***Dear Mulan,
Would you please tell me: are you choosing to stay with WH in spite of his "inappropriate friendships"? How do you do it? How long have you been doing it? Is there a "silent" understanding between you and WH to allow this?***

Hi Luna,
Good question. I stay mostly because of my son - he is 17 and a junior in high school, and we are close. I think he still needs his mom for a short while yet. I have been battling my H for several years now over his behavior. He *says* it has stopped, but still is happy to keep me totally out of his work life and go places without me. He *says* he wants the marriage, but got away with putting me in second place for so long that it's like trying to turn the Titanic to get this behavior to change. Also, if he changed now, that would be admitting that he and his beloved company were wrong in their "no spouses" policy . . . so it drags on, as I become more and more withdrawn.

Right now he is out of the country. I haven't tried to contact him and haven't asked him one word about what he's doing, who's there, etc. etc. - all stuff that was a real concern to me before. I've pretty well gotten to the point where I can say "I don't care" and mean it. He is still calling, however. I think he's getting the message that I am moving on. Yesterday I got rear-ended in my van out at the airport (oh, joy) but didn't even bother trying to contact him -- just took care of it all myself. He thinks I can't live without him and will put up with whatever he does for that reason.

Heh.

***Now, to your question to me. What I want I can't have!***

Who sez? It might take some time, but who sez you that what you want you can't have? Your H? Nope -- your *W*H is saying that. Big difference.

***So I don't ask myself the question. I would ask myself more: what am I prepared to settle for at this point, given the circumstances?***

Do not "settle" for anything but a real marriage to a real man. I am assuming that's what you want. Why on earth should you have to settle for less? Because WH wants a wife *and* a girlfriend??? NO!

***Give my 'approval' to WH (who is in fogland) what he thinks he wants right now, a separation,***

If you don't want a separation, DON'T give it to him. Make him work for every bit of this crap he THINKS he wants and make him do 100% of the dirty work. If he wants a separation, make HIM be the one to pack up and leave. Unless you want a separation yourself -- and you have said you do not -- DON'T LIFT A FINGER TO HELP HIM DESTROY YOUR MARRIAGE.

Again: He is holding this "I'm moving out anyway so you might as well go along with it and not make a fuss" as a bullying tactic to keep you quiet and out of the way. He might well leave if you call his bluff, but trust me -- if he wanted to leave, he would leave, and he sure as hell wouldn't need your blessing. He is only trying to control you with his cruel threats of abandonment. He wants to force you to agree so he can feed his own fantasy about how Luna will really be okay with him having a girlfriend. (retch)

***or hold off with my position: assure him that I am ready to work it out between us (because WH is not sure I would want him back, or ever forgive him).***

Just keep repeating that he is absolutely right -- you absolutely DO NOT want this stranger known as a WH back. You want your HUSBAND back. Big differenece!

***Even if he chooses to give up OW to work it out with me, it may not work out afterall, because, to be honest, I cannot guarantee that I can get past this (and WH knows this, too).***

That is perfectly fine. You don't have to decide this today (really, you don't.) Whether you can get past it or not will largely depend on his actions. So, how does he plan to HELP you get past it?

***I know I cannot stop him from walking out the door (and H may eventually choose to take this route).***

Absolutely. Don't even try. In fact, the next time he says this, go hand him his car keys and physically open the door for him. Then leave the room. I did this a couple of times with my H. He was furious, but did stop threatening to leave. It's funny how it suddenly isn't so appealing when nobody is feeding their ego by trying to stop them.

***In the meantime, life must go on. I need to work, I need to take care of my boys, and I need to be functional, while being in limbo. It's the "being limbo" part that I am having trouble handling. Humans do not have switch buttons - I need to be able to stick it out for awhile because in the grand scheme of life 6 months to a year is not that long, except while you are in it.***

Yes. Just keep putting the ball right back into his court whenver he tries to lob it at you. He wants to leave? It's a free country and you probably aren't big enough to tie him up and force him to stay -- and besides, kidnapping is illegal anyway. So here's your car keys, dear, have a nice time.

Just keep repeating like a broken record that you want your Husband back - Your Husband, not OW's Boyfriend. You have no interest in OW's Boyfriend and no desire to be around him. But you do miss your Husband and wish he would come home.

***I don't know what H is thinking right now. He wants the OW, too scared to go "off" right now unless being "civil" about it with me, may need to choose to do without being "civil" about and walk out the door (I can't stop him), but right now he is more or less confused, like I am!***

Luna, he is NOT confused. He just wants you to think he is, so that he can keep you and OW dangling on a string. In his fantasy world, he's got it all perfectly planned out, and as long as you let him bully you with his "I'm leaving so you'd better be nice about it" threats, he will go right on doing that to keep you scared and off-balance -- right where he wants you.

***So, what to do with two confused people? We may deserve each other!***

Neither of you are confused. He wants a wife and a girlfriend, and is so deep in fantasyland that he honestly thinks he can make that work. You want a real husband and a real marriage. What is confusing about that?

