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Update.

WH decided before going back to school for presentation tonight, to have a R discussion. Nothing I have not already heard. WH's A with OW is unique: he is 'in love' and sees himself with her in the future. Does not want to 'come back' to M. I basically listened to WH, said I did not deny his feelings for OW, but that repeated the fact that I was prepared to work on our M and make changes, were he to put distance with OW and give us a chance. I said that when he chose to have an A, I did not have a say in it, and I really wanted a chance for us to work on our M if he would allow it, by removing 'barrier' of A with OW. WH is unhappy and uncomfortable continuing as is, wants to be at a 'clear' place, in love with OW, it's more than a 'passing' fling.

The one thing I am not happy about is when WH was about to leave I asked him not 'to let me down' - which is needy, clingy, and probably a big LB.

Sorry, everybody, I am in a sort of a panic because I did not see 'discussion' coming, and I am really feeling all upside down now.

HELP. I really don't know what to do, or what to say to him now. I am repeating myself.

GOD, I really want this nightmare to finish.

I got the boys eating in the kitchen, and I want to do is CRY, CRY, CRY, but I have got to hold off to later, when the boys have gone to bed.

I will check in for messages. Please, let me at least know that you are 'reading' me, even if you don't have anything to suggest. I would really appreciate it.

I feel so down.

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I just need to 'vent'! I don't feel good. I really don't. I am just write to write. The pain and panic have gotten the better of me. I am just buying time. Be ready to read nonsense. Just someone trying to desperately get by the 'minutes' that feel so long of 'gut pain'. These are the times I ask myself if LIFE is really worth it all. I 'talk' here and I talk to myself just to get past this unbearable pain I feel. I don't even know what to write, I just know that I need to keep writing - keep busy - to pass the moment - I know it's just a moment - a very long moment - I am sorry to all of you that read me and can't make any sense. This pain I am feeling doesn't make sense to me. How could I gotten myself in this situation? I really don't deserve it. I really don't. I really really don't. Yet, I am in it, and I need to figure out how to get out of the 'hole' I am in. The 'hole' that doesn't seem to have an end to it. I can't even see the screen anymore. I am crying because I hurt so badly. I am sorry everybody. I feel like a weak weak weak boneless person who can't stand up for herself. That's not a reason to hurt that much. Is it?

I got to go and take care of the kids. They need right now. I need to pull myself together. I am pulling myself together. This LIFE really isn't worth it sometimes. REALLY. I am tired. I am really tired.

I am sorry, I am really sorry that you all have to see me in this state. It is where I am. I am sorry.

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Please, I could use a 'life' sign from the board.
L.

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***WH's A with OW is unique: he is 'in love' and sees himself with her in the future. Does not want to 'come back' to M.***

Luna - when your WH is saying stuff like this, and you are in as much pain as you are -- well, that's what Plan B is for.

Please consider it. It's better than Plan D (Divorce) and better than the kind of suffering you are enduring now. You will get plenty of help and support here.

Please read up on it.
Mulan


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I may need to go to PLAN B, but I don't think I can do it. At least that's how I feel right now.

Right now I would really just like to die and not have anything to deal with. Go to sleep and never wake up. I know I should not have these thoughts, which is why I am putting them out there. So I can get past them.

WH wants to talk about arrangements to separate, and I really really don't, but I guess I don't have a choice. WH seems sure that A is not a passing fling, and is projecting himself into the future with OW - would OW let go of 27-year marriage if it wasn't serious. So, that makes A OK. I guess OW is waiting for WH to prove his love for her and break up his family, and WH is determined to hold his end of the bargain.

There doesn't seem much hope at this time for our M to survive.

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***I may need to go to PLAN B, but I don't think I can do it. At least that's how I feel right now.***

It scares everybody -- until they try it. Then, after just a couple of days, the sense of peace and sense of control is the greatest relief you can imagine.

**Right now I would really just like to die and not have anything to deal with. Go to sleep and never wake up. I know I should not have these thoughts, which is why I am putting them out there. So I can get past them.***

Luna, many of us have been there too. I am still there sometimes myself. I know you don't really want to do such a thing -- you just want the pain to stop. There's a difference.

***WH wants to talk about arrangements to separate, and I really really don't, but I guess I don't have a choice.***

Sure you have a choice. If he wants to separate, he does not need your help or permission to do so. He just wants your "blessing" so he doesn't have to feel guilty about destroying the family through his own selfishness. Tell him if he wants to leave, he is free to do so, but he will have to do ALL of it himself. He can't make you help him any more than you can stop him from leaving.

