"But the fact is, right now, and probably for the rest of my life, I can never fully trust myself in this area so, I have a lot of communication ahead of me…"

[color:"blue"]See, this is the part that scares the hell outta me, and many other BS's!!

First Jenn, God bless you girl! {{{{Jenn}}}}

This is such a rough place to be and your initial posts moved me to tears <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> See, I am a BW of a repeat offender, too! I was a MB alumni, had been in (I thought!) a strong recovery for almost 2 yrs just to have my H confess to a full blown EA/PA in Jan 05!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I was just like you... question why? what did I miss? how did this happen again? I felt like my soul had been ripped apart, unbelievable pain and anguish!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
I questioned so much... It was totally out of the blue, like some ripped a rug out frm under my life...AGAIN!

*BUT* there was also some strange comfort having been down this road before, too! When FWH started in w/ the ILher garbage, I immediatley recognized the fog. When he started talking about D and moving on, etc... I nearly rolled my eyes in exasperation!! So typical and I have heard it all before!

FWH & I are currently working on our M with a Christian MC/IC and trying to rebuild. H has not lived in our home for 2 months now, things got so volatile that our C suggested a "therapeutic separation"... I have invited H home but he has yet to do so, choosing to wait until it feels "right".

I do not know if I can trust him again, I want to think so, but am not sure. I commend your H for coming here, but I am also scared for us all who are in this "repeat offender" arena... what if?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You may relate to this feeling of I have of utter frustration within yourself for allowing yourself to be hurt by this man yet again...for knowing you are a strong and beautiful person who willingly put yourself into the position to be harmed emotionally and spiritually by someone that has failed before...all in the name of love!

I told him before "never again" and yet here I am!! The stakes are higher, the doubts deeper and the fears, at times, paralyzing! What a mess! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I know my H is scared that he cannot be faithful, that he will fail me again... these seem to be the leading conerns in his mind right now. He hurt me beyond belief, and hurt himself in the process... I think this is one reason he has not come home for good... I also know that I am unable and unwilling to stick around "forever" for him to figure it out.

At this point I pray that the Lord will lead me to be a better, healthier person. I also pray for H everyday... we have 3 beautiful children who deserve the best that we can give them.

I wish you the best, and JennJsH... if you are certain that you will fail her again, you owe it to her to let her know or let her go, IMHO. [/color]

Hi, JenniJsH.

Thanks for the thoughtful answers. I agree that Steve Harley can help your situation.

Please be careful that your "total honesty" is not brutal.

Quote:
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But the fact is, right now, and probably for the rest of my life, I can never fully trust myself in this area so, I have a lot of communication ahead of me…
===============================

I understand why this statement would scare TNT or any other betrayed spouse. At some point in their lives, preferably in the near future, they want to be able to relax just a bit, and let down their guard on occasion, and actually be able to survive the experience unscathed.

The way to fix that issue is to figure out WHY you are doing what you are doing/what you have done and fix it. You have to understand why it isn't good enough to you to simply notice the pretty lady at the end of the bar, as opposed to feeling like you need to do more with the pretty lady at the end of the bar than simply notice her.

With that in mind, I have another question for you, it will seem odd, and the answer may be really tough on you, and hard for Jenni to hear, so proceed with caution.

When you were involved with the other women, did you engage in banter with them that was disrespectful of your wife?

All the best,
Gimble

Jenn's H - I wish you strength in finding your self control. "Self control" is what I believe your issue is. Sure, there may be psychoANALysis available to determine the root cause, but whatever the cause is, it likely cannot be reversed. So you have to overcome it with discipline. You have to find the extra motivation to do the right things - the existing motivation wasn't enough.

Here's my recommended extra motivation: You fail and Jenn moves on. Three strikes and you're out. Period.

Jenn - this is imperitive for you, IMHO. For YOUR part, you have to adopt this stance and make it crystal clear that there will be NO MORE CHANCES. If you find that you cannot take the stress of always worrying and always holding a hammer over his head, you reserve the right to end it all at any moment.