***I am choosing to reduce my objectives for now to simply providing for the "basic needs" - be sure a get enough sleep (so I am seeing a doc to see if I can get some medication temporarily to help me make sure I get enough sleep - and I worry about getting hooked on pills by doing this) so I can work so can make enough money to get food on the table and clothes on our backs - ***

Good. This is what everyone means when they say "Take care of YOU first.

***I would not want to be in H's shoes - to get what he thinks he wants - he needs to accept that he is choosing to hurt people he cares about, hence, the guilt trip - which is not something to be proud of, nor very pleasant to live through.***

This unbelievable cruelty is part of adultery -- sad but true. And the cheaters are too deep in fog and denial and self-absorption to see it.

***I may be in denial. I would like to think that this is all a bad dream - but I know better.***

No, I just think you are letting him bully you because it is so foreign to you that you are still in shock from his actions and unsure of how to act. Just keep repeating to him, "I do not want OW's boyfriend in my house. If he leaves, I will not miss him. But I do miss My Husband and I do wish My Husband would come home."

***So, confused as I am, I am just taking it one day at a time, getting as much support from my friends as I can (without being a burden to them). You never know where life takes you - I never thought I would end up calling a "suicide" line just to help me talk my way out of the seconds that felt hours where I did not want to live because the pain was too much to bear.***

I am so sorry this is happening to you. You did the right thing by calling the hotline. If you can find a few personal friends to call as well, that will help, too. You are not alone, even if it's just this message board. I've been in that dark place too, more than once.

I gotta get back to work now -- keep posting and letting us know how it's going. There are many people more experienced than me who can help you, too.
Hang in there, and remember: Don't accept WH -- only H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Thank you for your reply Mulan... really appreciate it. I see that you also have your challenges. Good luck and thank you for being there and for your advice.

I am giving myself some objectives:

1) not to assume the worst (not working for me) and ACT AS IF... My feeling is that part of the problem is my trying to protect myself by thinking about what could be the worst thing that could happen, because all this does is get me all upset and anxious, and I get into a vicious circle - taking it one day at a time seems to be working better - and not think toooo far ahead, or else I get dizzy - but it will be hard ex. planning summer vacation, kids day camp, etc.

2) I am trying hard to make our family life pleasant so that H has little to report back to OW. Besides seeing each other at work, I know for a fact they have short phone conversations each night (when H walks the dog) - I learned to check "phone history" on his cellular. I will be surprised the day they won't speak to each other - and if this got me upset before, it doesn't anymore.

3) Even though I may have doubts, I choose not to question my H about some of his activities, which I see as a LB (H feeling being interrogated), and actually force him to lie more if it's a lie (because if that's what it is, I now know it will only take more lies to cover up a lie) and thus without knowing it, I actually encourage H to learn to lie to me more and more (definitely not an objective of mine!), and I then would only get more and more suspicious - (sometimes, possibly for no reason - I know, I have good reasons!) - and I would only start inventing the worst case scenarios, and that would not be in my best interest, or anybody else's.

4) I am trying hard to be 'there' if needed, but at a distance; don't necessarily speak on the phone everyday (as used to do); if H is in a bad mood sometimes (can't blame him in our situation) I will let him blow off his steam first: it's what I call the "don't be in the way" technique, as sometimes H hurtful "to person that is there/easy target", and then feels bad: so, again, not good for anybody.

I do wonder sometimes if OW gets impatient with H or not about him taking so long to leave family (I wish she would!), or is she that perfect and loving! (according to H, she feels bad about what she is doing to me! HA HA) But, need to stop comparing myself to her - not helpful - if anything, I should think that YES she is getting fed up. But, better not to think anything at all, like don't waste my time on HER in any way, DO NOT FOCUS ON HER, period - another objective (5)

My H cracking jokes about Prince Charles (and his marriage to Lady D being a threesome) confirms your theory - he would really want it all - live on his "own" and not deal with a "partner in life" and daily routine; have his Girlfriend on the side (because I don't believe for now they would choose to live together) and only do "fun things" and therefore avoid the deadly "daily routine", and co-parenting with me. The only one who does not seem to want to go along with the deal is ME (but, I may have to accept it one day, but not today!)

I see the frustrations mounting, and H is not good at dealing with frustrations! A bomb may be ready to explode, OR NOT! but I have decided to deal with it when it does - I am trying to catch myself - IF IT DOES, IF IT DOES).

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to check up on me Mulan and all the others as well. This is definitely new territory for me.

Bye

Luna,
Here are some things that jumped out at me in your post:

***I am trying hard to make our family life pleasant so that H has little to report back to OW.

This sounds like appeasement to me. You are playing right along with his game and giving him 100% of what HE wants, while sacrificing your own needs in the process.


***I choose not to question my H about some of his activities, which I see as a LB (H feeling being interrogated), and actually force him to lie more if it's a lie

***thus without knowing it, I actually encourage H to learn to lie to me more and more

In these statements, YOU are taking responsibility for HIS behavior.


