I really believe that for this family unit to make it through this without absolute disaster, (iow Plan B) the following has to happen. It has to happen now, and across the board and will require total commitment and dedication from BOTH of us.

a.) First and foremost, the marijuana addiction has to be eliminated. Both of us need to stop smoking weed and get into an addiction counselling program.

b.) IC. Plenty of it. Regularily, with an aim to effecting real life change, not just exploring our childhoods. We both need to learn how to manage Life.

c.) Counselling for our child to help with his difficulties at school and his social life.

d.) MC. If not for the marriage then at least to help us learn to get along more productively as members of a household and as parents.

e.) All ties cut with the old town. Which means:

Absolute and totally accountable NC with OP or any of the other 'friends' who supported/enabled/protected the affair including NC letters.

Our stuff that's in Ontario should be picked up by an auctioneer and sold. Proceeds directly to repayment of this family's debt and some to a 'just in case' fund (if there's any left) to help ensure our stability in the coming months.

f) We should each go see a doctor, get complete physicals including STD testing and also screen for depression. Obviously there should be treatment sought for any conditions.

g) We should fix a schedule to discuss these issues so that the topic doesn't dominate daily life.

h) All this should occur and be given 100% effort for a certain amount of time that Dylan and I agree upon. After that, with the help of our counsellors, and input from our board friends, we will re-assess everything and decide to either split up or be married. Once and for all, for crying. out. loud.

And if we split up then, well it'll be a much smoother operation. Far less chaos. Much more time to prepare our son and prepare ourselves to help him through it. It still won't be a good thing, but certainly it will be less traumatic for him and for everyone.

That's the basic plan. What I would need to avoid Plan B. Any suggestions? Modifications? Comments? Is this basically a list of selfish demands?

Disclaimer:

I posted this same thing over at SYMC. I'm actually hoping Dylan will join in this discussion and I know she feels more comfortable over there. I just want to say in advance that I will take very unkindly to any 2x4s raised in this thread. Disagree with something? No problem. State your case respectfully and without judgement. This is a difficult time for everyone in this home right now and it's extremely important that should she show up here, this thread be a safe place for her to be. Thanks for your understanding and co-operation.

John

I've been away due to computer problems. I'm sorry to see that you're having such a rough time.

I don't want to say more right now because it would feel like pouring salt in your wounds. Breathe and remember these two things: you have choices, and you can control yourself--not outcomes.

Take care dewt

Well it sounds like a good recovery/rebuilding plan to me if Dylan wants to save your marriage.

Has she indicated this? Does she want to end her affair and rebuild?

Maybe you have already answered this somewhere and I missed it?

Hi dewt,

I thought I should explain what I meant by it "feeling like it would be rubbing salt in your wounds" if I said anything more at this time. What I was referring to has to do with your DISHONESTY with ME throughout our many posts.

When you are not so raw from your recent discoveries about Dylan, if you are willing to discuss this I would be willing too.

In the meantime, take care--and get clean <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

er...

I don't have a lot of time to reply right now... but I'm very seriously clueless about this...

I do want to keep this thread focussed on my plan, so if what you have to say is such, please post it here. Otherwise, call me out on a thread. Please do, cause I really want to know what you're talking about...

Don't worry about my wounds. They've already been salted and sun-dried.

John

dewt, sounds like some good items to work on. I for one will be here to support you and Dylan if she should come here.

{{{dewt & Dylan}}}

Keep movin forward bro!

Hi dewt,

The dishonesty I was referring to is this: the last I remember reading, you were no longer using pot at all. Remember all the time and posts between us to get a handle on where you're really starting at? Drug use and/or addiction is an IMPORTANT piece of information! Now the many things that confused me about your sitch aren't confusing at all---now it makes sense.

The best advice I can give you is get yourself clean AND SOBER. Has anyone ever explained the difference between "clean" and "sober" to you? They are two different things. I'll bet Gimble or Melody Lane or Pepperband (I forget who else) could explain it to you. Hint: being "clean" does not necessarily mean that one is "sober".

