TA, I can tell that you are really hurt. You are asking many tough questions, and you want truthful answers--which is OK. But, please don't judge people based only upon a two sentence answer to your questions.

Judging Lexxy's actions as "cowardly" is uncalled for without knowing much, much more.

Some Ms are dead when the A happens, just as some Ms also never recover from an A. Sometimes the problems in the M are just too deep. I suspect Lexxy is saying that she should have gotten the D before having the A, not that she should have tried to save the M.

TA, you sound like someone who really cares about your WS. Some BSs don't, and they just use the A as one more way to control/belittle the WS. The A is used not as a "warning signal", but as proof of the lack of worth of WS.

BSs get confused, sometimes, when a FWS like me says the A was wrong. Please understand that my approach was wrong--what I should have done was say, "Honey, either we go to MC or I'm getting a D." I did have justification for a D, but I didn't have justification for the A.

Originally posted by Lexxxy:

Before I begin answering your questions, please remember the opening line of your topic. I realize what I have to say doesn't usually sit well with BS's -- but you don't need to call me a coward or any other things.

I'll take back the cowardly statement now that I read this post.

I was taking out my frustration with my wife who never said ONE word to me. She said "I gave you hints over the years. Hints? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for sitting down with me wifey of 27+ friggin years and having a loving talk with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I'll try to give you my HONEST viewpoint, but not if I'm going to get bashed for doing so. Agreed?

Agreed.

Did you ever tell this to your husband before you walked away?

Many Many Many Many Many Many Many times. I would specifically spell out an EN and how I needed for it to be met...and that information was IGNORED.

Can you give me an example?

How would that make you feel? Pretty unimportant and unvalued.

YES

I am divorced and relieved to be.

Because the traits that drove me the most insane about my XH still exist today. He is the one that found MB, and I must say that Plan A was the fraud I suspected it would be.

So his changes were NOT real?

Would you have stayed if his changes were permanent?

I regret how I handled it.

Having an affair was a mistake. A huge one. However I must point out that I WAS THE ONLY ONE NURTURING our marriage. When I stopped it fell apart.

What do you mean by "it fell apart." I thought it was apart.

I am a big giver. When I had nothing left to give I walked away.

Did you tell your husband you were leaving? If not, why?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I would never consider going back to my XH.

WHY? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My love was gone. It was over before my affair began. My affair was a stalling manuever to get my needs met while I waited out my timeframe for ending my marriage.

This is what my wife said. She emotionally left the marriage before she went looking for other men.

Thanks for telling me we were DIVORCED already. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


I had a pretty specific year in mind for divorcing my H. It had to do with the ages of my kids. Of course my whole carefully thought out plan exploded.

How many years were left and what caused it to explode?

What is your husbands situation today and how does he treat you. I'm guessing he is very resentful.

Were there any kids involved [/QUOTE]Yep, 3.

How did the kids take it?

How are they today? Ages when divorced?

How long ago was the divorce?

Who has custody?

Originally posted by knewbetter:

TA, your representation of yourself as a BS on the GQ board concerns me. There is excellent insight into the WS mind (great job, all!) through the replies BUT the reality of your situation is that in 6 months worth of accounting for 99% of her time, you have not uncovered ANY evidence that she is or ever has been a WS.

I believe she is in an EA today because of what she said and did last Saturday.

When she agreed to lets "try and reconcile" (I know it's only because of the kids, not me) although reluctantly I told her I had 2 groundrules.

#1. I was coming back to our bed so at least we could start Acting like a couple again.

#2. She had to STOP all contact with OM. She got ticked off and said "I'm not talking anymore, this conversation is OVER."

I tried to get more info, and she said "anyone I might be interested in has nothing to do with us." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I said "of course it does, we have NO chance of true reconciliation if some OM is involved."

Again, she walked away and said "I'm not talking anymore, I'm finished."

If she isn't in an EA/PA why not tell me? What's the big deal? Why not say the real problem is me?

Why the mind games? Is the truth such a problem? My guess there is OM and she is afraid I will go after him (which I would).

Don't you think that would have been a rather major fact to mention in your intro post or in your replies? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

NO, because I believe she was or is in an affair. Just because I've accounted for most of her time OUTSIDE of work doesn't mean she can't be in an EA with OM at work or OUTSIDE salesmen.

Is she allowing me to feel her more, yes. Are we sleeping together (no sex) yes. I still have this feeling she has someone waiting in the wings ir some ulterior plan and she is NOT really going to work on this marriage.

Nikko is still waiting for answers from you on your Recovery Board thread.