***if H is in a bad mood sometimes (can't blame him in our situation) I will let him blow off his steam first

***it's what I call the "don't be in the way" technique, as sometimes H hurtful "to person that is there/easy target", and then feels bad:

***I see the frustrations mounting, and H is not good at dealing with frustrations!

***A bomb may be ready to explode, OR NOT!

This sounds like a man with a dangerously bad temper.


From what you are telling us, I am getting the clear picture of a very immature man who has learned to control his wife through threats, bullying, and bad temper. His wife has learned to walk on eggshells, not upset him, blame herself for his bad behavior and stay out of his way at all costs.

Luna, this is a classic case of emotional abuse. I wish you would print out this thread and take it to an expert in abuse.

And I am wondering what else is going on here that you have not mentioned -- has he ever been physically violent? Pushed you? Slapped you? Broken your things? Broken things around the house?

I'm thinking you need more help here than just the MB board can give you, though of course I hope you do keep posting for encouragment and let us know how you are.

Somebody else jump in here -- what do the rest of you think?
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

quote:---------------------------------------------
***I am trying hard to make our family life pleasant so that H has little to report back to OW.

This sounds like appeasement to me. You are playing right along with his game and giving him 100% of what HE wants, while sacrificing your own needs in the process.
---------------------------------------------

I was thinking more along the lines of doing what needed to be done ie. around the house, etc. The one topic I intentionally avoided was an R discussion that get us nowhere, because I truly believe H, not being able to get exactly what he wants (my collaboration at separating) does not know what to do or decide. If I want an R discussion, it would if I had made a decision i.e. "have had enough, etc" which I also have not yet reached. Yes, I am sacrificing some of my needs, those that he would be meeting and cannot while having an A at the same time.

quote:---------------------------------------------------
***I choose not to question my H about some of his activities, which I see as a LB (H feeling being interrogated), and actually force him to lie more if it's a lie

***thus without knowing it, I actually encourage H to learn to lie to me more and more

In these statements, YOU are taking responsibility for HIS behavior.
-------------------------------------

What I meant is not ask for more details than usual, and sound like I am checking up on him and seeing if he can answer all questions, etc. which ends up feeling like an interrogation, which I don't really want to do.


quote:-----------------------------------
***if H is in a bad mood sometimes (can't blame him in our situation) I will let him blow off his steam first

***it's what I call the "don't be in the way" technique, as sometimes H hurtful "to person that is there/easy target", and then feels bad:

***I see the frustrations mounting, and H is not good at dealing with frustrations!

***A bomb may be ready to explode, OR NOT!

This sounds like a man with a dangerously bad temper.
-------------------------------------

Sorry, Mulan, I re-read myself, and not knowing H, it certainly gives a very bad picture of him. Please remember that in my posting I am focusing on his less-than likeable qualities. Let me assure you, his more than just that, for sure.


quote:------------------------------------------------
From what you are telling us, I am getting the clear picture of a very immature man who has learned to control his wife through threats, bullying, and bad temper. His wife has learned to walk on eggshells, not upset him, blame herself for his bad behavior and stay out of his way at all costs.

Luna, this is a classic case of emotional abuse. I wish you would print out this thread and take it to an expert in abuse.

And I am wondering what else is going on here that you have not mentioned -- has he ever been physically violent? Pushed you? Slapped you? Broken your things? Broken things around the house?

I'm thinking you need more help here than just the MB board can give you, though of course I hope you do keep posting for encouragment and let us know how you are.

Somebody else jump in here -- what do the rest of you think?
Mulan
-----------------------------------------------

No, no physical abuse is going on. Emotional abuse? I would say, yes, like so many here, when WS chooses to have an A. When I say "let off steam", it's more like knowing that he is upset, can't talk about at the moment, but can discuss it later - doesn't happen to all of us? We can't talk about something when we are mad, frustrated, but later it will be OK. I was thinking more along the lines of not being "pushy" and wait until H is more able to talk about is upsetting him/her. Particularly at this time. He really doesn't like himself right now. These days, he's the first to admit that "he can't be easy to live with". He's really not himself these days. I do miss my H and not the OW's boyfriend.

I do agree that he maybe immature, especially if he is imagining that an A is reality.

I don't know about emotional abuse, but I am definitely on an emotional rollercoaster!

I "hear" your concern, and yes, I am definitely not standing up for myself, but I do have my limits, I just hope I am careful enough not to go beyond my limits.

Bringing this back up for more responses -
Mulan

Hi Mulan and others,

Just read a thread re PLAN A (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB37&Number=1026044&Searchpage=2&Main=1026029&Words=doormat&topic=&Search=true#Post1026044)

that I found really helpful, because that is what my intention is right now, although I may not be doing it very well. Anyway, I printed out the thread and will read it over often. There seems to be a lot of pitfalls when doing PLAN A.

Last night and today I feel I am more in control of my "reactions", which it sounds to me you need to have if you want to do a good PLAN A. I am trying to detach "how I feel" vs. what H "does", and that I have options on how I react to what he chooses to do (or not do!).