Also, read the info pages that talk about active addiction. Harley says that there can be no marital recovery until the addiction is dealt with. Harley also says that Plan A is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE when there is active addiction.

Start with yourself dewt, get yourself clean and sober. You just might find that after you get clean and sober you might not be the only attractive choice for Dylan--sobriety might become an attractive choice for her too. Lead the way dewt, she just might follow.

Take care dewt--and find some meetings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok. I see what you are saying. Dylan and I were reviewing that thread last night, looking for my 'dishonesty'... things make more sense now.

What can I say? You are right. Addictions do work against Plan A, whether it's for the OP or the joint. I know this. It's why that is up there in 1st spot on my list.

I had more posted last night but lost it when I tried to post.

dewt

Just to update everyone...

Dylan has joined my Plan Dewt thread over at SYMC... I am very relieved and hopeful about this first step.

dewt

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will you be changing the thread title? How about Plan Dewt and Dylan? Or, Our Plan--a POJA in Progress? My ideas are pretty lame but I'll bet you two could come up with a good one.

Good luck to you both, and go to some meetings dewt <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I posted the original topic to both MB and SYMC. Dylan has joined the conversation over there. She will likely not come over here, partly because of the technical issues, but mostly because MB is no longer a 'safe' place to come and post.

Considering that I just got logged out AGAIN and lost yet ANOTHER post, I may very well take a break from MB too. This is just WAY TOO frustrating.

J

p.s.: I started my addiction therapy last week.

Hi dewt,

Starting addiction therapy is a great start! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, getting clean and sober is not just one thing on a list of many things to work on---it's the FOUNDATION that makes the rest of the list even possible. IMHO, without sobriety the rest will not happen no matter how much time or effort you put into it.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the more major effects in your life (like work-related issues and mini-related issues for example) were significantly improved just by becoming sober.

Take care---have you found any meetings yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WoooHOOOO!! Go Dewt and Dylan. I am rooting for you!!
I have also checked out SYMC but have not yet registered. I will continue to read up on your story over there Dewt.
Suzy

re-posted from SYMC

Hey Dewt...it is late...I must get up very early....we have just talked for a few hours....so I will get back to this...

I have given it a cursory glance, and have a partially digested response almost ready....

I know...you're shocked...it hasn't taken me a week and a half....

so I guess this will be the site of our POJA...

for the most part, after my cursory glance, I think I genreally agree with all those things...I have some things to add, but it requires a cut and paste job from the "Loving boundries" thread over on MB....

for now, I have got to get to sleep....

c ya....later tonight..tomorrow night, rather...

Dylan


and then:

a.) First and foremost, the marijuana addiction has to be eliminated. Both of us need to stop smoking weed and get into an addiction counselling program.

~~~~~~~~
agreed

~~~~~~~~

b.) IC. Plenty of it. Regularily, with an aim to effecting real life change, not just exploring our childhoods. We both need to learn how to manage Life.

~~~~~~~~
again, agreed

~~~~~~~~~


c.) Counselling for our child to help with his difficulties at school and his social life.

~~~~~~~~~
agreed...although this is an on-going process already...

~~~~~~~~~~


d.) MC. If not for the marriage then at least to help us learn to get along more productively as members of a household and as parents.

~~~~~~~~
agreed

~~~~~~~~~


e.) All ties cut with the old town. Which means:

Absolute and totally accountable NC with OP or any of the other 'friends' who supported/enabled/protected the affair including NC letters.

~~~~~~~~
okaaay....

question....are these items on this list all reciprocal?...or are some merely for me to adhere to in order to protect your 'boundries"...ie: would you have to observe these 'rules' as well...the e-mails you keep mentioning that you have written to a particular friend but have not sent, FEEL like a threat left hanging above me...your tatoo would have to be finished somewhere else...no cheap storage in the 'bakery'....etc

~~~~~~~~~~~


Our stuff that's in Ontario should be picked up by an auctioneer and sold. Proceeds directly to repayment of this family's debt and some to a 'just in case' fund (if there's any left) to help ensure our stability in the coming months.

~~~~~~~~

at this point, to be honest....you would end up paying more to have the auction house come and pack and cart away what is left than any financial gain you might hope for...

but I agree...get the stuff we want out....storage and we can go through it at a later date together...or whatever....but I agree we need to get our things out of that house...

our debt in that town still includes back rent and a substantial debt to ow who paid our share of the utility bills .... together, she and I have a personal loan ....we borrowed so that all those unpaid bills (our (yours and mine) debt being part of that total) could get paid in time for winter and the heat could be turned back on, stay of eviction, etc....

these debts can no longer be ignored or shrugged off ....to vacate the premises requires notice to the landlord, our things removed, and payments made....

