That was a good post J...

I've had thoughts like committed's many times in the past. A friend of a friend declared at one point that they were bisexual, and all I could think of at the time was "how's that possible?" I thought "that's an excuse for being promiscuous or unfaithful", but I don't really have any firsthand experience with it, so I should just keep my mouth shut (though I never voiced those thoughts out loud).

Sexuality ISN'T the problem here. But it is a distraction from the important issues, just like any A is.

The issues here I see are anxiety-related. It's hard 2 let go of our fears that something is going on against us behind our backs. But whether it is or isn't, it won't stop (or the fears won't stop eating us alive) until we own them and consciously take control when we feel them creeping back in2 our thoughts.

I'm doing a pretty good job these days keeping my fears of continued contact in check. But I have 2 remain vigilant even now.

I hope dewt won't mind me 2uoting my favorite Peter Gabriel song about fear...:

"Darkness"

"I’m scared of swimming in the sea,
Dark shapes moving under me.
Every fear I swallow makes me small.
Inconsequential things occur,
Alarms are triggered,
Memories stir.

It’s not the way it has to be.

I’m afraid of what I do not know.
I hate being undermined.
I’m afraid I can be devil man
And I’m scared to be divine.
Don’t mess with me my fuse is short.
Beneath this skin these fragments caught.

When I allow it to be,
There’s no control over me.
I have my fears,
But they do not have me.

Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods.
The deeper I go, the darker it gets.
I peer through the window.
Knock at the door.
And the monster I was
So afraid of
Lies curled up on the floor.
Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy.

I cry until I laugh.

I’m afraid of being mothered
With my balls shut in the pen.
I’m afraid of loving women
And I’m scared of loving men.
Flashbacks coming in every night.
Don’t tell me everything’s alright.

When I allow it to be,
It has no control over me.
I own my fear,
So it doesn’t own me.

Walking through the undergrowth... (repeat chorus)"

-ol' 2long

I am glad to see that someone besides me has had thoughts like that (granted, in the past which means that yours have somewhat changed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

So...how does one say that they are bi-sexual (in a marriage) and not have that mean that they are interested in having sex with BOTH male and female. When a person says that they are heterosexual, it means that they have sex with people of the opposite sex...it doesn't mean that they have sex with someone other than there H/W because that person is OF the opposite sex.

But, when a person says that they are bi-sexual, and they are married to someone of the opposite sex, how does that even come into play. UNLESS, it can simply mean that they are "attracted" to both males AND female, and they have chosen to not act on that attraction (not having an affair.

I can understand when it's a hetero-couple, because those hetero-needs can be fulfilled by the H/W. But what about the homosexual needs...or is there really no such distinction?

I'm not trying to start a flame fest...I just need a tutorial I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I feel that a person should be free to end a marriage if their sexual orientation takes awhile to come to light. It is one of those things that would be terribly hard (if not impossible) to POJA.

The same would hold true if a person wanted a gender change... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

JMHO
committed

For me, one who is totally hetero, don't try to understand others whose preference differs from mine. I just accept it in the way I accept and even cherish the differences in all people.

I think it comes down to a love of all people, you love them not only inspite of their differences but because of them.

I do hope Dylan comes to terms with whatever she is going through, because I care and worry about her, as well as Dewt.

Committed I have a little story to share about someone I was asked to train when I worked in a club in Reno.

She was an incredibly beautiful girl, very tall, blond, drop dead gorgeous really. All the men ogled her to death at first, but one friend of mine who was a dealer kept saying to me that her voice was too low, her hands were too big and so on and so forth.

I really couldn't tell and I worked very closely with her for a couple of weeks. Then one day she asked me how I handled all the men who came on to me, did I just give them my number or what did I tell them. Well then I knew she had just become a woman. There was no way she could have gotten through life looking like she did and not knowing how to handle the come-ons from men.

She seemed really naive to me in a lot of ways. Almost like she was way too timid for the kind of business we were in too. She seemed scared in a way.

Unfortunately she got fired because of the turmoil which was starting over her.

I never saw her again after that, but she sure made an impression on me!

weaver,

I accept what people want too. Dewt might "want" a marriage with dylan, but he cannot "expect" one from her if she is a lesbian or wanting sex from a woman. He cannot fulfill that need.

I just think that you cannot expect something from someone when they are unable to give it. As long as she wants sex from a woman there is going to be a problem...imho.

