I think I'll call it Finals.

This is the test you take to see if you get a reasonable grade in this marriage and are allowed to take on the next one.

Not a very good metaphor, I suppose.

Anyway, I'll give an update. My recent threads were not brought over from the old system, so I'll refer to them here:

Help me come up with a last try.

and

I'm filing soon.

I visited the lawyer Wednesday afternoon to get him started working up the papers for an uncontested D. I didn't feel anything - except when he told me how quickly it could go through, I didn't feel like I was in a hurry. I asked him about various options for slowing it down.

W is in a highly stressed state - doesn't want to D right now because she is waiting for her citizenship. It might come through in two months - or six.

Yesterday evening, W called me at work in a semi-hysterical state. She had lost her drivers license and green card. Both of them she had last used at the bank when opening an account on Monday. She still hasn't found them. We have some hope that the person at the bank still has them. That person apparently is off for a few days, so we won't know until Tuesday. W is feeling very insecure right now because of all that's going on.

I'm OK.

Work is going well.

I'm going to try and post this before I write more.

-AD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

AD,

This is probably going to sound like an odd question, but is the citizenship the only reason your w wants to remain married?

Do you think there is a chance that she will miss you when you are gone and not taking care of her anymore. I mean miss you in a way that she will come to realize that she has been very selfish, does love you and wants to try and have a new, better marriage with you?

Is this your hope?

I worry about your wife after you are gone. She doesn't seem able to handle things well. Although the concern of everyone on this board is for your wellbeing and you do deserve a wife who loves you, and who is faithful. And I know you want more children so you are doing the right thing in my opinion.

I still have some hope for your marriage for some reason. Even if it has to end before it can begin, if you know what I mean.

Weaver,

I don't really think citizenship is the only reason. W depends on me to handle all the inconveniences of life - to make all the arrangments, take care of most of the problems.

Since it's so hard to post now (which is a good thing for me - I'm trying to avoid MB when I'm supposed to be working), I didn't tell a more complete picture of that day.

Thursday morning, while I was in the shower, W started knocking on the bathroom door (which was locked). (W is sleeping downstairs for the last month). When I came out, she asked me to help her get some stuff printed out on the computer. She had a project for one of her classes which required her to produce a poster with some info displayed on it. I don't know why I didn't just say "It's not my problem, I'm going to work.", but I didn't say that. I said "OK". When I got down there, she didn't really need help with printing - but wanted me to cut and trim things and mount them on her poster board. She says she always messes up things like that. I agreed to do it - and was working on that - mentioned a couple of things she could do to improve the look of the thing etc. As I worked on it for awhile, she offered to make me a cup of coffee (which she has done about 5 or 6 times in our entire marriage). I took that as some kind of good sign - that she realized that I was doing something for her - and thought about doing something for me. Of course, it takes a whole lot less time to make a cup of instant coffee than to do what I was doing for her - but all the same, considering the history, I said "sure, thanks!" - and she went off to do that. Later, I found a cup of water in the microwave - so that's as far as that went. As I was finishing, she was in the shower. I left for work - about an hour late.

So, the day began with her in little crisis - in which she called on me for help.

To make up for being late, I was working late. I had not heard from her all day. She called about 6:30pm - in a panic about her lost IDs. I wasn't finished with what I wanted to do, but I came home to help look for them.

When I arrived home, W was rummaging all around - dragging things out of closets and drawers - looking for the lost cards. Strangely, I didn't hear a sound from our 4-year-old. I found DD up at the top of the stairs - curled up on the floor face down - commpletely silent. Apparently W had been yelling at her - and she was trying to be invisible for awhile. I spoke to her gently and she finally looked up and hopped into my lap. I gave her a good hug and asked her to come help me look for something for mommy. She came along with me. W said that DD was upset when she (W) went out to the car to look there - and DD wanted to come with her - thought she was leaving. I don't know what happened, but DD was whispering for two days after that - trying not to upset her Mom by making any sounds. (And W was angrily telling DD not to whisper - but "talk like a big girl" - because, I think she felt guilty that her child has to try to hard to avoid setting her off).

I started looking around. I figured she stuck the cards in her pocket instead of her purse, and I would find them in the laundry or something. I checked all of her clothes - didn't find anything.