***WH seems sure that A is not a passing fling, and is projecting himself into the future with OW - would OW let go of 27-year marriage if it wasn't serious. So, that makes A OK. I guess OW is waiting for WH to prove his love for her and break up his family, and WH is determined to hold his end of the bargain.***

Blah blah blah Affair blah blah OW blah blah blah I'm leaving blah blah let's bully Lunamare blah blah blah we think we're special blah blah blah.

Luna, this is nothing but crap and you know it. Don't buy it. It's nothing but the lies WH tells himself to make it okay to abandon his family. If you try to make sense out of nonsense, you'll go crazy.

Don't try to reason with WH. It's a waste of time. Wait for H to show up.

***There doesn't seem much hope at this time for our M to survive.***

It isn't going to end this minute. Really, it's not. You don't have to worry about this right now, strange as that might sound. Just take it one day at a time. Don't panic over things that haven't happened yet. There is still much you can do.

Like Plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mulan


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Luna,

Sorry I have to disagree with Mulan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />(hugs, Mulan). I am more for what Ahuman is gently trying to tell you.

You need to get some intestinal fortitude girl. I would have gone to that event, looking my best, and been who I have been, my H's wife. You already have a place and you still want it, so you should have been there. ow or no ow.

You have had a chance to fight for your marriage. You chose not to. Your place has been with your WS. You have gone to these events before. You already have a place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I should have posted to you. I fought for my M. My FWS is a musician, a good one at that. I showed up at 'work', a gig FWS had with ow. I wasn't going down easy. I did NOT cause a scene, however, I made my prescence known. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I would have gone the first night, looking like a million dollars, talked to all the people I knew, and been wonderful, not mentioning a thing, except how talented and wonderful I thought my WS was, with no mention of ow.

You know your WS better than ow does. YOU have a better handle on what WS needs are than ow. Hello, is anyone home??? Don't mean that in a bad way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't go down easy. That does not mean you have to LB. But you sure could be more aggressive on saving your marriage. If you want to be married, do something girl!!!!!

Am praying for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

PS. Could all you sages help this girl out? She needs some help and encouragement!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


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Luna,
most of the BSs here have gone thru what you are going thru now. We´re here because we believe or ant to believe in MB principles. In my case I am 4 months into plan B. And it was a choice I made when I was exactly in your situaion because I couldn´t find aother way to survive this whole mess. There is no better all around alternative. You are destroying yourself and enabling the affair at the same time. REMOVE yourself and not only will you give yourself a time to heal but you will no longer be helping tha affair partners.

You will feel better once you have made the decision. You will have control of yourself again.

The pain will still be there but won´t be getting worse, it will be getting better. I can´t believe how much stronger I am at 4 months.

Nearly everyone here has been telling you to go to plan B for a long time now. Your own solution has only made things worse. Why not give plan B a chance?


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Luna

First off, don't panic just because he says he is in love. ALL non-serial WS think they are in love. (It is easy to think that when you don't LIVE with the person, eh?)

Second, EVEN IF WH leaves, you will not die, your children will not die. Please don't panic as if everything is all lost.

HOWEVER, please consider this:

*you are trying to convince your WH that you can change and your M can change, yet you are still the nice, accepting Luna you have always been. What has changed? He is still in charge of the direction your M is taking.

Wanna know what straightened my head in WS land--my BS took charge. Stood for honesty, commitment---and didn't budge a nudge on those two.

You are not being "clingy" by standing your ground and telling your WH how things are going to be. You might be surprised how he takes your assertiveness.

You are not somehow taking away his choice in the matter either--he doesn't even know what choice he is making at this point.

Believe me, when he is thinking of leaving or separating--he is not REALLY thinking of leaving you. He imagines you will be their to fulfill his family needs and other too. He is only thinking of acceptably adding OW into your lives.

Take charge, or stay paralized by pain.

Here is a hug. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hang in there. And keep posting.

Last edited by Ahuman; 05/06/05 09:05 AM.

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How are you doing today?


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Thanks Ahuman,

quote:-------------------------------------------------First off, don't panic just because he says he is in love. ALL non-serial WS think they are in love. (It is easy to think that when you don't LIVE with the person, eh?)