I'll be answering her questions shortly. I'm still trying to get past that statement from "keep smilin."

If my wife leaves me high and dry at the end of Summer and this was all a stalling tactic then I will be ticked off for being played like a fiddle.

Originally posted by Jimmy Mac:
TA, I can tell that you are really hurt.

I'm very hurt, confused, and worried about my wifes and childrens future.

You are asking many tough questions, and you want truthful answers--which is OK.

If my wife would give me some Truthful insight it would help me with some concerns I have.

But, please don't judge people based only upon a two sentence answer to your questions.

I was out of line and I stated that in my next post. I was taking out my frustration of my wife with her.

Judging Lexxy's actions as "cowardly" is uncalled for without knowing much, much more.

Now that she has elaborated I definately do NOT think she was a Coward.

My wife is.

TA, you sound like someone who really cares about your WS. Some BSs don't, and they just use the A as one more way to control/belittle the WS. The A is used not as a "warning signal", but as proof of the lack of worth of WS.

I care for my wife a great deal. If we reconcile the LAST thing I want to do is hold this affair over her head. It would only destroy what chance we have for a great marriage. I will definately feel resentment and anger for a while, but like most I'm sure it will subside.

Please understand that my approach was wrong--what I should have done was say, "Honey, either we go to MC or I'm getting a D."

I would have been ecstatic if my wife had said this. She never said one word. Came home one day last Sept and said the marriage was over, get out of the house ASAP. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If she had told me of problems and I did not follow through with changes, then I would NOT be so resentful. How about a 2nd chance for a coulple that has been together almost 28 years (this July) and have 2 beautiful children 11 & 15.

How the hell can someone do this without any warning? She wonders why I was so caught offguard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

She said "I knew 4 years ago I was leaving you."

I've been trying to "FIX" you for 10 years. I never knew I was broke. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So continue to have great sex with me, go on vacations around the world, let me blow tons of $$$ on your friggin family, buy a new home out of state because she wanted to be closer to her brother, etc... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

How would you like to be so involved in someone elses plans and had no idea what was going on?


I did have justification for a D, but I didn't have justification for the A.

What were your justifications for a divorce?

You did the exact same thing my wife did. How would you like if someone who you thought loved you did this to you?

My wife should have just gotten out my gun and shot me in the head. At least there would be no pain involved. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I hope you never go thru what you did to your wife.

I told my wife I couldn't do what she did to my Worst enemy.

BTW, I assume you are NOT married today.

Any kids?

What has happened to both of you since you split?

O.K. Here are my ugly truths.

Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.

No, I never lost respect for my wife, she is successful, pretty, witty and driven.

At the time, I had a young son. I had a wife who decided that work, friends, shopping, and any other distraction you could think of, were more interesting than coming home and being with her family. This is not an excuse, this is a fact . . . she admitted as much.

I talked, and talked, and talked, and talked with her about this. That I didn’t want to be in a marriage where I was a single parent, that I would rather just BE a single parent and then her behavior wouldn’t affect me. She would agree that she should spend more time at home, but things didn’t change.

I became extremely sad and thought many times about divorce. I talked to her about divorce. I was pretty much informed as to what my relationship with my son would be if I divorced. How many men get custody of their kids? Not many. Then I would hold my son, the child that I spent so much time with, and I realized if I divorced I would be a part time Dad. I wouldn’t be there to take care of him. That he would probably be with a sitter during the week so my wife could pursue her hobbies. I just couldn’t do it . . . I couldn’t take the risk of losing my son. So I stayed and became more and more bitter as time went by.

Eventually I met someone that wanted to spend time with me. . . and it felt so damn good.

For me, I just couldn’t handle the way things were in the marriage and I just couldn’t get a divorce. I hear many BS say “you should have left if you were so unhappy”, well if I wasn’t a parent I would have, and long ago. Kids complicate things.

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?


I loved the way I felt when I was with her. I do think that I could have felt that way with about any female at the time. It wasn’t the person that I fell in love with, it was the fact that someone seem to care if I existed or not. This might not make sense to you if you haven’t lived it.

How long did it take?

Not long.

Why did you come back to BS?

Because she asked me to. She scheduled marriage counseling and we went. We made the decision, with a lot of help from the therapist, to try to start interacting as a couple and not as two separate people who happen to live together. We finally began acting as married people act. We began to threat each other with kindness and respect.

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

Yes. She was always my first choice. She is the only woman that I have ever been in love with. I will always love her and that is why it hurt so much when I felt as if she didn’t give a damn if I was alive or not . . . as long as I was there to do the work everything was swell with her.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

Yes, I’m sure I felt the way I did at the time.