I got the usual abuse with everything I did to try to help. I asked W about the last time she had them (at the bank). Her reply was to shout "Don't ask me to try to remember something I don't remember!" She was uncooperative. I was on my own. So, I thought "maybe somebody at the bank called". I started reviewing the phone messages on the machine. W was yelling at me "That's an old message from Decemeber! Why are you listening to it!!!". I tried to explain that the machine plays the old messages in order... (I don't usually check the machine since she gets most of the calls at home) and I have to listen to the oldest one first before I can get to the more recent ones - and I have to listen to it long enough to figure out if it's from the bank or not. She was raging about it - shouting "Why are you DOING THIS TO ME!!".

yada yada yada.

I don't have the energy now to go through all that again. After she calmed down a bit, she appologized to DD (most important) and to me. She had slept very little the previous night - was up working on something for her classes - so she went to bed at 8:30 (Thursday). I came into her room - she asked me kiss her forehead - then her cheek - then her lips. She needed a little comfort.

I left her to sleep.

DD and I were up - doing this and that. I gave DD something to eat (W had been too busy searching the house, and DD had eaten chicken nuggets on the way home from preschool earlier). DD was playing - making a little noise. W came charging out of her room at 9:30 - looking half-asleep. Shouting at DD for making noise - and at me for allowing her to make noise - not having her in the bath or in bed. I just left DD with her Mom and went out to the garage to work on something. W calmed down, gave DD a bath and got her in bed. Then she was up watching TV. I stayed away from her and went to bed.

I'm tired of writing about this. I'm at the office on a beautiful Sunday afternoon - just to get away from the unpleasantness at home.

Let's see if it will post when I click <continue>

-AD

I know that W feels a need for me. I give her a sense of being protected - of being taken care of. Lately, when we talk about marriage, I tell her I wanted a partner. She replies that she is not a feminist - doesn't want to be "equal". She just wants to be taken care of.

She's angry with me that I didn't protect her from having her nephew live with us. She is constantly annoyed with him. He's 22 and has lived with us since about 2 months before our DD was born. I replied that she insisted that he come - and that I was trying to please her by hosting him. She replied that I should have known that it was not good for her and should have protected her from that. "I will never forgive you for that", she said.

So, I asked her how I was supposed to do that. I'm working from the parnership model of marriage, and she is working from something else. Sometimes I think she wants me to be her Dad instead of her H. (I am 20 years older). I don't want to be her Dad. I don't want to say "I know you want that, but I don't think it's good for you so I'm not going to let you have it." I don't want to be like that. She's trying to force me into a role that seems wrong to me. It's really strange. She wants to have no responsibility - and no matter what happens or what we do - it is going to be my fault. If I tell her "no" about something, I'm the bad guy. If she wants to do something and I don't oppose it - when it doesn't work out, I'm at fault. Again, I'm the bad guy.

All of that would be hard to live with - but I would endure it - if it were not for the fact that she sneaks off to see OM behind my back - calls him on the phone - and generally treats me like a temporary husband that she'll throw away as soon as she is strong enough to not need me anymore.

Part of treating me like a father instead of her H - is that she gets to grow up and leave when she's ready. (From her POV).

I'm going to be 47 next week. I need to know who I'm going to spend the next 25 years with. I don't want to wait for her to feel ready to dump me and move on with OM. That's why I'm headed for D.

-AD

I'm speechless. Please don't leave that little 4 yr old baby in her care AD. I have tried to talk to you about this before but you always come back and say it is not so bad, that DD was acting bad and so on and so forth.

I start to feel sorry for your wife until you post her treatment of that precious baby and then I just feel sick.

Does this not seem like abuse to you? I don't know what you can do about it, since you are bound and determined to give WW custody, but I implore you to really take a good look at the way your DD is acting. She is acting like a child traumatized by her parent's uncontrollable, inconsistent rage.

I won't post to you anymore if you don't want me too, but please look at this. It's some pretty awful stuff AD.


Your WW needs serious parenting classes, does she even realize that she is abusive? And that she is doing serious damage to that little girl she says she loves so much? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My concern is that once you move out your WW will really fall apart, she doesn't handle things well now even though she knows you will take care of everything.

Too bad you couldn't leave and take DD with you until WW gets the help she needs. She really as no business having a little girl entrusted to her care.

Can you make parenting classes along with IC for parents who are abusive part of the custody/divorce agreement. Maybe the two of you could work together on this issue, to ensure WW is getting the parental support she is going to need, and to learn better parenting skills.

Hi, AD.

I agree with weaver, and I have said basically the same thing to you - get custody.

In the mean time;

I understand that you don't want to play father with your wife, but culturally, she may need something from you that is uncomfortably close to that.

If you are up for an experiment, try the following for the next couple of weeks.

1) Stop rescuing her. Let her stumble through her own messes. That means ALL of them.