If I was married to a man that decided he was really a woman and wanted to undergo a sex change, I would have the right to remove myself from that marriage without being made to feel guilty...or being coerced into staying because of the "kids"...or the "vows".

I am not saying that is what he is doing. I am saying that her sexual orientation is going to be a factor...it cannot help but be a factor.

committed

Yep Committed, I agree.

But I know that my understanding comes from the map I have of relationships.

I couldn't handle it, I think I would have to bale.

But that is just me, an affair is hard enough to get over. Anything more complicated than that would be too much for me.

Sorry if this was a threadjack Dewt, but it probably is worthy of discussion. Better than just skirting the issue anyway.

[bold]I dunno if that was really wise or the biggest crock. But there ya go.[/bold]

LOL, only time will tell but it did sound good to me.

hang in there bro!

Kids:


My dear friends. I may be asked, by dewt, not 2 post again...

...but this is what I think (may be wrong)

It's far less about the sexual preference than it is about the:

*fear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
*drama <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Shoot me. You'd be doing me a favor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

My sexual preference is that I prefer to be having sex.

As for Dylan's, I just don't think it's worth it to expend so much energy worrying about it right now. Like J said, there are so many other things to work out. And I think that only once those things are worked out will Dylan herself be able to really look at the issue without it being clouded by a million other things.

And 2long, I most certainly won't ask you not to post to me. On the contrary, I feel honored that you do.

dewt

What an... interesting set of things to return to. Okay.... this is my opinion, and my opinion only, regarding being bisexual and how it plays out.

In my world, there are men (cotton candy or sno cones) and women (pizza or lasagna). I like men. I like women. I like them in very different ways and at very different times. My relationships with men have (generally) been much more physical, sexual, and intellectual, while my relationships with women have (generally) been much more emotional.

All in all, I like both. I appreciate both. I have a genuine affection and love for both.

I do not, however, consider it problematic when it comes to finding a life partner. There are men who are able to express and handle emotional subjects. I've been involved with several of them, and know several others. There are sexy, intellectual women (including the one I'm dating).

It seems to me that it is much, much more important to be involved with the person than with whether that person is a male or a female. When I choose to commit to someone, I choose to exclude what, 6 billion people? And when someone who is straight or gay chooses to commit to someone, they already excluded 3 billion so they're only excluding another 3 billion. All in all, when we're talking about numbers that big, only 2Long is going to care about them anyway, and even he will say, "What's a factor of two? Heck, what's an order of magnitude among friends?"

And really, it turns out that about half of all straight men and about half of all lesbians are so freaked out by my willingness to consider the other sex that they're not willing to date me anyway. So I kinda figure my search pool is actually smaller than most.

Anyway....

As to the question of what you do when you are sincerely attracted to and want to have sex with both sexes? Err, well, if you're bisexual with a female partner and want the "feel" of a man, there are always strap-ons. (I really hope I don't get modded for that. I cannot figure out a PG-rated way to say any of this!)

And if you're bisexual with a male partner and want the "feel of a woman, well, think about it. Sexual interactions between women are basically the exact same as sexual interactions between men and women, minus the penis-to-whatever penetration. A man can be taught to focus on those things if you work with him for long enough.

Now, that doesn't deal with the other aspects that make someone female or male. It doesn't give a woman the mildly acrid scent that is so incredibly enticing when a man has it. (Yumm, I love when men smell like that... c'mere, you!) It doesn't give a man the gentle curve of hips and breasts that adolescent estrogen produces in women. There are lots of things that make a man and a woman different.

But there again, there are lots of things that make one person different from another, and for me, none of those particular things override the whole person that I've committed to. Once I've made that choice, then the point of the choice is to get my needs met within the relationship, and there is no physical need of mine that's so strong that I can't figure out how to meet it with whomever I'm with.

Deep breath.

Pause.

Okay, I don't have to give more examples. Because if I do, I'll get modded into next Tuesday.

Does that help at all?

Oh, and, I'm really sorry for the thread-jack, Dewt. It seems to me that you've already got things figured out pretty well on this issue.

It seems to me that you've already got things figured out pretty well on this issue.

LOL, that's cause I'm try-sexual. I picked Dylan as one out of out of like 9 billion...

J

And you were worried about being modded...

