To the contrary, MB recognizes very loudly that BSs ARE responsible for helping to create a poor marital environment that makes the decision to have an affair easier for the WS.

But the decision is 100% the WS's to have an affair. No ifs, ands, or butts. Period.

I fundamentally disagree.

If you as a marriage partner have neglected your spouse to the point that getting tangled in an affair and putting the survival of your family ast risk actually looks good, then you do share your blame. The WS may have walked through the door, but their spouse opened it wide and let them see what lay beyond. "Making the decision" in that case is a technicality.

Again, I don't believe this is always the case. There are some people who will stray for no other reason than that they can. They are truely cruel.

"The Term physical contact usually isnt uttered in polite company"

Oops! pardon my faux pas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I only asked because from my own experience my fwh told some of the biggest lies i have ever heard to the ow and she believed every word no questions asked.

It was not my intention to judge you or your marriage, as a matter of fact i wish you and your H all the best.

It was not my intention to judge you or your marriage, as a matter of fact i wish you and your H all the best.

Thanks. I really do appreciate that.

Off topic, is that you in the MB photo album? I remeber the name from somewhere.

Yeah, it's me. Er, one of them was a joke <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well duh! i would think so! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Well if you want to see im in there too. Hope things go well for you, gotta load of laundry to do. Take care,

michelle

What I am tired of is the notion I should forever be ashamed.

I don't think you should forever be ashamed..
that won't serve anything...

But
I do believe that you should for the sake of your own marital committment and belief in marriage acknowledge exactly what it is you fight so hard to defend...

your husband was not a victim...
he made the choice...
period...

If you as a marriage partner have neglected your spouse to the point that getting tangled in an affair and putting the survival of your family ast risk actually looks good, then you do share your blame. The WS may have walked through the door, but their spouse opened it wide and let them see what lay beyond. "Making the decision" in that case is a technicality.

the neglectful spouses fingerprints will never be found on that doorknob...
the choice to open that door lays soley on your husbands......
no denying that behind those closed doors lots of things may have been bad...

but affairs are cowardly ways to end a marriage...
and are dishonorable in action....

people can and do change all the time...
I hope your husband has changed and learned...


decisions to have an affair aren't technicalities as long as so many other options remain available...

And I would find this world even sadder if people believed that engaging in an affair was a good choice off the menu of what to do with a bad marriage...

ARK

Maybe I missed something--if you are unhappy in a M and are miserable and nothing you have done works, then aren't you supposed to get a divorce? Honestly talk to your spouse and set your boundaries and get out if it isn't working for you--NOT go have an affair and sex outside your M while still in it? Do you HONESTLY think XW wanted him to find somebody else? Obviously she had a lot of problems and the methods her H, now your H was using to get to her didn't work or she chose not to have them work. But NONE of the things you have outline JUSTIFY an A or make it not really wrong. Great, you are happy. Be happy and move on instead of trying to get justification for something that is just wrong no matter how you slice it. And btw, you definitely hindered their M whether you want to admit it or not. Did your H separate from her and tell her he just could not live with her until she/they got help while NOT being with another woman? There are lots of ways to deal with a M that isn't working but an A just isn't an avenue that leads to an honest end of a M.

Sometimes a marriage has deteriorated to the point where neither partner gives a hoot about the marriage. Urging a spouse to cheat and the spouse doing so would perhaps signal the marriage had failed.

Since this is a site for those who either believe in marriage building, or want to try something positive, we don't see a lot of those kinds of posters. They aren't interested or don't stay here.

Cheating is still the choice of the WS. Nobody has to commit a wrong, just because they are told to do so.

Did your H separate from her and tell her he just could not live with her until she/they got help while NOT being with another woman? There are lots of ways to deal with a M that isn't working but an A just isn't an avenue that leads to an honest end of a M.

Yep, and if had more courage, he hopefully would have. But he is human and that was his weakness: thinking that if it weren't for his wife, no one would have him. If he were perfect, he would have done as you said. He's not. But he is good enough <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Do I honestly think she wanted him to leave her alone and go find someone? I can't read her mind, but knowing her for 10 years now, yes, I do believe she said that. She just isn't one to show affection. Come to think of it, I really haven't seen her express emotion, even when she had every cause to feel strongly about something, good or bad.

Did *he* think she meant it when she told him to find someone? She said it to him three times over the space of six months. He was an over-the-road truck driver at the time. When he came home after being gone for three weeks, her response would be, "Oh, you're back."

Hard to feel wanted that way. And easy for him to believe she would just want him to go "bother someone else for it."

the neglectful spouses fingerprints will never be found on that doorknob...
the choice to open that door lays soley on your husbands......
no denying that behind those closed doors lots of things may have been bad...

That's where we disagree, I guess.

people can and do change all the time...
I hope your husband has changed and learned...

The hard way. And if it pleases some of you, he learned by saying the same thing his first wife said, nearly word for word. Karma or what have you. So, y'all win.

And I would find this world even sadder if people believed that engaging in an affair was a good choice off the menu of what to do with a bad marriage...

I have never said it was the best possible thing. But it did have some good effects in his life. Sorry. That's just the way it is.

Cheating is justified? In some cases it is OK? In some cases it helps the person cheating?

This made me nauseous.

If a person is in a marriage and for some reason believes that the behavior of the spouse warranted a divorce, then they should do that if that is what they believe. However, that does not mean that they can cheat.

