I think you need to let your husband know, in some way, that the OW is taking this class with your daughter. OW might be doing it on purpose. I think it is not acceptable for them to interfere with your DD's life. Also, this may mean that trouble is brewing between them..... Are you sure that this "friend" can be trusted.

I am going away for a conference but H is going with me. So learning and fun!

You are right Mimi. I haven't said anything to DD yet because this week OW is not here and I don't even know when they are coming back. I would have mentioned the fact to her as soon as I knew they were back because I was thinking that it's unfair.

About the friend: she gets second hand information from someone who works in the mornings with OW and WH. Apparently everyone there is "afraid" of OW. OW's GF who is taking these courses with her said she had started her english classes again as an excuse forleaving during work hours but another co worker actually remarked that OW and GF were in teh same class as the boss's daughter! and my friend seemed to even know which classes they were supposed to take.

I find it difficult to believe this version completely, YET, because these 2 (OW and GF) have secretarial duties to perform at this job, so I find it strange that nobody would say anything about them being gone all morning. On the hand the classes only started 2 weeks ago and are not quite organized yet, so probably OW hasn't even started going.

If I do write to WH about this, he willknow someone is telling me things and since OW is so secret about everything they'll become paranoid about who might be spying on them and I'm afraid they'll take it out on the other coworkers.

On the other hand, WH seems to be extremely confused and not really thinking logically so he may have not realized that this can be very dangerous.

What if I warn DD of the possibility of meeting OW at school and let her talk to WH about it if she does?

I think "unfair" is a mild term to describe the OW taking a course with your daughter. That's as close as it gets to emotionally abusive/life-changing for your daughter. How old is she? I remember how painful it was for me to learn as a teenager that my father was unfaithful. It took me years to forgive him. Too bad he was deceased when I learned about my H. I wanted to talk to him about WHs that's for sure! I certainly would not leave it up to her to talk to him. How awful for her!!

LOL! OW remains a secretary. That's telling you something isn't it. She has not gained any notoriety as the boss' GF. She remains at the same level where she belongs.

You said:



So what, CC? This is a problem they created. Let them worry about it and fix it. Don't enable their secrecy and wrongdoing. Have an intermediary tell him, someone in his family maybe. They don't have to know how you know. State it as a fact. "I know such and such and I expect you to do something about it."

BE STRONG! BE THE GODDESS AND PROTECTOR OF YOUR CHILDREN THAT YOU ARE!!

Take Care!

Ok. you are right. I'll talk to BIL and ask him to intervene, and if I don't think he will I will send WH an e mail, but I will warn DD about the possible meeting.

On the other hand, of course OW is still a secretary, or rather she has now probably become like a personal slave and does less and less "work". It's quite obvious that this situation cannot last very long as it is. She might as well quit and become a stay at home OW, everyone would be better off. Except that she'd lose CONTROL, but then she's already losing it.
DD is 18. So far they seem to be taking the sitch in stride. But Thank God they haven't been exposed to the A, because WH pretends that he lives alone and always takes them out alone. They always call him on his celphone, never call the office phone, I guess in case she answers. They are intelligent girls.

I'll make that call today.

BTW, the secrecy is soooooo ridiculous that it is SECRET that WH is not in the country????? My friend who works forhim called and asked to speak to him and was told he's not around at the moment. WTH?????? of course OW's not being around at the same time is also secret and everyone has "obeyed" teh order of not saying they are notin teh country.

WH told his daughters he was leaving for 10 days 1 day before leaving and left no contact phone. HE calls them. He told his mother he was leaving the same day. It is sooooo sick.

Hi cc -

I just wanted to let you know that I am back and reading along. No real contribution to make, I'm so sorry you're having to live this nightmare (just like all the rest of us).

Maintain GODDESS status.

I miss Mimi, I know you do too!

Georgia

Hi georgia, I missed you too, (but didn't want to write that on the thread). We will all miss Mimi. I am not a GODDESS yet, but I hope to become one.

To update my sitch, I haven't talked to BIL yet because I haven't had a minute since I got to work. But I will this afternoon for sure.

But I met WH's other secretary and chatted with her for a while. I exposed the A because as I suspected they are keeping it secret everywhere. Seems OW's gf is even meaner than OW. She has lived with an abusive BF for several years. Sometimes goes to work with bruises all over.

This other secretary says everything is secret and that she finds that neither of the two, WH or OW are happy. Also she has noticed that WH is very distracted and his work is suffering from that.