Second, EVEN IF WH leaves, you will not die, your children will not die. Please don't panic as if everything is all lost.
---------------------------------------------------------

I know, I panic. I need to learn to 'babble' back because WH is itching to make a move. I need to breath deeply and try not to react, but think about my answers.

WH is going to want to 'discuss' separation arrangements and I am not quite sure how I should handle it. I can't keep 'repeating' myself and 'block' all the time - I see it as I big LB.

I don't want to go into PLAN B, because I am not I can do it.

I will need to get ready for some 'hard' discussions, I will need to get ready to call his 'bluffs'.

Example of discussions:

WH: This is not just a short term flig. I am in love with OW, she let go of a 27-year marriage for us. With time, I am getting closer to her. I cannot deny how I feel about her.

ME: I am not asking you to deny how you feel about her. (and I thought afterwards of asking: do you feel responsible for her breaking up her 27-year marriage? - which I think he does)

WH says: I am ready to let everything go.

ME: Can I do that too?

WH: We need to make arrangements for the kids, one week you one week me.

ME: I don't see myself taking care of the kids by myself one week, and go without seeing them for a week.

WH: we will need to discuss soon what we will do.

ME: OK, I will listen to you.

It't getting harder.

quote:-----------------------------------------------
you are trying to convince your WH that you can change and your M can change, yet you are still the nice, accepting Luna you have always been. What has changed? He is still in charge of the direction your M is taking.
-----------------------------------------------------

Yes, WH is in charge, other than not being a 'willing' partner in discussions of separation, reminding him that working on our M is a definitive option, I am pretty well 'enabling' A.

quote:--------------------------------------------
Wanna know what straightened my head in WS land--my BS took charge. Stood for honesty, commitment---and didn't budge a nudge on those two.
---------------------------------------------------

Ahuman, I don't suppose you can give me some examples of these, i.e. standing up for honesty, committmemt. What could I say to WH when he wants to discuss separation arrangement? Can't just play death ear, can't just repeat what my position is - or maybe I can? If I do, then I have to accept whatever WH does, because I didn't cooperate. Won't I be in a worst situation? I won't have a say at all then. WH will insist that I didn't want to cooperate. WH may come up with an arrangement that I may really really not like - and I will be stuck with it. I guess I need to think about some of the worst scenarios and see I could act/answer:

Example:

WH: I want to take a weekend off and spend it with OW

WH: I am not coming home to sleep tonight

WH: I am leaving and going off to live with OW

WH: I put the house for sale

WH: I will go and live at our cottage (one hour away from city)

WH: I am in love, and there is really nothing else I can do.

I think that's what I will do. Please let me have your comments about how I could answer some of these questions? I think that's the best I can do. Be ready to not be 'thrown off'. I am already doing better about telling myself that what WH says is not what H would say, and try not be surprised.

quote:--------------------------------------------
You are not being "clingy" by standing your ground and telling your WH how things are going to be. You might be surprised how he takes your assertiveness.

You are not somehow taking away his choice in the matter either--he doesn't even know what choice he is making at this point.
----------------------------------------------------------

You're right. I really should be doing more of it. Have WH face the 'reality'. Right now I think WH wants what he wants but at the same time he doesn't want to have too many negative effects, which is impossible. I people say: you can't be a little pregnant!


quote:----------------------------------------------------
Believe me, when he is thinking of leaving or separating--he is not REALLY thinking of leaving you. He imagines you will be their to fulfill his family needs and other too. He is only thinking of acceptably adding OW into your lives.
----------------------------------------------------------
Yes, that's what he would like to do. He wants me to be as much as a 'willing party' as possible, and WH is having a little of hard time with this. But then, again, if he has to do without it, he will.

quote:-------------------------------------------------
Take charge, or stay paralized by pain.
--------------------------------------------------------

I really would like to know a little more about what you mean by 'take charge' - short of PLAN B. I am really not there. I think I can call his bluff if he will do it if WH says he is leaving. I already know what being 'paralized by pain' is.

I suggested to WH a few days without the kids at the cottage, just the two of us, no hats: no dad, no mom, no lover, nothing - just friends.

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Hi Luna,

I don't have a lot of time but here are a few suggestions and I will get back later with some more.

If you ever just feel stunned and don't know what to say.

