(Continued from "Know of any affair marriages that didn't last")

WAT said:
Wanna try again?

Oh, please. I’m not “trying” anything. I’m laying out how I view things.

views are in regard to promises made, promises broken

And my point here is that there was also a promise made to love and cherish. That is equally important (maybe even more) than a promise not to seek SF outside marriage.

She ignored his pleas for years to go to counseling with him or to get to the bottom of why she was cold and distant. That is also betrayl. That is also a broken promise.

Penguin said:
I think it’s pretty understandable that BSs won’t see a marriage as a result of an A as legitimate. And I think that if that marriage is in the right place, and it’s ok, it won’t matter to the people in the marriage what anyone else thinks.

That’s true and it’s not. I know my marriage has value. I know it because I fought for it. My family knows our marriage is valuable. Our friends know it is.

But it can’t help but bother me when I hear that my marriage is illegitimate or that it deserves to end in a divorce.

Harley's opinion (from years of studying/surveying couples) is that M's that began as A's fail more often (like 97% more often) is b/c of the deceit, lies, sneaking, etc. that accompany the A. Basically saying this M is made up of people with a flawed moral compass, who don't stick to anything they say and have no problem lying their way out of an uncomfortable situation.

I wouldn't want to classify anyone's M as "illegitimate" (that's God's job), but I would like to weigh in on MY opinion (only of what makes a M "legitimate":

When we make promises to love, honor, etc, yeah, yeah, all those good things. That can all fade. We decide we don't feel like it anymore, or the other person quit loving, honoring -whatever - so we're vindicated in leaving.

But when we enter into a Covenant - that presupposes we have entered into a three-way agreement with us, our mate, and GOD.
That is no longer a "Promise." A covenant is to be entered into and ONLY broken by the death of one of the covenantees. Since it won't be God leaving anytime soon, then it must mean one of the other two will have to die to break the covenant. God does not like us to enter into covenant with HIM, and then lightly walk away. And that's my .02 (fwiw).

To me, THAT is what makes a M "legitimate" or not. Everything else makes it subject to debate (such as the one we're having here).

All opinions welcome, since all any of us have are our own opinions.

God Bless,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wiegee:
<strong>
And my point here is that there was also a promise made to love and cherish. That is equally important (maybe even more) than a promise not to seek SF outside marriage.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Love and cherish can be a pretty grey promise. For instance someone could say that by "leaving the toliet seat up" you broke that promise. It all depends upon perspective. Did the wife admit that she broke the "love and cherish" promise?

Forsake all others. Not so grey. Does your H believe he honored that promise when he had his affair with you?

I guess what I'm saying is its very difficult to compare the two like that.

Miker

Love and cherish can be a pretty grey promise. For instance someone could say that by "leaving the toliet seat up" you broke that promise.

It went far beyond the position of a toilet seat. She shunned all physical contact for years and refused to talk about it even after he begged repeatedly, asked what he could do different, etc. Not a good example of "love" or "cherish."

I think the toilet seat example is rather insulting.

Forsake all others. Not so grey. Does your H believe he honored that promise when he had his affair with you?

He believes that everything is not so black and white as some here would have it be. He believes that she left him before he left her. He knows it was an affair, but he does not feel he should shoulder all the blame.

Put it this way: You treat your spouse like crap year after year after year, how can you really be incensed when they finally do something that they perceive is in their own best interest?

(double post)

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

Just addressing the topic in general, no poster in particular.

Adulterous sex, like sex in general..is one of those areas that is very acute..very factual. Not subject to perception.

Either you had sex outside of your M..or you did not. No room for argument.

Betrayal by means of not filling ENs ..not so much.

Particularly with regard to what is known about ENs and how they differ. A person in a marriage may very well be perceived as cold and indifferent, or flighty..or *add complaint here*..because that person is ignorant about how to meet the ENs of the spouse. In effect, what they are putting out, is not being received in the manner intended. That person may be *shocked* to be told that their spouse feels betrayed by them.

So, is that betrayal? Can ignorance be betrayal? Can you betray without will?

I'd have to go with no. You can fail ..but not betray. And so, for me..that entire argument is invalid. Comparing what is fact to what is perception.

No one betrayal is worse than another, no. However..the offense must meet the criteria, and I don't think that *betrayal* is an all purpose term.

Noodle

Particularly with regard to what is known about ENs and how they differ. A person in a marriage may very well be perceived as cold and indifferent, or flighty..or *add complaint here*..because that person is ignorant about how to meet the ENs of the spouse.

