dr. Harley and others there is a real interpretation and description of this phenomenon which plagues our societies. The scientist in me has researched this subject and Dr. Harley seems to have the best information and the best ways of treating it. It was a huge surprise to read about how As are really fantasies and why they don't survive, about the fog, etc. It was all new to me then, and I was conforted to know that some people really knew how and why these things happened!
I love Dr. Harley and all MBers here who carry out his ideas and prove them right again and again. Even if their marriages don't survive.

2. I learned a whole lot of other things about relationships both with spouses and children, in laws, co workers etc. This, thanks to all the people here willing to share their experiences and their knowledge.

3. I learned to make my relationship with God more meaningful. I was a little lost although I still trusted Him blindly. I never lost my faith but that was about all I had. Faith in HIM. Now I am begnning to have a relationship with Him.

So based on all these things I have experienced I am even stronger in my plan B. I know I will forgive WH and OW should they choose to ask for forgiveness. I know that I can divorce WH when the time is right and I can trust God to tell me when that is. I feel very sad for the path they have chosen, specially for WH who is isolating himself from family and co-workers (he has no friends). His futur is bleak. I pray for his soul.

I know that I can be myself, better than I was, and that all the pain, the doubts, the anxiety, the crying have made me GROW as a person. I thank God for giving me the strength to grow and become a better person, choosing HIS path and not the easier ones.

I do not want to survive this situation, I want it to be a means of growing and learning and changing myself for the better. I want to use it for something good.

I don't want to "get on" with life. I want to LIVE .

So I got rid of those "sad" feelings. I didn't even remember what day it was this morning when I got up. And I wanted to write this here in case I "forget" how far I've come and what I plan for the futur.

Thank you all of you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Who was it that said, "Living well is the best revenge"? I can't remember, but I do know that you're right to not want to just survive. Thrive, too. It will not only say so much about you that is good, but so much about him that is not. And all without your ever saying an actual word! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

P.S. Nice flu joke. LOL

CC,

That is a beautiful post. I admire your courage to see things as they really are and make wise choices for yourself.

Moving forward is not a sign of defeat. As with many good deeds and accomplishments, it appears to be a weak move when in reality it is a strong, very strong stance in the right direction.

Time and our attitudes will show us how much we have progressed. That's the need for patience.

In your thread I notice a calm that has grown in you and now you can recap the events with a purpose to make this a learning experience.

I appreciate how you so skillfully yet gracefully explained this to us. You are certainly to be commended for your soundness of mind which is bringing out the beauty that lies within.

Thank you for your post.

All the best,
L.

T&l and orchid,

thank you for your kind words. As you both know I feel awkward writing in english (????, because I also feel awkward in spanish! LOL), and cannot always find the right words.

Also I am a CA and since finding MB am working on that too. So after I posted, I was thinking that I hope nobody reads it! I immediately corrected myself. I doesn't matter whether anyone reads it. I wrote it for myself. I am happy with this journey, not that I would have CHOSEN to undertake it.

Any day now I'll send WH a thank you card for having given me this opportunity for growth!

Quote

Moving forward is not a sign of defeat.

I have always moved forward, although it was slow and complicated pre A because I had all that extra weight that a non cooperative husband and small children mean. WH is not a moving forward sort of guy. For example he got a webpage for his business about 4 years ago but he hasn't put anything on it!
All this A business started at the same time that dds were starting to be completely independant and so I would have had more freedom , and was planning on trying to get WH more involved with the world!

I still have much to work on, but I plan on thriving, NOT surviving!

Quote

..I still have much to work on, but I plan on thriving, NOT surviving!

I like your moxie!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> U have spunk girl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thriving, not surviving. Very good line.

Keep up the good work.

Hugz,
L.

cc46,

I am glad to see that you are feeling better.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{cc46}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks Luna.

I really am. Yesterday I went to WH's aunt's 85th birthday and most of his extended family was there: cousins and aunts and MIL with her friends. But not WH nor his brothers or SILs. That was a normal scenario except that now I am included although WH is not with me. Sort of weird but I SWEAR I felt fine.

I get along great with the aunt and cousins. Otherwise I wouldn't have gone, but we visited her every Holy Week since we got married! Even went there on our "honeymoon" so I care for her.

Anyway, I was not at all affected by the d day anniversary, so I really seem to be over the worse for now.

Hope you get there soon too.

Shows how important personal recovery is.

Hi cc46, hope you are doing well or better each day.

My WH seems to be isolating himself as well. But that's the price that they are paying.

I am surrounding myself with positive, supportive people. I'm always touched when a few people write, email or call to check up on how I'm doing... as my financial state is still far from being resolved.

I really hope to secure a better job prospect soon.

~A

Hi Ashley, good to see you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm still happy, nothing seems to be able to change that.

Once I was able to exorcise the feelings that were bothering me (maybe I did that by talking about them here on MB) I have been able to be happier than I have been for ages!

Years ago I read the book "to love is to be happy with" , a philosophic kind of book which is based on the premise that you can be happy even when dealing with bad or sad situations. And I practiced it a while and found it to be very true, and very effective in making any situation turn out better and result less traumatic.

That was years ago but I've been trying to get back in that kind of attitude, and I guess I have. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You can do it too! Our goal is to make OURSELVES better people, rather a person WE ARE PROUD TO BE .

Whether that means the marriage recovers or not, doesn't really matter. If you don't do the personal recovery work now, you'll have to do it while in marriage recovery which will be much harder.

A few times I've actually prayed "don't let him come back now" I'm not ready.:o

And WH will be a tough one to recover....

You can do it. We all can with the help of our 40 000 MB friends!

BTW,

you have to realize there is nothing you can do for your WH except show him with your example what it would be best to be.
It is TOUGH LOVE. It's a way of showing him that you love him.

Maybe he will have to go all the way to the bottom, but at least we will not be down there with him and on the contrary, we'll be showing them a way out when they have no more strength left. That's love.

You have to love yourself to be able to give love. That was my biggest flaw, I didn't care for myself. I learned that.

Hi cc -

It sounds like you're doing good, I'm glad you're feeling better.

IMO, completely removing ourselves from our WS world is EXTREMELY important. I've written about this with WOF on my thread, but in my sitch it was like my WW wanted to live in a soap opera (do they have those there?), and she wanted me to be a player in it too.

My have to, for our own sanity, step out of their little drama and let them play it out all by themselves. Maybe, if THEY are fortunate, we will still be around for the epilogue.

Georgia

I'm catching up with you. I reached LEVEL 6.....

Hi cc46,

Glad to hear things are looking up!

Hi guys!

Georgia,
yes we do have soap operas here. H and I have never been that kind of people. No public scenes, nor really any shouting, screaming etc. WH is carrying on in secret and I'm freer now to express myself so I do expose but without the drama.

I am doing better finally but you are doing GREAT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I still have to really carve out a life for myself. I don't have financial security of any kind, not with my jobs nor with what we had saved with WH. I haven't yet set up any kind of real "life" for myself because situations keep changing. I can't have any long term goals either, so I have still a long way to go about deciding my futur.

But plan B is brilliant in that it does remove you from the drama and gives you a chance to recover. There is no better choice in these situations.

So I'll pray. I'm not sure what I want yet.
I pray for peace and strength. I know I have several hurdles in the immediate futur: my mother and her sisters are the backbone of the family structure and they are all in their eighties so some day that is going to change and it looks like I will have to assume a more important role. I don't mind that, I think I'll enjoy it.

My dds are also another source of change. Their lives change all the time, and with it so does mine.

Mimi, I'm still stuck on level 8! unbelievable...

Luna, you are doing great and it can only get better.

The good thing is that I'm not like a fish out of the water anymore, but I still have a lot of work on myself to do. I've realized that lazyness is one thing that I have to work on and that includes spending too much time on MB, so I'm off to pay the mechanic and the supermarket.

WH was supposed to take dds out to dinner but he cancelled.
So I have to get some food.

I'm busy with conferences and stuff this week so I may not answer as promptly as usual.

Thanks to all of you.

cc,
It looks like you are doing really well, considering all that you have to deal with.

I read back a few days, and I am so impressed with your additude.

I realize there are momemts when it still gets to you, but I am so glad you seem able to cope with those feelings.

Good job!

SS

Thanks SS.

When I wrote the last post I forgot to "continue" and went off to rum my errands only to find it on the screen when I got back! Not exactly neat is it?

Anyway, on my errands I was thinking that I AM FLAWED from a very early age, probably. Living a dual life, speaking 2 languages, etc. Ever since I have a memory I can remember not fitting in with the others.

The difference is that now I have confronted that, and although I don't think that flaw will disappear I can live with it, I can even eventually become friends with my flaws. I know I will always feel a little strange, but not THAT strange. And mostof that strangeness comes from naiveness that makes me "honest" and therefore feel very bad when confronted by dishonesty, truthful, which makes me feel bad when I'm forced to lie or pretend, and makes me feel bad about myself. Things like that. I feel awkward. But I'm now learning to confront those feelings and situations and stand up to them better. But I still have a lot of work.

yes, I am work in progress but at least I am now in progress and not stuck.

The whole A situation is now just one more thing in this whole complex situation about ME, and not the focus of my life. At least I hope so.

Lots to do. I have to work a while now.

The more I am able to see into others minds, the more I think that many, many people see themselves the same way you see yourself. Flawed.

And, it's true. We are all works in progress. All have some flaw, some highly visible, some hidden from casual inspection.

It is wonderful when someone realizes they are flawed, and works to improve their life.

May you work quickly, acomplish much.

SS

Whew! found my thread!

Last night I actually AVOIDED WH! I had just left my car in the garage (half a block from the house) and I realized that WH was dropping dds off at home . It was 11 pm so I stood on the corner whre he could see me and waited until he drove off. I realize I have no desire to even see him, but also that this is what Orchid means when she says you don't to have anything to do with WH, only with your H.

Unfortunately I haven't seen H for a loooooooong time...I'm starting to relate to him as though he had died!

I feel this rejection is only of the WH, so maybe if teh A ever ends it will go away. It certainly can make things very uncomfortable, because at some point we will have to meet at some family affair etc. So far it hasn't happened.

Another of Orchid's wisdoms I have finally understood is that your heart and your mind have to be in sync. I think I should get divorced because he is still wayward and my financial situation is very dependant on him, but my heart hasn't given up. So I continue to plan B...

cc46,

quote:--------------------------------------------------
Whew! found my thread!
--------------------------------------------------------

This made me laugh. That's how much PLAN B takes the drama out of our lives. I actually update sometimes just so my thread doesn't get moved to archives!

quote:---------------------------------------------------
Last night I actually AVOIDED WH!
---------------------------------------------------------

Good. Sounds like you're doing well, cc46. I am glad.

Take care.

Quote

If I could magically change one thing on these forums, it would be to convince each and every BS to believe that the only loser in this craziness is the WS.
Cymanca

I just want to include this here for posterity. I am very grateful for this kind of insight from someone who has suffered a bad case of infidelity and survived.

Just a few details to update. Still in dark plan B.

OW has been spotted by my other dd at HER school <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Could she be harassing them? Too soon to tell but for those who don't know both older dds started different schools this year. OW also decided to go back to studying at one dds school, now she seems to be going to both dds schools! SICK!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I should let her know that dd3 is going to yet a different one but in 2 years! Just in case she wants to prepare herself for that too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My sister is visiting for a couple of weeks and since she is very close to dds I asked her to talk to them about the sitch, make sure they understand that while married it's not right to date (or have a GF<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />). Yesterday she had the first chat with one dd. Turns out that they want ME to be happy and they are very angry with WH because he has not explained anything to them and refuses to acknowledge that he's living with OW. Apparently dd3 is the angriest. They are aware of teh possibility of divorce.

My S said that dd sounded very mature and confident.

Dd also told her she does not recognize that man, he's an alien. So I guess he's still "in a fog".

I am doing quite a bit better. Job is very good, I'm finally starting to ENJOY it. I'm taking 2 days off to visit a brother withmy sister at the seaside. Next week I have a work related trip and in another coupple of weeks I have another. I like travelling! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's more of a relief than going to the movies!

And when you get paid to go it's even better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I need to be prepared for Xmas which is a huge trigger! Plan B started december the 26th!

I also bought tumblebugs so I am VERY busy now!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> although I'm still stuck on level 8<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hi CC46,

Thanks for dropping by in my thread.

When you're up to it, would like to hear more about how you are doing.

HUGS.

Yes.

Please let us hear from you.

How's it coming with TUMBLEBUGS?

I'm continuing with a high level of utter frustration!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Mimi and lunamare,

First I'M STILL STUCK ON LEVEL 8!!!!!!!!!! in tumblebugs but lately I've been reaching the last scene more often so maybe one of these days I'll get to see level 9. It must be 2 months now that I'm on the same level! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's still a big comfort for me but maybe I shouldn't play this much and get other things done!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

On other subjects, this month I got two trips, one to Peru and the other, last week, to Rio. The first was boring because I didn't get to go out much, apparently it was too dangerous. So it was all work and no play, very frustrating for me because I like to just walk around and see how people live and visit the main attractions. Next time, maybe.

Rio is a wonderful city, actually probably one of the most beautiful in the world. Unfortunately it rained or was cloudy most of the week. I was looking forward to this trip but unforunately I was quite depressed, there were too many triggers which hadn't ever bothered me before, (although I had never been there) and the weather didn't help. Rio is dominated by a huge Christ statue at the top of a hill, but because of the clouds I saw him for the first time after 4 days! Unbelievable! Still, it was very emotional. On the fifth and last day I went up to the statue. The view is incredible.

Anyway, as I mentioned I've been a little depressed. I guess it's the season, the timing (plan B anniversary is the 26th december), the fact that the family and even the extended family is split up this Christmas and who knows what else.

My sister visited a month ago and I asked her to talk to dds about the situstion. She said that they seemed strong and mature and they were very angry with WH. They just want me to be happy.

Dds 1 and 2 confonted WH about living with OW and he just answered that it was "hard for him to tell them" and that "now they knew".

On the way back from the airport dd mentioned that WH was spending Xmas Eve with MIL and BIL. (These last few years they've all come to our house). Now, this is quite surprising since Xmas Eve is also OW's birthday. I wonder if he's taking OW to MIL's because she has changed her mind (she had told WH to never take "that woman" to her house) or he's not taking her but not spending it with her either! Dd said she would go over after dinner to say Merry Xmas. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I have a few days off work starting wednesday. Normally that would sound good but I don't really want them because work keeps me occupied, and there are tons of things to do, but I don't have a choice.

So here I am, 1 year later and I don't seem to have progressed much. I still hurt too much, I still haven't reached the acceptance stage. I feel like I'm still mourning the loss of my marriage. I still feel I belong to him, although my brain tells me that I don't want the marriage as it was or WH as he is or even as he was. But I still feel I belong with him.