This is where you both are. Not an enviable place. But I believe it can be successful. Honesty, self control, and the really good feeling that comes with being continuously trustworthy and always free of guilt will set you both free.

Good luck.

WAT

(TNT RN) See, this is the part that scares the hell outta me, and many other BS's!!

[color:"blue"]I know, believe me, it scares me too, it is the major hang up for me right now. Not having the guts to sadle up and make the "forever faithful" proclaimation. All I can do is commit to slaying this dragon one day at a time, first thing in the morning, and only looking at the day in front of me. and that may not be enough for BS but God, and I say his name as a prayer, not an exclaimation, God I hope that this is enough for now.[/color]

(Gimble)When you were involved with the other women, did you engage in banter with them that was disrespectful of your wife?

[color:"blue"]Yes and no, Yes I disclosed things, in the two EA's, private and sensetive details about my "un met needs", because OW (plural) bring those questions into the conversations, I think they're as curious as anybody as to why WSs are out there prowling around. And then the serial OW, I know all WS harbor evil in their actions, but that there are some women and men out there, that are totally given in to sinful sexual desires, that let themselves be used, and use this info, to destroy families and other people, out of anger and spite probably generated from abuse and neglect in their own lives..and there is every degree of WS in between the H/W that gets snared in an affair and those that go out laying traps....and im deviating from the subject... But No, I was never disrespectful of her in an intentionally mean way, I never bad mouthed BS to OW, In fact, in this last scenario, while trying to supress the inappropriatness of our relationship and cultivate a friendship (as Im starting to figure out, this is nearly impossible)w/ OW, I would often speak of my Love for my wife and family, and even praise Jenn for her patience and perservierance with me, with no alterior motives, go figure. But I can see, from reading some of the other posts, that many of these affairs have progressed to the point that WS, so mired in the foulness and blinded by the fog, become intentionally angry and hateful to their BS...and that breaks even my heart.

But to the both of you, I realy appreciate your correspondance w/ me. I think your thoughts and concerns w/ this situation are sincere and absolutely valid. In fact, I almost hesitate to even post, from fear of compounding my hypocracy, but I must believe that scum cant grow in the light of the truth, the exposure in this forum, and that some good will come of this. And lastly, I just saw, WAT's post, thanks again guys..I know your advice to Jenn is based on a first hand experience of the pain she endures, agony I won't pretend to comprehend, and heres the but, I would encourage BSs to continue to push beyond mortal limits and continue to forgive in the hope that reconciliation is still out there, in Gods grace. And I don't utter these words carelessly..I speak them from my own desperation[/color]

Whew! Well I'm back to give my 2 cents.

(((TNT))) Back at you girl. It does stink to be here. You work through this the first time, think you’ve got a good recovery going, you’ve slayed the giant, and boom…. The bottom drops out again. The first time you can just chalk up to a mistake he made, now I know it is a deeper character issue. Those seem a lot harder to know what to do… You don’t have a specific OW or relationship issue to fix. I have not been perfect, but I don’t think these last relationships were about me meeting his needs. I believe so much in MB, but I’ve struggling with that concept now. Granted, I can up the ante in meeting his needs, plan to do so, realize that I haven’t been perfect, but it still leads me asking the question, “Why?” Tnt, I will pray for your relationship as well. We are both struggling with what if again….I do NOT plan on being here again in another 3 years to deal with this again. All that said…God’s grace is sufficient, His love is everlasting and always faithful, and He knows our pain.