I bet you have all the neighbors stopping over for coffee several times a day Just J, just to have you make sense out of things. When you say it, even the most hard to understand things make sense.

I don't know if that's a good or bad thing (lol) but I sure wouldn't mind having someone like you in the neighborhood to keep us all calmed down.

Darn Dewt, this is too sad. I really hoped you and Dylan could work things out, I still do. No advice really, just much love to both of you and a few hundred hugs to the boy.

Deb

Well, my neighbors rarely stop by to ask about infidelity, bisexuality, or competitive sourcing. And outside those areas, well, I know a little, but not as much. (Competitive sourcing is what I do to pay the mortgage.) When they do stop by, it seems mostly to be a chance for them to talk and have someone to listen to them. I don't mind... as long as they don't mind me making supper while I listen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh, and Dewt, yes, I do get modded sometimes. Not usually for the explicit stuff I was talking about here, but for ranting when I shouldn't be. These are very emotional situations, for all of us, and we've all got to watch out for each other.

Hey Deb, good ta see ya.

And J, thanks again for popping in with the speech. I gotta admit I do have kind of a hard time with this topic. Moreso, I guess because I'm bi (only very slightly, more theoretical than practical) and never ever had any hang ups or questions about it. So it's hard for me to understand or sympathize with Dylan's crisis because I just don't see it as a big freaking-out deal. You are what you are, where's the problem?

Now if she turns out to be strictly homosexual (which would be a big surprise to me) well then I'll have some adjustments to make, I suppose. What's the term for the male version of a fag-hag? Anyways, oddly enough, if she was really gay, I don't think I'd have a hard time accepting it at all.

Anyway, I think we're a fair bit away still from addressing this question in any sort of practical way.

Dylan will find her own answers in her own time.

John

You're welcome, Dewt. I think you're saying you have a hard time figuring out what the problem is, rather than that Dylan's AP is a woman? Well, let me reach back into the foggy reaches of time and say this.

When I was first in love with my ex, it was terrfying to me. I remember very distinctly the moment when I realized I was attracted to her. And I remember the long, agonizing weeks and months when I realized that I was not only attracted to her, but deeply in love with her.

I had felt attracted to -- and loved -- another woman in the course of my life. Girl, I suppose, but she'd seemed like a woman to me when she was 21 and I was 19. And I had been badly hurt before when love turned out to be not just one-sided, but the source of a mildly homophobic reaction from the object of my interest.

So in those long weeks and months, I agonized. Was I to lose another close friend, or was I to suffer in silence and never be truly known for what I was -- and for the love I had for my ex.

In the end, the pain became too great, and I chose honesty. I wrote her a letter, one of those pain-filled love letters that only the very young write. (That statement is going to come back to haunt me and I'm going to write more gooey love letters someday. Ah, well.)

I wrote it while she was gone one weekend, and sat with it for many hours as I waited for her to return. When she returned, I don't remember what I said. I handed it to her, and then turned away, tears already falling. I went and sat next to the stereo, ostensibly to put music on. But I just sat and cried while she read it.

I was so utterly bewildered. So frightened of my own emotions, so confused because what I felt and what I had been told I ought to feel my entire life were two entirely different things. I was stepping out into thin air, utterly certain that I was going to fall -- and just as certain that I would die if I held in how I felt for one more second.



There was a motion from the couch she sat. She was folding, carefully, those sheets of paper that I'd written in such pain. There was a pause. Silence. Stillness. And then more motion. She was standing up.

I was frozen, expecting a screaming tongue lashing, expecting her to leave, expecting a thousand things.

Instead, she came to me. She sat down next to me. She put her arms around me and held me very close.

And she said, "I love you, too."

What an awesome moment that must have been. And I can certainly relate to the idea of taking your most vulnerable bits and giving them to someone without being sure of how they will be received...

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't understand the big hooplah about the same sex thing. That moment, had I not known you were bi-sexual and had you not specifically mentioned the gender of your partener, I would have assumed to have been with a guy. It could be either/or... I just don't see the crisis.

I have to admit the first time I was with willingly with another man, it was a pretty freaky experience. (Part of why I did it was to overcome/face a previous bad experience) And ya, I was surprised by the whole thing, but whatever... I went through with it anyways and that was that. And not only did I make my peace, but I learned something new about myself. Where's the crisis? (That was my one and only experience. As it turns out, I'm extremely picky when it comes to men)

Or do you think this has more to do with the OW than sexuality in general. I liked your post, but I think it confused me. I'm all over the place and actually have to get back to work soon.

