There was a snippet in something WW said last night that I think told me a whole lot about her thought process right now.

She said that she didn't want an M with a "father / daughter" like relationship, telling her what she could or couldn't do. I think she is still very, very much intent on keeping the R with OM, and her motive is to try to convince me (and the rest of the civilized free world) that her R with OM is really okay, there is nothing wrong with it and for me to tell her otherwise is being "controlling" and "judgemental".

I am convinced that the R with OM IS NOT going to end, and I am proceeding with my plans for a divorce. I am not rushing it, and I don't know how much longer it will take.

I know that there is no consensus here of the "right" thing to do, but none of you folks have to live with the decision that I have to make. My decision is to proceed with the divorce proceedings. If, and that is a huge IF, WW appears and tells me that her R with OM is over and she will agree to NC, then I will deal with that at that time.

My mindset right now is that I have a new life to get accustomed to, and that is what I am doing.

Georgia

GG,

I noticed that "snippet" too....and I think that as you suggest...it's very very telling and very manipulative. Please understand that I'm not saying you SHOULDN'T divorce....only that your strategy last night is more likely to help that occur. If your mindset is to get accostomed to a new life without her....that is probably part of what is driving your style. Do you want her to end the A and come back to the marriage? Or have you moved beyond that now? If so and the goal has changed....why continue in Plan B?

Georgia:

She is blah/blah/blahing. FOGGY! FOGGY! FOGGY! I'm not sure why you are wanting to think of her as using reason when she mentions stuff like the "father-daughter" relationship. When I read that, I quickly disregarded it as the continuation of her rationalization for continuation of the A.

You said:

"I am convinced that the R with OM IS NOT going to end"

I don't see how you can say this. The R with him will end. You might not be married to her at the time. However, such an unhealthy R will eventually end one way or the other. She knows that somewhere back there in her mind somewhere.
That's why she is trying to hang on to you.

Ok. I can go along with this statement.



Georgia, I might be wrong of course. I see you as doing that FIGHT or FLIGHT thing I do. On some posts, you talk about how you love her, want to hold her, talk to her for 2 hours. Then, you go on the opposite tangent of, she's never leaving the OM, I'm getting a divorce, SO THERE.

Georgia, why not take it day to day like you say above. Try to get accustomed and enjoy your present life. I think it's learning to hang in there and learn to deal with the conflict rather than trying to run away from it. I see your DIVORCE "mindset" as a form of CONFLICT AVOIDANCE. I'm not talking here about the legal necessity of this. I'm talking about the emotional side of this. You say to yourself to avoid all this conflict, I can divorce her.

So you either talk to her needlessly for 2 hours because you want to placate her and talk her out of the R with the OM or you DIVORCE her. What you did last night was a better alternative. Not ideal but a better alternative.

She is a stubborn woman as you say. She is not going to back off easily. You had to stand your ground with her. It is hard for you. I can understand that. I really can relate to this conflict avoidance issue...

It was so great how you handled this and were able to get back to your dinner.

G'day Georgia

been a real long time since I dropped in to see how things were going

Wow talk about a few snaggers short of a barbie ... your WW is really off with the fairies right now
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My 2 cents is that you take as long as YOU need mate to do what you need to do.
It aint over until the fat lady sings [preggo AW heheheh]so who knows..she may come out of it and if you have a separation agreement what does it matter unless it starts to really affect you adversely.

Good luck to you mate you sure are a battler. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am a CASA volunteer. Very rewarding. As a volunteer you have an AMAZING amount of power, because you work for the judge, you will have a court order that will enable yoiu to see all documents (arrest records, medical records, school records, etc.) The CASA is important in court because everyone seems to have their own agendas, the DCFS is required by law to reunite the family, and the parents will want a child back at any cost (at any cost). Sometimes you get into a King Solomen situation where you know the most loving and selfless act a parent can offer their child is to give them up... The children are not allowed in the courtroom, so you speak for the child. As a CASA you are allowed to question witnesses, you write a report that is read by everyone, and are allowed to speak on the behalf of the child. You are there to make sure mistakes are not made that would harm the child. You don't necessarily give the child everything they want, you wouldn't recommend to send a young daughter home to a crack-addled home even though that is what the daughter wants, but you weigh everything. Some decisions are easier than others. And you will get LOTS of support by your volunteer supervisor. You'll need it, because you are required to keep info confidential, and you will rely on these folks to talk out problems and scenarios.