I guess I'm pretty messed up, but not clinically depressed yet.
In the next few days things will change. The girls will be leaving for the beach, and routines will change. I will probably be alone for 10 days, which I don't mind at all. Then they will come back and it's our birthdays (the twins and mine) at the end of january. They have to study for exams in february.

That's about it. Not much to update. Dark plan B.

Mimi, I just made it to level 9! A whole new world!

cc46--Long time no hear! It's good to know you're still keeping your nose above the turbulent waves. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

t&L

Hi t&l,

I always read your thread although on these 2 trips I didn't have much internet access, so I've missed some. I can't keep up with all your stories and Neak's and AW's !

I don't think Christmas will be merry this year, but hopefully it will be peaceful and full of hope for the futur!

Merry Christmas to all of you!

Try to have a good Christmas this year. You've been doing this for awhile, and no sense being miserable for another year.

Your trip to Rio and Peru sounds wonderful. I would love to go to these places. What is so dangerous about Peru. Here in the Estado Unidos, we don't hear much.

BTW,

I really envy you Christmas in winter!Just doesn't seem right when it's summer <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I visited Israel a few years ago in january and it can get cold over there, it even snowed a little one night I was visiting Jerusalem! Beautiful. I love snow but we never get it here, never.

I also went to Bethlehem and was really shocked at how wrong our image is of Jesus's birthplace! It's really a stone cave. It was supposed to be an inn, and the actual place where he was born was where they had the animals. Apparently it is one of the few "real" places.
Olive trees don't live for 2000 years os the ones in the garden aren't the same ones that were there in Jesus's time.

It was really very impressive. I still remember that visit, specially in these days.

Quote

I can't keep up with all your stories and Neak's

Neither can I! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Tomorrow will be Christmas Eve. It is still too extremely painful for me, but I hope that after surviving tomorrow, things will get way better. My life is good, but I'm not. That's what I have to work on.

WH was caught dining with his "new family" at a restaurant by my cousin and her H. She wants to tell me about it but so far hasn't been able to. I obviously have mixed feelings about hearing about it. But I think it's a good thing, because WH appreciated this cousin and her H and to be seen by them must have been a shock. Leading his secret life he has been protected from the effects of exposure...

Anyway, I really wanted to wish you all a peaceful Christmas and all the hope in the world that the New Year will be better.

I don't know what I would have done without my MB friends.
Thank you.

Quote

CC, wishing the best year ever in 2006.

Thanks FF, same to you. I have read how hard your sitch is. I will pray for you too.

My life is good, but I'm not. That's what I have to work on.

Oh CC - It's so hard to read that, knowing what a fine person you are.

Your deadline is coming up. You may have decisions to make. I would guess from your comment, that you get by, but that there is no color in your life. You just exist.

Of course none of us can change that for you. It has to come from you, and God. Between the two of you, do you have a plan?

I am interrested to know if you have it all worked out what you will do when your waiting time is up.

I also wish you a good Christmas. Not merry perhaps, that might be asking a lot, but decent. How would that look to you?

I wish you could see yourself as others (your MB friends) see you. Your happiness would double, or triple over night.

SS

SS, thanks for your kind words. They made me cry. See why I have to work on myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Most people probably see me as brave for standing up to the whole situation with dignity. That's OK. I didn't have a choice. That's me. but I feel so frustrated because I can't detach, I can't not think, I can't get over the disgust I feel, and I can't help feeling I failed WH because I wasn't able to keep him safely in the family. Our family.

I know I'm not responsible, but I feel I am.

As Orcid always says, my heart and mind are not in sync. Christmas has always been the family holiday for us, the most important one, more than anniversaries or birthdays. So after Christmas I hope to lose any hope I still have that he might come out of the fog.

By february I hope to havemy mind and heart in sync and have convinced myself (or realized actually) that WH will always be wayward or is not capable of regretting the A or feeling remorse. Therefore there would be no reason for me to continue plan B. and I would seek a divorce.

That's my plan. In the meantime if he made any move, I would be willing to help him get out of the A. Because I know it would be very difficult for him...

Thanks for your kind thoughts. Christmas will still be a family gathering. Chritmas eve with one of my brothers who has a 3 year old, my mother and my cousin and her family. Chritmas day another 2 brothers are coming to lunch. One of them lives in Miami and is visiting for the first time in 9 years. He has 2 severely handicapped children. Very sad.

so I'll be busy and surrounded by people who care, but after 1 year the A is not a subject we talk about much.

Next year will be different, hopefully better.

Have a Merry Christmas!

OK,
and it looks to me like you have enough going on to have a Merry Christmas too. I hope you do. *<:-D>

SS

Hi cc, just dropping by for a moment. Do you live near the snow? There is nothing like a cure for the doldrums involving getting deliciously frozen from running and playing in the snow. Inner tubing down hills is even better.

If there is no snow you can always blend ice and make snowballs, but your family will look at you funny.

a) go pound a pillow

b) go watch a hilariously funny movie

c) look in the mirror and repeat after me: I am a beautiful woman, I am a beautiful woman, I am a beautiful woman, on the inside, AND on the outside!

Time will heal the pain. That is the only consolation to give--this utter despair will not be your intimate companion for forever.

Wishing you the Merriest Christmas ever, Jen.

Thank you all for your advice.

Neak it is summer in the southern hemisphere, so I don't have snow. Christmas Spirit isn't the same when there isn't snow. I could go to the beach <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Christmas means family to me. That's why it's so hard. But I'll survive, probably won't have time to think much with all I have to do.

Thank you all. MB is a life savor.

Have a Merry Christmas!

SS,

I didn't answer the part about God. I am catholic and have had a strong personal relationship with Him. I don't think I would be where I am if I hadn't. On dday, the first thing that came to my mind was that this was part of God's plan for me and that I trust him.

Now I pray for peace and forgiveness and to be able to leave WH behind. If that's what He wants for me. I'll tell you a secret. I don't know how to realize when I should really let go, because in Plan B you are still married, and unfortunately I feel very married. So I ask Him to take away the mark of my wedding band as a sign that the marriage is over. I took it off after d day and gave it to WH. He took it with him when he left. But I still have the mark and it's been 14 months. I have no other marks from other rings I used to wear although none was on my fingers for so long.

Every sunday, when I am in Church I look at my finger, and the mark is there. I still miss the ring, it meant so much to me, even though it's a simple gold band, with WH's name and our wedding date written inside.

Somehow I believe that until I divorce him I won't ever start to lose hope. That's why divorce will have to come before personal recovery.

That's just my case. I know others have been able to recover themselves before divorcing. That would be better.

Dr. Harley told me to wait for 2 years, because by then I would either have recovered my marriage or be divorced. That's 10 months away. That's another deadline I may consider in february when I reach my first deadline. We'll see.

Time is important.

cc -

You are expecting things to happen much too fast. It took me around 2 years before I started to feel okay, and 2 1/2 years before I felt GREAT again. After all, we loved our husbands, and that feeling isn't going to disappear quickly.

I think the key is making yourself a wonderful life. I have stayed very busy. My whole life has changed, and it feels good. I decided not to just wait around, marking time, for my husband.

You will get there too. I hope you have a nice Christmas with your family. Don't think about the infidels. They will fall apart soon enough.

I try not to think about the infidels and keep busy. I'm following your suggestions and hoping that you are right and that it won't take me forever to get over WH.

I remember my grandmother, 30 years after her divorce she was still in love with my grandfather. It was so obvious and sad.

I don't want to be like that. My grandfather wasn't worth it, he was unfaithful and selfish. I also wouldn't like WH to be like my grandfather but all I can do for him is pray.

In spite of my grandparents divorce none of their 4 daughters ever divorced and the grandkids started only very recently. So it's a family where divorce is not common.

I'll wait until february, and keep busy until then.

Thank you for your advice, you are such and admirable human being, it's an honor for me that you take time to post to me.

Merry Christmas!

cc -

I always enjoy hearing from you. I just don't want you to go through all the misery and wasting time that I did, although I guess that is part of what helps a person recover.

Now my life is much different than I ever planned, but it is a good life. I always thought that I would never be interested in another man, but some of them are looking good right now.

I think DR Harley is right about D needing to come before recovery. You are loyal, and that is a good thing. I just wish he was worth being loyal to. It looks as though he is not.

I mentioned God, because he always knows what is best. Prayer has helped me so much over my life. I know he is there, and I know he will help me - and you. I do get guidance when I ask for it. I expect it, and I expect it for you.

With all this family visiting you, when will you ever get any rest?

SS

I won't get any rest today or tomorrow, that's for sure! But that's also good. It will keep my mind off the things I should avoid thinking about, like past Christmases, the fact that I suspect MIL is having WH WITH OW over tonight, so OW will be "accepted" into the family, the fact that dds seem to be angry, but haven't said why, etc

But next week I'll get some rest.I'm on holidays and don't have to get up early. I'm staying home for New Year's eve because of the dog who gets very anxious and nervous with all the fireworks. DDs will probably go out after midnight and on the 1st january they leave for the beach.

I will then go back to work but be alone at home with the dog for 10 days. I'll be doing lots of thinking and praying I think.

cc46, just want to wish you a good new year's and stay strong!

{{ hugs }}

~A

Thanks Ashley, I will. I guess the Christmas Spirit, even in summer , was too much for me. But I will stay strong. I have to. It's the best choice, but it is a choice and my feelings are sort of dragging me away from the choice of being happy and strong.

Happens every now and then. But I'll get back to my happy state soon.

Have to make the best of this week of holidays I have.

Quote

the fact that I suspect MIL is having WH WITH OW over tonight, so OW will be "accepted" into the family,

That's awful!!

I got my H a globe for Xmas..

Now that I know where you are I can pay a visit to your MIL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, the moment you posted I was talking with one of MIL's friends and confirming that WH took OW to her house.

So she has now become the queen of enablers.

I never liked her and always felt sort of sorry for her, but now, this is the last straw. And all for money, because WH is providing them al with money.

BIL didn't even call.

the in laws is one of the reasons that makes divorce and getting away from that family attractive.

But yesterday I was thinking that I may as well wait the whole two years since I am carrying out Dr. Harley's plan exactly as he indicates. After all I don't have any reason why I shouldn't (unless there are financial problems) and if WH ever asks for a divorce I will say yes, but can we talk about it and invite him over to wish him all the best in his selfishness. I promise I will try to avoid LBs and DJs.

I have to practice that conversation.

I wish you would come and give MIL a piece of your mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I need help.

I want to write a plan B to MIL. I don't want her to ever talk to me again. What should I say?

When I sent her Xmas present over with dd she sent me the message that she hadn't wrapped mine so she wasn't sending it.
Still han't got here.She probably didn't even buy me one now she has so many new DILs. but if she should ever send me something, I'd like to give it back with a letter.

There's no reason for me to keep being hyprocritical about the relationship. DDs have already realized their GM doesn't care for them, and WH is more interested in his mother's approval of OW.

How I wish I didn't want my marriage to be saved, it would be so much easier.

anyone?

Use some of the same ideas from a regular PBL.

MIL,

When WH & I first married, the relationship I had with you was very meaningful, and I have always seen you as a second mother. [Insert a fond reminiscence here, if you can.]

I understand that you are put in a difficult situation by WH's choices, and that he will always be your son. However, loving him and supporting him in the destruction of his family are two separate things, and you have chosen the latter.

There is nothing I can do to change you, but I can decide what kind of people I choose to have around me. Because you have shown disrespect to WH's and my marriage by your actions, I choose not to have any further association with you. Please do not contact me, and I will not contact you. My daughters will be allowed to make their own choices.

I'm sorry that your decisions, and those of WH have led to this break in our relationship. I wish you all the best.

CC

That is what I would say, now maybe someone else can improve on it.

CC:

Neak's letter is good..

But I don't think she is even worth the time of a letter..

I would say EXCOMMUNICATION as I learned in the book BOLD LOVE...

Handle folks like her by pretending that she no longer exists..Xing her out of your life...

Ignore all of her calls..send back her presents..

NOTHING...

Neak, thanks so much I loved the letter! No wonder you're a writer! Someday I'll buy onne of your books.

Mimi, I was doubting whether to excommunicate her like you say or write a letter. I'm leaning towards writing the letter, because excommunicating her would be "rude" and because she's still the grandmother of my kids and because I want to give her a chance.

She became very religious a few years back but it seems that only in appearances. Life hasn't been very kind to her and she helped by making all the wrong decisions. She bet on my SIL1 and BIL1, who are broke, in debt, no futur and ended up paying their bills and cooking for them every day and making dinner for them to take home. So she's basically their maid for the things the maid at home doesn;t do for them and as source of money for any whims they have. I haven't spoken to them in years and I had no problem excommunicating THEM nor did WH when he realized their only interest was money.

I think I will write the letter because I want things to be absolutely clear for her. It's further exposure.

I'll write itout and wait for a chance to give it to her, be it with the "Xmas present" that probably doesn't exist or for my birthday, next month.

Thanks for your answers.

I have an appointment with a psychitrist on thursday. I've finally decided I need something to help me get thru this, so I'm asking for ADs.

I guess I see your point, CC..

I'm glad that you are seeing the psychiatrist..

Hard for me to understand your being "nice" or considerate to someone who entertains the OW...

Further exposure doesn't seem necessary in regards to your MIL..Your WH FULLY EXPOSED to her...

Mimi,

this is a very small place. I read what a hassle it is for you to avoid your OW. Imagine it 10 times worse.

I can't leave town or go someplace else because of my job, and because there would be no place for the girls to study.

I have no choice but to stay here. MIL lives very near, so does WH. I won't avoid them forever.
In feb a niece's of WH's is getting married. I'm very close to the girls grandmother and her parents have been very nice too. I'm sure I will be invited but I won't be able to go. I can't face them all.

And I'm sure they will be as sorry as I am.

And the exposure part is because if she wants to tell anyone, she might show the letter. And then my intentions will be clear, not something she makes up.

I'm already writing it and will carry it around with me to give to her as soon as I can.

I understand, CC...

Good points...

This is really tough love!

Well today DD asked me what I was doing on New Year's eve. I answered that I was staying home with the dog, alone. And I asked her what they had decided. She said she thought they would go to dinner someplace with WH so I felt I had to tell her of my decision to plan B MIL and warn them that WH might expect OW to go with them.

So we talked with all 3 dds and it turns out that MIL had told dd that OW was spending Xmas there when she went on the 24th to take MIL's present. She also told her not to tell me on the 24th so as not to spoilmy Xmas and that she was not at all happy about it but she wanted to spend Xmas with her sons. She also said that she was worried about me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

She sure doesn't know how to show it!!!!!!

So I WILL plan B her. She has to suffer the consequences of her actions, although I'm sure that it will affect her more than she'll show to the outside world. I'm sort of sorry for her, but she insists on making bad decisions!

I made it very clear to dds that it was MY position and they could do whatever they felt. All three refuse to see OW.

So as expected the holiday season was going to be tough!

Quote

So I WILL plan B her. She has to suffer the consequences of her actions, although I'm sure that it will affect her more than she'll show to the outside world. I'm sort of sorry for her, but she insists on making bad decisions!