I'm not trying to be callous about Dylans difficulties with this issue. To be honest, I haven't even had a real talk with her on the subject in some time, so I can't really even say I know how she feels about the subject now. I understand that for some people, this can be a difficult thing to face. I've had enough gay friends and aquaintances and seen their libraries... I know this can be difficult.

But even though I know this, I just still don't get it. To me, preference is preference. We don't ostracize people who prefer seafood to steak. Classical music to Jazz. Sweet to salty. And we don't suddenly have anxiety over discovering we like tea just as much as we like coffee. Why is there suddenly a line drawn when it comes to sex.

Now, if Dylan has suddenly discovered that she doesn't like to be with a man, that is something altogether different and I could certainly understand her freaking out about that. But aside from that, we're right back where we were with 'fixing things' and then taking it from there.

There's a part of me that wonders (because I do this) if this crisis isn't an effort to escape a previous crisis (because I do this too).

I dunno, but I gotta go get some work done.

ttfn,

dewt

just got firefox... just testing....

it is only an awesome moment if you are not already in a committed relationship with someone.....

Dewt doesnt see the crisis...and to me, it is a center point...my won crisis...crisis of self...terrifying...world-altering and earth shattering (look at our family)...but mostly terrifying...

my moment was not awesome.

giving over that part of you that says "I know this isn't the norm, but I have these feelings, and I have NO idea what to do with them".....is the 2nd scariest thing...the first being saying those words to your Husband....

ther's so much fear and self-loathing and guilt, remorse, regret...despair, sheer terror, disbelief, a strange look back at your life, trying to see if there were any 'hints' along the way...and the sudden terror and fear whrn your brain scan reveals them...a strange kind of mental connect-the-dots...

this thread has grown too fast for me to address everythign and or everyone...so I read through it and jotted some notes down...


In this thread, as well as over at SYMC, it has been pointed out that we are bonded, that something holds us together...many people her in real life have mentioned that over the past decade....

what if what holds us together is fear?


fear of a life without the safety net the other represents...


fear of a life without the familiarity of the other...


fear of 'rocking the boat'....


fear that making a statement along the lines of "Dewt, I love you ut I want to date girls" would lead to a breakdown of all that is positive....the fear that everythign would get 'ugly'...fear that my young son would again be heard spouting homophobic slurs...

what if it is fear of the consequences of change that drives you to effect personal compromise...


what if stark, raving fear of the consequences of making the aforementioned statement drives you to stay where you are...


and a secret fear that Dewt, despite his sexual openess, will hate you...


as for the sexual urges brought up by committed, well, heck....ask Dewt...any sexual urges I have are generally few and far between...this issue has been at the core of may long talks in this relationship....beginning shortly after mini-dewt was born...


I have never been able to understand Dewt's 'driven by his sexual urges' stance....because it not part of my 'makeup', I have trouble comprehending its ultra-importance in Dewts life....

when I feel like I am worrying aobut 27 different things, 10 of them paramount , and am physically, emotionally and mentally drained from that feeling of doing everythign for everyone...well...sexual urges are the LAST thing on my mind...and quite frankly, I feel like I have been in that state for almost a decade....as for dewt's comment about my homosexuality coming out of the blue, well....there's history and precedent set there....dewt and I touched on some of those during many of our talks in December 2003...


I have more to say, but mini-dewt is due back from cubs..


Dylan

((((Dylan))))

It's not fear that keeps you together - you have to know that deep down it's fear that keeps you from giving in to the love you feel for Dewt.

My spiritual center tells me that good cannot bring forth evil, and evil cannot bring forth good - fear being evil, love being good. Fear has kept your hostilities at the ready; have kept you bonded to a relationship that causes you confusion, in spite of your promise of no contact - it has caused you to lie, and violate your own integrity - and therefore, THAT is where you need to look for the roots to uproot and tear out of your life - it keeps the tentacles of pain firmly entrenched in your heart.

I read Job recently - and had a tremendous insight about Job's own responsibility in what happened to him: "The thing I feared the most has come upon me!" Isn't that what you are going through - the thing you feared the most?

Call it your bottom - where you land hard and then begin to move up. But first, leave fear behind in that painful dark place. Leaving that place will bring you more peace than anything you could do.