~~~~~~~~~


f) We should each go see a doctor, get complete physicals including STD testing and also screen for depression. Obviously there should be treatment sought for any conditions.

~~~~~~~~
agreed

~~~~~~~~


g) We should fix a schedule to discuss these issues so that the topic doesn't dominate daily life.

~~~~~~~~~
agreed....

~~~~~~~~~


h) All this should occur and be given 100% effort for a certain amount of time that Dylan and I agree upon. After that, with the help of our counsellors, and input from our board friends, we will re-assess everything and decide to either split up or be married. Once and for all, for crying. out. loud.


~~~~~~~~~

agreed

this is where the cut and paste job from MB should pop in...but I am going to have to do a little work on it so's not to scare you...but she discussed with you a concept of a 3-month 'divorce' process that was retractable at any point in the 3 months.....she encouraged the idea of a document.....much like your original post to this thread....something tangible, signable...posted and held publicly accountable...


I'm REALLY REALLY tired, so it may sound farfetched right now...but the post exists..really..

~~~~~~~~~


And if we split up then, well it'll be a much smoother operation. Far less chaos. Much more time to prepare our son and prepare ourselves to help him through it. It still won't be a good thing, but certainly it will be less traumatic for him and for everyone.


~~~~~~~~~
agreed

~~~~~~~~~

Awed....ok...I will tone down that disrespect...

J...*hugs*....


for all those 'watching from the sidelines'.....

ummm...hi....I'm Dylan...

I'll be the other POJA'er here during your time here with us...

Dylan

this is part of the posting from 'LovingBoundries':


So you would need to come up with your own "divorce process". I'm thinking something like this.....

1. Filing for divorce. In your case, I was thinking a written statement informing the other person that the divorce process was starting.

2. Since it takes a minimum of six months in my state for a divorce to become final, I was thinking that six months from the date that notice was first given is when you can consider your common law marriage to be over. Not when you no longer "feel" married. Six months after giving notice that you no longer want to BE married.

3. Divorce proceedings can be halted before the divorce becomes final. In your case, the written statement would have to be withdrawn and destroyed. If either of you again decided that you want to divorce, the process starts again INCLUDING the six months it takes to be over.

Do you think something like this could give you two a more clear and secure framework to work within? A framework where you both were certain about what the CURRENT status of your marriage is?


