Luna, don't feel bad about feeling afraid. We ALL feel that way(okay, I sure do.) It is a rotten situation.

I guess what I would really want you to understand is that you keep asking what to do about this separation he's insisting on -- and in my opinion, the answer is, DO NOTHING. Nothing except take care of yourself and your children, and be the best Luna you can be.

You do nothing -- therefore, HE is forced to do it all. HE has to do anything and everything if he wants to move out, get a separation, etc.

Stop worrying about how he will feel if you don't agree to his outrageous requests. Let HIM worry about that. That's HIS problem -- not yours. No matter how mad he gets, AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT IN PHYSICAL DANGER, don't let it get to you. That's what he wants. Don't give him the satisfaction.

The sooner he has to face up to what HE has done *all by himself,* the sooner he will wake up -- if he's going to.

Stop protecting him from the consequences of his actions. Guilt and mess and a divided family are the results of an affair. He thinks he can have an affair while neatly avoiding all of those things -- and in some ways, you think he can, too.

So - just be a broken record when it comes to this "amicable separation." You do not want a separation, but you cannot stop him if *he* wants to move out. That will be 100% *his* decision, not yours. You have already made your decision. You do not want a separation, but you cannot stop him if *he* wants to move out.

Just keep throwing the ball back into his court. You are not going to help him break up the family. He wants you to help him so that he can blame YOU instead of himself for the breakup. "Luna agreed to a separation. She signed off on it. It was her idea as much as mine." Don't think he won't do this, especially if you end up in a child custody battle. Do you really want that?

NO ONE should be forced, pressured or bullied into a marital separation that they don't want. Don't let him force you into pretending to agree to something you really don't agree to.

If he wants this and you don't, make him do ALL of it by himself. If he does move out -- and he might, just to "show you" -- you already know what to do. That's when you go to Plan B. Don't let this frighten you.

Honestly, a full dose of his OW and FULLY experiencing the consequences of his actions *without you to cushion him* would be the best thing that could ever happen to him. It will be a major shock to his system and has the best possible chance of waking him up. Don't deny him the full effect, and don't be afraid of it.
Mulan

Thanks, Mulan.

I guess part of the problem is that I don't know how this would play out 'legally'. If he moves out, he deals with the separation legally, than it feels like I won't have any input, and would have to live with the 'legal' consequences of not cooperating. If I am not involved in the separation paperwork, then will I be limiting myself to 'reacting' to his 'separation agreement'. By not being involved in the 'separation' process, am I not giving 'power away' to WS.

This is all so new to me. I don't have much experience with personal 'legal' matters.

I think I will try to find out what happens 'legally' if he decides to move out and does the paperwork by himself.

Here is another FEAR, Mulan. Financially, we manage because there is two of us working. Actually, it's not a FEAR. It will be reality - like 2+2 is four - financial hardships for both of us (and therefore our boys) would inevitably become part of our separate lives - something both of us had worked hard to avoid, as long as we were a family! WS may be prepared to accept and sacrifice this for 'love', but I will be left by myself, and in financial hardship, but maybe in the end with some 'peace of mind'. But, I am not quite there yet.

Thanks, again, Mulan, for being so attentive to my situation. You deserve a big hug for all your patience with me.

I will keep you up to date.

You are absolutely right to be concerned about the legal and financial side of a separation. I would say that you need to meet with *your own* attorney right away. I have never gone through a legal separation and don't have the faintest idea of what the laws are, either in the various U.S. states or in Canada.

You would be consulting an attorney to *protect yourself and your children* -- NOT to help your WH feel comfortable in his affair and ease him out of your house and into the OW's. There's a big difference.

You should not trust your WH as far as you could throw him right now. Anything he says he will do for you in the separation should be suspect. Why? Because this is the same man who thinks moving out to live with his girlfriend you happily take care of his children is a reasonable arrangment. He is not your H -- he is a WH.

So: Trust an attorney to work out the details of a separation *for you,* not for your WH. I do understand that you may well have to deal with a separation eventually, but that does not mean you have to jump up and make this easy for a WH.

