Hi AD,

If it's "kinda" a plan B right now, are you going to write her a letter? Have you written her a letter?

BTW, my brother is an engineer. The man is a genius!

svb

JLS,

Thanks for stopping by. Of course you're my friend! Anybody who would read all this tiresome stuff would have to be a friend.

Yeah, plan B - that's what I'm supposed to be doing. It is very confusing.

On the one hand, I confess that I'm always glad when I see my wife. I'm even glad when I see a car that looks like hers. On the other hand, she has given me almost nothing but pain for a long time. Even if she gave up OM, there would still be major problems. I would love to work through them together with her, but I don't see any willingness from her.

So, for me, "Plan B" really means "Plan D" - but I still hold out some small hope that we will be able to save our marriage. I'm not clinging to that hope, because it's not the only hope.

svb1,

Hi!

No I didn't give her a letter.

But I have told her the plan B message, which is, in short:
1) "I love you."
2) "Get rid of OM, or I'm finished with you."

I'll start working on the letter. I was thinking about it as I mowed the endless sea of grass this weekend.

If your bro is a genius engineer then that would make you the sis of a genius. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My bro used to call me his "genius brother", but he's finally seen the light. Now he just calls me "brother".

-AD

:::FLASH NEWS:::

W recieved her citizenship interview letter today!
(she just called to tell me)

So, in mid-July, I will (not a Plan B thing, but I'm still her H and this is critical) drive her to the USCIS District Office and see if they'll agree to let her become a US citizen. (and then she'll have to wait for an oath ceremony to be scheduled)

I think we're both a bit saddened...

... maybe because soon we'll have no excuse to not be divorced.

W invited me to dinner. I said "another time." Oooohhh. That was hard to do. I would so love to hug her and celebrate with her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

-AD (and what good is an engineer in matters of the heart?)

Probably she's phoning OM right now to pass on the word. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

AD,

Here is a gentle reminder: Plan B is not Plan D.And Plan B is not get rid of OM or I am finished with you.To refresh your engineering memory here: it's all about loving your WW but that you cannot be in contact with her right now if she is still contacting OM.It hurts you and to protect the love you have for her,you need to do this.Then you park yourself in the dark waters of Plan B and heal,removed from the chaos and emotional grind of being with your WW who drags along OM with her wherever she goes and you gather strength,resolve and insight.And you AD can wait it out with the best of them so you can do Plan B for many months,as Dr.Harley suggested in his book.

You could go on essentially forever with the revolving door your WW goes in and out of(your life)but that is not good for you,your marriage or anyone.You have got to cut her off AD.Now is the best time with a new home and the means with which to be on your own.There is no "kinda" in Plan _blank.You're either in or out.NO WAFFLING.

O

O'girl,

I'm sure you're right.

But just now, the reciept of this letter from the USCIS (formerly INS) is an event toward which we have worked for 6 years. It is very painful to not be able to celebrate it - to be sad - on a day which should be glad.

I still have to interact with my wife - in parenting, if nothing else, and right now, we do not have a functioning visitation plan. There is a visitation schedule written in our as-yet-unfiled uncontested divorce papers, but W (reasonably) says since niether of have signed the thing and it hasn't been filed, it does not bind us - which means I have to force something to happen - or at least threaten - to get overnights with my child.

Meanwhile, I have to get a lot more stuff out of "our" house (where WW lives) - and do a lot of work to prepare it for sale.

I cannot see any reason why she would chose me.
I cannot see any reason why she would chose OM either.

I'm not fun, and I did a lousy Plan A.
He's not finacially able to support her.

Plan B is supposed to be the time when she misses me.
She will miss me, but perhaps not in the right sort of way.

I'm just rambling here. I've got to appear cheerful and focussed and optimistic and busy.... (yeah right).

I trudge on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

-AD

I still think that is the essence of it: To remove myself from her - while making sure she knows that if she does whatever it takes to put OM out of the picture, I can still be 100% hers - til death.

I'm sorry but what you are telling me are excuses.

1) There is no reason not to be supportive and congratulate your WW on receiving USCIS but it's not something that you can relate to the same way anymore.Your WW may want OM to be more involved than you.Who's to say but it doesn't change the fact that you have to have a plan and stick with it.Anyone in Plan B knows that you have to forgo certain events,dinners,plans,schedules,etc if you are trying to show your WW that you will not tolerate anymore of her behavior.