I made it very clear to dds that it was MY position and they could do whatever they felt. All three refuse to see OW.

I think it is the best decision for YOU, cc and your DD's. They will respect you for this in the long run. Happy New Year and may 2006 be a better year for you.

Thanks FF, I hope 2006 is a better yar for you too.

I also think this is about respect, and in the long term that is what I care most about. I would hate dds to think that infidelity is OK, because everyone accepted it. So every chance I can I explain that it's not right, whichever way you look at it.

At this point, even I'm convinced that I'm doing the right thing!

I just wrote a long post and lost it.

Short version dd was told by MIL on Christmas Eve that OW was spending it at her house, although she did not like it. But she wanted to spend the evening with her sons.

MIL told dd not to tell me because she was worried about me and didn't want to spoil my Xmas <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

so I'm going ahead with plan Bing her so that she knows that her actions will have consequences.

Just have to find the moment

I warned dds that WH might expect them to share New Year's eve with OW to which all three answered NO WAY!

so we'll see what happens.

I'm doing my posting drive-bys... How are you doing cc??

It's tough when dealing with MIL's. After all, WH's are their sons.
Fighting infidelity is getting more and more difficult. And pple having A's are getting a little more blatant than before. Most ppl surrounding me - when I say that my H left me because of an A, their reaction is "so? that's so common!" (and with a shrug of the shoulders too) A blase attitude to a very wrong and unethical doing. More and more so, it's also the use and throw away mentality. Take what you want.. throw what you don't. Sometimes I wonder what the world's coming to these days.

~A

Hi Ashley,

I have also found that lots of people just shrug and say, well so what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

BUT, you also have to realize that probably at least 50% of the people out there have been unfaithful, so they are only adjusting their morals to their actions. That's why MB in some way does not represent the real world. All of us here believe in marriage, both the BS and the WS. In the real world there are WS and BS who either don't know enough or don't care enough to defend their marriages.

I finally went to see a psychiatrist because I was on another of my crying periods, and he was very nice and gave me ADs. He said that if I had gone a few months before he would have told me to wait but more than a year was too long and I was too sensitive or cared too much.

I told him I had my MB friends but the visit was too short for me to explain Dr. Harley's whole theory etc. I don't think he had any particular theory to follow. After all, infidelity is so common, you never know when you're talking to someone who has been unfaithful and will probably defend their actions.

So now I'm waiting for the ADs to work.

I still haven't talked to MIL or given her the letter. I carry it in my purse. Maybe dd has warned her I was angry. We'll see.

I'm not looking forward to tonight. My mother and my aunt will be coming to dinner. I've ad several invitations to join other family members, but I refused because I am really not in the mood and I also have the dog to take care of. The dog goes crazy with the fireworks, but this year I bought him a sedative, so I hope it will be better.

On the other hand I now also have to stay until I'm sure that WH will not try to impose OW on dds. That means waiting until the last minute, because he the way he's been behaving he will just "surprise" them. I want them to be able to come home if that happens because we've talked about it and none of them want to spend one minute with OW.

So this will not be a very good day, but I'll survive and tomorrow will be a whole new day, and the start of the summer madness.

All 3 dds will be leaving, the twins have rented a house on the beach with friends for 2 weeks and dd3 is going to a summer camp with school for 10 days.

Normally I enjoy being alone. We'll see.

Happy New Year Ashley. Let's not lose hope that things will turn out for the better if we sick to what's right!

Happy New Year to you, CC

Hi cc46...just wanted to let you know that I am reading you...and wanted to give you a hug... even if we are going to be 'alone'... there's actually a few of us in the same boat, right?

Happy New Year!

Happy New Year FF and Luna!

At least we know that SOMETHING will have to happen in 2006 and at least we KNOW that it's not finding out we are being cheated on! So, who knows... Trust God.

Quote

at least we KNOW that it's not finding out we are being cheated on

ha, cc46. How true.

I cld see a bit of the fireworks from my apartment at the stroke of midnight.

~A

I survived!

I am so glad 2005 is over. It was the worst year of my life. I so hope 2006 is the year for us. My H left me alone for new years. I put a good face on for the kids and we banged pots and pans but I was sobbing while saying the nightly prayers with them. It is awful all this crying. I am so depressed.

D day was Dec. 1st. I was doing Plan A but printed off a Plan B letter today and gave it to him. He said he did not want to read it right now and we went out for a nice New Years dinner but he got really mad at me on the way home because I went out last night and was mysterious about who I was with. One of the people told me he was doing cocaine! He wanted to know super badly who told me that and of course he denied having that addiction.

So many addictions I am reeling. Maybe in love with another woman? total daily drinker, pot occassionally and now coke? I am at my witts end.

I have not had a chance to read this whole thread but I need help with Plan B.

In the letter I said I wanted him to call before coming over. I thought if he would say I want to see the kids from say 4pm to 7pm I would just leave before 4 and come back after he has left at 7pm. I really am starting to hate him for all this agony he is putting us through. I want to preserve my feelings of love thus plan B and no contact until he ends the affair and I want a phone call from her leaving a message that it really is over. I don't want to be in a triangle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I took away his cell phone though because that allowed him to have this secret life and I am paying all the bills. I will not support his affair. He asked me how much in support I was going to pay to him! I laughed and said excuse me? you are having an affair on me? Hello? time to grow up and deal with your bad decisions.

I better try and get some rest. After the coke story last night I came home and we talked from 230am to 530am. We both cried and said sorry for letting each other down but of course no words of the affair is over.

He is not ready yet and it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Any advice/support would be wonderful. I mostly read (I have posted a bit of my story) but I am hurting badly right now. No New Years with my man? First time in 11 years! God it hurts!... but I guess he is not my man anymore, he has a mental illness, he is an alien. Where is my husband? He's in a fog of addiction and I cannot help him. Can I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> amy

Hi Amy,

I'm sorry you are here but you will get the best help. It's best if you start a threadof your own where you can copy your post and add a few details so that people can post to you and give you help.

I'm still too involved in my own sitch to be of much help but there are many experineced people who will give you a hand.

Happy New Year!

Happy New Year, cc46. Thinking of you and wishing you the best.

t&l

Thanks t&l and all the best for all the clan for 2006!

Happy New Year CC.
Sorry for the hard times, but hoping this next year is better.

SS

HNY CC, may it bring happy times....{{{{Amy}}}}}

Hi cc46 - just checking in to say hi - 2006 is going to be better!

Kim

Guys, I'm sure 2006 will be better for US , unfortunately there will be many more coming on this forum with sad stories...

The reaction a lot of people have had to my being so honest about WH's A makes me think that tehre must be many skeletons in closets...

MIL never sent me my Xmas present (maybe she gave it to OW) and although she was with WH, BIL, and my daughters for New Years she didn't call or greet me. So I'm thinking that both MIL and BIL have REPLACED me completely.

Notice OW wasn't included in the NY celebration, probably because dds have told WH that they will not be with her. Luckily he respected that.

Anyway, MIL has been excommunicated. So has BIL. Blood is thicker than water in this case. She will have to face the consequences. Unfortunately it has hurt me alot. But I can imagine how the guilt will affect her.

So 2006 will be better.

Thank you for being such good friends, those who post and those who read. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

No updates.

Just wanted to comment that during the excitement we had on the forum these last few days I noticed that both Ashley, an OW, and View (I think that was part of his name)a WS, WANTED the BS to ask for divorce. I think that is exactly what WH wants.

I wonder if any WS can explain why they feel it necessary for the BS to file? Is it only to feel less guilty?

That, and so they can then blame the BS fully for the breakup of the M. "They did it, not me." (Halo.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It is so funny you say that because I feel that is exactly what my H wants me to do... But he has no idea that I will not be doing that...

Very interesting question!!! It must be, as said above, the blame thing again...

I don't think Dr. Harley warns us BS that WS will expect or hope for this... I'll check my SAA in case he does

It's part of the delusional justification of the A..like rewriting history..

She didn't love me anyway..she didn't fignt for me..she didn't wait for me..she went ahead and got a divorce..

That's what the OW in my situation was counting on CC..that I would go ahead and make the move..

Lots of times, WSes don't really want to commit to the OPs..want to just play and pretend like it's not really happening..they are living in a fantasy world..LA LA LAND..

DIVORCE IS PART OF THE REAL WORLD....

well then, it's just one more reason NOT to divorce before at least 2 years... That should give them enough time to get over the delusional phase

That's what I'm leaning towards...

And will you be OK going on for that long?

It really shouldn't matter what he does or what he thinks after a while. We know what he is -

There comes a point when you have to think about YOU. About your own mental and emotional health. And not just "can I endure this" but you must think about your happiness and about being an example to your daughters. If they were ever in such am emotionally abusive situation, what would you recommend they do?

Now, having said this, I am not recommending any one course of action. Just wanted you to think about all the sides. Remember to consider yourself too, you are important and someone needs to speak up for you.

SS

cc46 -

I do think too that many WS wait for the BS to make that move. That's just one more thing that they aren't "responsible" for!

Take Care,

Kim

SS, I'm fine waiting for a while longer. I have absolutely no interest in "men" in THAT sense, I'm enjoying my freedom.

Actually all this has happened at the same time as my dds were becoming totally independant. So all our lives have changed a lot. They don't depend on me anymore and I don't have to take care of them anymore. We just all live together!
True, it was one thing that bothered WH: that his precious daughters were independant and he was losing control over them.

So now I'm on Ads and have my emotions under control, I am starting to consistently enjoy life. I also enjoy the freedom I have being on my own.

I'm still sorry for the life WH has chosen and horrified that his mother and brother have chosen to enable and support him. But I can totally detach from all that.

So I do think that I will wait until I really want to be divorced. For whatever reason.

I do have doubts that I will ever get back with WH, but then I read people like Mimi, or FF and I start wondering...

God will let me know.

Did you know that I got to LEVEL 7?

Sounds like you are doing great.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi CC! Just popped in to say hello.

..me, too, just wanted to say, HI!

Hi everyone!
FF, You HAVE GOT TO BE TOO BUSY to come and say hi! Get back to your life! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm so happy for you.

Luna, you are becoming the Queen of Plan B!

Mimi, I am now officially stuck on level 11! You're going to catch up!

Met WH's other secretary today. Unfortunately I listened. Everytime I do this I realize how clever Dr. Harley is with plan B and recommending you not hear anything.

Doesn't really matter what he has said, but she's looking for another job in order to leave. She says the way OW and friend are behaving everyone is in a bad mood. WH has completely changed.

From another friend I heard that there are people wondering what's going on with the business because they use to trust him and have had some strange experiences lately...

The secretary says neither seems very happy.

Anyway, I hope to be strong enough to not listen next time.

One of dds came home for a few days but she left again today. Better for me. I have some excitement at work! And plenty to do.

So far I'm doing fine. I'm listening very carefully to God's whispers.

Hi cc -

I'm glad you are doing so good. It sounds like you are beginning to enjoy some peace and contentment in your "new" life. It sure beats the turmoil of living with WS and all the "baggage" that comes along with it, doesn't it?

I'm curious how long you've been on AD's?

Georgia

21 days!
At 10 days I noticed that the pain was dull. No sharpa edges to that anymore. And the best thing is that I don't feel restless and anxious all the time. So I think they are having a good effect. I have another appointment on the 26th.

Hi there, other time zone!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Howzit? Keep your chin up. It gives the devil something to aim at! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Am I pissed!!!!!!

MIL just phoned pretending that everything was fine and she just wanted to wish me happy birthday because she's going to the beach for a few days (not that she doesn't make phone calls from over there! but I guess this one was special).

I LBed all over and told her to never call me again. She uses the argument that she doesn't approve of WH's A but the fact that she ivited OW over for Xmas doesn't mean that she can't have a good relationship with me!!!!!!!!!

It's over now. Just wasn't expecting it. I still have the letter in my purse. I guess I can throw it away.

No reason for you to get angry.
MIL has faults, you know she does. Because she does something wrong, doesn't mean you have to react to it.

I don't know if I would talk to her either, but this is about the way YOU react to what is happening, not what others do.

If you can avoid returning hurt for hurt, you will be well along in your personal recovery.

Did I say that right?

I don't mean to say you are doing it wrong, but what I am trying to say is similar to what many here have said before - something along the lines of "the best revenge is living well." All you have to do is be the best you can be, and ignore the ones that are making such great mistakes. That is by far the best lesson for them.

Now, having said all that, are you OK now?

SS

SS, thanks for replying. It was not my intention to LB but she caught me off guard. I should have taken the letter out of my ourse and read it to her.

Now I find out that she was going with WH (and probably OW).

Anyway, it's not my intention to hurt her. But to protect myself. And although she's not perfect, she has actually NEVER been a nice person either. So why bother with a person like ethat when she rejects me? I can't help her except by pointing things out clearly and not pretending that nothing is wrong as my mother would have me do.

I am learning to choose what I want for myself. Control my own life, which is what I can do. And not let others impose themselves on me.

Truth is that I think that it will be very very difficult for WH and I to get together again. But getting rid of WH 's family is a great relief. He never bothered much with them and it was always I keeping the relationship with his family. Although I really wasn't very convinced they were people I wantd to be associated with. Now I'm free to choose.

I'm OK. The anger is gone and I have decided I will send her the letter anyway. So she can't ignore the facts.

Really nothing much to update...

My birthday came and went and not a word from WH. The twins birthday came, he sent them flowers but was spending a week at the beach house so he didn't see them.

Work is fine, sometimes exciting, sometimes maddeing but it keeps me on my toes and I really have to be thankful to have the job I have. Actually I consider myself very very lucky and thank God everyday. Instead of putting the radio on in the car I sing my thanks all the way to work!

The Ads are helping because I not at all emotional anymore about WH. I've been able to come to a few conclusions.
1. I think I AM behaving as if he had died. I don't give up being his wife even though he's not around. But I also think that he will never have the guts to come back or admit his mistake. But that does not change MY position. The other day I really had a shock when my SIL suggested I should just accept the situation and behave as though we were divorced because "he's been living with OW for a year" so they are now a couple! I was really pissed and alarmed at the fact that she could accept that, even when I suggested she think what her attitude would be if it were someone in HER family.
Frightening. But a good reminder that only a minority share our beliefs in commitment and marriage.

2. So with this attitude I can only remain in plan B until I am ready to get a divorce. Who knows when that will be.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I know it's not now.

3. WH continues to financially support us.
Dds are still angry with him. They have only partially expressed it yet. They don't want me to talk about WH or the A. Maybe they want to protect me.

Otherwise they are doing OK, back to studying after the holidays.

That's it. Nothing much to report.

I never sent MIL the letter. This coming 25th I have been invited to WH's niece's wedding but I think I won't go. I'll call the parents and tell them I wouldn't feel comfortable and nor would WH or the rest of his family who all enable the A.

I'm actually very relieved to be distanced from WH's family. They are the kind of people it's best to avoid when possible.