See an attorney on your own so you know exactly how the laws work in the place where you live. But do not initiate anything unless a separation is what you want. If it is, that's fine too -- I just do not want to see anyone pushed into agreeing to something that they do not really want, much less being bullied into doing the dirty work to make it happen.

And then sit back and wait to see if WH really does go out on his own to make all this happen. If he does, you'll be ready, but once he has to do it all on his own and get his hands dirty it may not seem so appealing. Then the OW will start nagging him as to why this hasn't happened yet, and the show will get good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Either way, you will be ready and protected.

(hey, somebody else jump in here too, would ya?)
Mulan

lunamare,

So how was the weekend?

Hope you have returned stronger and that you have decided NOT to enable your WS to have his affair and destroy his marriage and family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I agree with Mulan. Do not let your WS steamroll over you and just fold. Do not 'cooperate'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> If he wants to move out, let him do it on his own, let him explain to kids, do not help him in this.

Praying for you to gain some strength and intestinal fortitude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Time to fight for your marriage and family.


Love in Christ,
Miss M

Update. Thanks for being there Mulan and Miss M.

I am back from a "family" visit to my parents. I would say, under the circumstances, it went well.

WH spoke to me about his talk with Steve H. Basically, he thought SH tried to make him feel guilty, suggested he read a book on kids & divorce, did not think SH listened to him but tried to convince him to make decisions based on "logic" rather than feelings.

I made it clear to WH that I did not want to separate and should he want I was prepared to work on reconciliation. His reply: if it means putting OW on "backburner" the answer was "no": can't someone leave a M if one is extremely unhappy? WH now realizes that if HE wants to move and separate that's what the boys will be told.

So, I now expect him to "plan" his moving out on his own (since I said I would not collaborate), is getting ready to be judged as "the bad guy for leaving him family", and when plan in place he will let me know and move out because he says he is not prepared to "live like this" for long. Then I guess I will have no choice but to work out a separation agreement with WH.

Both WH and I are having a hard time sleeping. The "situation" is getting harder and harder to live on a "daily" basis. WH will be going out of town for work for 4 days. The anxiety is getting to my stomach.

The whole thing is very very sad and very very painful.

Lived this way, life is very hard. It's not what I am used to.

Thanks.

Right now, I am not sure what I should do other than continue PLAN A (no LBs) until I can't do it anymore.

Plan A does NOT mean you are not honest with him.

It does not mean you walk around on eggshells telling him what he wants to hear.

Never forget that.

If he does move out -- and he might, because now he has to "prove" it's the right thing to do -- be prepared to go immediately to Plan B. He won't be expecting that.

What plans have you made to go to Plan B, and to deal with his reaction to it? You need to have this ready. At the very least, it will give you a lifeboat to climb into if/when he goes ahead with his harebrained scheme.
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

WH, when he does, plans to move out "on his own". If I can manage it, I thought of continuing with PLAN A (since I don't think I can do PLAN B), and also we will need to work "logistics" of common business affairs and responsibilities and consult re kids at the early stages of him moving out (so, not being able to go completely dark, it may be better not to even try). Also, because I am not just trying to make excuses, when WH moves out, since now I don't know when he will do that, I expect to be in shock even though I would like to think I will be brave. I think to do PLAN B you need to be at a place where you feel strong and are strong, which right now, I don't think I am or will be. Don't think it's a good idea to try and be something you're not sure you can be or do. I do care about my M, I just don't know if I have the courage or strength, and can't see myself doing PLAN B right now. I am getting tired. I am also wondering how much should I fight for M if it's something WH really doesn't want. I am antagonising him right now as it is by being 'honest', because bottom line, he's not hearing what he wants to hear. WH very very distant - you can see the "plotting" going on in his mind. WH's tie with OW seems to be really really strong - WH is prepared to "sacrifice" everything to be with OW. No, I am not trying to make excuses for him, but it is the reality I am living right now. Even though I know its blah, blah, blah.