2) If she yells at you, immediately tell her to stop, if she doesn't immediately stop, you walk off. No yelling. No outbursts. After she is calm, tell her you will no longer tolerate her angry outbursts. This is a boundary. If she strikes you, immediately call the police and have her arrested.

3) If she yells at daughter, you immediately remove your daughter from your wife's presence. Later address your wife's irresponsibility with your daughter. Accept no excuses for the behavior. Set boundaries and enforce them.

4) Make demands of her. Yep, I know, that doesn't sound right. Make the demands reasonable, and be consistent. "Wife, I expect you to make my coffee every morning". If you don't get it, ask her where it is and why she did not honor your reasonable request. Then tell her to do it now. Add a few other small items to your list.

5) If you haven't done so, contact her mother and inform her of your wife's involvement with the other man. If you have previously contacted her, contact her again and tell her of the continuing involvement.

Report the results back here.

All the best,
Gimble

Since MB has gotten so hard to use, I'm going to try to make this the only post of the (work) day.

I've gotten some very fun work lately - and a chance to get out of my work doldrums - which is vital - so the sudden event of MB being really hard to use is good for me.

OK.

Weaver & Gimble,

I want to thank both of you for posting. I feel like I'm shooting down your suggestions and probably you'll feel like you were wasting your time "talking" to me. I am listening and thinking. I appreciate you telling it like you see it - even if I don't see it the same way.

Re W's competence as a Mom.

I'm sure I don't give an undistorted and complete report of W's relationship with our daughter. Most of the time, W is a good Mom. When she is under a lot of stress, she is not.

Now, every parent once in a while shouts at their child. Even me. Saturday, for example, DD wanted to go the the playground - on her tricycle. She has never been big on wheels. I've seen plenty of 2-year olds who are more adept at riding tricycles than she is - and some 4-year-olds who ride bikes. I think it is just a matter of lack of opportunity, combined with lack of competition. (She's not around other kids who ride.) Anyway, we started off toward the playground. I tell you, this is like taking a snail for a 10 mile hike! It is a real test of patience. I'm walking ahead and she is shouting "Daddy! You come back here right now!" (not once, but constantly). Then she whines "Help me!". When I tell her "OK, we're leaving the tricyle here. I'll come back for it later!", she has a fit - shouting "No! No! No. It's MINE!". She stops to watch every guy trimming his bushes - or look at every newspaper lying on the sidewalk - or to pick her nose. She never looks where she's going - and constantly runs (ha, crawls is more like it) one wheel off in the grass and shouts "I'm stuck! Help me! I'm stuck!" (She does it on purpose.) As I say, it's a real test of patience. W has been through this herself - and ended up carrying DD and dragging the tricycle behind her. W has a bad back, and weighs about 100 pounds - so this is a major physical test. So, yeah, I shouted at DD a little on Saturday - just a little.

My points are
1) Every parent yells at their kids once in awhile. It's not good, but it certainly does not mean that you give up your right to be a parent.
2) The incident between W and our daughter on Thursday is the kind of thing that happens about once a month - where DD just gets in the way when W is upset about something. W would never physically harm her.
3) W is quite concious of her weakness as a Mom when she is upset. Thursday, actually, when W started giving me a hard time while I was trying to help her, I started to leave - and she said "Don't leave DD alone here with me." I said something like "well, I'll just take her for a walk" - and she appologized and asked me to stay and help her look for the lost ID's.

In short, 95% of the time, W is a good Mom. I think the lapses, while regretable and damaging to DD, are manageble.

If I gained custody, DD would be in day-care while I work. Right now, when her Mom is in class, DD is in an above-average pre-school. Given the choice, DD would always choose to be with her Mom rather than at pre-school. 100% of the time that would be her choice. They call it a "pre-school", but they have taught her nothing. Meanwhile, her Mom has taught her many many things. I wouldn't be surprised if she learned to read before she entered K - learning from her Mom. I don't think being in preschool (glorified daycare) would be better.

Looking at weekends, If I gained custody, W would have visitation - and DD would spend half her weekends with Mom - just as she would if I didn't have custody.

I just don't see any advantage of me having custody - and I do see some clear disadvantages. First, it would be total war. W would do anything to avoid losing custody. I don't want to be in a war with her. I'm sure it would not be good for our child. It would put W in a state of very high stress for more than a year (court is a year behind on contested divorces). That would not be good for our child. I'm being realistic here. In an ideal world things would be different.