Sounds like things are going okay. I'm going on over 3 years, and still not divorced, so don't worry about that. You will know when it is time, if it ever is.

Glad you are avoiding the relatives. I cut out anyone who supported the affair, and don't miss them at all.

Beliver, I think I'm following in your footsteps!

I have comments but not time.
Later.
SS

Hi cc46 -

Thanks for checking in on my posts.......How long is it that you ahve been in Plan B?

Some days I think I can go on with this for quite some time. Others I think that I am wasting my time and holding myself back from pursuing other things(family business, new relationship)

Do you ever feel that way?

Kim

I never felt it was holding me back - except for having another relationship. I've used these 3 years to do a lot of self-examination and changing. My life is so different than before D-day that some days I can't believe it.

The best part is that I have no regrets - probably could have done better on some things, but mostly did my best. Instead of dreading divorce, now I can hardly wait.

Kim,

I've been in plan B for 14 months now. No contact with WH. He has been very respectful of my wishes, however weird that may seem.

I don't feel I'm wasting time. The only thing that you cannot do is date. And I'm not only not ready for that, but I'm not interested. It's like being a widow. I wouldn't be interested in dating yet.

And on the other hand, what better choice is there than to be in plan B? Would I like to interact with a WS? or be frindly with all the enablers? or accept the OW?

No way. I'm much better off defending marriage and fidelity!

Update for any who may be interested.

14 months of plan B with NO CONTACT with WH except a couple of e mails about bills.

It’s unreal. I just don’t feel it’s real yet. It’s like I have this life and the past is a dream, it seems so long ago… I don’t know how I got here.

I’ve been taking Ads for 3 months and they have been good in the sense that I am able to enjoy my job (dream job I NEVER even dreamed I would get) and that I don’t cry anymore. The hurt is there, so is the pain but I don’t feel it. Sounds weird but that’s what I feel.

I’m not over WH in the sense that I think of him every second my mind isn’t occupied in something else, but I don’t miss WH, I sometimes miss my H (I’m not one for missing much) but I do miss my marriage.

I am sure I want nothing to do with WH. I feel absolute revulsion for him. I’m afraid that if I have to see him I’ll puke, it’s that bad.

Now if my husband came back that would be different.

So now I have a life with dds. We’re quite comfortable. I do what I want since they aren’t dependant on me anymore. We get on well. Life is good. They don’t like to talk about WH, they don’t agree with me plan Bing MIL. I’m starting to worry that they have too much anger and resentment for WH still, but then he is wayward and behaves wayward. So even if he doesn’t see them often I don’t mind, as long as he’s wayward. Anyway it’s his problem, not mine.
I just wish I could do something to lessen the pain for dds. But how can I explain those weird behaviours, the fact that he went on holidays several times and never took them or spent time with them (because he’s with OW), he didn’t even bother to come to their birthday etc.

It’s hard to have to just watch.
I try to be consistent, always there for them.

I stay home a lot because it’s what I like to do, I’ve always liked to stay home. So that’s nothing new.

So I’ve been thinking that I’ll wait 2 years in this limbo unless he wants a divorce before that. This is in honor of my vows, of my marriage, of the fact that I’ve loved him for 19 years and that Dr. Harley says that As end in 2 years. Maybe by that time I’ll be more detached.

I have an idea of the kind of marriage I want in the future, whether it is with WH or someone else. And I don’t want anything less than that. I sincerely doubt that WH would be willing to fulfill the requirements, nor would H. So what I’m trying to find out now is why I married him, and why I was willing to continue to be married to him for the rest of my life. There is no rational explanation, but I’m working on it.

It’s funny. I remember reading reasons why it’s best to try to recover your marriage instead of getting a divorce when there is infidelity during the first few weeks of studying this subject after dday. I didn’t keep or copy those reasons, but they convinced me at the time.

Months later, I e mailed Dr. Harley and asked him. Surprisingly he said he couldn’t give me any reasons why it was better. He just told me to hold on for 2 years, by that time I would be divorced or recovered.

I have to solve this too. Are there enough reasons?

I think I’ve learned a lot. I’m learning to stand up for myself and do what I want to do and what I think is right. I’m not avoiding conflict as much.

I have great dreams and I even remember them!

So that’s it. Nothing exciting.

One other thing I would like to comment on is the issue of “respect”. These last few years I’ve noticed that people “respected” me. So did H and so does WH. Maybe that’s why he hasn’t been so mean or hurtful about finances and hasn’t tried to force OW on dds. But so far that is the only advantage of being respected that I have noticed in this situation. It hasn’t made the A shorter or less devastating for me.

BTW, are you guys receiving posts from your favorite threads by e mail? I haven't got any for a couple of days now.

CC,

Respect has been your protection. But the WS can't be a good WS (i.e. bad everything else) unless he creates disrespect. So if he is still a Ws, it is just a matter of when.

Btw, recovery comes in 2 types: Personal and marital.

Personal is an individual achievement
Marital requires both to participate.

I know you can achieve the personal one. You can also be a good cotnributor to the marital one but if that doesn't happnen you w/b a jewel in your next R.

Take care of yourself, you are precious. Not many jewels out there..... but a lot of OWs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Orchid.

I am very wary of his probable disrespect. I'm just surprised it hasn't happened yet.

His very A is disrespectful. He just is keeping some of his obligations.

You have a right to reverse babble and make his A life miserable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

I'm actually making the most of this peace (plan B) to try to make the best of and for myself. I plan to personally recover. And the rest of my life will be wonderful!

I can't reverse babble because I don't talk to him, nor have I for more than a year! He's making his own life miserable enough, doesn't need any help.

Hi cc46--Good to see that you've still got at least one nostril above the turbulent waves. For myself, I'm attempting to learn how to breathe water! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

t&l, one of these days I'll go visit you, even underwater!

Update for any who may be interested.

Thanks. I missed a lot before my trip because of work deadlines. Glad I came back and found this.

I’m not over WH in the sense that I think of him every second my mind isn’t occupied in something else, but I don’t miss WH, I sometimes miss my H (I’m not one for missing much) but I do miss my marriage.

I suspect you miss closeness, and togetherness. Sharing, doing things for someone you love. I guess that is much of what marriage is.

Your feelings are important. You are important. Do you know that?

I just wish I could do something to lessen the pain for dds. But how can I explain those weird behaviours, the fact that he went on holidays several times and never took them or spent time with them (because he’s with OW), he didn’t even bother to come to their birthday etc.

The truth is the truth. You can't change this. Mothers hate to see children in pain............. Sometimes there is nothing we can do, except help them through it. Your strength and example will help them the most.

It’s hard to have to just watch.
I try to be consistent, always there for them.

That's what I mean. They might not acknowledge what you do for them, but they would be lost without it. Just keep doing it.

I stay home a lot because it’s what I like to do, I’ve always liked to stay home. So that’s nothing new.

I did this once for someone else, but I'll do it for you too. Home is where my heart is also.

Home

IT takes a heap o' livin' in a house t' make it home,
A heap o' sun an' shadder, an' ye sometimes have t' roam
Afore ye really 'preciate the things ye lef' behind,
An' hunger fer 'em somehow, with 'em allus on yer mind.
It don't make any differunce how rich ye get t' be,
How much yer chairs an' tables cost, how great yer luxury;
It ain't home t' ye, though it be the palace of a king,
Until somehow yer soul is sort o' wrapped round everything.

Home ain't a place that gold can buy or get up in a minute;
Afore it's home there's got t' be a heap o' livin' in it;
Within the walls there's got t' be some babies born, and then
Right there ye've got t' bring 'em up t' women good, an' men;
And gradjerly as time goes on, ye find ye wouldn't part
With anything they ever used -- they've grown into yer heart:
The old high chairs, the playthings, too, the little shoes they wore
Ye hoard; an' if ye could ye'd keep the thumb-marks on the door.

Ye've got t' weep t' make it home, ye've got t' sit an' sigh
An' watch beside a loved one's bed, an' know that Death is nigh;
An' in the stillness o' the night t' see Death's angel come,
An' close the eyes o' her that smiled, an' leave her sweet voice dumb.
Fer these are scenes that grip the heart, an'when yer tears are dried,
Ye find the home is dearer than it was, an' sanctified;
An' tuggin' at ye always are the pleasant memories
O' her that was an' is no more -- ye can't escape from these.

Ye've got t' sing an' dance fer years, ye've got t' romp an' play,
An' learn t' love the things ye have by usin' 'em each day;
Even the roses 'round the porch must blossom year by year
Afore they 'come a part o' ye, suggestin' someone dear
Who used t' love 'em long ago, an' trained 'em jes t' run
The way they do, so's they would get the early mornin' sun;
Ye've got t' love each brick an' stone from cellar up t' dome:
It takes a heap o' livin' in a house t' make it home.

Edgar A. Guest

I have an idea of the kind of marriage I want in the future, whether it is with WH or someone else. And I don’t want anything less than that.

And you shouldn't accept anything less than that either. If he doesn't come back willing to be what he should be, then why WOULD you want him?

So what I’m trying to find out now is why I married him, and why I was willing to continue to be married to him for the rest of my life. There is no rational explanation, but I’m working on it.

It warmed my heart to read this, and know you are searching for answers. One can progress when one is willing to find answers.

It’s funny. I remember reading reasons why it’s best to try to recover your marriage instead of getting a divorce when there is infidelity during the first few weeks of studying this subject after dday. I didn’t keep or copy those reasons, but they convinced me at the time.

Months later, I e mailed Dr. Harley and asked him. Surprisingly he said he couldn’t give me any reasons why it was better. He just told me to hold on for 2 years, by that time I would be divorced or recovered.

For you it's better because you need to know you did all you could. If you did not do all you could, it would eat at you forever. I think you understood this.

I think I’ve learned a lot. I’m learning to stand up for myself and do what I want to do and what I think is right. I’m not avoiding conflict as much.

I have seen you change. Perhaps all of us have a lot to learn even now, but you have come far in your journey. I hope you can see what we see. Sometimes people are proud, and can't see their faults. Sometimes they are humble, and can't see their strengths. I hope you can see your strengths - I don't think pride is a problem for you.

I have great dreams and I even remember them!

Perhaps it's time to think more of them, and to tell us about them. Don't be shy, we do care. One should never forget their dreams.

I read this somewhere many years ago, and have never forgotten it.

"Happy are those that dream dreams,
and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."

May your best dreams come true.

SS

Hi SS!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good to have you back! I hope you had a nice trip.

I'm so busy lately I haven't been able to keep up with t&l's thread, but shhhhh don't tell her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your comments. I feel comforted. and I love the poem. I realize I'm a person who always makes a home: whether at home, the summer house or the office. And I tend to like being wherever my "home is"...

Since the last post things have changed a lot. Better. You see it was my 20th wedding anniversary on the 14th. Just like last year I went to church but this year I've been attending a different church with a great priest and I've been thinking his teachings, because I'd never heard things like that before. I had talked to him a year ago probably a few weeks after starting plan B and he had told me that God didn't want me to suffer and that I did very good in separating.
Anyway I deicded to talk to him again. He was very comforting but surprisingly for the first time in 3 months I started crying again and feeling really desperate and anxious. This lasted about 3 days but then for some reason I can't exxplain I finally got it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I now know that I can be happy, actually it's more like being full of joy! and that's how it's been since then. I know what kind of life I want and deserve and I do know I deserve it and can have it if I want it. So now I'm sure it all depends on me I am joyful. Anyway, not easy to explain, but I guess it's the good kind of recovery. Thanks to MB and all the wonderful people here.

As I said on FGG's thread, my marriage now seems to me to be like childhood. Something that happened but ended, but so long ago...

I guess I now understand why it is actually the BS who really determines the outcome because to tell you the truth, I feel I don't want to bother with all the hard work recovery would mean. But I will keep my commitment, wait the 2 years and if before that my H should come back but willing to try for a great marriage I would give him a chance. But he has to change a lot.

I will no longer tolerate lies, dishonesty, family always last on his list of priorities, no communication etc.

So far he's being financially responsible. But if that changes I really would prefer a divorce.

Anyway have to go now. Thank you for coming back! It's always great to see you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's always good to see you too. I admire your courage.

SS

It's funnyyou should say that SS. I consider myself a coward and proclaim myself as such.

I'm frightened of going ut at night, I'm a conflict avoider but thanks to MB I'm learning how to overcome that gingerly, I'm terrified of violence!

Anyway,this weekend I have to do something which encompasses all my fears: I have to assess my employees. And give them their evaluations.

Now this may not seem extraordinary for you, but here it is not a "usual" thing and if there are assessments thay are always fake.

This will be my first time with these people I have been working with for a year. But to make matters a little more complicated they recently went to the authorities and complained that I "mistreated" or abused them. This is not true but I guess they couldn't find anything else serious enough to complain about. So it is a complicated situation for those who have to decide what to do.

It's simple for me (now that I'm on the way to being an MB success PERSON and that I have dedicated a lot of the time I have in plan B to reacquainting myself with Christ). I will do the best I can to be truthful and objective.

I'm OK with that part. I just don't know what the consequences may be.

BTW SS, I've been wanting to ask you for a while now, whta does your wife think of your participating so much in MB? You don't have to answer obviously, but I am curious.

Awwhh CC, you are a courageous woman. More than that you now have the opportunity to apply MB principals to your employees. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I did the same. I planned A all my employees. One precidence I set early on was to tell each one personally that I don't like to give bad reviews so don't give me that reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I must commend my former employees (company was later sold), my staff made my work challenging in some ways but each of them gave their best. I must say that their attitude help us as a group weather any stitz that came against us and believe me, lots of [censored] came our way. LOL!!! I later plan B'd some co-workers who were just sooo stupid..... like the highly compensated project manager who tried to make me do his work for him because he said his only assignment was to carry a box from his office to mine. I not only reverse babbled to him but I exposed his little plot to his superior and I loved it. LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So use what you know and move forward with the dignity and grace that is within you.

U can do it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BTW, good job on helping tears. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Aloha,
L.

Tnaks Orchid. It's what I plan to do. But I'm nervous.

Don't be nervous. You have your wits and MB skills about you. Knock 'em dead. LOL!!!

I'll let you know how it turns out. On one hand I'm a bit nervous, but on the other since I WILL BE using MB principles, I am also having FUN.

It willprobably be a while before I get definite results of the whole thing.

SS,
I love the poem. I know that my WH has to miss that. He continues to have C with OW - unsure if he is living there as I am in NC for only a week. I can't imagine this going on for a year without closure but I wouldn't have thought I would consider R with a man who cheated. We just don't know what we will do until faced with the actual situation.

Thanks for the beautiful poem.

Nkay

BTW SS, I've been wanting to ask you for a while now, whta does your wife think of your participating so much in MB? You don't have to answer obviously, but I am curious.

She doesn't know. I've kept it hidden from her all these years.

OK, OK, I was kidding.