Anyway, this must feel like a sad post. I sure feel sad. And if this is a rollercoast ride, this is the part where I feel like "throwing in the towel".

I am used to working with H for a "common goal", and so it makes this "lonely battle" much harder for me to do.

But what WOULD I do if I couldn't come to the board to just be able to say how I feel, vent, get some feedback?

Thanks to those that read and write to me. I need to keep reminding you all how grateful I am for your being there. I always take your suggestions seriously, even though often I don't think I have what it takes to consider them or go "through with them". Please don't let that discourage you. Keep doing what you need to do and say. I can't believe it myself that I am still "here" five months after D-day. So, you never know!

It's all so sad because I do think, inspite of our different EN, all we just want is some "love" & "respect" & "acceptance", and yet, we somehow manage to "hurt" each other so much.

I am definitely "down" today. Maybe it's the effort I had to put out for the weekend visit and am just now feeling the "drain".

I thank you again, Mulan, for being particularly attentive to me. I really appreciate it.

I think this is an especially bad idea.

Are you going for the world's record of conflict avoiding?

If he moves out, and you do not respond in such a way that shows him by your ACTIONS that this is not how you choose to spend your life .... waiting to be chosen .... then you will indeed continue to wait.

If you Plan A when seriously disrespected, you will not gain respect.

But, I think that is not what you are looking for, respect. I think you are looking for validation.

Try seeking respect instead.

Love without respect is usually abusive in some way.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for posting Pep. I very much respect your opinion. The problem is with ME.

Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------
"WH, when he does, plans to move out "on his own". If I can manage it, I thought of continuing with PLAN A "

I think this is an especially bad idea.
-----------------------------------------------------------

This means PLAN B for you. PLAN A at this point would means "giving up" the fight.

The problem I have with PLAN B is: I can't see how I can work out the logistics of "going dark" when we will need to communicate about "details" both family and business; I don't see myself as being "emotionally" in control the day he announces and moves out - PLAN B is a tough gig. I may WANT to do it, but don't know if I got what it takes! And if I don't, then I guess it means accepting separation!

quote:---------------------------------------------------
Are you going for the world's record of conflict avoiding?

If he moves out, and you do not respond in such a way that shows him by your ACTIONS that this is not how you choose to spend your life .... waiting to be chosen .... then you will indeed continue to wait.
----------------------------------------------------------

Pep, I imagine WH telling me - I know you did not "choose" this situation, but asks me only to "accept it" and "work with him" only for the sake of the kids - and I am having a hard time saying "no" to this offer for whatever reason, I guess it means I would be slowing giving up on fighting for M.

I am having a hard time deciding if I am just avoiding a "conflict", or I don't see what will be gained by choosing to have a "conflict" right now. I can't imagine not fighting for M just to avoid a conflict! Now that would be a shame. It is true, though, if I can avoid conflicts, I will.

Also, I don't think I am "getting" PLAN B, because I somehow see PLAN B, with WH so set on moving out right now, that it would make "his" life easier and better spent in fantasyland with OW, with no BS in the picture, and only extremely hard for ME to live through (because I would be going through a withdrawl of H). Deep down, I think I am also resisting PLAN B because I identify it as "the end of any possibility of recovery of M".


quote:---------------------------------------------------
If you Plan A when seriously disrespected, you will not gain respect.

But, I think that is not what you are looking for, respect. I think you are looking for validation.

Try seeking respect

Love without respect is usually abusive in some way.
----------------------------------------------------------

Please, Pep, can you explain. I am not sure I understand what you mean here.

If I were to be really honest right now, if it weren't for the kids and all my fears, I would accept a separation and never see WH again, because the person I love was what WH was before: my H. I have a sick feeling to my stomach about the possibility of needing to work with WH in the future (not my H) for the sake of the kids, because I do not even "like" WH seeing what he is doing. What keeps me going is the "memory" of my H, and could he ever be back some day!