Hi, GG.

I think that you set a hardcore boundary with your wayward wife, and in my opinion, commensurate with her activity level.

From your history, if you had tried to talk her into leaving, she would have consumed the evening and spoiled the plans with your son.

If you had allowed her to stay this time, she would have done it again. In fact, it is very obvious that last night's visit was predicated on the previous 2 hour conversation on the porch.

Good job. Good boundary.

She is going to be angry with you, but I believe that your stern action this time has spoken to her more loudly than ALL of what has gone on before.

God bless,
Gimble

I agree with Gimble in this, GG. I think you did fine. Afterall, many advised that you do just that should she come to your door again...

She showed where she was going when she uttered the words 'father/daughter'. Just before I read that I had hope...she obviously has a crappy IC. She feels entitled to her 'friendship' no matter how it hurts you. That it hurts you should be enough for her if your R is foremost in her mind. She wants it her way or no way.

You need to keep your own bounderies and protect yourself from her choices.

I was wondering if you could reprint parts of Harley's writings about friends of the opposite sex and the inappropriateness of them. The four rules of protection etc. Has she read any of those articles?

Wow....thanks for all the input, folks. I've been busy for a while.

Where to start?

Mimi....if she can leave me alone, let me live peacefully, and live life day to day, then all is well. Perhaps I do get too defensive and my "fight or flight" comes out as a way to avoid conflict. But...as Plan B is to protect my love for her, it is amazing to me that every time she shows up with her "FGG & OM" mindset, it chips away (as with a jackhammar) at my feelings for her. It is very, very good if I don't have to hear from her right now.

Quote for the day:

"a few snaggers short of a barbie..."

BTW...I know she has read some of the MB stuff, I don't know exactly what. I know that she absolutely ADORES her IC, which kinda scares me. I don't know what she's telling her, but I am very sure that it isn't that the R with OM is "wrong" (that would be judgemental).

SHMI...I am so glad to run into someone else who is a CASA volunteer. That is neat, I hope that I can pick your brain from time to time on issues as I learn.

One thing that I think we all forget(including myself) is that in many ways, I am serving as WW's chief enabler at this point. She is living nicely with no house payments, no utility payments (except phone), and no medical bills. Plus, now that school is out she doesn't even work p/t. She has the best of all worlds. There is absolutely no reason at all that she should, or could be expected to, end the R with OM under these conditions.

I just got off the phone with my attorney's office. I told the receptionist what happened last night and she put me on hold for a moment. She came back and said that he definitely wants to meet with me about last night and for me to get a copy of the police report. I have an appt with him tomorrow afternoon at 3:00.

Georgia

Georgia,

for the record I think you did great!

GG,
I must admit that I’m baffled by the negativism that the concept of controlling seems to denote. I don’t remember which post it was, that I went off on a tirade re: the subject but I did! LOL. I most assuredly did.

In my opinion, controlling gets a bad rap. Controlling much like any other concept has its time and place. Why is it that many confuse concepts like discipline or expressed preferences and how they are expressed, with some kind of draconian intent?

For a WS, it would seem to me that the issue isn’t as much about controlling behavior as it is about mutual consent and agreement. And it’s true…people are free to make their own decisions and choices…what fries my butt is when they refuse to accept the consequences of those choices and instead demand that others acquiesce to their point of view. I mean its sort of like….controlling? Hummmm
Coach

My opinion:

If I wouldn't let WW go out with the girls because she had to be home to cook me dinner and wash the dishes first, I would be CONTROLLING.

If I find it unacceptable for my W to spend 100 hours per month on the phone with another man, I consider it expecting NORMAL BOUNDARIES within a HEALTHY MARITAL RELATIONSHIP.

Afternoon, Georgia,

I just wanted to weigh in and say that I think you did the right thing. I'm sure it was very difficult, but I agree with Gimble that it probably got the message across.