I found MB by accident doing a web search. This site came up in the search, and I was interrested, so I begain to read.
It only took a little bit of reading to see that these concepts could help our marriage. I printed out volumes of stuff, bought "HNHN", and "LB, Habits that destroy romantic love". (both by Dr Harley) and we begain our journey to a great marriage. It took about 2 1/2 years to get pretty good, and by now it is wonderful. (4 years plus a little, because I started reading way before I started posting.)

In the early days, I spent way too much time here, but now I am careful, and do it mostly on my lunch hour, and short posts during the day. You may notice I rarely post on weekends - so I can spend time with my own family, and to help others in connection with my church service.

My W supports me in this, because it is something that really helped our marriage. I should mention that neither of us has been involved in an A.

CC, I got to thinking..... I think spanish is your first language. I hope that poem was enjoyable in english. You do so well, that I didn't think of it when I first posted it. Poems are one thing that don't always translate well in someone's mind.

NKay - I hope you find success. Glad you got something from that poem - Edgar A Guest has always been a favorite of mine.

Orchid - a while ago you asked me how I was doing. We are doing really well. Talking about going to the Islands for our 30th anniv - but I don't know if we can do it. IF we do, We may look you up - but then, on Anniv trips she says it's just for the two of us, so maybe not. We'll see.

Also CC, (just posting stuff as it comes to my mind.) We have eight children, but only two still at home. Twins that are 12 years old. I am glad you are re-connecting with Christ. One of the reasons I post is because of a scripture.
Luke 22:32
I feel I am bound to help if I can.

Orchid, how about you?

Ok CC, thanks for listening. Sorry abou the little bit of a thread jack.

There are different kinds of courage. All of us are afraid of something, it's just that it's something different with each of us. I believe you are showing great courage by how you live, and how you react to the pain you have been through. Not everyone does so well. I really do admire that.

SS

Quote

...Orchid - a while ago you asked me how I was doing. We are doing really well. Talking about going to the Islands for our 30th anniv - but I don't know if we can do it. IF we do, We may look you up - but then, on Anniv trips she says it's just for the two of us, so maybe not. We'll see.....

Orchid, how about you?

SS

SS,

I am fine. Working hard and for now trying to stay out of the rain.

We would love to visit with you and your W or even family while here. H played hired tour guide to 2 couples this past week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> So at the very least, we can direct you to where t/g to have some fun. The outer islands IMHO are more fun but Oahu has a lot t/d also. Just a bit more citified on Oahu.... according to my son at least Oahu has Gamestop. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am waiting for lemonman to let us know if he is coming or not. We would love to visit with him also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Aloha,
L.

Quote

BTW SS, I've been wanting to ask you for a while now, whta does your wife think of your participating so much in MB? You don't have to answer obviously, but I am curious.

SS I asked you this because I already KNEW that infidelity wasn't part of your history, and that you had found MB when searching for help for other relationship problems. That is precisely why I was curious.

I'm glad you have found a balance in your life and are able to post so and help so much here on MB. I still don't really understand how you manage to do it!

So please tell your wife that she has a friend down/up here, because she must be one very special person to share her life with you, and I thank her for letting you share your wisdom and your kindness with us. Thank her for me please.

Quote

I think spanish is your first language.

The truth is that I don't have a first language, I am as good as I am bad for both english and spanish. I don't think I can strictly be called bilingual because I have things I can only do in english and others I can only do in spanish. I think in english, but many conversations in my mind are obviously in spanish. I pray in english. Took me a long while to learn the Our Father and Hail Mary in spanish.
I can only study in spanish, which means that I have to translate textbooks to understand them, but for leisure I can only read in english! I get bored trying to read in spanish, I don't even read a whole newspaper article!

So poetry is in english! so is infidelity thanks to MB.

Actually english is a much richer and expressive language. One of my aunts who was a history teacher used to defend the spanish language (I guess it bothered her that we spoke in english among ourselves with my brothers and sister). It was one of those things that I always kept in the back of my mind because I would know many more words to describe something in english than in spanish, or I couldn't find a translation for an english word. So at one period when I had time and internet, I wrote to a language institute and asked them. Turns out that english has DOUBLE the vocabulary of spanish! So I was right and I even printed out the answer and brought it back to my aunt. And now I know why there are some things that you cannot explain in spanish. To start with THERE IS NO WORD FOR AFFAIR!

Quote

One of the reasons I post is because of a scripture.
Luke 22:32
I feel I am bound to help if I can.

Well I'm just starting on my journey of reconnecting so I can't quote scripture yet! But I've alays been one to try to help if I can but here on MB I have felt useless in that sense until now, but I was learning. Didn't want to give the wrong advice because people who come here are in a very very fragile state. I have so admired the way some people can help with just one or two sentences! it all becomes so clear! They "hit the nail on the head"!!!!

It is oly this last week that I have felt that I may be able to help a person or two! so I'm happy that I'm finally starting to "get it" and maybe I can help.

It was also good to hear Dr. Harley. He REALLY does get it! I hope I can hear him again because since they changed the program hours I haven't been able to.

One thing Dr. H said on the show I thought very, very interesting, was that he didn't offer advice unless it was asked for. And he is right about that. It is rarely appreciated when not asked for and can even provoke rejection.

I don't mind threadjacks at all. Actually maybe I'll go to the Island too! I would love to meet Orchid in person!

Quote

I don't mind threadjacks at all. Actually maybe I'll go to the Island too! I would love to meet Orchid in person!

Aloha CC,

U r most certainly welcome to come and visit. Just let us know when.

L.

This is for SS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You told me you wanted to know about my dreams...

Mid morning today I remembered my dream last night:

I met WH and he was nude! and he just explained that that how he was now. Always nude <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Now what does that mean????????

Actualy in my dream I thought it was funny and he was definitely mad!

These have been hectic weeks at work: half of the employees are trying to get me kicked out. I think it has backfired and tomorrow there will be a general meeting with bosses and we'll see the results.

I have also told the bosses that I'm thinking of quitting, mainly because I cannot work.
But I said I will give them my answer after Easter week which is generally a holiday here.

So it has been very very hectic. I'm calm. But I have not only that to think about but also the thread I started here!

Lots to do...

Just a quick update, specially for Mimi

A couple of days ago I was getting home and as I turned the corner I see WH getting out of his car at the door of the house. He was picking dds up for lunch. First I stopped. Then I thought, why not. I'll just go home and let it be what it will be.

As I was drawing up behind his car I got a call on my work phone. While I talked, dd opened the door, WH went and droppedsome thingsoff for them came out again, approached me (still sitting in the car) gave me a kiss on the cheek and left.

Guess that's what it was meant to be. No emotion on my part.

You sound mostly good whenever I run across your posts. I have been doing a major project at work, and have not been on much.

Sorry for not replying to you, will try to read and visit your thread this week.

Hope you laugh often. IT's good for us.

SS

I met WH and he was nude! and he just explained that that how he was now. Always nude <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Now what does that mean????????

I think it means he wasn't properly dressed for social engagements. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I really don't know what it means - I wonder if you are starting to reject him in your heart. If you no longer see him as an acceptable choice.

Actualy in my dream I thought it was funny and he was definitely mad!

What do you think it means?

Also by dreams, I mean day dreams. Do you ever dream of heaven? What do you look forward to in life?

These have been hectic weeks at work: half of the employees are trying to get me kicked out. I think it has backfired and tomorrow there will be a general meeting with bosses and we'll see the results.

And the results?
You can't just say something like that and then not tell us.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I am guessing the ones that want you fired are the ones that don't like change in any form. What else?

That would be on your mind a lot, sorry you have to cope with it. May you holiday be a good one.

SS

let's see....

Quote

I wonder if you are starting to reject him in your heart.

I think you may be right. I hate the kind of person he has become. And there is nothing to endear me to him in 2 years, so that may be it.

Quote

And the results?

well last week was a holiday (the whole week) and today is also a holiday so we will see the results tomorrow.

What happened was that they got together and decided that they have been suffering from mental and psychological abuse from me for one year and they want me out. I think it was a phenomena of mass histeria. Let me tell you there is not one written and signed statement to document this abuse from any of the 30 + in the whole year.

Anyway, big bosses decided on the following day, when they got this petition, decided that they would relieve me of my duties... by promoting me to deputy director! But first they have to be told that someone has to take over and maintain the standards that have been achieved this last year and they will be told I will be around while they look for another job for me. In the meantime the order is to transfer or fire each and everyone of the employees one by one as they go back to their usual behaviours: coming late, being absent, crocheting or knitting at work etc.

So we'll see what happens. It is sad because it will be cruel. But they asked for it.

So your punishment for "poor performance" is to be promoted. That's not bad. I thought that only happened in my company. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

the whole point is that my performance has been great! and that is why I'm being defended by the bosses. What's not usual is that they should care about good WORK performance, but in this case it seems to matter. Nevertheless, I hope to go back to my job, when the whole thing gets played out.

The trend in American companies is to promote people to their highest level of incompetence. That is generally true for middle management positions. It is only the completely clueless who can achieve senior management. I am glad it works differently in your country.

Although singing and dancing all day - I got a different impression as to your vocation. I didn't realize you worked for the national ballet company. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi CC, I got your email. I'll try to get it out tomorrow, and I'll let you know once it's sent. Have a great night, day, whatever it is for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks a lot Neak. It means a lot to me. There isn't much you can do for an 87 yr old person. She had 5 children, two sons died of cancer and her 2 daughters and remaining son live abroad. Her grandchildren don't seem to like to speak english much.

She paints watercolors and is now dedicated to painting scenes from the Bible to be used in Church.

I'll let her read the book first.

Thank you

T, that's called Peter's principle and I'm very wary of accepting positions I can't be competent at. I hate not being able to do my job.

My "temporary" position is deputy director of the department of epidemiology at the ministry of health but I made it clear I would like to go back to my old position, as director of the surveillance unit.

But I have to have patience and let this "play" playit self out or however it's said. Get what I mean?

T I already told you once!

Have to go to work. Actually my schedule is determined by DD, because I take her to school. Otherwise I can go to work whenever I want.

Today I will try to leave early, take the dog for a walk by the sea, and then come home to cook!

No you said you didn't want to tell me but that was my guess. Just ask ToddAC if you don't believe me. Timezone (and size) gave it away.

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My "temporary" position is deputy director

You really have my sympathy. Not.

The Peter Principle. I read that book many years ago. A person is promoted until they get to the level of their incompetence. And BTW trachy, they are promoted to their first level of incompetence and then they are found out. No more promotions after that. Honestly, though I have worked for some people who were exempt from this rule...

Hey tracheotomy, I don't know nothing about no time zones and what country cc is in. BTW, I would never have asked like you did...

CC,
When you first said they wanted you fired, I thought it must be becasue of how they are working, not how you are working.

I didn't realize what your job title was though, it explains why you weren't more worried. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You seem more sure of your self these days. I am glad.
I skimmed your thread about church recognized divorce.

Perhaps this scripture will help you find your answers. It has helped me many, many times.

James 1: 5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Prayer is a wonderful thing, I highly recommend it. Don't be afraid to just talk to God - as you would a good friend. He cares enough to answer, though he uses his own ways to do it.

SS

T, I had told you once but I edited maybe before you saw it.

Todd, I'm getting used to T. I don't get offended. How are you doing? I've kept up with your thread although I don't think I ever read your real diagnosis. Since I'm not going thru such a good period I don't post much. I just like to keep T on his toes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

SS. That's lovely. I'll print it and keep it with me. I always talk to God. I always have. But at some point you need some outside validation. If you read my religious divorce thread I really didn't get an answer. Nobody said that it was possible but most said that they thought it didn't exist. Most refer to a legal divorce. For me it's not the same thing.

A legal marriage is a contract. WH has obviously broken it but the law doesn't do anything about it. The only useful thing about a legal marriage is the division of assets, including the children. By this I mean that as long as a man gets legally married he considers the children his. Nowadays that might sound strange but at some point in man's history, children were valuable.
Women don't need that because they give birth to the children.

Anyway, it's not about the legal aspects. It's about the religious aspect. And to me it sounds strange that if there is a "marriage" there has to be something about undoing it. But nothing of that came up. The scriptures seem to speck only of the unfaithful. Not what the betrayed is supposed to do.

So after all I read on my thread which was very interesting I decided I do have to ask the "Church" but I also know that there are all kinds of priests. My sister and my SIL did not get married by the Church, and so they had to look for a priest willing to baptize their children. it wasn't hard.They found one.

I could probably find some priest willing to declare me unmarried. But God has pointed me to the priest I have spoken to a couple of times. So I have asked him and will see what he says. We will probably speak this week.

For the moment I will accept whatever he says. although whatever he says will come into effect after october.

I just need someone who shares my religious beliefs to give me a hand because I am not strong enough at this point. I also need some outside spiritual support.

My family including my daughters want me to divorce WH (legally). Nobody understands plan B, my reluctance to divorce etc.
I hope the priest will give me some help.

And then there is the problem of letting WH know. I cannot make a decision and not tell him.

Unfortunately I very much doubt the priest will to speak to him which is what is what the Bible says he should do. And I would like him to, but I don't want to pressure him into doing it. If he does offer to speak to him I will accept, of course.

We'll see. I have faith in God. The first thought that came to my mind when I confirmed the affair was that the Lord probably had other plans for me and was relieving me of this difficult marriage. But so far it hasn't really turned out that way. I'm still hooked on the marriage in spite of nearly a year and a half of plan B, ADs, Church, .

Going out ith the dog. See you guys later

Oh, about the job. The problem is I work and they don't. so they accuse me of psycological abuse and want me removed. The solution was to remove me as head of the department but with a promotion. Today I heard that they are complaining that I'm still in the same building! and they want me out of the building. See, they can't chat in peace if I walk in at 8! and everytime I leave my office I see they aren't working so that bothers them.

It's a really crazy situation. Typical of 3rd world countries!

At this moment the bosses are meeting with the person who has leaded all this to see if she replaces me.

I guess we'll know something by tomorrow.

Oh, about the job. The problem is I work and they don't. so they accuse me of psycological abuse and want me removed.

I can see why they would accuse you of that - they can't very well say "She expects us to actually work, and I don't want to do that." It made me laugh to read what you said.

The solution was to remove me as head of the department but with a promotion. Today I heard that they are complaining that I'm still in the same building! and they want me out of the building. See, they can't chat in peace if I walk in at 8! and everytime I leave my office I see they aren't working so that bothers them.

Can you imagine acting like this, and then expecting to go to Heaven?

When I think of Heaven, one of the things I think of is that there will be no one there that won't do their share plus a little. Don't you look foreward to that?

It's a really crazy situation. Typical of 3rd world countries!

I am personally familiar with it, Having visited before. (Not your country, but another similar one.) It has always amazed me.

At this moment the bosses are meeting with the person who has leaded all this to see if she replaces me.
If she is leading the no work people, she should be fired.
And, she should be told exactly why.
You are more calm than I am about it. I suspect you have been exposed to it more than I have.

I guess we'll know something by tomorrow.

Be sure to let us know.

From your other thread -
I always talk to God. I always have. But at some point you need some outside validation.