How was your trip?
Have to look up your thread (while I have lunch).

cc -

I'm sure you're a GODDESS in training..if not already there.

The details of my trip are on my thread, suffice it to say that it was a wonderful trip. Only sad part is that San Antonio is a trip that I had been saving up for WW and I to do together and I had hoped that would be the case. Very, very romantic city. Wonderful downtown and riverfront area. It was last October when I asked WW if she wanted to use her 2 days whe was out of school to go to San Antonio for a few days and she told me she had rather go to Vancouver to see OM. That was, IMO, when it all really started coming apart.

Isn't it interesting how these OP (OM/OW) who are going to provide such a source of happiness to our WS's always seem to have this tumultuous life surrounding them? I know that in my case, OM is rude, lazy, unkind to his wife, and (as far as I'm concerned) not really attractive in any way - and smokes. He sits home while his wife supports them by working in a coffee shop for less than $1,000 / month.

But....he's WW's dream man.

Not that I can be much of an example of things to do right, but I think you will find that exposure empowers you a lot. I know the more our circle of influence (family / friends) found out what WW was doing, the more she tried ridiculous scenarios to try to "explain away" her actions. However, the more she did, the more support I had from all sides. I suspect the same will happen with you.

And...it's good to be back and nice to be missed. I missed you, too.

Georgia

Read about your adventurous journey. Didn't you get just a teeny bit nervous with all those plane mishaps?

I{m beginning to think that maybe OP's can be classified into very few categories, and I find that your OM and Mimi's and mine OWs are the worse kind. Some Op's seem to really regret what they did inmediately. This is a better category. Ours are the ones who insist .... inspite of everything going wrong for them

One of the things the other secretary told me was that one day they were chatting (WH, futurOW and her) and OW said she wanted an older man with a lot of money! This secretary couldn't believe that knowing what she wanted, WH had fallen for it!

Using my newfound MB wisdom I told her that WH wasn't reasoning correctly but also not to worry about words and look at the actions. Most of the coworkers are terrified that they will be fired, but I pointed out to her that in spite of months of venom spilling out of OWs mouth, she has never managed to get WH to fire anyone.

Anyway, I exposed clearly. No regrets. And as far as I know, everyone except OW's GF is on my side.

I hope to be a goddess one day, but I don't see that in the near futur. This is going to take quite a while I think... WH is very slow to react, that's why it took OW several years to convince him to cheat on me. Now it might take a while for him to see that he really isn't happy...

CC -

I didn't follow my own advice...I posted to you without copying it and lost the whole thing.

On the broke airplane subject, I'm kind of used to being around (and on) broke airplanes, but the "smoke in the cabin" part is a bit serious. I'm going to follow up to see what was found on that one.

I think you are onto something on classifying OP's. Seems like, as you say, there are some who make a stupid mistake and regret it, while others seem to be stuck in a lifestyle.

You would think that WS's would SEE this and run away from, not towards, OP's like this. Someday, I may understand the human condition enough to understand WHY someone would want to jettison a stable, committed relationship with their lifelong spouse for the "excitement(?)" of OP.

However, at this stage of my life it makes my head hurt to try and figure it out....

However, Jeb loves me unconditionally.

Georgia

Georgia, I agree. It won't be easy to understand why people do these things. At first I tried to find some scientific evidence about the WS's mental conditions but I never found any. Someday I will ask a psychiatrist or psycologist. Funny enough one of the few infidelity stories I have been told sinc all this began concerns a psychiatrist and he FOLLOWS THE WS script EXACTLY!!!! he is probably the serial cheater kind of WS. He divorced his first wife when OW got pregnant and later married OW. Then when OC was few years old he got another OW pregnant and separated from his OW/wife for a few months but they got back together. Apparently he's very kind to his children so his OC is accepted. But I would hate to marry that guy and he's a psychiatrist!!!!!

Anyway, WS's have been classified but I haven't seen any description of OPs. My OW is sooooo obviously an OW that I pity her, she has no happy futur ahead, whatever happens. That is probably the worse kind of OP because their intentions are never good. Some FWS have told of not really realizing how they got into the A, but this kind of OP plans it and carries out the plan. And even when they are not happy with the results because obviously the WS is never deliriously happy, they don't give up.

In my case when I went into plan B, WH rented a place for himself, and I don't think he invited OW to move in with him. I think she probably invited herself about a month later. Now he's stuck with her. Maybe that's why he works so much, even though she's there always, at least there are other people around and since they pretend to not have any relationship, he can feel a little free from her. At least that's my impression. Or what I interpret based on reading other WH's stories.
Or maybe it's wishful thinking...