This is hard stuff.

About her IC, keep in mind that your WW is a smart lady and she wants the IC to tell her to do what she wants to do - and can feed the IC only that (distorted) information neccesary to get the desired reponse. And, the IC is being paid. Why should she be disagreeable?

Your son/dil rock!

Hang in there, brother.

-AD

coach:

"I don’t remember which post it was, that I went off on a tirade re: the subject but I did! LOL. I most assuredly did."

That was over on my thread!!

-ol' 2long

And what is wrong with a little control?
Something or somebody is controlling us all.
Fear, hope (if we're fortunate), curiosity etc.

Should our spouse not be amongst those controling forces?

Mimi - let's just assume for a minute that GG is right and his wife will never "give up" the OM.

Divorce. It will precipitate a crisis and he is within his "rights" per Christ and ending the marriage due to marital unfaithfulness.

Separation is for a "time," to spend time with God, to then come together again but NOT to make lame attempts at "standing for Christ" in image but not substance.

This "garbagola" of "controlling" or "father/daughter" stuff she is spouting is bunk. SHE is attempting to control GG just as much as he might be trying to control her.

The bottom line continues to be that no one seems to be taking much of a stance FOR obedience to God no matter what someone is feeling.

To "allow" or "condone" or "ask the pastor not to intervene" is tantamount to allowing "sin in the body." It may "seem" like a nice thing to do from a human perspective, but it is NOT biblical nor is it the "right thing to do" from a Christian perspective.

Mimi, no matter what, as long as they are married, GG IS her husband and IS supposed to fulfill the role as "head of the household" and "Christ's 'stand-in'" in the marriage. He IS supposed to be the spiritual head of their marriage and IS supposed to "stand for Christ." His wife and his marriage are under attack by Satan and by a Muslim man. He needs to CHOOSE, stand and fight with the full armor of God or get the divorce.

Either way, God has given him the right to Choose. But "lukewarm" doesn't "cut it." Not enforcing church discipline, as in Matt.18:15-20 gives tacit approval and acceptance to sin. Not something that would seem a very good path to take regardless of whether or not she ever repents and "comes to her senses."

If you think that's "unChristian," then so be it. My understanding of "Christian-like" is obedience to God's commands and teaching as revealed in Scripture." If I am wrong in that area, point it out and I will repent and submit.

GG, if you are reading this, and if you are convinced that there is no hope in her giving up the OM, then what are you waiting for, or "going slow" for, with respect to the divorce? GG, if the talking of "J" and the ignoring of the situation at church is not going to "reach" her, then seriously consider precipitating the full consequences of her adultery in her mind by actually ending the marriage that is "already ended and no more."

At this point, only a paper document keeps you married and only her "justifications" keep her married to you. All you seem to be doing with these "talks" in violation of Plan B, in calling the cops to do your "dirty work," etc. is simply driving more "love busters" and draining her "love bank" even more. Where is the advantage to playing the hand like a "death of a thousand cuts?"

"Forsaking ALL others" is the key thought. The only room in a marriage, as you already know, is for husband, wife, and God only. No "Other Man," no "Other Woman," no "friends who take on more importance than your spouse," no one else...period.

Someone needs to take a firm, unwaivering, stance for Christian marriage.

I am NOT advocating divorce anymore than Christ adovocates it when He gives adultery as the ONE reason where a Christian can divorce without sinning. But if you want to wait and "go slow," then please seriously consider the harm you are doing by having any conversations with your wife at this point, IF the subject is going to be anything other than the need for Christians to be humbly submit their wills to God in obedience to His commands....just as Christ did and went to the Cross for us.

I continue to pray for wisdom in your situation.

God bless....I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

Forever:

I actually agree with your Christian viewpoint in this particular post.

I was specifically questioning your sarcastic tone when you referred to Georgia's life as being like a "soap opera". It seemed to be hostile. I would think that you did not mean to put it that way. That's the way it struck me.