At one point Jesus asked his disciples who they thought He was. He didn't mean "what's my name" but he was asking "Do you really believe I am who claim to be?" I believe Peter's answer, and the Lords reply to him really apply to your situation.
This is from Matthew chapter 16
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the aChrist, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

We should always seek help, input, and do all that we can to find logical answers. When you think you have found the answer, the wittness can (and should) come from God that you are doing his will.

How many people were personal wittnesses to the miracles Jesus preformed, but didn't accept his message? In the end, a spiritial wittness is the best way to know.

I commend you for wanting an answer. It is very important that you are searching this out.

SS

Thanks SS.

I feel it is the right thing to do, and I'm trying to be patient and taking my time about the important decisions.

One of the most important lessons I have learned on MB and onthe very first day was ACT, DON'T REACT.

d day, I was ready to get a divorce. I found MB, did plan A, I'm now in plan B. If I had gotten a divorce I would probably be regretting it now and emotionally in a worse place.

I now believe in plans, sticking to them, having deadlines.

About the job, the worse that can happen is that I go back to my old position and lose 3/4 of the salary but would only work 4 hours. In the meantime because I have not abused them but on the contrary tried to help them get a little self esteem by teaching them the things they need to know, I am not backing down.

Let me give you a few examples: they use Excel as a word processor. They add with a calculator, because they don't know how to do it in excel.

They had never heard of database and kept the data on paper, and counted by listing and counting!

This was in march 2005!

Anyway, the big bosses are supporting me because they know that THEIR job depends on how this works out. At this point it is quite complicated and really not about me.

Apparently I will remain as "deputy" for the moment. Tomorrow I'll know more.

SS,

last year I bought "practical Praying" by John Edward. It's really a very very sweet book. In december I bought a rosary at the statue of Christ in Rio de Janeiro (wonderful experience). And now I pray the Rosary in a practical way nearly every night.

I've just lent the book to my 87 yr old friend.

There are people who go to church because they realize it's good for them, and there are those who go because it makes them look good.

I would guess you go for the former reason, not the latter.
It's just a guess though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Your 87 year old friend probably counts you among her blessings.

Tell me about your friends - have you good friends (close friends?) who have supported you in this?

Or do you feel mostly alone these days?

Is it OK to ask?
I just realized this is one of those questions that if the answer is "NO" there is not a really good way to say it.

But then, I think you are honest, and would say what you think.

SS

It's OK to ask, anything. I'll answer as best I can.

I don't feel I have many friends, but that's just a feeling. WH wasn't the kind to socialize so we didn't do much sociaizing. We were also very busy, or maybe that was the excuse.

Anyway I have one friend who helps me alot. But she's busy too. I'm just not the kind of person who has many friends because I like to spend a lotof time alone. I'm also a little isolated because of my job, because I was very busy most of mylife, but I know a ton of people and have received support from the most unlikely people!

My 87 yr old friend is actually a NEW friend, and mainly I feel sorry for her because she seems to be quite lonely. I just called her and she said she would go to Church tomorrow and would I pick her up if it rained.
Of course I will.

My mother is 82, and her sisters are 84, 80 and 77 and they all have very busy lives!

Does that answer your question?

My daughters are very different. They are very sociable and have tons of friends. When they were small I used to take them to the birthday parties of my friends kids. Obviously they didn't know the kids at the party because they all went to the brithday child's school. But the thing they always talked about was how they had "made a new friend", because they usually did!

Now thay have several different groups of friends so that when one isn't available, another is sure to be! Drives me crazy that they always have someone to go out with! But since it's not a bad thing, I just have to get used to it.

It's OK to ask, anything. I'll answer as best I can.
Thank you, it helps to know someone better before asking what many consider to be personal questions.

I don't feel I have many friends, but that's just a feeling. WH wasn't the kind to socialize so we didn't do much sociaizing. We were also very busy, or maybe that was the excuse.

So, you feel family, and other things were enough? Or he felt that way?

Anyway I have one friend who helps me alot. But she's busy too. I'm just not the kind of person who has many friends because I like to spend a lot of time alone.

Does that mean you are more comfortable reading and sitting than going to events, and socializing?
Tell me a little about yourself - I desire backgrond information.

I am glad for your one friend. I would guess you sometimes feel "My friend has her own life, she is busy, I would be imposing on her............ ??
So sometimes when you would talk to her, you don't ??

I'm also a little isolated because of my job, because I was very busy most of my life, but I know a ton of people and have received support from the most unlikely people!

Sounds like work was really intense some of those years. Like internship? Also raising your daughters takes a lot of time - or did when they were younger.

My 87 yr old friend is actually a NEW friend, and mainly I feel sorry for her because she seems to be quite lonely. I just called her and she said she would go to Church tomorrow and would I pick her up if it rained.
Of course I will.

I am so glad she has a friend like you, and I suspect she is also. How kind of you. Of course, I would have expected it from what I know about you. Has she seen the book yet? How about you, how do you like the book? (Talk about changing the subject <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

My mother is 82, and her sisters are 84, 80 and 77 and they all have very busy lives!

Does your mother live close to you? She must still be in good health.

Does that answer your question?

Yes, and thank you for talking with me.

My daughters are very different. They are very sociable and have tons of friends. When they were small I used to take them to the birthday parties of my friends kids. Obviously they didn't know the kids at the party because they all went to the brithday child's school. But the thing they always talked about was how they had "made a new friend", because they usually did!

I think most children are naturally friendly unless they have had a bad experiance. When you were a child, were you this way also? Or much the same as you are now?

Now thay have several different groups of friends so that when one isn't available, another is sure to be! Drives me crazy that they always have someone to go out with! But since it's not a bad thing, I just have to get used to it.

So does part of the "crazy" have to do with them not being around when you need them? Our daugthers were like that as teens.

The oldest two are married now (one 23, one 21) and they find that coming to visit us us very high on their list of things to do. I would almost bet your daughters will be the same.

You sound a lot better than last fall. It's hard to know all the factors, but whatever the reason, you seem to be doing fine now. Either you changed your focus, or you fake it really well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I suppose we shouldn't forget your friends on MB - you provide good support when you have the time to write to others. Perhaps better support than you know.

Keep up the good work.

SS

CC, just wanted to drop in and say hi. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Neak! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I looooooooooooove the book. I'm nearly finished but am keeping the last few pages for tonight when I go to bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow I'll take it to my friend. When she gives it back I've already told my dds that they have to read it.

When is your next book coming out????

You are really a fabulous writer! God has blessed you with that gift. I feel sorry that I can't hear you sing! But who knows, maybe some day I will ...

SS,

I've always felt awkward and out of place but then most of my life I have been "different". As a child I was a foreigner... I went to school in USA and England and although my family life was very good it wasn't the same as my school buddies'

The when I came back to this country I was a teenager with a "different" background. Don't forget I've always thought in english, I read in english, etc,

so yes, I'm a lonely sort of person, but thenthat is my name! Loneliness, right Neak? It actually is.

I don't NEED to be sociable although I am when I am "in public" but as I said before, I don't feel the need to go out, or be with others. I need a lot of alone time.

WH just doesn't like people. he's always suspicious of them.
He doesn't HAVE any friends, nor does he need them.

My daughters are just naturally friendly. Thank God. They have all sorts of friends, different sizes shapes ages etc. They manage very well with all of them. What drives me crazy is that they go out most nights...

I don't NEED them, I want to spare them the worst of this. I hope they don't get the impression that it's "normal" or even OK to be unfaithful, in spite of WH's family pretending it's OK. I want them to know that good marriages are possible and they should work towards having one. In a couple of years I'll try to get them to read Dr. Harley's books. At this moment they are not interested, luckily. They are horrified that their cousin is getting married at 23!

Hopefully we will all be going to the wedding in Richmond, Virginia in late august.

About me sounding better, I guess I am. I still have down days, I still haven't solved my problems, but I look forward more than I do to the past. But I'm still projectless...

According to a friend who reads my cards I will solve everything this year. Who knows. I need a purpose I can focus on. As you know I've sudenly had to change positions at work, so I'm a little lost in that area again.

Anyway, I'm focusing on personal recovery, and I need my MB friends for that. I may not write much, but I read a lot.

I've been wondering about Caren lately, she has disappeared.

Went to the psychiatrist today and we decided together that I would start reducing the ads.

The priest hasn't given me an appointment yet. He's busy.
But I'll see him tomorrow and he'll be reminded I'm waiting for him to answer me.

WH is leaving next week on a trip and will be spending his 50th birthday probably in europe.

So, lots of things going on...for me. I'll let you know...

Oh, thank you, CC!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The next one is still under submission, and I should hear back ANY TIME NOW as to whether they're accepting it. If they do, it will either come out this next February or the one after, and if they don't accept it I will self-publish. So I'll let you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll vouch for your 'lonely' name. Is that what you go by, rather than your first name? I wasn't sure, so I played it safe.

many girl names in spanish are preceded by maria, so one usually goes by the second one.

what's the second book about?

Oh. I never knew that.

The second one tells the rest of the story from Malchus. The two stories are very much intertwined, but the second one deals with the disciple Peter (and what the angels were doing, too.)

I'm looking forward to it!

Smooches! Such eagerness is like music to any author's ears! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I guess I'm going to go and vacuum some more. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

An update about plan B.

Yesterday I went for my monthly visit to the psychiatrist. Mostly we talked about my job problem but he asked about WH and I told him about the "meeting". He was very surprised that WH had approached me.

Then last night I got an e mail. I had written WH about some oney of my mother's that she has asked for a couple of days agoand he hadn't answered so I sent a one sentence e mail saying I would appreciate an answer.

He wrote that he was sorry he hadn't answered but that he had just seen both e mails since he was "too busy" whether I believed it or not and explained that he would obviously go get the money for my mother and also send the money to pay my brother because "I should know" that he always paid his debts.

I couldn't help myself. I wrote back saying that of course I didn't know because I had no idea who he was, that he was not the person I had known as a husband. How could I know him?

Anyway, maybe if he's not too busy he'll read it some time today.

SS,

since you might look at this thread I want to post the words of this Shania Twain song that I hope decribes me at this stage.

Still Under The Weather

My first lesson in losing a love was you
Learning to live with your memory was lesson number two
And I can't lie, baby
I still cry sometimes
But I've come a long way
Towards gettin' you out of my mind

Chorus:
I'm still under the weather
But I'm over the storm
I still miss the shelter
Of your loving arms
But what I thought would kill me
Has just made me strong
I'm still under the weather
But I'm over the storm

Sometimes your memory still gets the best of me
But that lonely ache in my heart
Ain't as bad as it used to be
And sometimes the way that I'm feelin'
Inside doesn't show
But I know
I'll get over you, I've just got a long way to go

(Repeat Chorus)

I'm still under the weather
But I'm over the storm

I love it.

Now I have an office to myself I've recorded a whole lot of my favorite songs and listen to music the 6 hours I'm at work. It is on the one hand a joy, but on the other if affects me a lot, so I'm not sure it's a good thing.

A couple of days ago we were having lunch with the girls and they asked about an antique writing desk that is on the floor and what was in it. I said I didn't know because I haven't opened it for ages but since we're looking for a place to hide money and this desk has a secret drawer we opened it.

Among the many papers, letters, notes and pictures which have been there forever we found 2 letters WH wrote to me in 1985. I didn't even remember they existed. What a shock!

Anyway, now I have a way to start crying when I need to!
He's going away for a couple of weeks tomorrow and will spend his 50th birthday somewhere in teh world probably with OW. I'll remember him that day.

It's interresting the songs people associate themselves with. (This is just a statement of interrest, not any kind of judgement.)

I can understand how you identify with this one, it does seem to tell it like it is.

Now I have an office to myself I've recorded a whole lot of my favorite songs and listen to music the 6 hours I'm at work. It is on the one hand a joy, but on the other if affects me a lot, so I'm not sure it's a good thing.

You can change what you listen to. There are things we like, that remind us of things that hurt. But I am sure there are also uplifting and beautiful songs that will inspire in ways that won't affect you so deeply.
What do you like to listen to?
Or what type of music?

That's not really a fair question, because I suspect like many of us, you listen to different things at different times depending on what you are doing, and where you are. Just laugh and do the best you can with it.

Speaking of the desk -
Among the many papers, letters, notes and pictures which have been there forever we found 2 letters WH wrote to me in 1985. I didn't even remember they existed. What a shock!

Anyway, now I have a way to start crying when I need to!

So you are still a long ways from being over him. This is where I can't provide much help. I have not been through this, and I find myself hopeing I never experiance it. (Even in death......... I hope we go close together.)

From reading on MB for about 4 years, it seems like it does take the two years to get over it. You still have some ways to go, too bad it can be done by flipping a switch. Though, if that were the case, it wouldn't mean as much as it does to all of us. No, I think it has to be this way. How about you?

So you will remember him on his B day. How do you feel on your own Birthday?

Feelings are so important. The world would be a dreary place without them. It's necessarry to endure the bad, so that when the good comes, we have a way to judge. My belief is that there will be much good yet in your future, but as your other thread teaches, you may as well find things to enjoy daily even now. Is it working for you?

Often I wish to go back and comment on other things you have said, but that I have had no time to comment on yet.

Of necessity other things sometimes prevent that - but you would not be ignored on purpose.

Thinking of our faults, and failings -
This other thread of yours is full of wisdom. I hope it is having an effect on the way you see yourself. It is true that we make mistakes, but we are never responseible for the actions of others, they make their own choices. As I have read the words, I have been hoping that you take the stated truths into your heart. Often it is, that people are better than they believe. I think this is true for you.

We all have a long way to go, I hope you have joy in the journey.

SS

Iliked that song since I first heard. It just seems very appropriate now.

I don't think I'll ever "get over him". Somehow we were connected in a strange way. The letters only confirmed that, which is what made me cry. You see, in all the years I've jnown him WH has said very little about his feelings. And I didn't insist. It might sound strange, but since he nver did, from the very very beginning, I had to take him like that or nothing!

When I met him he had just ended a 7 year relationship. He never told me why he ended it or what it was like or anything. I would ask, and he would just say "I don't know" or "I don't want to talk about it". A few months later he got together with that girlfriend and forgot to tell me!

Even after we had been together for 2 years and eventually married he never wanted to talk about her, his relationship with her or anything that had to do with feelings.

So converstaion isn't one of his strong points, and yet I feel connected to him even now. And I have done an excellent plan B not seeing him for practically 16 months! So I don't know if I will ever be indifferent to him. On the other hand I didn't feel much when I saw him a couple of weeks ago.

On the other hand I can truthfully tell you that if he turned up at the door and asked me if he could come back I would say no, thank you. I would be willing to start again, dating and getting to know each other, but I would not let him into my life just like that.

About the other thread, I also find it very interesting. I started posting it because I write it for my sister and send it to her by e mail everyday. I hope to brighten her up. I'm an optimistic person, she's usually the opposite, so I hope to give her positive things to think about. And I'm enjoying them too. I only read the one that is for that day.