And I would agree up to a point. However, when a spouse has said repeatedly that there is a problem and the other spouse denies it or takes absolutely no action to change it, then there is a problem. And when that happens over and over during a period of 11 years, yes, you bet it is a betrayal, IMO. In effect, the spouse has said very loudly and very clearly that they don't give a rip about what the other needs.

So, is that betrayal? Can ignorance be betrayal? Can you betray without will?

If you say repeatedly that there is a problem, then there is no ignorance.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

wiegee,

One of my favorite MB'ers is in a marriage that started as an affair---and they met on this board. Having said that, this kind of situation goes against every moral fiber in my body.

You are correct in pointing out that there are many ways to break marital vows---one of which is infidelity. But I'm with Lupolady on my belief of marriage as a covenant. And the bible is pretty clear that there is no excuse to break this covenant (including infidelity). Of course, none of us are anywhere close to perfect beigns---and that's where God's mercy and forgiveness comes in.

I personally would never be morally comfortable with leaving a marriage---regardless of the situation. Instead, it would be my choice to do my best in the marriage---to learn new skills, and to be successful in keeping the relationship alive. It would never be OK for me to do what your husband did---to have an affair as an escape route out of the marriage.

Do you believe it's OK? If you do---well, that just means we have different value systems. If you don't think it's OK---then what you're doing is trying to rationalize yours (and his) bad past decisions, and trying to reconcile them with making a happy, loving marriage now. And it's not easy to do this in a moral, logical framework. It's one of the reasons I wouldn't leave my marriage---it would be very difficult for me to rationalize and live with this kind of situation downstream.

The situation your husband was in IS black and white. He had an affair. He shouldn't have (if he has morals). There are lots of excuses (and you've listed many completely familiar and "legitimizing" ones)---but morally, he was wrong. And you were too.

***She shunned all physical contact for years and refused to talk about it even after he begged repeatedly, asked what he could do different, etc. ***

You've said this before about your husband's XBW. My question is: How do you know this is true? Did she tell you? Or are you just going by what HE says?
Mulan

You've said this before about your husband's XBW. My question is: How do you know this is true? Did she tell you? Or are you just going by what HE says?
Mulan

I have heard it from both. His first wife and I actually get along fairly well now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the toilet seat example is rather insulting.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, it isn't. One of Chris123's wife's grievance was that he bought Coke instead of Pepsi, so she had to walk out on her family to be with an OM.

Maybe you know the whole truth of your H's former marriage, but, it also isn't unusual for the truth within the marriage to be obscured for the new OP.

Did he beg her to go to counseling...or did he mention it a couple times...before choosing to begin an affair?

If my H had married his OW, I'm sure she would say to this day that I'm hell on wheels and deserved the end of our marriage...instead, he eventually dumped her to come back to me because he loves me.

He lied to her about the state of our marriage from the very beginning of their friendship to the rough ending of their 18 month PA. Just as he lied to me for most of that time.

Weigee, you were a component in the ending of your H's prior marriage. Your relationship will never have an honorable beginning. You could have waited until he was divorced before starting a relationship with him. You chose not to do that.

Obviously you can't go back & change that, so fix what you can, apologize where you should, and go forward on the most positive path you can.

This is a tough discussion you've opened yourself to.

Mulan had the same question I did. So his xw actually came to you and said "I shunned all physical contact for years?" If she really did have you ever asked her why she didnt seek a divorce?

One of my favorite MB'ers is in a marriage that started as an affair---and they met on this board.

Oooooh, the snoop in me is dying to ask. But I won't. I won't!

Do you believe it's OK? If you do---well, that just means we have different value systems. If you don't think it's OK---then what you're doing is trying to rationalize yours (and his) bad past decisions, and trying to reconcile them with making a happy, loving marriage now.

I don't think it is 100 percent bad or 100 percent good. I think there are better ways for a relationship to start, and like I said, I wish my recounting of our meeting drew ooohs and aaahs rather than... well, whatever it is it's drawing.

The situation your husband was in IS black and white. He had an affair. He shouldn't have (if he has morals). There are lots of excuses (and you've listed many completely familiar and "legitimizing" ones)---but morally, he was wrong. And you were too.

Really? I just don't buy that.

Are affairs usually wrong? OK. But I balk at the "all."