The marriage counselor told my wife the she thought that my affair was a final cry before I did indeed walk. That is probably so. Nothing else I did got her attention. I guess I was finally at the point that I couldn’t live that way anymore and I was finally willing to play the child custody lottery in the court system. I still don’t really understand it all. I do know that if I didn’t do something I probably wouldn’t be here today typing this . . . That would have been a great legacy to leave my son, wouldn't it?

I took the cowards way out, maybe I thought that my wife would surely divorce me when she found out. I never lied about my affair except by omission, I didn't try to hide it at all. If she filed, then maybe I thought I wouldn’t feel responsible for the demise of my marriage. I will say that I was completely shocked by her reaction, by her pulling me tight instead of pushing me away. I really never imagined her doing that. She is quite a lady.

Thanks for being honest CN.

Every bit of info helps me understand my wife a little bit better.

BTW, was your Affair EA or PA?

How did your wife find out?

So you Avoided Conflict for years?

Ever since adolescence - since I was about 12.

I think, though, that you are asking if I brought up my unhappiness with my H or if I just stuffed it for years. I brought it up with my H, on more than one occasion. I told him I needed to know why his A happened, because if we didn't know how it happened we couldn't protect our M from something like that happening again. I told him many times, and with different phrasing.

Sometimes his response was simply that he wouldn't let it happen again. That was not very comforting to me. If willpower alone were enough, it would not have happened in the first place. Other times I'd say "I'd really like us to read this book together" and his response would be cussing. Shut me down quick and I emotionally curled up into a fetal position.

Specifically related to trying to recover from his A, I'd say I did the approach/withdraw dance for a little over a year.

A lot of it was True, that is why I feel PAIN. How can she get past the RESENTMENT if these are her TRUE feelings?

Not knowing your entire story, I would advise that if you believe a lot of what she says was true, you:

1) Work on correcting the shortcomings you brought into the M
2) Have faith that your changes, over time, will cause her resentment to dissipate. This has to happen on her schedule and you cannot force it.
3) Dont' put so much creedence in what your W says. You almost seem to trust her version of your shared history and the current state of your M than your own memories and perception. Why is this, do you think?

I'd like to participate more, but the next couple days are very busy.
Then I am off to Hawaii with my kiddies for spring break!

Aloha!

whisper:

Wow. You hit the nail on the head with your description of the mindset. That section you copied and pasted from your post to an other man.... I could have written it word for word, it hits so close to my situation, right down to the vascillating from one second to the next, and the awareness that IF I weren't married, I dare say the potential for a very good R with the OM was very high. But as you pointed out, we ARE married. Hence, my striving to recover from the A.

Anyway, it's comforting to know I'm not alone with what I'm going through or have gone through. On the flip side, I wanted to share this to let YOU know you're not alone in these feelings either.

TA:

Don't know how helpful I'll be as I'm still very early in recovery, but I'll try...

Most likely you had an Affair because you lost RESPECT for your BS (me) or you were NOT having your EN's met, in most cases.

Definitely it was NOT because I lost respect for my H. I wouldn't even venture to say my H failed to meet my EN's, though no doubt there were and are issues there (SF being a biggie). But more over, it was a matter of my SITUATION wasn't filling my emotional needs/aspirations. The life I'd visualized for myself and the life I'm currently leading (and where I believe it's headed) are very different from each other. Not bad -- many would look at my situation and think I've got everything going for me, just....very different. And instead of learning how to accept that in life we make choices and those choices will ultimately impact where our life goes, I decided to give myself a "do over." OM represented everything I had originally envisioned for my life. Admittedly, I do believe we would have had a good relationship had we met and hooked up BEFORE either of us was married. But we didn't, and I have to accept that. Trying to have it both ways was the penultimate selfishness on my part.

Did you Honestly "Fall in Love" with your BS again?

Not yet. I'm working on it, though. I've only been in NC from OM for a little more than a month, so the process is still very fresh for me. I do feel very affectionate towards H, and I do love him, but right now there's no distinguishing the love I have for him vs., say, a close relative. I don't feel *romantic* love just yet. But again, we're working on that.