Say: Who are you? You don't sound like my H--he believed in our family-he was a responsible man that kept his commitments even when the going got rough. Would you please bring him back--He would not give up on us like this and I really miss him.

Example responses:

WH: I want to take a weekend off and spend it with OW

Gee, that sounds nice. I would like to take a WEEK off and go on a vacation from MY responsibilities too. But I cant--I have a family to take care of.
(Commitment to family)

WH: I am not coming home to sleep tonight

Well, this is not a hotel where people can just come make a few kids and then take off when the going gets rough. You have responsibilities here--we have created a family. We are waiting for you.

Has he ever NOT come home?

WH: I am leaving and going off to live with OW

Okay. I am not your keeper. If you want to go, then go and while your out--see if you can find my H-- I really need and miss him and so do the boys.

WH: I put the house for sale

Like hell you did. If you want to leave this family, go. But I am not going to uproot the boys and sell our family home just because you aren't having fun with us anymore.

WH: I will go and live at our cottage (one hour away from city

Running away is not the answer. This family is not a vacation spot that you visit once in awhile.

WH: I am in love, and there is really nothing else I can do.

Just because she makes you feel wonderful doesn't mean you should destroy your boys lives and give up on a M of 20 years.

Nothing you really say is going to change his mind. It is just your actions--that is--your NOT budging out of the house or moving the boys.

Oh, and as to that, how selfish of him to just assume its okay to tote the boys around like that--don't fall for it.

The best thing for your boys is stability--let him leave if he must--but you stay in that house and YOU keep the boys.


More later....


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Oh, by take charge--I mean act as head of household. Take the decision making out of his hands. Your family needs a responsible adult calling the shots--and you are all its got!

Just think of him as an adolescent and you are the head of the family--he is like one of your kids. When he is making the statements above--he is looking for your permission (this is a sick way of justifying his actions in his mind)--dont give it to him.

If he says, I will go live at the cottage. Just say. No.

If he asks why, say--it isn't the right thing to do.

If he asks you what is the right thing--say---to work on our marriage and family.

Can he read in english?


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Update.

Had a big R talk. Big LBs. WH sees himself as Romeo and Juliette. Them against the world.

It was really bad. I think a lot of damage was done.

My panicky feelings are all back and more. I am trembling. I can't focus.

I just want to find a hole and stay in it.

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Nobody can help you except yourself. Help yourself, please.


cc

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Luna,

What are you so afraid of?


Ahuman FWW (35)
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Quote
Update.

Had a big R talk. Big LBs. WH sees himself as Romeo and Juliette. Them against the world.

It was really bad. I think a lot of damage was done.

My panicky feelings are all back and more. I am trembling. I can't focus.

I just want to find a hole and stay in it.

this is exactly what happends when .....

you don't have a plan

you don't follow a plan

you ride this using only your emotions and not a PLAN

YOU need to call Harleys .... because you have NO PLAN and you need a pro to guide you ....

Nothing will change until you change your approach to this problem. That's for sure.

Pep

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You are all right.

I am falling apart right now. Before I THOUGHT I had some clear objectives to follow.

My state of mind right now proves the contrary.

WH wants to set a date when he will leave the house. He wants to sit the kids down and tell them.

ME? I am totally devastated. Paralyzed.

AHUMAN - quote:------------------------------------------
What are you so afraid of?
---------------------------------------------------------
That M is over. That WH is/will leave. Remember, I have spent my last 20 years as a couple. I guess I am afraid of being and going through life alone and it's not what I want/wanted. I still love my H. I am afraid of all the pain that awaits me due to a broken heart. I am afraid of spiraling down into a deep depression. I am afraid of not wanting to live anymore - just to stop the pain.

Pepperband - quote:---------------------------------------

this is exactly what happends when .....

you don't have a plan

you don't follow a plan

you ride this using only your emotions and not a PLAN

YOU need to call Harleys .... because you have NO PLAN and you need a pro to guide you ....

Nothing will change until you change your approach to this problem.
----------------------------------------------------------

I think my biggest challenge is to 'detach'. WH says he loves the OW and intends to leave and I 'react'. That's what I think I need to be doing but can't seem to do it.

When WH wants to set a date? What should I be saying?
WH is very convincing it's what he really wants - I can't stop him. I can keep telling him until I am blue in the face that there is another option to consider: I recognized I contributed to the situation we are in, that I apologize and regret but that I am willing to work on M once he has put 'distance' in A with OW (they work at the same school). What does one say when WH flatly says: NO, I don't want to. That would be fine if I did, but I don't want to give up the OW. I love her and I intend to go and be with her.