Today he called DD3 and told her he would come back to the country friday the 15th. Another secret unveiled, when he left he said 10 days but now it turns out that it will be 2 weeks and he knew it long before he left.

Anyway, I'm so busy at work I'm doing better. Maybe the weekends are now my worse times.

I Have a get together tonight and a family dinner tomorrow so by saturday I should be exhausted enough to not get depressed. And Mimi won't be here to get my spirits uo!

Wonder where Dyinghere is?
better post before I lose it

update: I sent BIL a carefully worded e mail asking him to contact WH about accepting that OW would be going to class with DD. A few minutes later he called and sort of "defended" OW's rights to choose whatever she wanted to study and said DD would stand up for herself etc. When I finally mentioned that the consequence might be that DD refuses to go to class, he paused. I think that made him think. So I insisted that he tell WH that I was not comfortable with this situation to make sure that WH knows what OW is up to and accepts the possible consequences.

BIL is not the best intermediary, but he's the best I've got. I think this is only the second time I've asked him to send a message to WH in 3+ months. BIL is not the best choice because his attitude towards marriage and relationships is not the best.He's been separated for a little over a year,not divorced yet but goes around with his kids and other women. I think his STBXW abused him and possibly cheated on him. Now he's been in IC for a while he's all for freedom of expression and everyone for himself.
Anyway, he's the best link I have to WH. Involving MIL is too cruel.

Good Morning, cc -

Sounds like your BIL isn't much of a defender of marriage or your own DD's. Sad.

Sounds like your WH is getting his fill of OW. Accoding to MB principles, this can have the advantage of getting WH to get his fill of OW quickly as the glimmer starts to tarnish. Are you seeing any signs of that?

I don't recall, but I suppose you gave him a Plan B letter detailing the requirments for NC. If he's getting his fill of her at home and at work, I bet NC is sounding better and better to him.

Georgia

Hi Georgia! (smiling)
Thanks for your answer. I did give WH a detailed plan B letter and told him that OW has to completely disappear from our lives. That means that he has to fire her from his office and either quit the other job or get her to go work somewhere else in the institution. Now I have added a requirement he doesn't know about and that is that OW's GF has to go from the same places too. This girl is a very bad influence.

Anyway, as to what is really happening I don't know because I haven't seen him for 3 months. I always had gut feelings with respect to H and I still have them now, I think.My feelings are that he has never been happy with her but he can't seem to find his way out of the situation.
That's a feeling. Everyone says he's not happy and that he has become a different person with very little control over reality. Sounds like he really has a personal problem as he has always claimed and OW decided to intrude on his life and he doesn't know how to manage that.

Most times I feel sorry for him. The enormity of what he has done has still to be felt, by all of us. I don't think I could ever survive that. He's not happy, that's for sure.

Unfortunately BIL has had a very bad experience with relationships. He's 46 now, not too late to find the right kind of relationship and happiness but the consequences of his relationship with his wife and all this separation and divorce mess with parents who are so shallow about committment and marriage willprobably have a lasting effect on the kids who are 6 and 8. I will pray for him.

Sorry I didn't answer before but today I never had a minute to come to the website. This job is keeping me very busy, thank God.

Today I got my own bank account, with an ATM card and checks. Exciting! See, I'm taking steps to be independant... about time too.

No news from BIL or WH but I did get an answer from Dr. Harley! Following Caren's advice about writing to him (where IS Caren BTW?) I wrote him an email about a month ago but he never answered. Yesterday I was cleaning out my laptop and saw the unanswered e mail and decided maybe I had made a mistake in the address so I re sent it changing the address and lo and behold Dr. Harley answered immediately. Basically he describes plans A and B and their purposes and the he says that "Infidelity is far more dangerous in SA than it is in America because of a culture of no divorce but many affairs". Finally he advises me to wait for 2 years! By then he thinks I will either be divorced or WH will have repented and come back.

You know, he's absolutely right. We should just remember that plan B is for our own protection and also for our WS's protection from us. If you think about it, there are no other choices, plan B is the best.

I always seek posts from WS who have repented and they all tell the same story, whether they still have a chance to save their marriages or they don't. One of the things that strikes me most is their fear of rejection. the importance of patience can only be measured when one takes an interest in noting the dates when things happen. This process does take time, a lot of time.