To answer WAT’s question re: H’s strength’s… thank you for asking. I do want to say, even though it sounds bizarre…. He is a good husband in all other areas. PLEASE NOTE: The A’s are huge, inexcusable, and more than enough to end a marriage. Terrible, terrible, terrible. And I am very hurt and angry about it. But I want to present a fuller picture of our relationship and life. None of us want to be judged by our worst mistake. He is kind to me in our day to day life, he is a friend who will drop anything to help someone in need, he is hilarious, and has the ability to walk into a room and talk to anyone and make them comfortable. He is an awesome devoted dad, spends time with our family, he is supportive of my hopes and dreams to try anything I want, and has a love for people. His baby boy just quivers all over with excitement when he sees his dad come home in the evenings. He is handsome, a generous and awesome lover. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He and I have worked with children in Africa who are orphaned due to the AIDs crisis, and he has wept with love and empathy for them…. And the best thing is, he would HATE me telling you this and he would never tell you this himself. He is a good man, very misguided in this thing he has allowed to have a real foothold in his life. I am not excusing his affairs, his lack of discipline, and his choices, but as with all people, he is multi-faceted. Yes, I still love him.

Gimble: thank you for concern regarding the honesty. It does hurt at times, but God is giving me strength to bear much more than I could on my own. H hears about it when it hurts….I don’t just say “yes dear” And I’ve made it clear that he must deal with that consequence as well. I just try not to take his head off about it…. Ultimately, painful or not, I’d rather have the honesty than the lies. Healing can take place when there is honesty… I think before I ask to know something…Don’t hesitate to bring up something with him here if you think it is important because of me. Let’s get it all on the table. I can learn from it too. One thing I’ve learned: I am a pretty tough lady. (With God as my armor)

All that said, WAT, it is interesting that you would bring up the three strikes concept. I came to that conclusion last night too. I expressed that to H. I’m still struggling a bit, but right now I feel that I have to give this thing “teeth”. I hate this but I can not be “here” again and he obviously needs a stronger incentive to really figure this thing out. We both strongly do not want our darling son to have parents who are divorced…. But I can not do this again. And you know what…. it’s not even because I can’t take it emotionally (although I don’t know if I could). It’s more of a conscious decision… I won’t live my life this way, looking over my shoulder, wandering if my H is being unfaithful again because I feel that “distance” again. I sense him not being forthright etc. I won’t have my son seeing that as his role model for how to be a man and how to have a marriage. That is not living as “one flesh” and it is not a marriage. It is not about me (yes, I deserve better, I think I’m a good catch, he would be abusing my love etc.) but it is NOT about me. Our marriage is about glorifying God, and that kind of marriage would not be glorifying God anymore. It is an abuse of forgiveness. He has to maintain honesty with me… Attraction that is brought to light is not likely to survive…. It eliminates the fantasy etc.

So… I’m rambling now….

My main concern at this point:
(Sorry dear, I gotta rat you out…Honesty is our new mantra, right?)
He has not contacted Steve or anyone else for counseling… I think he “knows” he should and it is right, but it deeply concerns me that he is not jumping on this more quickly… Again it is a matter of he thinks he has the “head knowledge” that needs to be transferred to actual doing. I think that he thinks counseling will just provide more “head” knowledge…. I think Steve can help…. Can you help me explain to him how?

Thanks so much for your support of me, and of H. It is a big step for him to be here and he was afraid (I think) he would not be welcome here as a WS, and I had told him he would be welcomed and you all would try to help, not blast him, and you have lived up to that. So thank you. Especially thank you for reading our LONG posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Old timer....

You may not be aware of this ... I am VERY harsh about multiple affair behavior.

Do you really want my opinion?

Pep

What was your screen name in 1998? Can you give us that link?

Susan

I went back and read some of your old posts. This is what you said on 5/14/01.



Not a good feeling to be back in this place again also knowing that he did it again right after he told you he never would.

Susan

Pep- yes, with a little fear, I say yes, I want to know what you think. I want different perspectives, both encouraging ones and more challenging too... Be nice.. I know you will. Feeling a little sad this afternoon..

Susan- Yes, I know. Sad, isn't it? I think he meant it at the time too. That's why I think he has no faith in himself this time as he stated in his post. I thought we really had healed (and I think he thought so too) and we were in a good place. We were getting along well, we were close, spending time together, the whole nine yards. I don't know what to say.