2) Parenting can be done:separately.Many of us have done it.I have myself.You get a Mediator involved,other willing family member,friend,etc to handle transitions and pick ups or drop offs if the children are very young or let them transition in the driveway or at the front door without you meeting.You use a Mediator to communicate all necessary e-mails and important messages.You MAKE a plan to visit your child,both of you and agree,if unable, legal separation may be the option.Many have done it,I almost did but my WH,living far enough away,made it easy for me to be the primary caretaker while he agreed to EOW visitis.This is what we still have set up now during the D proceedings.It is a choice not to accomplish this task.

3) You remove all belongings that are yours from joint home while WW is not home.You make arrangements to do this with her via Intermediary to maintain Plan B.Just ask graycloud.You prepare for sale separately.

4) You cannot see any reaosn for WW to choose because you and OM are enabling her.She has no reason to change since both are accepting of her behavior.

5) You CAN be fun(choice) and OM is NOTHING.He is a user and opportunist.Money always is a factor at some point.Someone accustomed to living well financially will most likely miss it.In time.

6) Plan A is not a time that WW is supposed to miss you.How can she miss what is right there for her? Plan B is the time that that will hopefully happen.

You can trudge on AD or you can grab those reins and steer your life where you want it to go.Choice.

All of this is said with utmost sincerity AD.

O

O'girl,

I really appreciate you taking the time to think about my case.

Most of my commentators have fled the thread.

I'm sure I don't know what I'm doing - except I understand how to get a D.

I don't know if anything else is possible.

OK, O'girl, I have some more excuses for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The use of intermediaries in handing off the child is specifically forbidden by the courts here. The parents are expected to be able to get along better than that. We're not under court orders yet, but I don't want to do something that I already know to be viewed unfavorably by the court. They do approve of - and recommend - having one parent drop the child off at school or daycare and the other parent pick her up. We'll try to do it that way next week. W is in classes now almost every day - and I could pick DD up from preschool to avoid one meeting.

Clearing out the house while she is not there is a possibility - requires I hire a mover (two men and a truck at least). I have a lot of stuff - or at least it seems to me.

There is work to be done in preparing that house for sale. Some of it I have to do. The yard work I might can hire out, but mostly it would be silly to hire somebody to do it. Selling that house is the #1 element of my financial relief. If W moves to an apt, I will have to start paying temporary allimony, and I'll eventually have to start pulling $$$ from my retirement account, which I would like to avoid. Until then, I fish for credit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope to comment further on your post ... in a little while.

UPDATE:

I talked WW into giving me DD4 for a few hours this afternoon. Saturday, I hope to have her all day. Next wednesday, I hope it will be the first mid-week overnight. We shall see.

The plan is that I will go home (to my home) after work. W will bring DD - and should arrive about the same time as I do. I will return DD to W's home in about 3 hours.

W wanted to stay and hang around. I told her no.

It was a huge struggle - almost an hour on the phone to get even this.
I had to threaten to file for D myself (which would automatically put us under temporary visitation orders - resulting in DD being with me from mid-June to mid-July), in order to get to to work with me on this.

We want to do an uncontested D - after W gets her citizenship.

There is more, but I can't process it enough to even write it down. I'll try.

Basicly W says if I had done this or that, things would be different. One key thing she says is that she could give up OM if she could "trust me".

By "trust me", she means trust me not to hurt her emotionally.

I don't often critisize her.

Probably on 3 occations in our marriage I called her a name. She remembers those occations and repeats it to me as an example of how bad I am. She calls me names almost every day - and constantly critisizes.

I'm not perfect, but my offenses are relatively infrequent.

Once in a argument about "family", I said something about her relationship with her family which really hurt her feelings. W is adopted. She had been going on and on about how worthless my family is - finally saying that my brother and nephew are "nobody" to our daughter. I said "they are her only blood relations". W was really really hurt by that. I shouldn't have said it. I doesn't really reflect what I think about family, but I can tell you that if I say a good thing 100 times and a bad thing once, my w will say "Now I know what you really think." I don't think she really believes that I think that - but she tries to use it against me somehow.