I hope I can have the patience and detachment required, but even if I don't, MB will have made me a wiser person with respect to relationships and marriage and values. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

CC:

What makes you say that you are not a GODDESS? I now deem you GODDESS CC...

In understanding what's going on with your WH scientifically, I think your answer is in the ADDICTION LITERATURE. Unfortunately, just like in any other addiction, this is self-destructive. His business will suffer. It is a tragedy. He is binging off of the drug now and is no longer able to get his high. He is crashing.

Also like the ADDICTION STUFF, everybody in your circle seems to be invested in enabling this A. Your job is to stop this so that he can begin to really suffer and feel pain. Continue EXPOSE, EXPOSE!!

I don't think it will take too much longer. I think the years of his involvement in the A have already gone by. It was an EA before if not physical.

The OW is putting the nail in her coffin as we speak. She is being demanding, LBing, thinking that she has him hooked, she is showing her true self!! Just think how ridiculous she will look on this trip!!

Be on the lookout for a sign that your WH needs your help in getting away from her. He will try to get contact with you in some way. He will be fearful of your rejection so he may try to make contact indirectly.

I really don't think that it will be long....

Stay busy...... Get stronger....

Wow Mimi! You certainly are optimistic! and probably right but I'm terrified of believing that what you say is true (although I do find it is probably true from the few bits of info I get) and being let down. Dr. Harley (not SH) has answered my mail and told me I should wait for 2 years! He doesn't seem very optimistic, he has probably noticed something we haven't about WH or my situation. I am afraid that he will be afraid to come home. I have kept my word about not talking to him or seeing him. He probably expected me to ask him formoney, for help with the car or other stuff, because not many months ago I did tell him I felt so weak and abandoned and that if I didn't have my family (him and dds) I just didn't think living was worth it. I have always been insecure and although my family (mother, aunts, brothers and sister etc) have been a great support in this situation, they haven't really been very supportive ofme in the past, probably because thought I didn't need it! But I did, of course. Who wouldn't with 3 small kids, 2 jobs and a H who never helped at all with the house or the kids?

Anyway Thanks to MB I am now nearly a Goddess and whatever happens I know there is a futur for me that is much netter than my past. I know I am worth more than I ever thought I was and I also think that God has put me thru this experience for some reason I will know in the futur.

BTW Mimi, church has been a great place for me. I love to go, I always feel calmer afterwards. I highly recommend it.
Even for a few minutes.

I am so busy at work and the computer I have is so old that I haven't been able to check into MB at all these last few days. Today I came home later than usual because I went to meet my new nephew born yesterday. It's good to be busy, it's also good to be building something, which is basically what I have to do at the new job: start from scratch. Not me, the whole "business". I might also be teaching a course next month, and that will be fun because I get to meet a whole lot of interesting people.

Anyway, I'm not sitting around waiting anymore. I'm getting on with my life, while WH decides what he wants to do. I agree with Dr. Harley that it may take longer than what is usually expected, not because of where I live but because WH is always slow. But I also know I won't wait for ever.

You know Mimi, if this MB philosophy works, I will be a star!! I can't move, I have to live and work here, so everyone will know that my weird behaviour was successful. That will be fun but also I hope to help others in the same situation.

will be back

GODDESS CC:

I keep getting logged off so will post to you quickly.

You probably didn't have the opportunity to share all the information in your E-Mail to Dr. Harley that you have shared here. I am optimistic because of the pattern that your WH is showing. He seems to be crashing, trying to binge off of the OW. He seems to be trying to maintain his high and it is not working. Plus, the secrecy factor is important. He doesn't want to continue to live like that. The fact that he does not want to bring this out into the open seems to be telling about how he feels about all of this. I wouldn't give it two years. That's too long!

I sound like a broken record. However, continue to expose as much as you can.Don't participate in everyone's enabling of the A. Make sure he knows about the OW's devious actions against your daugnter. Let him know that you find this to be unacceptable. This is a major LB for her. She is probably making demands on him that he is not fulfilling.

Mimi, you keep that broken record going! I love to hear it.