A person who can't end one relationship until they have another one to fall back on .... I believe they have a very weak character. I won't say they are bad or naughty, I just believe they are emotional weaklings.

wiegee:

You are using the common scenario "the ends justifies the means".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never said it was the best possible thing. But it did have some good effects in his life. Sorry. That's just the way it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll give you a stark analogy. Judas did Jesus "some good" in betraying him---He got to his Father in heaven quickly through Judas's hand. Humanity now has a path to heaven through this.

How would you describe Judas' act? As heinous and despicable---or as not quite the best possible thing, but it did have some good effects?

When you loosen morals, where do you stop?

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: K ]</small>

I just realized something weigee, tell me if this is wrong.

Your current H cheated on his former wife with you. He cheated on his wife because she was not nice to him, and was neglectful. He divorced her after he met you. He then married you. You cheated on him because he was neglectful to you.

Did I get that right?

You have been defending your H's behavior(having the A with you) on the basis that his XW was neglectful. So he was justified and his XW opened the door for him.

I think what I am really reading here Weegee, is that you are defending your own actions as a one time WS. Afterall, your H opened the door for you by being neglectful.

It must be a very secure feeling for you and your H to know that cheating is a viable alternative (on the menu) for a troubled marriage.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Wiegee,

I can see that you already know that almost everyone or everyone on this board is going to disagree with you, me included.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if you are unhappy in a M and are miserable and nothing you have done works, then aren't you supposed to get a divorce ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I understand it, he persisted in asking for change, expressing how upset and hurt he was by the situation and her behaviour. BUT, when he got no response, he didn't take the next step, which would have been to tell her that he was losing all love for her and that if she didn't change he would very likely leave (ie a sort of Plan B).

This would not have been a threat, but the truth, since it IS what happened. Since his XW didn't know this, she missed out on a vital piece of information, the chance to learn a valuable lesson and maybe grow into a new, better, more mature M. Also your H denied himself the opportunity to learn why he was prepared to settle for years with a person who didn't respect him enough to change, also to see that his 'giving in' to this was his own weakness. It seems unjust to me that he denied her and himself this opportunity.

Of course its history now, and I wish you and your H well for the future <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

To all:

I'll keep it short because I need to get ready for work.

I understand why you speak the way you do, but respectfully, I think you are judging what you do not fully understand.

Their marriage was gone. His first wife now says that she thought several times of packing his bags and kicking him out. He thought several times of leaving. Neither had the moxie to do it.

Was he emotionally weak? You betcha. To the point of planning his suicide every day. That's what being in that marriage eventually did to him.

FWIW, the two of them get along much better now than when married. We all live in the same small town and he goes over there regularly to visit the kids and do jobs around the house.

So would it have been better if that had just been honest with each other and separated? Of course. But that's not how it happened.

And yes, the affair did breathe new life into him. I know you hate to hear it. I understand why it is anathema to many of you. But that's just the way it is. It just doesn't fit into your box.

Now, as to justifying the affair I had on my husband? It was wrong, period.

Mutter..flood control...mutter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ March 17, 2005, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Knewjie ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by wiegee:
<strong> Now, as to justifying the affair I had on my husband? It was wrong, period. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So explain to us again why his affair with you was not wrong again?

I'm sorry but I just don't get it. We will probably never agree.

Best of luck to you.

Poor WAT still off washing his shoe laces... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This caught my attention, because it's so close 2 home. Timing, in particular:

"...when a spouse has said repeatedly that there is a problem and the other spouse denies it or takes absolutely no action to change it, then there is a problem...

This is what I heard, from about the time the A started 14 years ago until D-day. I was never given the details, though - like that there was an A going on.

"And when that happens over and over during a period of 11 years, yes, you bet it is a betrayal, IMO. In effect, the spouse has said very loudly and very clearly that they don't give a rip about what the other needs."

I have been told that I did just that. But the degree of "loudness" was entirely in my W's mind. I am not saying that she didn't have legitimate complaints, she may have. But she didn't voice them 2 me with complete honesty, so what did I have 2 work with? What did your H's xW really have 2 work with?

""So, is that betrayal? Can ignorance be betrayal? Can you betray without will?"

If you say repeatedly that there is a problem, then there is no ignorance."

If I repeatedly call the kettle 'black' then it's black, right? I wasn't entirely unaware that there were problems in our M, but I was unaware - and thus ignorant - of the details. I may have even known of each and every problem as it pertained 2 our M. But without the knowledge of the A, the DELITERIOUS INFLUENCE of the OM on my W's very thinking about the condition of our M, we were forever going 2 butt heads over our problems.

I suspect it was similar with your H and his xW.

Like Dr Phil says, "before you can start another relationship, you need 2 finish this one first."

You will never know what your H and his xW might have been capable of, because you weren't out of the pic2re when you should have been.

But that was then, this is now.

-ol' 2long

"Was I "robbing" her? She told him to go find someone. She should be held accountable for that, too."

Yes, you were robbing her. Doesn't matter what she said. She was clearly hurt. My W said "go find someone else" 2. Little did I know that her motive was 2 reduce her guilt for having already done that herself.

Whatever the reason for her statement, your H justified his decision with it when he should have increased his efforts 2 understand where it was coming from.

-ol' 2long