I really want to give this a shot - so that one day, if it doesn't work out, I can at least say that "I tried" and hopefully not have any regrets about what I could/should have done. I am trying not make major decisions based on "reacting" to my H's behaviour only, nor too quickly.

For example, this morning he reacted "badly" to one of the boys' requests - rather than a simple, calm "NO - it would not be possible" - I tried not to intervene (as I would sometimes). H called me at work one hour later, crying, and admitting how badly he had acted this morning, how he was going to have to "talk about it" with our son and apologize, and that he just wanted me to know that he felt like a jerk and knew he couldn't leave it at that - OH how he hates himself when these incidents happen - all he can do once it's happened is discuss it and apologize. OH how I want him to so badly get to that point about how he is acting that way with me! I thanked him for letting me know how he felt and what he intended to do about it - I think I should have stopped there, but unfortunately I added that possibly "just not having enough sleep and it being a stressful week for me" may have had something to do with the way he acted (I really wish I had not added this comment and trust him to figure it out on his own!), but I am getting better at it.

Hi Luna,

I have not posted in awhile, but I have been keeping up with your posts. I am a FWW--so maybe my personal experience (and perspective) would be of some help.

Your Plan A stuff is good, but until you insist on NC you are not really going to make any progress and I believe that you risk "d'enfoncer" the A. I can see how your situation sounds like a really nice plan...”I will fill his cup in the way I can and he will either come to his senses and realize he will want his family. OR, he will leave us.”

Nice in theory, but it wont work for a WS. See, coming to his senses and wanting his family will ONLY happen when OW is out of the picture OR when you are out of the picture.

And LUNA, I am slightly suspicious that this seems like a good plan to you too, because the thought of really confronting WH not only means facing the conflict-avoider mode that you are in---but possibly pushing your WH out the door (since that is what he has threatened.) But as you said yourself—they don’t plan to live together. So call his BLUFF!!! (Also, I would bet that once you take a good healthy stand as a good strong woman and insist on only healthy things in your household—he will respect you!)

Now, I understand he works with her etc. But I am just trying to warn you that the current situation will drag on as long as YOU or the OW allow it to.

I think you ought to consider:

How long are you planning to stay like this? Are you EVER going to insist on NC? Are you saving money and preparing for Plan B?

Oh and that whole business about her feeling bad for you. MAKE ME PUKE. This really bugs me and is very manipulative on her part---see because by voicing her “pain for YOU” she is validating his bad feelings about what he is doing (and somehow relieving them) and all the while making herself look good in his eyes. (Oh, see she feels bad for hurting my family, she is a good woman afterall) Grrr!!!

Anyway, Luna, from my perspective you are really just treading water right now—you need more than to just be supporting and loving to your WH—you need to get him off his drug! You have to get her OUT of the picture.

Hope that helps!

This is the most useful advice anyone has given you yet. Heed this advice. Anything short of this will yield you surefire results....failure.

LM

To Ahuman,


quote:------------------------------------------------
I am slightly suspicious that this seems like a good plan to you too, because the thought of really confronting WH not only means facing the conflict-avoider mode that you are in---but possibly pushing your WH out the door (since that is what he has threatened.) But as you said yourself—they don’t plan to live together. So call his BLUFF!!!
---------------------------------------------------------

Right now, the last thing I have done is write him a letter stating my position (have contributed to problems, prepared to work on problems, he needs to put "distance" with OW, and then with effort and desire, to work on M, prepared to discuss it further). He has not yet replied to the letter - he is thinking things over - but you may be right - I may be in conflict-avoider mode - I will honestly only know when H responds to my "proposal". I needed to be realistic with NC. My best shot is asking for "distance" which we've discussed already - meaning, "work-related contact".

quote:-------------------------------------------------
How long are you planning to stay like this? Are you EVER going to insist on NC? Are you saving money and preparing for Plan B?
-------------------------------------------------------

Right now I can't insist on NC - he will insist he needs to work - I can only insist on "work-related contact" only - NC can only happen at the end of the school year - but I hear you when you say that without it, there's very little chance....... but I still need to try.


quote:----------------------------------------------------
Oh and that whole business about her feeling bad for you. MAKE ME PUKE. This really bugs me and is very manipulative on her part---see because by voicing her “pain for YOU” she is validating his bad feelings about what he is doing (and somehow relieving them) and all the while making herself look good in his eyes. (Oh, see she feels bad for hurting my family, she is a good woman afterall) Grrr!!!
---------------------------------------------------------

ME, TOO.


Quote:---------------------------------------------------
How long are you planning to stay like this? Are you EVER going to insist on NC? Are you saving money and preparing for Plan B?
---------------------------------------------------------

For now, I would like to know what he has to say about the content of my letter - if he says he needs to leave - then I need to be prepared to say: please do so (you are absolutely right - I am scared to death because I will have to do it if it comes to that - he may know it, too, which is why he has not said anything about leaving since my letter.


quote:---------------------------------------------------
you need more than to just be supporting and loving to your WH—you need to get him off his drug! You have to get her OUT of the picture.
--------------------------------------------------------

So, as Lemonman says: Anything short of this will yield you surefire results....failure.