Actually I've not exposed too much more because there hasn't been anyone to expose to and because if you are right, there may be some news when WH comes back from the trip which should be tomorrow or friday. Haven't heard from BIL who was supposed to tell WH about OW and DD being in the same school/class. So this weekend I will talk to her unless something happens. WH hates anyone interfering in his relationship with me, so I wouldn't be surprised if BIL has actually told him of my position on this subject and he will communicate with me (by note) when he comes back. Remember d day I confronted him by e mail one saturday (he had gone with OW to the beach) and he neither called nor e mailed and talked to me monday when he came back, so I am not surprised that I haven't heard anything thru BIL.
Today a coworker of WH's called for me to give him a message because at the office they didn't tell him WH is not here, and I stopped his request and told him we were separated and that I wasn't in contact with him so he should call WH on the weekend. I thought of mentioning that WH was abroad with OW but refrained from doing so because I have no proof yet. Anyway this friend was very nice and said I could call him if I ever needed anything, which really surprised me since I've never been very friendly towards him but he works very closely with WH and has done so for many years. So I sort of exposed. He'll at least be wondering why. And will probably ask someone because he was surprised he hadn't been told. It's the secrecy thing....

Anyway, I had another e mail from Dr. Harley because I asked him to explain the reasons for staying married. First he said the children, but he also said that we have a life together and we will always be thinking of each other for the rest of our lives. He also said that WH probably does not want to get a divorce but that it's not fair to expect me to tolerate his relationship with OW, hence the possibility of a divorce. Still, he says I should wait for the A to die a natural death. And be very sure to not let WH back unless he agrees to take extraordinary precautions to never have a secretary that he may be attracted to again. The truth is that OW is not the kind of woman WH likes but that's where the addiction comes in,right?

Dr. Harley also said to never talk to WH in an angry way. I will have to work on that since every contact has made me very emotionally unstable (like Georgia). Since they have been written contacts I have been able to be cool about them, but I have no idea how I would react if I were to have to talk to him.

Before plan B I wouldn't get angry at all, but things are different now. On the other hand, I don't think he's trying to provoke me into getting angry anymore, but who knows what the effect of this trip has been.

Good news is that MIL has been friendly. She told me that WH calls her everyday when he's here but that on the trip he hadn't called her, "as usual" when he's abroad. He has called Dds very often, it will cost him a ton...

I signed up for a jewelry class once a week, round the corner from my job. I've been dabbling in that and other crafts so a few good classes will be nice. After that I might do other things like making soap and candles. I love crafts, but haven't had much time to do any until last year and I've never taken any classes so I'm looking forward to this.

The job is keeping me very very busy. I haven't been able to even log on to MB these last few days,nor even check my personal e mails. So far it's still a huge challenge but I'm surviving, actually maybe you can say I'm doing fine. At least my boss seems to be happy. Today I was told I may have to travel next month! That would be great.

About exposure, I do not deny the situation to anyone but lately I don't mention OW, because people don't know her. Also as I said before I will have to go on living here and working here with the same people. There is no possibility of our changing environments so I don't want to expose to those people who will not have any influence on the situation. WH is so isolated, doesn't talk to anyone that APPARENTLY exposure doesn't affect him much. but I know this is apparent. It does and will affect him.

Anyway, I've been calmer and feeling safer since I know I can't meet WH or OW around and I'm feeling stronger about myself. I suspect I'm on the right path to becoming a real GODDESS, thanks to all you guys.
In spite of Dr. Harley's underlying pessimism with my sitch (he insists on mentioning divorce, 2 years of waiting, etc) at this moment I feel strong and hopeful for the futur, with or without WH. I know it will be MY choice in the end. But I also think it's still too early for those decisions and I'm OK with waiting for a few more months. That's today, who knows what tomorrow may bring.
Baby steps...

I know I have all you MBers around if I need you

cc -

Sounds like you're doing well all things considered. I found the more exposure the better, and actually found this to be somewhat of a relief to me. Kind of like I had a secret that I didn't have to keep any longer.

These days, if anyone asked about WW (like the lady who cuts my hair did yesterday), I just tell them matter-of-factly that we are separated as WW has an inappropriate relationship with OM that she is unwilling to end. It is surprising how "liberating" it is for me to be able to say that to someone when they ask, rather than just trying to cover it up the way I did for so long.

Again, I think you're doing the right thing with your jewelry class. Take this time to do things that for "you", to make you a better person and enjoy the things you've wanted to do but for some reason never have.

Thanks for all the encouragement and support you've given me. You sound like a strong lady, I know this is tough. You'll come through it better and stronger whatever WH decides to do. You've made your decision to go on with your life much as I have. Thanks for allowing me to share my trails with you...I'm here to listen anytime you wish to share yours with me (and all the others like GODDESS MIMI).

Georgia