Last night, she said that because I said that, she could never be married to me.

I know, smoke, fog, etc. But there is a kernel in it. I did hurt her - and she is afraid that I will hurt her more.

But, most of the phone convo was like this.

Her: "you did so and so and such and such".
Me: "When are you going to get rid of OM".
Her: "That's not the issue!"
Me: "Your affair with OM is the central issue of our marriage."
Her: "You're not listening to me. I never wanted to marry you."
Me: "So, that makes the affair ok?"
Her: "You hurt me."
Me: "So, that make the affair ok?"
Her: "You're not listening to me!!!"
.... etc .etc.

In that part, I think I did OK.

-AD

Mornin AD,

Boy do I know what you mean about saying that ONE bad thing...My H has one of those things that he brings up that I said.

I think that you are doing fine. My H says that he cannot "trust" me either. He would do everything I want, if that would guarantee our M! As if?

Maybe after you get settled, you can set up a fixed visitation and proceed with a strong Plan B. It is very hard with young children, I can see that. I have S7 and I keep thinking that IF I decided to go to B, there would be things that would keep coming up. And it wouldn't be fair to have D14 try to deal with this stuff, and she would probably get caught in the middle.

Good Luck ADE,

jls

What is your W's nationality,btw?

Hi AD,

Ok.So no intermediaries.Then pick up and drop offs are brief,only important specific information to be translated and then that's it.You wouldn't be the first person,nor the last,not to be able to have a mediator/intermediary.But if you exhaust all avenues then you have to do the next best thing.It's not perfect but it's what you have.Since your DD is only 4 she is too young to be at the door alone or in the driveway.The idea is to keep as much distance as possible between you and your WW.She cannot just leisurely come over and chat or stay for an hour,etc,etc.Not in Plan B.And any Plan A'ing should be long gone.You HAVE to know what you are doing AD,especially with something like this.You cannot float along without a plan.You will not solve anything.It's like 2longs story.I can't even go there.I would be frustrated out of my mind(sorry 2long if you read this).

Clearing out the home.Why not have a friend join you instead of a mover? I don't know what kinds of things you have to move(i.e. big,heavy furniture) but that may be an option.Some guys from work? Tell them you can "pay them" for their time with some cold drinks and great sandwiches,etc.Prepping the home for sale does not mean you and WW have to be there at the same time.

Pulling money out of your Retirement account is a big NO NO.Make sure you have exhausted all other options first.Don't jeopardize your future.Remind me: is your WW working too? If not she should be.Financial matters will have to be dealt with legally eventually.Even if it's just separation.An uncontested D is a smart way to go but just beware.You can save a lot of money not going through adversarial Lawyers but you also want to be protected.

Now to the updates.I can say with all certainty that no one here is perfect and we have all said things,at one time or another,that have hurt those we care about.Either obviously or subversively.But how we deal with that is to directly tell those that have said these things how it hurts us and not to do it again.It erodes the relationship.

Your conversation is also misguided,if I may say so,on both sides.For you,the OM is not the central issue.He has to be gone, ABSOLUTELY, in order for you to have a chance here but it's more about WHY your WW made the decision to cheat and why she continues on the road to destruction.It's what is going on inside HER.OM is a user and also has problems.Two wrongs do not make a right.

Your WW is laying on you the same lines we hear all the time.She never wanted to marry you(BS) and you hurt her,avoiding the elephant in the room.If your WW never wanted to marry you,then why did she? Hmmm.That would stop her in her tracks.She is blind to the fact that OM would hurt her too,in time.It's a fact of human nature.Most people slip up.When I was with my WH I can't remember too many(any?) things I have said that were blatantly hurtful but it was more vague.I used to be upset with him,for example,that he spent so much time on the computer when he was home.It was bad enough he was at work a lot on the thing but then to come home and hop on again,I was mad.He was supposed to be with his family.It was family time and I had expressed my feelings on this many times.I felt like he was chained to the darn thing.Addicted.