I have to be honest - this is all very depressing to hear - but I need to respect your experience.

Will keep you up to date.

Oh, I wanted to add a comment to your WH notion that OW is not a "bad" person and feels bad about what she is doing to his family.

If he ever mentions this or the like again, consider this:

If someone is acting on love or as a true friend, they don't have to lie or hide their actions.

A real friend would not support betraying those he loves or doing things that compromise your dignity. (Or be so selfish as to take time (and attention) away from his boys.)

A real friend would say, I am sorry you are unhappy in your marriage, go talk to your wife and figure it out. If you cannot work it out, then leave in an honest manner and keep your dignity--ask for a divorce.

Also Luna, you keep mentioning your fear, but if your goal is to get yourself healthy and manage your own life..then you have nothing to fear except staying in this mess.

That is, if WH gets healthy--then he will open up and try to make a better M. IF WH doesn't want to get healthy--then it is only better for you that he leaves and you can move on to a healthier relationship.

Finally, I feel better knowing that you wrote WH a letter...does it have a deadline for him to reply? Do you have one? Also, it is better to know that you defined the NC--even if it is distance, but this also means you plan to write her the NC letter, right? This is an essential step in the process if you want to decrease chances of relapse.

Anyway....that's my extra comments...I hope some how they help you.

P.S. Just curious--has he ever met her kids? Has she met yours? Does your WH have family in town? Is he close to them? I ask all of this because it is amazing how a WS doesn't even consider how the OP will fit into their real lives. As if they just plan to ONLY have the relationship with OP... or that everyone in their life will like the OP as much as they do. (HA! He needs to think again if he imagines your boys accepting this lady that betrayed their family and caused a divorce!!)

To Ahuman:

quote:---------------------------------------------------
you keep mentioning your fear, but if your goal is to get yourself healthy and manage your own life..then you have nothing to fear except staying in this mess.

That is, if WH gets healthy--then he will open up and try to make a better M. IF WH doesn't want to get healthy--then it is only better for you that he leaves and you can move on to a healthier relationship.
---------------------------------------------------------

You're right. It may be slow, but I am working on myself... and imagining myself by myself....not easy to do after 20 years.

quote:--------------------------------------------------
Finally, I feel better knowing that you wrote WH a letter...does it have a deadline for him to reply? Do you have one? Also, it is better to know that you defined the NC--even if it is distance, but this also means you plan to write her the NC letter, right? This is an essential step in the process if you want to decrease chances of relapse.
---------------------------------------------------------

No, it doesn't have a deadline. H works better without deadlines.... I want him to give him time to think things out without pressure. I think this "limbo" period is hard on him, too. There are decisions that will need to be made that give it a "natural" deadline ex. what we will be doing over the summer, the end of the school year (where they work together). I am going to give it a shot at a "natural" cycle of moving ahead, one way or the other. If not, I will tell him when I have reached my limit and will give him a deadline to decide.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
P.S. Just curious--has he ever met her kids? Has she met yours? Does your WH have family in town? Is he close to them? I ask all of this because it is amazing how a WS doesn't even consider how the OP will fit into their real lives. As if they just plan to ONLY have the relationship with OP... or that everyone in their life will like the OP as much as they do. (HA! He needs to think again if he imagines your boys accepting this lady that betrayed their family and caused a divorce!!)
----------------------------------------------------------

I don't think he has met her kids. Her kids are adults. She is "free" - sort of. H is the one with a 9-yr old and an adolescent to raise! Right now I have decided not to focus on their R - up until now from what I have heard - they are in fantasyland. I don't ask details because H ends up eventually defending/justifying his actions, defending her, etc. I am trying to avoid saying the obvious - he's an intelligent man, the less I say, the more he will hear himself (rather than put energy in defending actions) I really don't think I am avoiding confrontation - it's his comfort zone - and a way of avoiding the real issues, and what I want to do is give him the "space" to realize/think about true consequences rather than waste time in trying to convince me about having found his "soulmate",etc. No, his family has not met her (they don't live in the same town) that I know for sure. Unfortunately for him, his family likes me very very much. Deep down I think H knows, the more A/R comes out/real world, it loses some of its attraction and logistic problems start to come up (like, not really having enough money to run two households....)

Here's an update: As I said, I may not ask questions re OW and their R, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to know how situation sits with OW, etc. I mean he does come "home" to his family every night! And apparently one of the things OW did not like about her M was being alone in town during weekdays (because the weekend she was with family in country). So, on a routinely basis I do check for notes, cell call history, etc. as a way of trying to keep myself informed of "my reality" which I wasn't aware of all of the past Fall.