I've really got to get over my hangup about sarcasm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Today, I have 2 quotes of the day. FH wins the second with:



And, in case you think I'm being sarcastic, I'm not. The past 6 months are awash with actions that were designed to "precipate a crisis", yet none have. It is not a small thing that I have separated from my W of almost 29 years, seen her abandoned by her own kids (for the most part), seen her chastised by her own family, moved out of my home, sold her car, filed for a divorce, and bought my own house. Yet...has there yet to be a crisis precipitated? I don't think so.

And....other than the maddening frustration of it all, why is it so important that I "choose" right now, hurry up, and be done with it? My mindset is that the M is done, over, kaput. But....I know that if she comes back and wants to work on the M WITH NO OTHER MEN INVOLVED, then I will rethink my position. That doesn't mean (IMO) that I have to make that decision right now.

One very real thought that I have that I don't think we've ever discussed here, but I'm going to toss it out. I will be 50 y.o. next year. Not OLD, but definitely beginning to head toward those "sunset" years. As I've been putting up with this "gotta have OM and there's nothing you can do about it" for the last 5 years now, I find it frightening to possibly enter old age with a W that is going to be gone anytime things get a little rough. What if I someday NEED her to be there, say I have some disease or something? Truthfully, I find that frightening. Laying in a hospital when OM#3, OM#4 or whatever suddenly becomes her "soulmate" and "God meant for them to be together", etc.

I guess each time she hits me with this OM stuff, I see a longer and longer legacy that seems likely to be repeated.

Am I being selfish here, or just honest?

Georgia

How do you explain the part of you that talked to her for 2 hours and wanted to wrap your arms around her?

Just here trying to understand.....

Hi. GG.

Quote:
============================
Am I being selfish here, or just honest.
============================

It really doesn't matter. She is the issue right now. At some point in time, she won't be. Until she hits bottom and begins to understand her own nature (if ever), or you divorce her and re-marry, she will be an issue in your life. She will always be an issue in your son's lives.

What you will eventually decide is what you want to happen to add a note of finality to the situation, closure if you will, either with her or without.

All of the wallowing and worrying and anger, all the figuring and planning, all of that is in an effort to deal with her.

When you are done with that, and you are planning your future (which you now have a taste of), then she will no longer be an issue. At that time you can figure out if you have been selfish or honest. Until then, all you have is a fly swatter, and flies coming at you from a hundred different directions.


Be good!
Gimble

Honest.




The part about "going slow" is the part where you are being selfish. But, hey, being married IS about being selfish and just wanting ONE other person in your life.

With respect to your comments about "crisis," a divorce WILL precipitate a crisis. A divorce is a much more significant step than a separation (i.e. "you've bought another house that is "community property" because we are married" sort of thinking). In much the same way that "shacking up" mimics being married, but without the full COMMITMENT and exclusivity of law and morality, Divorce is the "full commitment" to separation and NOT being married to someone unwilling to be fully committed to you.

GG, so much of what I have said goes back to the idea you posted so long ago that your wife thinks she is "doing God's work" in ministering to a Muslim. She is NOT grounded in her faith and not trained for such an undertaking, so she fell into the trap that it is HER, not God, who draws people to Him. The issue continues to be, her lack of understanding and lack of willingness to surrender HER will to God. That stubborn, prideful, resistance is very common, but it always leads to trouble.

I personally think the issue is, and has been, exacerbated by an unwillingness at the church to obey God and apply "church discipline" as in Matthew 18:15-20. If the CHURCH will not stand for Christ, why should the individual who is caught up in sin?

Until your wife is convicted of her sin and willfulness, there can be no restoration with God, and no sincere restoration with you. That has always been "my point."

I know what you mean about the 29 years. Our 30th anniversary is in 1 week, and I look back at 9 years of that being "clouded" in sin and adultery. 3 years in recovery, and only the past couple of months where it looks like the last tendrils of the affair are finally dropping off the carcass.

It IS hard. It IS tough. It IS uncertain. It IS Agape love. But it DOES take two, trying, and willing to pick themselves up from any "false steps" along the way. It DOES take an enduring commitment. It MUST have willing surrender to God, because humans alone do not have enough innate strength to deal with the trauma or the vicissitudes of recovery.

God bless.