I also enjoy going to Church everyday, or nearly everyday and I find something interesting to think about there too. I usually feel calmer after Mass.

I'm still in a lot of turmoil, but at least I think I am starting to enjoy lots of new things and people. I still miss having a life plan. I haven't anything to focus on for the future. I've just lost my dream job and am in an uncomfortable position. I can't defend myself against the accusations because they were informal and I can't complain because I have been "promoted", have a les stressful job, same salary...

Actually patience is what I'm working on at this moment. I have to have patience with my job, patience wating for the priest to have time to talk to me, patience for the 2 years to be over as Dr. Harley told me, or for WH to divorce me...

I have to be patient. I never have been, so this is a new experience. So far, I am in awe of how patient I am being!

About music... most of it is about love. Julio Iglesias has one song about food, and I hate it.
I wonder how many songs are written about dogs or sports or cars?

cc - Don't feel too bad about the job. I know it bothers you, but that is the way things go.

At my work, we got a new supervisor who is a very hard worker. The lazy people started complaining about him, and organized a meeting behind his back. At the meeting, I was the only one that stuck up for him.

He works hard all day long, and has done wonderful things for the hospital, and only expects the others to do the same.

I did speak to the director before the meeting and let him know the real story. My boss is still there. Some of the lazy people have left, so it is getting better. But it is very draining because this has been going on for almost a year.

Thanks Believer. That's what happened to me. I worked twice as hard as everyone else. But I really enjoyed it! There was so much to do!

Now I'm a spectator. Again.

I have to be patient and hope that some interesting job will come along. At the moment I'm doing some planning which may result in other interesting things.

I can't see myself working with these people ever again. So I don't think I could ever go back to that job unless they were mostly all replaced. And that is not very probable.

I'm not that affected by this job loss, at least not yet. I feel that lots more things have to happen...

But all these things add up... and rejection in every aspect of my life sometimes gets to me...

Yep, one more rejection. But that is to be expected, especially if you are a high achiever.

I wasn't used to so much rejection!!!!

Shouldn't get used to it either.

Anyway, I'm off to sleep. Dreams are great!

Hi CC,
Hope you are well.

I'm still in a lot of turmoil, but at least I think I am starting to enjoy lots of new things and people.

I see this as good.
When you are alone in the evenings, and you think, what do you think about?

I still miss having a life plan. I haven't anything to focus on for the future.

Are you too afraid to think about it yet?

Once your life plan was to grow old with H, and now it's all changed so you haven't made a new one?

I've just lost my dream job and am in an uncomfortable position. I can't defend myself against the accusations because they were informal and I can't complain because I have been "promoted", have a les stressful job, same salary...

You don't enjoy this job as much as the other one?

Actually patience is what I'm working on at this moment. I have to have patience with my job, patience wating for the priest to have time to talk to me, patience for the 2 years to be over as Dr. Harley told me, or for WH to divorce me...

I have to be patient. I never have been, so this is a new experience. So far, I am in awe of how patient I am being!

When I read you never had been patient, I was shocked.

It doesn't go with you not pressing H to talk, or the fact that he never has been vocal about his feelings. I see that (you letting him alone) as being very patient. I suspect you longed to talk sometimes.

About music... most of it is about love. Julio Iglesias has one song about food, and I hate it.
I wonder how many songs are written about dogs or sports or cars?

Love is something most of us find important. I suspect song writers know that - and they have feelings too.

Hmmm, dogs, sports, and cars.

It would be easier on your heart, but you proablby wouldn't listen to them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Life plans ....... start with life dreams.

Discussion?

SS

SS,

I don't think you'll like the answers to your questions.

1. I don't have a job. I only have a position. I don't have anything to do and whatever I do do, nobody cares about. My name and person has meen smeared and I have no way to defend them because I haven't been accused of anything. I'm supposed to trust a guy I've barely spoken to twice because a middleman (my boss) says he appreciates me.

2. I don't have a lifelan. I don't think ahead. I ahve nothing to base my plan on: no money, no job and basically no dependants. My mother is 82 and not in great health so she may go any moment. My daughters are basically independant, they don't NEED me now.

3. I don't have any purpose in life, and I can't find any. I'm just surviving. I'm patient, hoping that some day I'll find a new one.

3. I think about many things, I always do. But none seems very important. I don't seem to care.

4. I guess outwardly it's not very obvious, so no one pays much attention to me.

5. I'm not afraid. I do get frightened by things, but that only lasts a few hours at the most.

6. I don't want to cause anyone harm, or sorrow. If it weren't for dds, and my mother I would just quit my job and leave. And start a new life doing whatever. Anything.

SS,

I don't think you'll like the answers to your questions.

It's not a like/not like situation.

It's finding a baseline. A starting point.
God doesn't intend for you to just sit, and wait out your life.
I don't think you want to do that either.

So - a starting point.

1. I don't have a job. I only have a position. I don't have anything to do and whatever I do do, nobody cares about. My name and person has meen smeared and I have no way to defend them because I haven't been accused of anything. I'm supposed to trust a guy I've barely spoken to twice because a middleman (my boss) says he appreciates me.

What do you see as your options now?
I realize you mentioned leaving, and doing something else.
Anything besides that?
Of those options, are there any that appeal to you?

- To be continued -
I have to leave work now.
Same time, same station.

CC, if it seems hopeless, remember it never is.
Tomorrow is another day - lets HELP you find joy in the journey.

SS

cc - It will get better. I promise you that. Before D-day, I was a mom to 8 and a wife. That was my whole life.

I'm now a completely different person now. Even my family and friends comment on it.

It took 3 years, but I'm happier than ever now.

Don't worry.

I don't care.

I can't leave. I don't have any money. if it were only me it wouldn't matter. There are no possibiliti of any job in ther places. I don;t think I have any options better than this.

Thanks Believer. I know it can take 3 years, 5, 10 or forever. It may get better or it may get worse.

I'm glad you are happy. I think your recovery is great. Enjoy your beans!

Quote

I don't care.

Let me see...I remember reading something about that...what was it again?...Oh I'll have to go look darn it.

T,

I am absolutely entitled to not care.

I have been dealing with indifference for 4 years now. I have WH who never even admitted he's having an affair. He just f***** his secretray, spent money on her, lived with her on weekends, who knows what else because he never said, much "there was nothing to talk about"....

He's been LIVING with her for a year and a half and has just gone off to spend some "quality time" in Greece...

Why should I care about myself?

I never had much survival instinct to start with. I have even less now.

CC,
I'm glad you are doing better than when you wrote most of the above posts.

Even if you didn't care, the rest of us would.

Do you have any idea where these bad feelings came from?

I admit I was worried.

SS

I've always had those bad feelings about myself. Now I've realized they are wrong.

Actually it's even worse thana that SS. I realize it's a sin to not appreciate and love myself. It's WRONG.

So I'm working on that.

I've always had those bad feelings about myself. Now I've realized they are wrong.

Feelings are feelings. We do well to consider where they come from, seek to undestand them, then mold them to what we want to be. If we dont' know what we want to be - well then, there you are.

Actually it's even worse thana that SS. I realize it's a sin to not appreciate and love myself. It's WRONG.

If we are to love our neighbor as ourselves - we have to love our self first. That commendment pre-supposes self love. To love ourself, we have to know ourself, be true to ourself, , and be following a course that we know is the right one.

So I'm working on that.

I heard a story once about an elderly lady. She was visited by a young man, and he asked her why she seemed so happy - when many things had gone wrong with her life.

The lady thought for a few moments, then she said "Our life is like a bag - and when we are young, we fill it up with the things we do every day. The people we help, the things we learn....... and so on. When we are old, we take out of the bag, and we are happy then, if we filled it with good when we were young."

CC, I want you to have a happy life. It might just begin with your concept of yourself. You are so much more than you sometimes give you credit for.
You are a daughter of God, and as someone once said "he don't make no junk." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You know that God loves us all, and will accept and help ALL who come to him for help.

Why would you think less of yourself than God thinks of you?

Please think about that one - in a historical context - your own personal history.

I will be interrested in hearing what you think about it.

Remember, feelings are feelings. They often don't relate to reality - but sometimes reflect things about ourselves that we don't understand very well. I really am interrested in hearing your thoughts on this.

SS

SS, give me some time to answer. I have to rethink a whole lot of things.

You can have as much time as you want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Remember we write because we care.

You are worth it, do you realize that?

SS

One more thing -

I've already judged you. I find you to be a wonderful person.

You know your faults, so you may tend to be a little hard on yourself.

True, we need to change, and grow, and improve, but you are doing that. You know this is true. You have come so far.

Don't be afraid to say what you think, we are all on this journey together, we all need help, all have room for improvement. As I said, my judgement has already been made, and you came out well. I don't think you would be able to change it if you tried, I see much to like.

It is good that we help each other along the road to perfection - every chance we get.

Smile CC, it realy is good for us.

SS

Are you back from your trip?

It went well?

You had fun?

SS

Consider it done.

46 is young - I can still remember........ it was 4 years ago for me. Not much change from year to year these days.

SS

SS,

I am generally happier. I'm finally seeing a futur although the picture is not exactly clear yet.

I don't envision recovery, I can't imagine WH repenting, he's too stubborn and so used to being miserable or just comfortable that I'm not sure he even knows that one can be happy, ectasic, joyful, etc. And if he never bothered to work on the marriage before, in spite of my having explicitly talked to him about it a few times in the past(conflict avoidance didn't let me insist) and after all he's done lately (he's in europe with OW, a trip we always dreamed of doing but we either did not have the money, or lately he didn't "have time")I don't think he will repent. And if he doesn't repent, there's no possible marriage.

After my chat with the priest and having thought about things, I've decided that to be true to myself I will have to remain married, because the catholic Church does not accept dissolution. So I'm planning my life with that in mind.

On the whole I am happier. Uncertainty is very bad for the soul. I'm making decisions for myself.

The trip was a 1 day thing and it rained but I had a good time, and found a funny story which had me laughing to myself for quite a while. I plan to take many of these short trips now for work.

By the way SS,I'm 48 now!

Oh, I'm 58, and happier than I've ever been. Small trips sound fun - especially where you live.

Believer, you can do the same - small trips to Mexico, Canada, and Hawaii. Only stay for a month or so....... so you don't get bored.

CC,
Sorry about the mix up - 48 is the same age as my W.
She seems young to me - but then you probably feel young if you dance in your office, and play music loud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I see you are trying to make the best of the job situation. I really hope you can make it work for you. The attitude will help anyway.

Believer,
I see your life is still exciting, and you havn't lost your sense of humor. Good for you.

SS

The furthest you can go inside the country is about 6 hours by car, so I could visit the whole country taking day trips!

This time I stayed the night because I wanted to walk around and get something or see something that would distinguish this city from all the others! What I found (walked half the town in the morning)was a monument to Christopher Columbus with a globe on top where the town people in 1892 put in a lead box with notes, memories of the moment, coins etc. It was opened in 1992 and everything had survived! Another box with stuff from 1992 was put in for the people who will be around in 2092. Cute story and the 1892 box and stuff was on display in the museum on the same square.
On the same square there is an old church (the main church) which burned in 1997, nearly completely. Only the facade remained. So modern architect redid the inside in brick, very modern and with special natural lighting effects etc. Seems that a local artist was chosen to carve a cross for the new church and he made one with Christ NOT crucified, but with his hands to his side. This caused a whole lot of controversy with the people and the Church and they finally had it taken down and a regular Cross put up. The museum guide told me all this. According to her the priest who was in the Church was from Colombia and therefore not as .... as us ??? she meant modern or something I guess, and he was the person who mainly didn't like the modern cross. Now picture me at 10 am in this museum with about 4 rooms and only me, the guide and the caretaker in the museum.... So I asked her for a picture of the cross and she looked to see if by chance there was one around but couldn't find one where it was clearly visible.
So I said, I wonder if they have a picture in the library which is right next to the Church?

And she says very emphatically: "oh no! they won't have anything!"
So I said:"what a pity the Church is closed"
she looking at theChurch through the trees: "yes, well I don't know what time the priest gets up...."

That's what made my day! That she should think that the Church opened when the priest got up! and it was 10:00 in the morning!

Anyway it turned out that the Church was open,I got to see the inside, but no sign of the problem Cross...

That's what made my day! That she should think that the Church opened when the priest got up! and it was 10:00 in the morning!

I feel that way some mornings. That made me laugh.

It's fun to travel, shall I send you information aobut traveling in our part of the world so you can dream?

SS

I've seen the pictures SS, it's beautiful.... No wonder you are happy and peaceful. Nature does that for you.
But do send some pictures.

T&L I think the t-shirts would be a great idea! Specially since they don't speak english!
They might even wear them!

That sounded so neat about the box. I feel like going out and digging holes now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi cc...

Sounds like your travels were wonderful.

I've come to really enjoy those little trips by myself. At first I didn't like doing that because I was so accustomed to sharing trips / memories with xW, but now I've gotten to the point that I can enjoy moments like this by myself.

Keep up the good work.

Georgia

SS, you asked for an upate so here goes.

It's a good quiet but some "things" are going on. Nothing spectacular like Georgia's life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but small signs of who knows what result!

A few background notes: during may WH traveled with OW to Europe, for a three day work conference but a 21 trip all over Europe. We don't have many details because it was "secret" of course! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I've been organizing the trip to my niece's wedding and my travel agent called me and told me she had got some good prices (1200 dollars) but that we had to pay by last friday. So I sent the message to WH who had said he would pay the girls' tickets.

I sugested we could use some savings that WE have.

He sent me a very angry e mail saying that no way were we going to use that money because this was and unnecessary trip only for fun and that he did not have the money at this moment and it was unrealistic to expect him to have it just like that. He could pay about a third now and the rest in a month or so.

I took my time and wrote him back sayng that I would never touch any of the money (not saying "our" "your" etc) without his agreement since he was still the head of the family (thank you Orchid), that we were trying to live the way HE determined we should with what he culd give us but of there was any problem to please let me know.
I told him I disagreed about the trip being for fun and unnecessary since family was very important for us and my sister and neice have no family in USA so it was very important for all of us to be there.

Since he had signed off very coldly, I asked him what I deserved to be treated like a stranger, when after all I was still his wife and we were still his family. I reminded him that legally he could change that, if that was what he wanted.

Essentially that was my answer.

The following morning he brought over a check for 1/3 of the cost of the tickets (I paid them anyway and hope he will send me the rest in a month).

The following day he was seeing the girls so I sent him 30 dollars to cover some books I had bought with his credit card, a fact I had mentioned in my answer.

The result was that he sent the 30 dollars back with the message that I should use them for our trip, he was also greatly concerned about my car which was in the mechanics and sent the message that he would pay for it.

I thanked him thru e mail and he immediatly answered with a request for me to speak to DD3 about some plans he has which he doesn't agree with and asking if my car had been repaired and how much it cost!

This is the first time he has tried to discuss a problem with DDs in all this time!