Well, it paid off. I came across a note from OW - she apparently hasn't learned that H leaves things lying around and is not very organized, even if in the letter she tells him not to leave note lying around! (that's how I learned about the A, finding her love notes by accident at around Xmas time). What really surprised me was the major change in the "tone" of her letter. Only a couple months later! Yes, OW loves H, etc. etc. it's more than PA, bla bla... but in addition to that, although she understands, she's basically complaining about having to share him with his family, and also excusing herself for the "scenes" she made! She's obviously not happy with the amount of time he is allotting her, especially if she has left her 27-yr M over him! How dare he (being sarcastic here). I can't believe the "thinking" that goes on here. She's complaining about sharing him with his family! WOW! As if she didn't know he had a family when she got involved with him! OH, pleeasse. If this whole situation wasn't so serious, I could laugh at this. What logic!

Also, the other day, H came home in a really bad mood. He finally told me that he had a really bad day - one particular meeting really did not go well - even got into a shouting match with one of the teachers - with OW's friend (guess what, it was a meeting where OW was part of). Well, I guess it gave OW a chance to get to know my H better! He can be very theatrical at times!

Actually, even my logic makes me laugh right now (if I think about it). I am actually happy about finding a note from the OW? I am definitely living in a different world from what I was living 3-4 months ago!

For now, objective is to continue avoiding LBs, working on myself, and "loving" H from a distance (because his TAKER is controlling him right now - at least where I am concerned).

I am sorry, this is way too long. Bear/bare with me everybody.

Bumped.

Am I being too hopeful? I thought OW's note contained some LBs - making some demands, angry outbursts (but then, at this stage, H may just be willing to justify HER feelings under the circumstances).

Anyway, I may be imagining what I want to, but seeing small signs of H showing mroe affection towards me, whereas before, he didn't because he did not want to lead me on, and be hopeful for a reconciliation.

The waiting out and Plan A is really hard - but it seems to me I am seeing small signs of encouragement.

I know, I should not get my hopes up too high!

Have a good weekend everybody.

Update:

Here are some exchange I had with H:

H: I can't keep living this "two" separate lives thing.
ME: OK
H: If we live under the same roof, I can't just not come home if I want to be with OW.
ME: That's right! You can't!
H: So, can we discuss separating without being aggressive, etc.
ME: It already is. What do you call your decision to cheat and lie to me? It looks being pretty aggressive to me, and I don't recall your wanting to know what I thought then.
H asked about MC. I answered that it would be for if and when we wanted to consider reconciliation, otherwise it would be a waste of money.
H: how about someone to help us with the separation?
ME: You know what we have, how do you want to handle it? Sell everything at a loss and split in two? Each his own way?
H starts to propose possibilities that are not quiet realistic. I thought it best not to point that out and let him figure it out for himself.

It was late. We decided we did not need to decision right there and then, went to sleep.

I think the pressure is on from the OW for H to ACT, but things are as cut and dry on his end. OW has own apartment, has grown children, and has separated. H on the other hand has 2 boys to raise. We can't afford two places (He may personally want to live with her, but definitely does not want to "receive" his boys there) - so, he has a problem - he is not as free as she is.

I keep working hard on PLAN A and no LBs. I think I am doing pretty good. Life at home is not hell, that's for sure, and if "heavy" subject discussions were being avoided before, they are slowly being integrated but discussed in a respectful, loving way. It's H who is actually comforting me through my moments of pain - I am letting him and he is seeing more the hurt created and somehow this is getting us "closer" to each other at the same time. It feels weird - I discuss the A similar to other "intense" work experiences my H has had, that came and have gone. Hopefully, so will he.

Tough times ahead either way.

Your answers sound fine to me.

The bottom line here: If you don't want a divorce and you don't want a separation, then DON'T lift a finger to help him. If he wants those things, then sit on your hands and make him do 100% of the dirty work himself.

You are under NO obligation to help a WS and an OW destroy your family. He wants your blessing so he doesn't have to feel guilty about doing this. DON'T give it to him. You are there to preseve and protect your family, not to help a WS and an OW tear it apart.
Mulan

Luna,

How are you? I have not been able to post in a while. Any updates?

Mulan said it right. Don’t assist him in destroying your family. I would even take it a step further—each time he mentions leaving, being unhappy—use this opportunity to reaffirm your love for him and how much his family loves him and to put things back into perspective (i.e., you are unhappy because you are not living by your own standards in life—see below).

Something like:

WH: I can't keep living this "two" separate lives thing.
You: You don’t have to—work with me and we can learn to fall in love again. I believe you can have the life you want with us—YOUR family. I believe you will find I can meet your needs.
WH: If we live under the same roof, I can't just not come home if I want to be with OW.
ME: That's right! When you want to be with her, instead meet ME somewhere. We can go out for coffee (or whatever) when you are feeling blue and talk about it. I want to learn what is it that she does for you, why did it feel so good to be with her. (This will sting, but maybe it will help to keep these conversations about him). Learn how about the things that I have not been giving you.

Also, a couple of things jumped out at me from your former post, since you are looking for comments. Here goes:

1. WH snapping at son. The next time anything like this happens and WH comes to you to discuss it: First, be kind and open (lost of LU), which you probably were. Second, relate his “treatment of his son” back to him and the present situation.