Gimble,

Your suggestions are interesting. Honestly, on weekdays, I rarely drink coffee at home - I just wait and have it at the office (it's free). But the general idea of asking her for things is interesting - and I think good. But it doesn't make me feel good. She does cook - actually right now, she is cooking more often than she did in the past.

I agree that I should not rescue her. This is a mini-plan B kind of thing. I slipped when I helped her with the poster. She has to do her own class-work. If she loses something, she can find it herself. When she is hysterical, it honestly is very hard for me to tell her "sorry, you lost it. It's not my problem." We are still married after all - and what's a spouse for if not to help you when you need help? She wants me to go with her to the INS office (Atlanta) to file for the replacement green card. I kinda halfway promised to do that. We'll see. In any case, it will take at least 6-8 weeks to get a replacement. It's a good opportunity for her to get used to taking care of her own stuff - as she would have to if we were divorced (unless she can get OM to do it, and I don't get any indication that she asks him to help her with anything).

As for your point about what I should do when she yells at me. I think you're right on the mark there. That's pretty much the way I handle it. I just walk away - sometimes I leave the house. Sunday I was here at the office because of a blowup at home. (maybe if I have the energy, I'll tell about it later.)

W's Mom knows about OM. Her Mom is an abusive manipulator. Getting her Mom involved is, unfortunately, not helpful - as her Mom has no wisdom in such matters. All of W's worst features are just reflections of her mom. Actually, when W told her Mom that we probably would be getting a D - that made it more certain that we would go through with it - since I knew her Mom will go ballistic about it - will demand that W stay married to me - tell her what she must do to be an honorable woman and a decent daughter etc. etc. In short, her Mom seems totally oblivious to the fact that an adult child cannot be controlled that way - and will most likely do the opposite of what a controlling parent tries to force them to do. I have no interest in ever communicating with her family again.

Well, that's about it for now. It's too long, I know.

If anybody managed to read all of that, thanks!

-AD

Hi, AD.

My thoughts about your wife are confirmed in your comments about her mother.

Here is the deal. Your wife needs a strong influence, not abuse, a kind, but strong influence. That is why I made the suggestions that I did.

A couple of points. When you walk off, don't leave the house. That communicates the wrong message to her. Stay strong and stand your ground. That communicates that you will not tolerate unacceptable behavior, but that you are not going to leave her.

In my opinion, your wife suffers from a lack of firm grounding. Her mother was abusive, and your wife feels the need to be rebellious. Have you sought any kind of therapy for her issues, or for yourself regarding these issues?

I can't tell you how to 'fix' your wife, but there is a wealth of information floating about on how to treat a rebellious teen. Much of that should also work with your wife. One thing is for certain, if you treat her with firm kindness, and make firm reasonable boundaries with her, she will eventually find the security she is seeking so desperately.

If you are expecting an 'equal partner', already cast in the mold and ready to function, then she is not the girl for you. If you want an equal that can grow WITH YOU into the partner you need, then it is going to require a concerted effort, and you are going to have to make a lot of changes yourself.

I still have major concerns with your daughter.

Laying face down on the floor playing invisible so that she doesn't upset her mom, is NOT NORMAL. I also strongly disagree that 95% decent parent is good enough when it comes to abusive behaviors. Your daughter is four years old.

None of us have been perfect parents. There have never been any perfect parents. Regardless, the only acceptable good parenting vs. abusive parenting ratio is 1x10/18 to none.

Please call an abuse center and honestly convey one of your wife/daughter altercations with them. Don't exaggerate, don't down play, state just the facts, and see what they have to say. Do it anonymously. Make sure you tell them your daughters age.

Al the best,
Gimble

Thank you AD for continuing to put enough trust in this board to communicate all of this very personal stuff.

It is so important for people to be able to tell their story and get different perspectives. It is invaluable in my opinion especially for people whose lives and very core have been devastated by infidelity to have a place like this they can use as a sounding board and get opinions, advice and most importantly a different perspective on their situation.

It takes us out of our own head so to speak and returns us to sanity.

For me, I have no parents and am a single mom with almost no family around so I come here and post something that happens with my DD and her dad. Like the cheerleading incident which cost me almost a weeks sleep I was so upset. I came here and people like you said "so what's the big deal, do you want her to be a cheerleader or get good grades". Well it made me see that maybe there was another side and maybe there was a solution. In fact there was a solution and the different views I got here helped me to get some perspective on the situation that seemed hopeless to me. It also made me see that yeah he made her quit cheerleading, that's not the end of the world. But our lack of co-parenting skills is harming our DD. It also made me see that others felt the way I did and had been in the 50/50 custody sitch and their kids were okay, and so will mine be.