Something else H and I have discussed that hasn't been mentioned... This is not relevant to the one-night stand, but the 2nd EA. We did move 600 miles away to end the first intense EA/PA. We still have family there, and once he was there visiting and he saw first OW in Wal-Mart from a distance. This was in Dec. ('04) The first time in the approx 5 years since we left there that he has seen her. He did not talk to her, but he called me afterwards very shaken. He said he thought he was over her, but seeing her (Just that once, not even talking) stirred up a lot of emotion. It scared him enough that he called me shaken, and he also called one of his good guy friends who is like a mentor to him. Just a few weeks later, he met the girl he had the recent EA with.. their only face-to-face meeting. (Correction to my earlier post.. he only saw her once,in a group setting) All their relationship was via email and IM. It obviously can't be overlooked that there might be a connection there?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks.

There is nothing "nice" about multiple affairs. I have been trying to think of somthing "nice" to say, and I can't.

I can only be honest.

You say that you are feeling "sad" ... and that's as you should feel. (angry too) Nothing I say is going to change that.

Here's the deal.

In your mind, imagine that instead of your husband betraying you over and over and over again .... try to imagine that this is a girlfriend we are discussing. This is a girl friend who has lied to you, and has put your well-being at risk knowing how devestated you would be, put your very health at risk as well. She has betrayed your trust over and over and over ..... and she wants you to trust her "one more time" ..... and as your girlfriend begs you for another chance ... you start to wonder ....you start to ask yourself this question ..."Aren't I better than this relationship? Isn't my friendship, my time, my very life more valuable than this?"

If a girlfriend treated you with this much repeated disrespect and disregard for your wellbeing ... how much would you put up with before you made the decision that YOU are putting up with something that you should not put up with?

Just where is your bottom line? Where is the intollerable betrayal?

What is the point of repeated so-called-recoveries?

Is this girlfriend convinced that you have no bottom line of tolerable abuse ? ... Is she aware that you will continue to be her friend no matter how many times she pushes your face into the dirt knowing how painful it is for you .... but doing it anyway .... because it serves her needs to mistreat you.

How much crap would you put up with if this were a girlfriend?

Pep

PS

I believe your husband is sincerely "sorry" .... and I believe he is capable of future betrayals irregardless of how sorry he feels.

It's part of who he is.... as defined by how he lives. His choices define him, especially repeated choices in full awareness of the wrong he is doing.

Pep

Hi, JenniJsH.

Quote:
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... but that there are some women and men out there, that are totally given in to sinful sexual desires, that let themselves be used, and use this info, to destroy families and other people, out of anger and spite probably generated from abuse and neglect in their own lives..and there is every degree of WS in between the H/W that gets snared in an affair and those that go out laying traps ...
=================================

You are correct, Those people are out there, I used to know a few of them. I used to be one of them. They do love people like you.

Let me tell you something that you won't like, but I sincerely hope that you are going to think hard about it.

Stepping back into my old dead self for a moment.

If you were a woman, you would be an easy target. You would have the roaming eyes. Your type is easily identifiable. You are a 'grass is greener' type. Always looking for the better grass, across the fence, at the end of the road, over in the next pasture, in another person's back yard, you look everywhere for better grass.

Add to that a modest sense of adventure; that's where the thrill at a new conquest comes from. You won over another heart. Hang that one on the trophy wall.

You have obviously come across my type, the only difference in your quote is that I didn't set out to intentionally harm, I was even worse, I didn't care.

So, I am going to tell you what I learned while I was still a young man. The grass in your field, is the best damn grass you are EVER going to find on this planet. I don't care how much other grass you sample, the best grass is at home, in a place you are cared for.

I sampled grass in hundreds of pastures. How many do you have to try before you are satisfied with the grass at home? I almost lost the only person I have ever loved, and more importantly, the only person that ever really LOVED ME. Are you going to go down that path?