So, I said a few things that I know he took offense to.But I usually take a moment to think before I respond to anyone.I have been like that for a long time.I don't just blurt out the first thing on my tongue.Anyway,point is,no one is a Saint.We have faults.It's working on being our best that is rewarding.It's also what I think can draw the WS and BS back to marriage is they each know that they can work at being the best partners they can be,for themselves and each other and their families.Your WW can use the excuse that you could hurt her again as long as she likes but it is just avoiding the obvious and she as well,most definitely,has hurt you too.Doesn't get you anywhere if you keep playing the blame game.

Well,I have to get ready for work soon.I'll check back again later on~ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O

O'girl,

Here's a couple of links to some older threads of mine for background.

My recent threads were not brought over from the old system,
Help me come up with a last try.

and

I'm filing soon.

We have worked through the division of property and all arrangements and have already had a lawyer draw up papers - which we are sitting on pending W's citizenship case. I'm sure I'm protected pretty well. I'm getting over 90% of our assets - much of which is in my retirement accounts - or in the value of "my" house. The visitation plan, while not 50/50 is pretty good and can be obtained without a big fight. All we have to do is update the papers a bit and pay the filing fee and we'll be D'ed in 30 days.

As for taking money from retirement, rest assured that I understand my financial situation quite well and would in the worst imaginable case not take out more than 5% of my retirement money.


W, herself said essentially the same thing on the phone last night. But, what's going on inside her is that she is an unwilling immigrant, and an unwilling wife.

Her parents sent her abroad at 17 to study. She didn't want to go. She was adopted internationally at the age of 6, out of a war situation. Since her adoption, she has clung to her Mom for dear life. Being sent abroad meant losing the language and culture she had fought for 11 years to be assimilated into. Now she had to start over, to try to find a place where she belongs. As she said last night this is not her home. Even though she wants citizenship, she does not feel at home here.

From her point of view, and I agree with it, her parents "made her" marry me. I didn't understand that an "American son-in-law" was considered a prize for them, and they were willing to sacrifice their daughter to get it. When W wanted to delay or cancel the marriage, they told her "We will never speak to you again if you do not marry AD. You are nothing without him.". I cannot comprehend a parent who would tell their daughter that. With her background, with her emotional dependency on her Mom, this was equivalent to holding a gun to her head. I 100% believe her that she did not, at the time of the wedding, want to marry me. Maybe at the time of the engagement, but not at the time of the wedding.

So, let's consider OM...

OM speaks her language - is from the same (or closely similar) culture. I cannot give her that. I know the language a little, and I could become fluent if we went to live there for awhile, and I have been willing to live there if I can find a job there, but she will never be able to have that feeling of home which she had in her adopted home for 11 years - because of differences of language and culture it just doesn't feel right for her - and she needs more of comfort and security than most people - due to her background of an early childhood in war.

In short, I can't give her what she says she needs. I thought I knew what she needed when we married, but I was wrong. I though security, peace, and being taken care of would be enough, but it isn't.

More later.

-AD

AD,

You sound remarkebly good in spirit. Hope you are as peaceful as you sound.

Of course you would not be at this place of finalization if you were not(at peace somewhat) I suppose.

Take care,

Ogirl, so good to see you posting again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi AD,

I will check back in the morning but I did read what you said.I am glad you reminded me of your WW's past.I had forgotten some of it though not all.

The first thing that comes to my mind now is: just let her go.If she is so "unhappy" and there are cultural differences and familial issues and she felt pressured into marrying you,then set her free.I feel like this is the most loving thing you could do for her.It's not just about marriage(it never is) but so many other things too.She is not a teen anymore and there is no one holding the equivalent of a gun to her head anymore right? Maybe there is.

I will have to mull this over more.

L8tr.

O

P.S I didn't mean to imply that you aren't aware of your own financial obligations and concerns but I always worry about people reaching into their future savings to float the present.Anyway,forget I mentioned it.

Ogirl,

I read a little on your thread about your STBXH telling the girls about his "ho". I'm very sorry for your pain.

An aside on finance and plumbing
I don't mind you giving me a little financial lecture. My brother took his entire 401k out to make a major plumbing repair on his house - at a time when the market was low. People have to live their own lives. His reality was he wouldn't have any water (except a puddle in his yard) unless he fixed that - and his puny little 401k was all he had. I'm in better shape than that, for which I'm truely grateful to God.