Btw, even if you are just living together without marriage of any kind, I think my idea could be modified to signify when you are living "together" (even if in a holding pattern for now) and when living "together" is in the PROCESS of ending. There would be an indication that life was going to drastically change and you both would have time to adjust your plans of doing your personal work to accomodate those new terms. And, until a six-month notice was given, you would both be able to do your own work without the threat that the rug could be pulled out from under you at any moment.

~~~~~~~~~

Comments.....thoughts...


Dylan

Hey Dylan et al...

Very tired from a long drive, so I will be brief.

Looks like we have the making of a deal here. I acknowledge that the sit in Ontario is going to take some fine tuning.

As for the quote from LovingBoundries, I'm not sure what your point is. I agree that it would be a good way to handle things, but I'm unclear on whether you are wanting to start that process now or just define it as the way we will handle things if it should come to that.

dewt

Dewt, I registered and just read your threads at SYMC. Wow - you write it out so well. Just like a journal.


Have you gone back over your posts and seen how far you have come? I mean we all have those depressing moments where we dip back into the old ways for a bit but I just wanted to say I am proud of you. Loved the names mini-dewt and was it maxi-dewt or bigger-dewt for your kids. Made me laugh.

Your life has certainly had a lot of twists and turns. Like I said you write it so well. My life has seen a bit of turmoil too but I just scribble it out in my journal every few days to make myself feel better.

It seems you truly know yourself very well and know what needs to be done for YOU, not necessarily for Dylan but YOU are the important one here.
When my WH was in treatment for alcohol, his counselor told him to concentrate on himself and not make any major decisions about his marriage or his future until he'd been sober for a year.
(Have to say his alcohol counseler did not know about his A either, just that he was having marital troubles.)

My WH does not have nearly the self-worth that you do and unfortunately fell back into old habits almost right away.

Even with the latest news about Dylan, don't let yourself fall back into the self-destructive ways. Mini-dewt needs you!!

I know you can do it..

Hi dewt,

I've been reading your thread at SYMC. It looks like you and Dylan are in excellent hands over there, especially with JustJ. I hope you re-read her posts often--they are loaded with excellent points and suggestions so it might take a number of readings over a period of time for it all to really sink in.

Have you found any meetings yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Suzy, I do enjoy writing a great deal. A little too much on occaision. I learned to type some years back and it's a skill I just really appreciate having. I can type about as fast as it takes me to think out a sentence and I tend to ramble so sometime things get a little out of hand. Long posts with insane run-on sentences. Also I take full artistic liscence with spelling and even make up new words as the need suits me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes my children help me. For example: Wobast (Whoa-Bass) adj.: describing the sudden development of a very bad situation(s) that is beyond one's ability to predict, prevent or control.

I look back often. I spend enormous amounts of time contemplating. Perhaps too much. I look back and I do see progression but I also see other things and I can't say that I'm satisfied of my progress. Sheesh. All that bragging and all of a sudden I can't find the words... but yes, my life has been pretty er... eventful.

And there's a LOT of events that I'd go back and change. In a second. If I could. And YES it would change who I am today. It would change a lot of things, but I wouldn't even hesitate.

I think that's sage advice regarding the decisions. Factor in the death of my Brother and a few other major factors and the scene is set for major mistake making. That's one of the key elements of the 'plan'. Time to take some action, make some changes in our lives, sustain them and then make THE decision. I suspect it will have already been made by then. I also suspect that it (whatever it is) will be unanimous.

An Affair, the Fog, Withdrawal all stem from 2 basic things. An unhappiness (unmet ENs, for example) followed by a failure to deal with it appropriately. When you boil it down, that's the basic thing and it happens at both ends. In my opinion, by the time the moment comes that the WS is ABOUT to cheat, both parties have already failed in maintaining they're marriage. (Once the WS crosses that line, this becomes a whole 'nuther argument, so please don't jump on me)

I believe 'our' unhappiness stems from largely from our complete failure to manage life. We're always scrambling and missing the mark. Plenty of the things we've faced have been beyond our control. Wobast, if you will. But there's been plenty enough that we have to own up to, and if we were doing things better, perhaps the wobast wouldn't be so devastating.

Anyway, my point is, that yes; Fix things. Keep things fixed. Step back. Look. Decide.

My WH does not have nearly the self-worth that you do and unfortunately fell back into old habits almost right away.

Err... I appreciate the compliment, and I must say that I truly am doing my best, but I sure as heck don't have a very good track record. In fact if you put your H side by side with me, he might start looking pretty good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm just running out of mistakes to make. And if Dylan didn't have the patience of a saint, my stuff would have been out on the curb long, long ago.

Hey LovingBoundries, Your name is the only one I can't shorten. Just can't call someone LB on this board. Anyway, yes, J is awesome. And I do re-read, and question when I don't get it.

I'm seeing an addiction counsellor. He is going to be my guide through this and I'm going to do what he says. I've had one meeting with him so far and have no idea what he will suggest. Between him and my IC (and maybe and MC) if I choose go to any more meetings, they will be Bible related or maybe Cub Scouts. On the other hand, if my counsellor suggests meetings, I will not protest.

I did see my doctor yesterday and she put me on Effexor. Also gave me a prescription for Ativan. I might even take advantage and quit smoking cigarettes.

Anyway, duty calls.

ttfn,

J