My own dilemma is that I'm not completely sure I ever felt that kind of love for him. That's NOT to say I believe I can't get there, but when we first became a couple, I was so happy and relieved to have found the perfect match to my mom's description of a "nice, wholesome man who adores me," I never gave my decision to marry him a second thought. Of COURSE I'll marry him, I thought, for if I don't, another one is not likely to come along for me. Don't get me wrong, I felt an initial attraction to him, and I've always felt endeared to him, but I don't remember ever feeling a genuine sexual/sensual inclination. Again, I'm working on changing this, but that's the history I'm working from. We've now been together over 14 years.

How long did it take?

Again, it hasn't happened yet. HOWEVER, it's much, MUCH better than those initial dreaded weeks after DDay. DDay was about 2 months ago, and in that time, we have both made tremendous strides with our healing.

Why did you come back to BS?

Because 1) he is the man I chose to marry; 2) there is no history of abuse; 3) we have a relationship history that I cannot in good faith ignore, regardless of my feelings for OM; 4) he's the one who is standing by me at a time when I've done such a horrible thing to him -- how can I not give my absolute best effort to recover the M given his selflessness? 5) I have hope and faith that recovery is achievable; 6) he is a wonderful man -- both in general and to me specifically; 7) I know it's the right thing to do; I can't undo what I did, but I can learn from it and make myself a better person for it; that's the person I hope to be to my H.

Is your BS really your 1st choice?

Intellectually, yes. Emotionally, I'm still vascillating (withdrawal still in progress). Thankfully, I'm not acting on my emotions but on what I know is the right course of action.

Did you Honestly mean the words you said to BS during the S0-called FOG?

I did not say much to H while I was in the fog; he made it known early on that he would NOT be anywhere near as patient as some of the BS's here (whom we both admire for their perserverence). Basically, I was given ONE chance to screw up, and that was the A. Any behavior after that, verbal or otherwise, would be one misstep too many, and he would have filed for a D. Anything I've had to say about OM or my feelings have either had to be kept to myself or vented on occasion here.

I hope this helps.

oatmeal

Originally posted by Lexxxy:

I'd like to participate more, but the next couple days are very busy.
Then I am off to Hawaii with my kiddies for spring break!

Aloha!

What island?

Originally posted by SleeplessNSeattle:

EXCELLENT Questions. I'm getting the same treatment TA.

Steve said he had counseled several arranged marriages ...

Can you elaborate on this statement?

I didn't get divorced. I'm still married to her 10+ years after the A. We have a pretty good M. It isn't perfect, but we're pretty happy with it.

The point of saying, "I had grounds for a D" is that if a person is unhappy in a M and the M isn't "working" anymore than the proper approach is to let your S know exactly how unhappy you are.

Originally posted by Jimmy Mac:

I didn't get divorced. I'm still married to her 10+ years after the A. We have a pretty good M. It isn't perfect, but we're pretty happy with it.

Can I ask what hasn't been resolved?

Why are you here if the affair was 10 years ago? Has something happened since? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The point of saying, "I had grounds for a D" is that if a person is unhappy in a M and the M isn't "working" anymore than the proper approach is to let your S know exactly how unhappy you are.

I completely agree with this statement. If you tell your spouse you are unhappy and they don't change, adios.

My wife NEVER said one word in 27 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

TA, reading your thread, and feeling your pain, something comes to mind that our MC said to H after d-day. First, my H had a 9 month EA/PA in which he cut me off both emotionally and sexually. The loneliness I felt from the disconnection was so thick I felt like I could touch it. Being sexually deprived was awful. About half way into it, up until d-day, I probably asked H 4 times if he was having an A. He always denied it, and I was naive enough to think he'd tell me the truth if I asked him. After d-day, when we were sitting in MC, our therapist looked at him and said something like, "Your having the A caused CV great pain. But the cruelest thing you did to her was allowing her to think she was imagining things. That you weren't having an A." When he said that I remember just sitting there with tears streaming down my cheaks because he hit exactly how I felt.

TA, if your W is having an A it is an extremely cruel thing she is doing. You have asked her repeatedly if she is having an A. I think the not knowing is what is driving you nuts. I just wish there was a way you could find out one way or another. At least you would then know for sure what you are dealing with.

Don't know what else to say! HUGS! CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From C. Numb,
I will say that I was completely shocked by her reaction, by her pulling me tight instead of pushing me away. I really never imagined her doing that. She is quite a lady. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What a wonderful story of rediscovery. What a great moment it must have been for you to realize that your wife was indeed madly in love with you. How enlightening it must have been for her to realize that same thing. It's the kind of stuff that movies are made of.

TA, I hope you find the answers you seek in the responses of the many wayward spouses who are sharing their grief with all of us. It is most difficult for them to relive their terrible experiences. I thank them all.

Mr. G