I don't know what I'm trying to say except that I am glad you are talking, using this as a sounding board and getting ideas about your situation.

Gimble gave you some very good ideas regarding the sitch with your WW and her spoiled (even if from her own childhood abuse/trauma) personality.

I think you should give them an honest attempt and see what happens. At this point what do you have to lose?

I also want to add that I am a pretty level headed women with a good job as a professional, my own home and properties, living in my own native land and I am 45. Much older and better equipped to handle the world than your wife and being a single parent has been extremely difficult, very lonely and stressful to put it mildly.

This is why I worry about your young wife, in a foreign land, her parents far away in another country with no experience at working or taking care of herself and taking care of your DD.

It's important for all these reasons (and for you) to do as Gimble says in his latest posts and open up this line of communication with WW, implement some solid parenting boundaries and let her know that you will tolerate nothing less in her treatment of you or your DD.

Weaver and Gimble,

Thanks for keeping up with my saga and offering your thoughts, experiences and suggestions.

First, am update:

The quick summary

W has been extremely reactive and sensitive lately. She is obviously under extreme stress and is not taking it well. It hurts me to see her this way.

We had a blowup Sunday - and I spend the afternoon in the office. This was precipitated by her asking me to pull a weed from the flower bed, to which I replied "I don't feel like it".

Monday morning, W called me at work and asked me to do something (I don't recall what it was). Again, I told her "I don't feel like it". She was very upset - and needing comfort...

W called "home" and talked, not to her Mom, but to her sister-in-law, who gave her a whole long lecture - the main points of which were that W is "destroying" her life, the life of her child and my(AD's) life. That God will curse her for this, that she will sit alone in her apartment and weep bitter tears of regret if she D's me etc. etc.

When W told me about her SIL's comments, I was very angry with SIL. She may be right about some of those things, but she has no right to lecture and judge W - who only called home hoping to find some comfort from her family. In responce to that, I told W that I would wait for her to get citizenship before the D.

Monday, I got home before W. W came home in an extremely foul mood - slamming things around and screaming a bit - 95% at me - and 5% at DD.

Tuesday morning, the bank employee who was our last hope for the missing green card returned from vacation - and did not have the missing item.

I e-filed for the green card replacement - and paid the $185 fee from my funds.

We recieved our state income tax refund yesterday (fed came in February). I endorsed the check and handed it to W. (about $700).

I told W that I would wait "a reasonable period of time" for her to get citizenship.

Last night I was talking to her about trying to turn this around. She is clearly interested in the possibility - and talked intelegently about some of the things that have negatively impacted our marriage - mostly about her family's overinvolvment in it.

The details - for the patient reader

Monday, I got home before W. W came home in an extremely foul mood. - with some groceries about which she bitterly complained that she spent $45 of the $200 that is all she has to her name - and complaining that as they drove home from the grocery, DD was constantly shouting from the back seat - demanding that W take her back to preschool where she lost a little sticker that W had stuck on DD's dress in the morning. W threw half the groceries around in the kitchen - 10 pound bag of potatoes hit the back wall of the pantry with a resounding THUMP - kinda halfway threw her shoes at me - slammed two doors as hard as she could twice each.

DD, still whining about the missing sticker, took refuge upstairs. I again found her in the same pose as she was in Sunday - which I will describe more precicely here. My best guess is that she was pretending to be a turtle, if you can imagine that. She had her legs folded up under her, her arms tucked in and her hed down - kind of a fetal position with her back up, if you can imagine it. She has lately been watching "Alice in Wonderland" (the one with Whoopie Goldberg) - and there is a turtle in it. I think there was some playful aspect in this. It was not pure fear - as she did this in an exposed postion - not hiding in her room, but on the top landing of the stairs where it seems that she hoped to be seen.

I picked her up and sat in the rocker in her room and was rocking her. (Every now and then she will endure about 2 minutes of this before squirming out to go do something.) W came up and offered some consoling words. She gave DD another sticker to replace the one she lost. DD said "This sticker doesn't stick like the other sticker" (which for her is a pretty good sentence and made us both smile). I got up and W took my place in the rocker. DD had her fill of snuggling and went off to do something else.

Maybe that gives you a more complete view of this dynamic between DD and W.