I met him through the Internet in 1995 when I was a college kid and far away from home. He was someone from my homestate who told me what the news of the day was and how the weather was back home. I felt friendly feelings for him, but not at all romantic.

And then I moved back and we met. And it clicked. And I could see he was miserable.

Hate to say it, because I know it isn't what BSs like to hear, but being together did make him happy, did give him hope for the future, and did give him the courage to make the hard decision he had been delaying for so long.

Was he particularly immoral? I just don't see it. He was hurting. His wife had hurt him for many years. She *told* him to go find someone. And that in itself hurt, too. The question of who was moral or immoral is murky.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

(lagging connection and double posting problems... sorry)

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wiegee:
<strong> did make him happy, did give him hope for the future, and did give him the courage to make the hard decision he had been delaying for so long.

Was he particularly immoral? I just don't see it. He was hurting. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you're missing the point. You're trying to justify a decision that harmed somebody else and was wrong.

Read the qoute above that you wrote. Now re-read it from the perspective of a person who wanted more money and the "it" was breaking into a home and robbing it.

The end justifies the means?

WAT

[/B]Maybe you know the whole truth of your H's former marriage, but, it also isn't unusual for the truth within the marriage to be obscured for the new OP.[/B]

*laugh* 10 years now... I'm hardly new <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Did he beg her to go to counseling...or did he mention it a couple times...before choosing to begin an affair?

Yes, he asked many times. Marital counseling. Individual counseling. Endocrinologist. Just talk to me... anything. She wouldn't even talk to him about it.

If my H had married his OW, I'm sure she would say to this day that I'm hell on wheels and deserved the end of our marriage...instead, he eventually dumped her to come back to me because he loves me.

I do not say she was hell on wheels. I say she was neglectful. I do not say she deserved to be hurt. But I do say that she helped bring it on herself after ignoring his cries for help.

My husband didn't go back to her because he couldn't take it anymore.

It's a thought that's been bubbling in my head for some time, but one of the great problems with MB is that it fails to fully acknowledge the real harm BSs *sometimes* do that leads to an affair in their spouse. Sometimes, they should share the blame. IMO.

Weigee, you were a component in the ending of your H's prior marriage. Your relationship will never have an honorable beginning. You could have waited until he was divorced before starting a relationship with him. You chose not to do that.

True. I know. To a degree. I know that you feel our relationship had a dishonorable start. I just don't share that feeling myself. What I am tired of is the notion I should forever be ashamed. I won't.

This is a tough discussion you've opened yourself to.

Yeah. I'm a masochist and/or stupid. I'm sure some of you think both. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mulan had the same question I did. So his xw actually came to you and said "I shunned all physical contact for years?" If she really did have you ever asked her why she didnt seek a divorce?

She said that he had asked her many times to go into counseling with him, but that she wouldn't. The term "physical contact" wasn't uttered. It usually isn't in polite company.

Yes, I talked to my husband about this more than her. Consistent story for 10 years. I believe him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wiegee:
<strong> It's a thought that's been bubbling in my head for some time, but one of the great problems with MB is that it fails to fully acknowledge the real harm BSs *sometimes* do that leads to an affair in their spouse. Sometimes, they should share the blame. IMO.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, this is a problem with your understanding of MB.

To the contrary, MB recognizes very loudly that BSs ARE responsible for helping to create a poor marital environment that makes the decision to have an affair easier for the WS.

But the decision is 100% the WS's to have an affair. No ifs, ands, or butts. Period.

I share the blame with the demise of my own marriage. I share NONE of the blame for my XW's decision to crap all over me and her best friend. NONE. The affair prevented fixing the real problems in our marriage.

And, BTW, I did NOT have an affair and I was in the same rotten marriage. I was trying to fix it. It was

worthatry

I think you're missing the point. You're trying to justify a decision that harmed somebody else and was wrong.

Justify? I dunno. I admit that it was not optimal. I cannot call it out-and-out "wrong." How could I, when my husband is the best thing in my life?

Read the qoute above that you wrote. Now re-read it from the perspective of a person who wanted more money and the "it" was breaking into a home and robbing it.

I've tried to rewrite the sentence as described but can't make sense of it. So, I'll answer the best I can from guessing at what you mean.

Was I "robbing" her? She told him to go find someone. She should be held accountable for that, too.

Nevermind. I give up. You have your mind made up and nothing I can say will change it.

I need to go launder my shoelaces now.

WAT