This was all these last few days. Today dd3 who is still extremely angry with him, was going to the seaside for a few days and WH came to pick her up at 7 am to have breakfast alone with her before she leaves and give her money etc.

So something is happening... let's hope it's a good thing.

Lately I'm VERY CALM about everything. I have no anxiety at all, no nervousness. I don't expect anything.

At work things may be changing too, although nobody says anything to me. I'm still in the same position... but something will happen soon. I have a work trip coming up and when my ex employees realize that I am going (if I go) it will produce great anger. If I don't go I will know what the authorities are up to. Either way I'm in the position of "God's will be done", I'm not interfering.

I'm busy and happy and all those other things happening around me I don't try to find out about and let them work themselves out. I'm in plan B after all....protecting myself.

On the other hand I visited my 104 yr old friend for her birthday. This is a friend of WH's family but they are very kind and friendly and supportive of me.

I continue my relationship with my 87 yr old friend and this week I took one of WH's aunts to visit another of his aunts... I hadn't seen them for a while.

So things seem to be settling into a "new routine", finally.

SS, you asked for an upate so here goes.

Yes, thanks. I wondered how you were.

It's a good quiet but some "things" are going on. Nothing spectacular like Georgia's life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but small signs of who knows what result!

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
From reading, it looks like you are making good personal progress. I wish he was. Perhaps he is, but it's hard to tell when they are living with someone else. That clouds things - and this is an understatement.

A few background notes: during may WH traveled with OW to Europe, for a three day work conference but a 21 trip all over Europe. We don't have many details because it was "secret" of course! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Of course. He can take his trip, but you can't take yours. I'm sure he sees that as being perfectly fair. It's probably good you didn't say anything about that.
About the money for tickets to the wedding:
I took my time and wrote him back sayng that I would never touch any of the money (not saying "our" "your" etc) without his agreement since he was still the head of the family (thank you Orchid), that we were trying to live the way HE determined we should with what he culd give us but of there was any problem to please let me know.
I told him I disagreed about the trip being for fun and unnecessary since family was very important for us and my sister and neice have no family in USA so it was very important for all of us to be there.

I think you did a good job with this very difficult situation. I don't know if I could have nearly so respectful. Hmmm - but then, you are doing so well in so many ways. At least it looks like it to me. Remember that when I say this, I know your feelngs are sometimes not the best, but you do the correct thing, and that's what is important. It's how you act and how you treat people that in the end makes such a big difference.

Since he had signed off very coldly, I asked him what I deserved to be treated like a stranger, when after all I was still his wife and we were still his family. I reminded him that legally he could change that, if that was what he wanted.

This last is soooo good. Be polite, but remind him how things are. You did such a good job with that.

The following morning he brought over a check for 1/3 of the cost of the tickets (I paid them anyway and hope he will send me the rest in a month).

Does it affect you to see him? Or did he just drop it off, and there was no personal contact?
Your feelings when you see him in person would be kind of an indicator of how attached you are to him now. I know this is personal - I hope I don't stir up feelings you wish to leave alone.

The following day he was seeing the girls so I sent him 30 dollars to cover some books I had bought with his credit card, a fact I had mentioned in my answer.

I didn't think much about this, but you are still joined in many ways. You must still trust him.

The result was that he sent the 30 dollars back with the message that I should use them for our trip, he was also greatly concerned about my car which was in the mechanics and sent the message that he would pay for it.

I thanked him thru e mail and he immediatly answered with a request for me to speak to DD3 about some plans he has which he doesn't agree with and asking if my car had been repaired and how much it cost!

He still shows some concern. I wonder if you see it as hopeful? I wish it would translate into him repenting, and returning to the marriage. I don't read anything into it really. His other actions don't show progress.

This is the first time he has tried to discuss a problem with DDs in all this time!

You are seeing things I can't, because you have a history with him. It's good for DD's for him to take a greater interest, it would be so much better if he was with you co-parenting. Do DD's ever comment on their feelings for him?

This was all these last few days. Today dd3 who is still extremely angry with him, was going to the seaside for a few days and WH came to pick her up at 7 am to have breakfast alone with her before she leaves and give her money etc.
How did that breakfast go?

I hope DD's are happy, and doing well. I hope their mother is also.

So something is happening... let's hope it's a good thing.

I can't see all that you see. (As I said above.) Do you have a theory as to the cause of his changes?

Can you see a trend, or was it just for a few days?

Lately I'm VERY CALM about everything. I have no anxiety at all, no nervousness. I don't expect anything.

I see a difference in you. You don't seem so worried. You do sound more calm, and you seem to have faith that your future can be happy no matter what. God can do that for us. I think he had good material to work with though - so it might have been easier for him in this case.

At work things may be changing too, although nobody says anything to me. I'm still in the same position... but something will happen soon. I have a work trip coming up and when my ex employees realize that I am going (if I go) it will produce great anger. If I don't go I will know what the authorities are up to. Either way I'm in the position of "God's will be done", I'm not interfering.

The curiousity in me wants to know why they will be angry. The respectful polite part of me says not to inquire.

Is this something you want to do?

I'm busy and happy and all those other things happening around me I don't try to find out about and let them work themselves out. I'm in plan B after all....protecting myself.

If you take care of the spiritial parts of your life, God tends to take care of the rest in many cases. Without my faith, I would be so lost. I have had so much help, so many times. I hope you are feeling the help and know you are loved and watched over.

You are a blessing to your older friends. I hope they properly appriciate you. I am glad you visit and help them. At that age, visits from others are cherished.

We had a good camping trip. I haven't posted much about it, and I didn't take many photos. Spent lots of time playing with the grand kids and talking to my sons and daughters. It is rewarding to spend time with family when you can really spend personal one on one time.

I hope the wedding trip does that for you and your DDs.

You answered my questions aout how you are doing emotitionally. I see a much more confident and happy person now. Still........ don't be afraid to dream.

SS

Hi, cc46 (or should it be cc48, now?)--

Nothing of importance. Just wanted to say hi, and to tell you I've got a t-shirt for you, if you'll just tell me your size (approximately). Dinky. Middling. Um, not dinky. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&l thanks for dropping in. I guess I'm a medium... I'm thinking of visiting you for a day but I have to check on flights and prices.... I'lllet you know. There's time. I won't bein USA till august. I have another trip to a southamerican country before that, which I'm concentrating on right now. My mind can't manage too many trips.

SS,

let me try to answer some of your questions.

Quote

Does it affect you to see him? Or did he just drop it off, and there was no personal contact?
Your feelings when you see him in person would be kind of an indicator of how attached you are to him now. I know this is personal - I hope I don't stir up feelings you wish to leave alone.

I didn't see him, I was at work.

I still feel very attached to him but I'm happy not to be in the middle of the situation he is in. I'm happy to be me.
I've only seen him face to face once in these 18 months or so and I was on the phone, so I didn't talk to him.

That's fine with me, I don't feel like seeing him at all. I still feel disgusted. As long as he is living with or in contact with OW that's what I feel.

But I'm still and in some ways will always be his wife. I'm afraid I can't let go of my vows, even if it sounds silly. But they are MY VOWS and not his. He can do what he wants with his.

Quote

He still shows some concern. I wonder if you see it as hopeful? I wish it would translate into him repenting, and returning to the marriage. I don't read anything into it really. His other actions don't show progress.

I'm only relieved that he isn't getting more indifferent, rather he seems to be trying to get more involved. At least we can say that he's not detaching more.

He still gets most of his mail here.

When I suggested to DDs that they ask him if he would be willing to have the house keys while we are all gone, so he cancome get the bills and answer if the alarm should go off, one of them answered she would TELL him and that then he could take the rest of his stuff out. This is the one DD who hadn't really actively expressed her anger at him yet, so it seems that all 3 have decided that he's never coming back.

I think that we still have to wait for the full 2 years Dr. Harley recommends before we decide that this A is an exception to the rule. I'm willing to wait. Plan B suits me just fine. It does have incoveniences but I'm not feeling so trapped anymore.

Unfortunately most of what I have learned in MB is not applicable here. People prefer to ignore As and pretend they are not happening. Lots of other things that you guys take for granted in USA don't exist in this society. Although I believe that those "basic human rights" should exist I don;t find much echo here. Everyone just shrugs and behaves as though it were just a dream.

I'll be glad to get a breath of first world country... I think I need it to regain my strength. I am now looking forward to these trips which allow me to shed all my burdens at the airport and be a free spirit...

I'm tired tonight but I'll re read your post tomorrow and see if I missed anything.

Good Morning cc -

It sounds like you're doing really well. I'm glad you've reached a place of peace and contentment in your life. Who knows about WH, maybe his shell is beginning to crack?

I noticed the comment about me. I'm going to have to sit down real soon and right out a lengthy explanation to everyone. I just really felt like I needed to kind of determine if this is or isn't going to be a relationship, and I was kind of gun shy about getting input from too many folks all at one time. I've found that my pastor is able to offer excellent advice and I'm leaning heavily on him right now.

I'm going to be in Virginia on business for the next 3 days. This trip is going to kind of be a combination vacation / business all in one. I'm going to come back home via the Blue Ridge Parkway (scenic drive down the Appalacian Mountains). Hopefully it'll be cool enough I can put the top down and enjoy the drive.

I'll check back in on you later.

Georgia

Hi FGG,

My comment about you is because I really envy you your freedom, both financial and personal since you are divorced and not catholic. I also envy the fact that your pastor really cares about you!

I don't have those blessings but I have done as much as I could to recover and I'm very thankful to MB because otherwise it would really have been terrible. I don't feel "recovered" yet, part of the reason being that I am not divorced and therefore WH seems to have some reason for staying in the marriage. He just hasn't ever told me it and it's a mystery to me, considering that he has been living with OW for a year and a half and apparently she has even taken to wearing a wedding ring! so they must pretend to be married in some places.

Anyway, the 2 years are not yet up. I have to be patient to find out the end of the saga...

Have a good trip.

And you don't have to explain anything if you don't want to.You seem to manage fine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> without us. But we do like to know how you are doing every now and then... don't forget us.

It would be very exciting to have you visit. But I've got to ask you a couple of questions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> How tidy are you? Does a little ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) mess bother you? Could you pretend you were camping? Indoors. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

t&l

T&L, you crack me up.

Still following along CC. Many of the things you mentioned (that you are still unsetteled about) are the same things I have concern about (for you.) We'll travel along with you, and see how things go.

SS

Patience, SS, patience .... I trust Dr. Harley.

I wonder if we can get a travel report if we ask really, really, really nice?

Please?

Thinking of other ways to get you to talk.......

SS

Hi SS,

I've been following everyone's adventures but I'm quite busy since I got back and a little lazy still. I will make an effort and post an update soon. Maybe I can find a little time at work and start writing....

No rush - but wanted you to know we are interested.

WOULD NOT want you to think we didn't care.

I've been waiting impatiently (typed with a BIG smile.)

Hope you are happy, and well.

SS

I guess I should do this…. (grinning ´cause I´m so lazy about writing)

The main purpose of the trip was being at my niece´s wedding. She´s the first in our close family to get married and also my goddaughter plus I was overdue to take some days off (I hadn´t had holidays for 3 years!). Plus my mother usually goes to USA to visit her 2 sons and daughters every 2 years.

My mother, 1DD and I travelled the day after the “bomb plot” was discovered in GB so airports were a little more complicated than usual. We barely made the last flight, but we got to Virginia as planned. The first two weeks were dedicated to preparing the wedding, picking up the other 2DDs who arrived a week later, shopping (our favourite pastime when in USA) and knitting! Yes, all 7 of us undertook knitting projects! We also chatted and laughed a lot which was good for everyone. It must have been a good holiday because for me one day blended into another and there never seems to have been a boring moment.
We visited the oldest plantation in USA I think it is: Shirley Plantation. Wasn´t worth it, in my opinion. That´s about all the tourism we did, because my mother is not particularly interested and tires easily.

The wedding was over in a flash. The bride looked gorgeous and everyone had fun. We were in charge of filming and taking pictures. I believe we managed to do it right because we ended up with around 700 pictures! Then it was pick up time, time to start packing bags, seeing 2 DDs off (they came home) and finally my mother, 1 DD and I went for a week to Miami.
There we visited with my 2 brothers. A friend of one of them lent us a condo on Miami Beach. It was wonderful! Unfortunately it rained all week and we barely made it to the beach once in the evening. My brother who was 46 the day after our arrival and single let me fix the stuff in his cupboards! That is a major event since he hates anyone interfering with his house and setup. He´s a great host and made us wonderful meals, took us shopping of course (I think he´s a compulsive buyer) and made us laugh a lot.
One afternoon my other brother picked us up and we spent the afternoon at his house. The traffic is really terrible in Miami!
His children are doing fine although it´s so sad to see the 2 who are severely disabled. But they have a lot of help and are much better off in that sense than they would be if they were here.
The kids had just recently started school.
So all in all it was a great holiday. Quite peaceful. The day we got back, my youngest DD was playing hockey and had an allergic crisis for the first time. Luckily there was an ambulance present and they took care of her because she needed intravenous medication to stop it. She called WH to go get her, so when I woke up from my “arrival “ nap he called DD to tell her about it and that would bring her home. A while later they arrived and he came up to tell us what had happened and the medication she had to take etc.
I was a bit surprised that he would come in, but I guess it was justified. Since then I haven´t heard from him, but he is calling and seeing DDs much more frequently. They are a bit “bothered” by so much attention.
One week into my holiday I got an e mail from work saying that because a person had behaved badly they were going to demote her and appoint me! Then 2 days later I got another e mail saying I had been appointed but they were going to wait until I got back to make the changes. I had no intention of cutting short my holidays. Since I got back my boss is too busy to do much so I still haven´t got that position, not that I´m looking forward to it because it will be messy and I will be blamed even though I had nothing to do with the whole thing. It´s not an area I particularly like nor have I ever worked, but it is interesting (anything can be interesting if you want it to be) and I may be able to travel a bit, so we´ll see what the future holds for me.
These holidays I didn’t have much time to read, which is surprising for me. Guess we had too many other things to do. But I did read the 2 books that follow Scott Peck´s The road less travelled. I find him fascinating. They have given me a lot to think about.

I hope my asking doesn't upset you.

You should know that we DO care.

It's interesting to me that many of your family live so far away. Do you ever consider moving? I can guess you would like to say close to your mother.

I'm not much for some kinds of sight seeing either. On the other hand, I do like to get out in the country and see nice views. Fun to spend time with people too, when they are enjoyable to be with. (Like T&L, and I would guess you would be also.)

Knitting?
My W likes to have something for her hands to do, and our daughters are learning too. I thought they were the only ones. That's funny in a cool sort of way.

Thanks, it's so interesting to hear how things went for you. It's good to travel, but it's usually good to be home again too. Did you feel that way?

Did you get ENOUGH time to think?

Too much?

Hope work goes well for you. Can you turn this new thing down, or you would you have to take it?

I should get back to work - Thanks again.

SS