I reread myself. Not happy with myself. I will say it again - right now I "feel" like giving up, and by saying so, I am so hoping that I will move "on" to whatever I need to be doing. It's not a good feeling when you feel you are in a "rut". I feel I am losing a lot of self-respect and self-confidence as each day goes by.

I just thought PLAN A could be considered when separated. I thought PLAN B was for when BS had had enough of PLAN A.
I am "totally" not getting it, I guess, as would say DR. Phil.

The "down" mood continues today, because I don't feel "worthy" right now.

Luna - do you really think "throwing in the towel" would be easier than Plan B?

You fear that Plan B will "enable" the affair. Everyone is afraid of that until they try it. What really happens is that the WS suddenly finds himself cut off from his family -- the one he *thinks* he doesn't need or want but still takes for granted -- and is cast adrift with no one for company but another liar and cheater like himself.

What happens is:

The BS gets a sense of peace and control.
The WS gets shown exactly what he's giving up and what he's going to be stuck with.

Please read up on Plan B in the "Articles" section of the website, and look for threads on the forum about it.

The only regret I've ever heard any BS express about Plan B was, "I wish I'd done it sooner."
Mulan

Thanks Mulan,

I believe you all. I will try and "visualize myself" in PLAN B. I need to do anything and everything that will help me see myself IN IT, or else I won't be able to do it. I need to prepare myself to do it when WH's "answer" comes by WH physically moving out of house. I have a couple of weeks at least. I know because of work committments he would not be able to do it before. I also need to find out, and this I have been procrastinating too, how the "laws" play out in case of separation. How will I manage financially by myself - I am so scared to look at the "figures" you cannot imagine!

Also, in some weird way, if I consider PLAN B and getting separation info., I somehow feel I am "enabling" the separation, which logically I know is not true, but I guess "emotionally" that's how I feel.

Right now it feels like the mountain is too high to climb. So many "personal" obstacles to cross before I can become "effective" in any way.

But you're right, Mulan, "throwing in the towel" would not be easier than PLAN B. That's why I am hoping that I get passed this stage.

My only lifeline right now is this board. Please please stand by me even if I am a "lost soul".

Plan B is not enabling the affair. It is protecting yourself and your children emotionally, physically and financially from a situation that you did not ask for. Big difference.

Same goes for getting legal advice about what to do if WH moves out.

Protect yourself! You're the only one who can right now. Don't let yourself down.
Mulan

Thanks Mulan.

P.S. I want to admit it. I am guilty of coming to the board looking for a 'miracle', wanting to know how to get my H back. I need to pinch myself sometimes because I am in such a 'shock' state and can't believe what is happening and cannot cope.

Anyway, I figured you all already know this. Just setting the record straight and that I know it, too, but can't seem to be able to do anything about it.

Update.

WH has left for business for 4 days. Unlike other times, I now do wonder whether or not OW will be joining him at some time during this time. But, I am not sure who said it, BS should expect "contact" in PLAN A with OW, so I guess, should it be confirmed somehow, I should not be surprised. WS at this point does not deny contact with OW, he is actually admitting to it.

I have decided to speak to Steven Harley again for advice.

WH is being "pleasant" but distant. Since taking my position that I do not want to separate but ready to consult MC re reconciliation, and WH has said he does not want to put OW on backburner, and that he will not let the summer pass as is, at this point, I am waiting to see if and when he goes through with "threat", which I do expect him to.

In the meantime, doing PLAN A as best as I can, and feeling like I can't do much more, other than planning for PLAN B, which I hesitate to do because I am not sure how "dark" I can go.

I feel that it is very unlikely that WS will not go through with his plan to leave. I feel it is just a matter of time. I see WS buying time to resolve logistics: find appartment, furnish it, etc. and then feeling justified to "drop the bomb" on me, because he had offered to do it together.

If any of you have anything to suggest to me, please do.

P.S. I have had a few exchanges with OW's H. The last one being his confirming that he and OW moving forward with separation/divorce. He wanted to move on, too difficult to stay in LIMBO stage. He actually agreed and thought there was nothing to be done when cupid hits. Needless to say then that the "pull" for WS to leave is definitely very strong. OW is now available and will no longer be M.