PLAN B is going to be hard to put in place. There are too many things to 'discuss' and decide together, and would not be able to go 'completely dark' as is recommended for it to be effective. Or, is it just me? Can't imagine myself removing myself from 'him'? Because I do love him, so, this would mean, I would be going into withdrawal?

I am in soo much pain I can't believe it. I can't focus or concentrate.

As I said before, if I ask myself what would I want to do now? Curl up in a hole and never come out. Am I in a state of shock? Is this want being 'in shock' feels like?

It's been 4 months since I found out. I am getting tired. Doing PLAN A (be the giver, and calm the taker), exposing A to certain number of people, and without LBs, trying to communicate to WH that willing to work on marriage once A ends.

Part of me feels that even if I want to do more, I don't know if I can - but GOD I wish I had it in me to be stronger and be able to do more.

Anyway - right now I feel there is no hope. I hear my WH: don't worry, one day you will also agree that separating was probably the best thing for us to do. If that's how he feels, that's how he feels.

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I have another problem. I feel completely off balanced. WH, sure of his choice, appears to be more capable of being in charge.

Given my condition, I don't feel up to taking care of the boys if he leaves. The other option is that I leave and he takes care of the boys. I am considering this option. Take a few weeks and get distance from WH while he takes care of the boys and I take a break, because I have a hard time concentrating. I can't see WH leaving and my being capable of managing alone with the boys, go to work, and be in this state of mind where I can't even focus, at least not at beginning of separation.

He wants things 'to start moving forward'. Inspite of it all, WH is making himself available and I can 'count on him' (for everything except letting go of A). I learned that one of the EN OW filled is that his perception of OW is that she totally accepted him, didn't feel he needed or act or try to be someone else around her. He also feels less 'alone' becauae he refers to her as a 'soulmate' so OW is someone who in an instance recognized that 'loniless' in him - probably because she also felt very lonely. I don't know how I can answer these needs - WH prefers they be answered by OW, but at least I am aware of these needs and how important they are to WH.

What I am writing probably doesn't make much sense, because again, I am eoing it in order to keep 'busy' and try to calm the panicky feelings that I am having even right now. So, I thank those that take the time to read me, even when I don't make much sense.

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Luna,
I don't know if you've seen my thread but I can definitely relate to where you are. Limbo is difficult. Right now I am waiting for WH to leave...again. He left back in March but I let him come home too soon, because I wanted my H and our marriage. (WH came home disguised as H for a while) He lied about contact with OW. I found out contact still continued and told him I could not allow him to treat me that way. The thing that has helped me the most is to make a plan...it really gives you a sense of empowerment....control over your own life.

Ok, so he says he found his "soulmate" (gag). You still need a plan. Worst case scenerio and best case scenerio.
He wants to be accepted..OK, accept that he is a WS in a deep fog and alien's have occupied his brain.

You know the separation is coming...PREPARE yourself, what is your financial plan? What is your plan for managing the boys if you can't do it alone who will support you? (I have found there a ton of people ready and willing to help. Elderly friends of my mother have offered to babysit for free.) If you have not exposed A. DO IT!!!!Why should you help them keep their dirty little secret? You may have not been perfect but nothing you could have done or undone. WH is having the affair. And he doesn't want to be the bad guy..too bad cause he made a REALLY BAD CHOICE, let HIM live with the reality of his choice.

Remember Plan A is not about being a doormat. It about making positive changes that YOU want make to be the lighthouse. YOU and your boys will benefit from those changes even if WH never gets it.

WH may still be father of your childern...the boys have lost their DADDY. Don't lose yourself to the A...the boys really need their MOMMY.

I think I'm going to listen to my own advise, I'm no expert I just wanted to let you know you are not alone. It's Mother's Day gain strength from that!


aka-confused42
BS-45 me
WH-42
DS-14 & DD-12
together 21 yrs, married 18.5yrs
"I love you but not IN love with you" speech 6/3/04
D-Day 2/25/05; WH moved out 3/15/05 & back too soon 3/22/05...He left again 5/8/06
5/25/06 Plan B.....NC letter 6/18/06
Recovery finally began Jan 2007
We are IN love again!!!Sept 2007
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