But my brother has a great 10-year-old boy, who's going to grow up and take care of him when he's old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So, he won't need the money. And he has a wife who, while having her issues, nevertheless sticks by him even though he's poor and works all the time. I'd trade the fat IRA for that anyday.

About my wife
I like to think of it as "setting her free." But, that lump of excrement who led her astray... I can't think of much good about him. He would have been an OK guy - if he didn't pursue a married woman for 6 years - and destroy a little child's family. I asked my W (in that long phone convo) if OM was worth it - considering that because of him she will be separated from her child 1/4 of the time. That on top of the loss of financial and social status - and of course, a husband who loves her. She said it didn't have anything to do with him. Perhaps she's right.

I've got to stop thinking about it.

Update

W called 3 times while DD was at my house last night. I returned DD on time - not early - just 5 minutes before I said I would. W tried to have an argument with me about empty boxes! Amazing. Empty boxes! OOPs, I forgot again to put those two little carboard boxes in the trunk and drop them off at her house so she can pack books. Is that worth an argument?! In the midst of all this?

So, an hour after I dropped DD off (or a little less), W called. I was grocery shopping. She starting talking. I couldn't hear very well - metal roof on that building. The important thing is she asked when she should move to an apartment. I said ASAP. She's worried that they will not give her a lease since she has no official income. When we are D'd, she can show them the decree with the CS and temporary alimony. I told her just to talk to the apartment manager - who is a friend of ours and see what she can come up with. If I need to sign the lease, or lend her money for 6 months prepaid rent, we can work it out. We'll just take her rent out of her part of the equity in the house when it is sold. We might even can get a HELOC on the house and take the money from that. She wanted me to go with her to the apartment office. I said "no".

It would be nice to get the house on the market during the summer. Otherwise, it might not sell til next spring. I don't think we can sell it with her in it - just too messy.

Rambling here. Sorry.

Oh, and I still "wish" I could have a real marriage with my W.
I feel a mix of guilt (for abandoning her emotionally) and loss.

-AD

Weaver,

No, I'm not really calm and such.

I've been so messed up I can't think for the last few years. I'm just pretending to be calm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes you just have to admit that it's all out of control - and just be like an ant on a warship in a sea battle. Just keep doing my little ant thing and don't worry about being blown up or sinking - 'cause there's nothing I can do about it.

<Ant thinks, "Oh, there's a grain of sugar somebody dropped over there. Alright!">

-AD

Oh, I forgot to say that I called the DNA lab yesterday, the "scientist" seemed confused about what I ordered and where the papers were. He said he would get the report together and send it to me "today or tommorow" - which would be "yesterday or today" now. It didn't happen yesterday.

It would be nice to have "proof" (even if it might be inadmissable as evidence due to "chain of control" issues - not sure about that). I will definitely present it to W for her comments. <where's the smoke out of the ears icon when you need it?>

UPDATE:

DNA lab promised results yesterday (not the same yesterday in the previous post, but a new yesterday). I still didn't get the results.

W called yesterday evening - maybe 6:30. She asked where I was.

Me: "At the office"
She:"Oh, I thought you would be at home. We came by and wanted to come visit you."
Me:"Oh, well, I'm at the office"
She: "We did this and that..."
Me: <nothing>
She: "OK, .. uh.. well, bye now."

Then, while I was working on something at home, she called again about 9pm. She told me that she had been to the dentist and she needed two crowns/caps (whatever they call them). I told her she could take money from her IRA to pay for them, if she couldn't live without them. She said "YOU WILL PAY FOR THEM." I said "goodnight, wife" - and hung up.

Now, I feel guilty.

She is my wife. I have an obligation to take care of her.

What say ye? hello! is anybody reading? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any opinions?

Should I tell her to ask OM for the money - maybe to repay the $1200 (of money I earned) she sent to him by WesternUnion a few years ago?

-AD

Hi AD -

Guilt is something that I deal with too. It's hard to know where to draw the line, isn't it?

My attorney (who seems to double as a counselor these days) told me that I need to anticipate that WW will call me asking for money. He said I need to decide what my response will be beforehand.

Of course, my court order (temporarily) says I have to pay her med bills, so that's a non-issue right now.

Georgia

Georgia,

The pain of saying "no" may be worse than the financial pain of paying.

I really feel bad about it - almost to the point of tears.