Of course he snapped at his son—who can be pleasant and happy while considering breaking up a family he loves? Tell him that you know him—he is a good man. How can a good man be happy thinking about leaving a family that still loves him and very much wants him around? Don’t let him blame it on work or anything else—if he is cranky or stressed it is because his actions and his standards are not in line “point finale”!

2. WH walking dog and talking to OW. This is a golden missed opportunity. Why is he going alone? You could be going with him, trying to hold his hand, listening about his day, talking about something he likes (his work) or just being polite and quiet and at his side. In other words—LU deposits. Instead, the OW is depositing them. The less he speaks to her and the more he speaks to you—the BETTER. Take it from a FWS! When he needs to be heard or admired or touched—make it you meeting the need. Walk the dog with him.

3.His family loves you?! This is great news—and OW can’t compete. Why not plan a trip to see his family with the kids! The more he sees your positive place in his life the more he will begin to wake up and realize where the OW doesn’t fit in.

4. More than once now you have mentioned the importance of your husbands work in his life. Since that time, what steps have you taken to be more a part of that world? Can you meet him for lunch?

Whew….that was a long post. Now, any wagers on whether it will actually post. Here goes nothin’.

Thanks Mulan and Ahuman for your reply.

H is talking. He feels he is being egotistical, but nonetheless was hoping for MY permission to move on but knows now that it is normal that I would not be prepared to give it - since I am interested in working on M and our R. He is afraid. He feels family life is "too comfortable". He feels "suffocated". He doesn't appreciate what he has. I deserve more. We can't stay together for the children.

I never know if what I say frustrates him more (ie. LB). I acknowledged his feelings of "being afraid". I suggested that I could see how he can't appreciate what he has because R with OW puts a barrier between us and his family - it's like "he's there but really not there" and I asked me to please "come back" so we can see changes that be made to make him feel better, that sometimes we turn "elsewhere" for answers, only to realize that that is not necessary. He feels he is "suffocating". Again, I suggested it's something we can discuss, ways so he doesn't feel that way, once he is "back": chooses his family over OW. He continues wanting to justify A and all I can say is that if he is "looking" for reasons, he will find many. We shouldn't stay together for the children, but for us and together see how to make things better between us.

Whenever I have a chance, I let him know that I am prepared to work on our R, that it is still an option - not only moving out and be with OW, and us co-parenting.

My gut feeling right now is that on impulse he will move out and "deal with the consequences" after that, including his guilty feelings because he knows he is being egotistical and not caring about anybody else but himself, because he says he is "procrastanating", therefore feels he needs "to act", and now knows/accepts I will not give my "blessing" to any such move (although I cannot stop him from taking it). He is also continually giving examples of couples that have separated, have moved on, like saying: it's normal at one point to want to move on!

He does share his work worrries with me and I try to listen and encourage him, etc. The reason I don't walk the dog with him is because I am also trying not to be too needy and "sticking" to him wherever he goes, but maybe I should sometimes, which I already have. Anyway, if he wants to talk to OW at all costs, he would find other times, for sure!

OW's H called me last week. He was going to contact W to get separation/divorce proceedings going - he needed to move on (they have physically separated - one 1/2 months?? - had already two places to live - in town and country - and grown children!) I suspect this will put more pressure on H to leave. OW's H also confirmed that OW's children are not happy with their mother - they had gone through a similar ordeal when their father had A and left with OW - so, OW has been a BS! - which is why OW feels guilty about doing it to me because she has gone through it herself - but, it seems that both OW and H are ready to sacrifice 'everything' and hurt everybody and anybody to be with each other!

I know it may not be effective, and it may backfire (get H and OW closer), but last week I sent an anonymous note to the director, some staff members and the school's parents group about OW and H re "proper conduct". I know, it will probably be ignored, and it will be dismissed as "rumour", but that's the best I could do about "exposure" at work - it was not a mean note. It's a small group and H and OW really did not want group to know. Even if nothing comes of it, at least I felt I was "doing" something. I know, I know - don't have to say anything, really!

H may not have moved out yet, but I feel the "distance" is getting greater between us, I feel more and more H not really "there" and just going throught the motions. H doesn't want to feel "guilty" about A - in order to do so, he will probably move out, separate, then he won't - that's how I expect him to deal with "guilt".

In the meantime, I keep trying to do what I think is PLAN A: no LBs but trying to be honest, letting it be known that I know we need to make changes in our R and will do so as soon as he puts "distance" with OW (and limit to work-related exchanges). I know H is "thinking things out", I just don't know which direction he is going - yes I do - he wants to be with OW - I can see the "addictive" look in his eyes, I am talking to a WS and not my H, and wonder if H will ever be back.

Sorry for being so long. I am sad, really sad.

Update.

The "anonymous" letter got to destination.

OW and WH are in now in "uncomfortable" zone at work.

L.

Hello everybody,

I don't know why this morning I feel this way, maybe it's inevitable - being on a rollercoaster ride, but I feel very discouraged.