But, W was still very worked up. She was upset because of the roller-coaster effect - that she was upset that I was saying that we didn't have to D right now and could wait for her citizenship. From her point of view it is as if I am teasing her - telling her "You can have citizenship" then "No, you can't", then "Yes you can." It is very important to her and she feels very insecure in her position right now. If you put yourself in her place - to have $200 to your name, no citizenship, no job, no family nearby that she can rely on, not really knowing the legal system (though she has lived in US for almost 9 years) or trusting it to protect her - with an H who wants to D her - while at the same time trying to take exams, write papers and take care of a child - while trying to figure out where she is going to live, what school DD should go to (determined probably by where she choses to live) etc. etc. And in the midst of this, she loses her most important identity documents (other than her passport). It's a lot of pressure on her.

{leaving out some other significant events here Monday evening)

Since I cut her off from our (my?) bank account, she has felt trapped in a corner - and part of her reactiveness, sensitivity, hysteria (whatever you want to call it), is related to feeling that she is completely at my mercy. I had previously given her a small amount of money for daily expenses ($150/week for the last two weeks). Since I pay all the household expenses (and have now prepaid the preschool for the next 5 weeks), she has only to pay for gas, lunch, personal services (hair etc) and whatever groceries I don't buy. But, I could see that she felt trapped to have so little money. That was not serving me well. Partly I gave her the tax refund check because I feared that she might balk at signing it (I think it has to be endorsed by both of us or deposited into a joint account) - so I took the high road. I can always withold the $150/wk for a few weeks if I need to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think this is long enough now. Actually, it is too long and too short at the same time.

Thanks for reading,

-AD

Hi, AD.

Wow.

Let's back up and let me get a few facts down.

Is your wife still involved with the other man?

Have you directly discussed divorce or not with her?

What does she want from you?

What do you want from her?

Does she know what you want from her?

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

To answer your Q's...

The last time W visited OM (that I know of) was within the last 3 weeks. She had promised NC on Feb 21, but by Mar 21 had visited his apartment 5 or 6 times for 1 to 2 hours each visit. That's what precipitated my push for D now. I haven't checked lately. I suspect she has at least communicated with him by phone, but the most recent cell bill covered through 3/18.

I don't understand her relationship with him. I know I can't take at face value everything she tells me, but she behaves as if, in the event of D, she does not expect to marry any time soon - and if she does, it would be only because she is afraid to be alone. OM is still a student, on an F-1 student visa (as far as I know), and does not have the legal right to work. He works, so far as I know, at gas stations nights/weekends - probably the kind of place where the attendent sits in a bulletproof booth. I don't know where he works or when he will graduate. He's about 31 and if he graduates (in CS), might have some difficulting finding work right now if he has to get a temporary work visa (H1B) - because they are usually well oversubscribed - and cost the employer $1500. Of course, if they marry and she was a citizen, then after some period of time she could sponsor him for immigration, and he would be able to find some kind of work and maybe make a reasonable income. But W has said she will not lift a finger to help him - that if he wants her he has to prove himself. yada yada yada. In short, I really don't understand their relationship.

We certainly have directly discussed divorce, have agreed on custody, visitation and division of property. W knows that my lawyer is drawing up papers for an uncontested D. She intends to run these by her lawyer - just to confirm that the papers say what we agreed that they would say. She does not want to have to do this in court. If we both sign off on the uncontested D (and attend a parenting in D seminar), we will be D'd a month after filing. In my opinion, that is too soon. She's certainly not ready - and I'm not ready either. I have not given up hope of turning this around.

What she wants from me is leadership, vigor, direction. She wants me to have a plan for our family - to have goals and persue them vigorously - to lead by example, and by enthusiasm. She wants me to be successful in my work - not just average. She wants me to lose weight, but it's not top priority. It is a demonstration of the kind of self-control that she wants from me.

What I want from her is total honesty - no secrets - and real NC with OM. I don't want to have to sit at work wondering where my wife is, who she is with and what she is doing. I don't want to be lied to, to be given empty promises.

Of course there are other things that each of us wants - but these are the essential things for both of us.

In the second tier of "wants"...

I would like her to be less demanding - less selfish - more cooperative, more trusting.

Right now, it seems that everything I say to her she takes as a critisism or blame. She asks as if I am constantly trying to make her feel guilty. She often accuses me of trying to make her feel guilty. An overdeveloped sence of guilt is one of her chief problems. If I comment that it is raining, she might reply with an angry "Is that my fault?". Ok, it's not quite that bad, but almost.

Some of that could be attributed to mental illness - and in my view of the wedding vows, I cannot in good concience divorce her for mental illness. Nobody chooses to be depressed - or to suffer from an anxiety or stress disorder - no more than a person choses to have cancer or a bad back. I wish she would consistently take some kind of anti-anxiety therapy or medication. I think it would make her easier to live with.