If anything "new" came up, we would be in touch. I am assuming the divorce process is continuing for OW, and most likely putting pressure on WS to "move" as well. Am I doing some wishful thinking that maybe OW maybe reconsidering her divorce, or would I be setting myself up for a "disappointment", or, I am just looking for something to do?

Right now, I am feeling either "numb" from the pain, or this is what "detachment" may feel like. I don't seem to have any "feelings" and everything feels "unreal". It's really weird. It's like: what will be will be and I don't seem to have any say in it. It's like being in a DAZED mode. My explanation is that I have felt so much pain lately that I am "disconnecting" temporarily from my feelings.

Anyway. Will jsut try to focus on my "daily" challenges for now.

Bye.

Update. I am feeling really really low today. You must be getting tired of hearing me say more or else the same thing.

Update. With very little effort, I confirmed a WS "lie". He left a day earlier than needed to for business trip. Just as 2+2=4, I bet I can guess what WS was up to.

This is the first time I actually "know" when WS has met up with OW, there can't be any other explanation, and it makes me sick to my stomach.

Do I confront WS with info. and let him (a) come up with more lies, or (b) not deny it, in which case, I am afraid I might freak out, and do a lot of LBs. So, I don't tell, and what do I do with the hurt and pain this is making me feel? It's easy to say, expect WS to be in contact with OW, it's another thing to actually experience it - and on top of it, I feel like I am "keeping a secret" by knowing and not telling, a "complice" to their game. WS is telling himself: what W doesn't know, won't hurt her, but what happens when she does? How do I stop the "images" of them being together, enjoying themselves.

God, where have my dignity, respect and strength gone? I need to get some relief from all this pain. When will this nightmare end?

This is WS not H, I tell myself. If this is the worst time of your life, people say it will get better. WHEN?

I am sorry. I feel I am just coming here to whine and you all must be sick of it. I am.

I want to get to the end of this pain so I can go on, ACT, but it seems endless and it's paralyzing: like being kicked down and as soon as you get up, you get kicked down, again, and again, and again. THIS IS NO WAY TO LIVE A LIFE!

I am just so broken hearted right now.

Luna, I am so sorry this is happening to you. And you are right -- you need to ACT instead of just sitting and waiting to see what he is going to do. THAT is what is paralyzing you and leaving you feeling so helpless.

So - Stop waiting to see what he's going to do next.

Stop letting the WS control this sideshow and control your life.

I think you have had more than enough.

YOU have the power to remove yourself from his idiocy.

You are absolutly right -- this is no way to live a life.

So stop waiting for HIM to fix it.

TAKE CONTROL

That is what Plan B is about.

Stop waiting. He is going to keep you hanging and waiting forever. You can bet your house on that.

Plan B.

TAKE CONTROL.

I know we've been telling you not to help him with his "amicable separation," but it may well be time to tell him to leave the house until he stops dating his OW.

Plan B is not the same thing. It is not the "amicable separation" your WS thinks he wants.

It is a way for YOU to take control of this outrageous and abusive situation.

Don't let him scare you.

Read up on how others have handled this same situation. I have never actually done this myself, but many others have..

Start a new thread on Plan B and how to go about it in your situation. You will get the answers you need.

You have GOT to take control here or else let this emotional abuse go on and on.

I know it's hard. But the only sane person in this situation is you.

TAKE CONTROL.
Mulan

If you know that contact is still going, you should absolutely let WS know that you're aware of it, and it hurts you that they're still doing this. At least that's my take, I'm not an experienced MB'er like many here, so take my advice with that grain of salt.

When I knew that my wife received an email from the OM that she didn't tell me about, I didn't say anything for two days, but made it very clear to her that I was upset and hurt about something...then we had a major blowout when she realized that I was still checking her email accounts. BUT...it DID lead to the final NC between the two of them too.