Was I expecting some "positive" signs from WH by now? I probably was, and I guess that's not being realistic: he is "distant" and for me it's never a good sign, don't know what he is really thinking, but under the circumstances I should not be expecting anything more, probably.

I guess my tendancies, to imagine the worst, prepare for the worst, like imagining that WH is planning an "escape" plan with OW, probably are getting to me. He is distant, period. I should try not to assume anything. Deal with whatever when it happens, because otherwise it does make me anxious, thus affecting my behaviour, etc. etc. which is why I am probably here and writing this "to get it out of my system" and hopefully continue as I have: PLAN A and avoiding LBs. WH being "distant" and "absent" at some level also means I am feeling more lonely in the process. I don't have a complice at the moment: it's me, myself and I. WH has checked out: short-term or for good? I don't know, but I also don't want to be in denial..... but, I guess I feel things are just too "quiet" for the life-changing situation that this is!

My biggest challenge I see is dealing with the "uncertainty" of the situation. Will WH be there in one month's time, or will he be gone? Will I be able to "stick it out" or will I not? I guess this is the hardest part for me to "accept": learning to deal with life on a "day by day" basis. I guess I am used to planning ahead, which I can't do anymore - at least, as a family, as there may not be one. I need to switch to "me" and where will I be, what are my personal objectives, and work with what is in my sphere of "control", because I don't know what WH's decision about himself will be. On the other hand, I may be forced to "accept" and deal with a situation that I did not choose - a separation. How to be ready for something if it happens, without contributing to it happening?

You know the saying: you create your worst fear? I don't want to be doing that. So, I act as if.... WH will not leave, and struggling not hear the little voice in me saying: "what if.... but...." which may be attempting to protect me and wants to prepare me, but may only help in "my creating my worst fear".

How to feel "upbeat" when you're not really? It's tough. I guess this is what Dr. Phil means when he says "behave your way out" of something.

I need to challenge my "internal dialogue" and, actually, I need to check: what am I telling myself?:
That I will be devastated if WH leaves. That I won't be able to manage alone. That the pain will be unimaginable. That I will withdraw totally. That I will do into a deep depression, but nobody will be there for me, and so how will I do what I need to do?

I already feel so all alone!

Anyway, bye, for now.

Yeah! Keep up the exposure Luna! Shove them into the light. Make them take an HONEST look at the choices they are making.

Where else can you expose? Don't stop now. Keep it up or you will never get to a real Plan A. (I say this because so long as WH is still in contact with OW, you are in a sort of pre-plan A).

How did you learn that the note reached the school? Were they confronted? Did WH tell you? Does he know you did it?
Way to go. Keep it up. It is the only way (short of Plan B) that WH will be shaken from the fairy tale...take it from someone who has been there!

As to feeling down, sorry you are sad. Sounds trivial now, but you WILL get through this and you WILL be a stronger person at the end of it all.

Hi Ahuman,

Quote:----------------------------------------------------
How did you learn that the note reached the school? Were they confronted? Did WH tell you? Does he know you did it?
Way to go. Keep it up. It is the only way (short of Plan B) that WH will be shaken from the fairy tale...take it from someone who has been there!
----------------------------------------------------------

...because he told me. No, he doesn't know it's me... it was anonymous. Yes, WH and OW are shaken. It looks like there are "clans" in the school, some unhealthy working relationships. Not knowing who sent the letter, increased some "paranoid" attitude. There is some "damage control" being done because it was anonymous, but it's like the judge telling the jury "don't consider what has just been said". Basically, WH and OW cannot deny it, and I guess people will now be "looking" at the two and their interactions more closely - and I guess that can't be too comfortable. They will also have to deal with the question of "what are people thinking of their actions": an A that "nobody" was supposed ever know about, but WH says it developped into more than a PA, that he wasn't expecting to, but with the OW, he has found his 'soulmate' (and the last I heard he wants to leave to be free to be with her). My biggest worry is if it is what people call an "exist affair". Does WH just want to leave the M and is creating barriers between us, and intimacy with OW in order to be able to leave M? Again, I really don't think it's helpful for me to be thinking the worst all the time.

Anyway, people at the school now know about it. It is where our son goes to school. I will also have to face people knowing they know (but at least I know they know). This will either backfire and move WH and OW to feel "us against the world", or create a distance. I know they are at least "talking" outside the workplace because I check WH's cell phone history.


quote:---------------------------------------------------
Way to go. Keep it up. It is the only way (short of Plan B) that WH will be shaken from the fairy tale...take it from someone who has been there!
----------------------------------------------------------

Ahuman: For you, did it start as a PA? Did it develop into a PA/EA? Did you feel you had found your "soulmate"? How were you able to let go (and here I am assuming you did!)?

WH keeps telling me that if this was only a PA, he would have an easier time letting go of it, but because it's also an EA, has found "soulmate" therefore he wants out of M and go for this "new love" as opposed to working on a "broken one".

WH is being "faithful" to OW and we literally only share our bed (and I wouldn't want it otherwise either). At times I can say I can "touch" the thick wall between us (physically and emotionally).

THanks for being there.