I'm not sure. I think she does in general. The trouble is, I do not trust her to follow through on any commitment of NC with OM. So, what I want from her is hard for her to give. She could promise NC - and it would not mean anything to me. What I would have to see is a long pattern of behaviour which supported a claim that she had established NC and was commited to our marriage long term - "til death". I don't know how she would prove that to me. She has not even promised it. For a long time, she has treated me as a temporary husband - to be discarded when she is finished with me. She understands that this is unfair to me and feels bad about it, but from her perspective, she feels that she was forced to marry me (by her parents) as part of some high-sounding bridge between nations - and between churches. She feels that she was used as a pawn in some game her parents were playing.

So, if we have a future together, we have to get her family 100% out of our lives. Yeah, she can talk to them - and visit once a year, but we cannot allow them to have any influence over us at all. We agree on this - but it is very hard for her - as she has been dominated and manipulated by her parents since she was adopted. For almost her entire childhood she feared being "sent back" if she displeased her parents. She has constantly struggled to win their acceptance - which I believe they will never give. They will never acknowledge that she is a real person just as good as them. I think, and I shudder to think of it, that they are racists - who did a interracial (from their POV) adoption - which was equivalent to buying a slave - and they treated her accordingly. They treat her as if she was born a second-order being - not a real person like them. It makes me very angry that they treat her this way - and that she continually struggles to win their acceptance. I'll give you a quote from W's Mom : "I took you out of the dirt, and almost make you a person." I am horrified by that attitude. Her Mom and SIL are murderers of the spirit. They, by their every action toward W are trying to kill her spirit - to destroy all that is uniquely hers. I despise them for that.

It is because I was so angry with SIL that I wanted to at least delay the D long enough for her to get US citizenship - which is a desirable thing amongst many people in the world - so that she would be in that respect "better than" her SIL and her Mom(at least from some people's POV). And honestly, I would like to see the day when W realized that those people (who she elevates by calling them her family), have no power over her. I long to see the day when she realizes that they are a bitter losers sitting in a little dump of a town in the poorest region of a third-rate country. I long for her to see that the Church (capital C) is not defined by one legalistic little congregation in a small town on the coast of the Black Sea. I want W to see that she does not have to reject the Church (capital C) just because she had an abusive mother who went to one church - smiling and saying all the pious things - and then came home to call her daughter (now my W) every foul and ugly name, beat her, drag her by the hair, break her teeth.

I long for W to see that Grace is the essence of the Gospel - and that any church (small c) which preaches judgement and law alone - has sadly missed the point. I want to see her free from the power of these judgemental people. I want her to see that most important word in the Bible is the word "but" in the middle of Romans 6:23.


I've gotten off track, but I hope I have answered your Q's.

-AD

Hi, AD.

That is an interesting read.

Let me ask you one more question. Have you done a really good Plan A with your wife?

Gimble

Not trying to get off subject from Gimbles question to you AD, but after reading your latest post regarding her family I wonder if you could get your wife to read "The Road Less Traveled" a simple yet profound book.

It helped me to change some pretty mixed up thought patterns when I was about your wifes age and mixed up. Had some issue with my parents, not abuse of any kind but because of their addictions I was emotionally screwed up and unable to really separate from them in a healthy manner.

Just a thought

To my faithful readers, I say "thanks!"

Gimble,

Yes, I did a plan A - for a long time - in several sessions. Last year (or was it the year before), I had a thread on here called "100 days of PlanA". I usually shred my old threads after they had dropped well off the front page. I'm not sure if there is any useful info remaining in it. I found that in a full-out Plan A, I got very tired very quickly. I found it difficult to give and give and give while being treated badly by my W.

But in many ways, I've almost always been in Plan A. Right now, I'm switching over to something like that - after a couple of months of doing very little for her. I took her out to dinner last night, did some other things to make her feel a bit calmer.

Weaver,

I think I have that book. I've read it - and we have probably over a thousand books in the house. I have approximately zero success is getting my wife to read anything, but maybe if I find it and leave it lying around (keeping in mind that 100's of books are "lying around" in our house), she might pick it up. The bathroom is a good place to leave it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

W knows that her family's hold on her is pathalogical. She loves them - and cannot quite get out of their grip. When her Mom, Dad or one of her SIL's starts in on her, she reverts to little girl mode. She just cannot make herself set any boundaries with them. (And she has read some in the boundaries book.) After all, she is a PSYCH major! She knows, but she can't find the strength to break out. D'ing me is part of breaking out from her parents' control.