The way you stop doing what you have done, and what you will do again, is by understanding that the draw of the grass in the other field, is nothing more and has never been more, than an illusion, fueled by your own lusts. It was never real to begin with.

Do you really think that lovers on television love better than the rest of us? Do you really think that sex with the girl at the end of the bar is better than other sex you have had? Do you think that the other girl gives better conversation than your wife? Do you really believe that a porn actress gives better sex than your wife? Do you believe that if your wife did everything that a porn star does, that you would somehow be better or less tempted?

Illusions. All illusions. What you are chasing can never be found. It is time to face that fact head on. It is time for you to change your focus. That woman that still, even after all of this, calls herself your wife, has waited years for you to make a simple singular decision to look at your own pasture and actually notice just how good it really is. She is waiting on you to have a second look and take stock of all the ways you have been blessed, even though you have been too blind to see it.

So, how long will you chase the unobtainable and ignore the reality of what you have?

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble... I don't want to write too much because I want H to read your post and evaluate it for himself and I don't want anything I say to detract from it.... I just had to respond though. I am sobbing... possibly for one of the few times since he came clean. I've been very numb, but truth is powerful. It's scary, it's almost as if you know him. Wow. Your assessment is so right on as to his personality...Powerfully and respectfully written. Thank you so much for your input and time. I pray it will be as powerful to him as it was to me. I'm interested in your story.

Pep- I haven't forgotten you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I read what you wrote and I am digesting it. I don't know if I have it in me to respond tonight cause Gimble's got me all torn up (in a good way) but I do appreciate your thoughts... More later.

I'ld like to add more to Gimble's post by suggesting you read "Wild at Heart" Eldridge, a book which I found to be among the most practical I have ever read (thank you Pep).

I would also suggest you do something about replacing your addiction with positive activities which increase self-worth, ones that are challenging, rewarding to a healthy individual and which really do offer atonement to society and to your wife.

Such as building something (manual labor) for someone else that they need, repairing someone's roof, going fishing with your family, going mountain climbing (or hiking) to reconnect with nature and the true beauty of life, volenteering at the old-folks home, etc.

Praying and scripture reading is all fine and dandy but God loves everyone, even the sinners and even just as they are.

You need practical, eartly measures to fill that void. And any addiction needs to be replaced with healthy activity/goals.

My ex-fiance took that book to heart and also has been making what seems to be amazing strides in his journey to wholeness by following the examples above and in that book.

He has been physically and emotionally separated from me at my insistance since last summer. He no longer tries to get back with me in is old half-assed way. He doesn't try to get back with me at all anymore in fact, he is no longer sure of our relationship. And that is okay with me, because I see his growth. He is becomming a changed man.

He comes into town now, pays for a motel and does work on my rentals, yard anything he sees that needs to be done with no request for SF or anything else. He tells me it makes him feel good that he can repay what he took from my DD and I in this way.

He also volenteers to help others in fixing their cars, their roofs, building sheds anything he can do, and this gives him his much needed admiration. It also is his way of making amends for the incredible pain he has caused others, including his children and last three wives.

If he keeps it up for another three months (one year since I ended it), I might consider him a truly changed man and open my heart again.

BTW, I have it on very good authority (his kids) who are keeping tabs on him like a hawk and who he spends most weekends with now, helping them out that he has not been with a woman since last summer.

Pretty good for a man who couldnt' stand to be alone for even a night before. And one who needed the "high" of the chase to make him feel alive when his relationship/marriage became to dull and predictable.

Give this some thought in your plans for recovery because there is more than the recovery of your marriage which is needed here.

Good luck in all this, to you both.

Gimble and Weaver, (and ALL contributers on this thread...I didn't mean to leave anyone out)

Jenn and I are heading out for a weekend away, befor that I have to get some work done round the office. Thanks for your continued challanges and for being earnest...I will follow up Sunday evening.

JenniJsH

Hi, JenniJ.

I was wondering how things are going with you two.

All the best,
Gimble

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