Lately she has been talking about buying a tiny house after the D rather than renting an apartment. She's been asking me to co-sign a loan for her to do that. (I'm not convinced yet.) She seems to not be thinking at all about a life with OM - but more about an independent life - with her own little house, which she can decorate however she wants. If she does that, I'll be proud of her, though I'll miss being a part of it.

Yesterday, I wrote a scathing letter to my MIL (and another to my BIL). I didn't send them - and probably won't. They would blow the sky off this little drama. I do have some power over MIL - she just hasn't realized it yet. She has a lot of American "friends" who think she is a wonderful, godly woman - and who visit and keep things going in their church etc. etc. I can pop that balloon - deflate her reputation.

W would be very angry with me if I did that. I understand. Just as I am enraged with her so-called family hurts her, she would defend them against all - whether they are right or wrong.

OK, gotta work now.

Thanks for reading.

-AD

Hi, AD.

Just in case it isn't obvious, your shouldn't co-sign on anything with her.

You have drawn some conclusions about your relationship and your wife's actions that may not be entirely accurate.

While I agree that character issues and family of origin issues add to the difficulty in repairing a relationship or maintaining one for that matter, I don't think that they automatically spell the end to a relationship or make for an impossible one to repair. I do agree with Harley that actually meeting your spouses needs on an ongoing basis does essentially 'affair proof' a marriage. That of course, requires both spouses to be willing.

From what you have written, I see a number of things that can be done to impact the remnants of your relationship in a positive way. Some of those would require a hard effort on your part, and I don't mean doormat. I outlined a few of those in a previous post.

If you are interested in making another go of it, and playing to win, let me know, I will be glad to help.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

Could you ellaborate on where you think my conclusions are inaccurate?

I agree with you (and with Harley), that meeting needs might affair-proof a marriage. Unfortunatly, amongst the things my W percieves as her most important needs are :
1) The appoval of her parents.
2) A young H who speaks her primary (linguistic) language.

I cannot give her those things.

It is especially painful for her that her parents approve of me, but do not approve of her. You can well imagine how much resentment that generates. Just as I prefer to blame OM than to blame my W, W prefers to blame me rather than blame her parents. (I don't know if I expressed that clearly.) If ever she had to choose between me and her parents, she would choose them. This is especially frustrating for me because I see how cruel they are to her - while I constantly try to build her up, they try to tear her down.

Of course, I'm interested in playing to win - and I'm looking forward to reading your suggestions. I don't mind hard effort.

BTW, my W called me a few minutes ago, just to thank me for being faithful to her. I guess I must be doing something right.

I forgot to say that I did go ahead and buy her a car (on e*bay) - and I'm flying up to Jersey this weekend to drive it home.

I think the postman (or letter carrier, since it is a woman) tried to deliver our D papers yesterday, (certified mail), but nobody was home to sign for them. I think uncontested papers don't have to be "served".

-AD

... and I'm driving W down to the INS office in B-ham tomorrow. Seems we don't have to go to Atlanta. By tomorrow afternoon, she'll have a stamp in her passport that's as good as a GC.

I don't plan to co-sign a loan with my w (or with the same person in her next incarnation as XW). If she wants independence, she'll have to learn about patience and perserverance.

I've been editing, refining, and shortening my letter to MIL. If I don't send it, the process still helps me to chrystalize my thoughts. Sending that letter is the kind of step that will cause irreversible change, for better or worse. So, I want to get it right. It would take this whole drama in a completely different direction. (A sure-fire, family-wide, multigenerational, intercontinental, relationship nuke). I'm trying to make it firm and direct (no problem there) without being needlessly disrespectful or manipulative - and without dragging in any extranious matters or people. I know MIL well enough to guess that she'll be shaking and trembling and crying for a week. If I overdo it, it will backfire big-time. For now, the process of composing it has helped me to relate to W in a better way. I must be absolutely sure that I do not do to her the things that her Mom does to her.

... back to work now...

-AD

Hi, AD.

I have a minor business emergency to deal with. I will get back to you sometime on Friday.

All the best,
Gimble

Dear AD,

Please get custody of your daughter. This is emotional abuse for a 4 year old and can lead to the next step of physical abuse. She is afraid of her mother and possibly fears physical retaliation. She should not be in this type of environment for any lenght of time. It will affect her for years to come.


Lisa V.

P.S. This is my first posting. Not working very well either. Learning the ropes.