Since my threads didn't make it over to the new forum, I wanted to get my story back on here to ask you all for more help.

Background

My wife and I have been together for 10 years, married for the past two.

My wife is 29
I am 32
The OM is 24 and unattached with no kids

Also, we have no kids, but had just started trying to have them in the 6 months before D-Day.

There is no physical or substance abuse involved by either of us.

Here are my first posts here on my wife's A, D-Day, and the beginning of my struggle -- it took me a month after D-Day to be able to put things out there in the forum:

My story...and exposure?

And then came what I like to call E-Day (Exposure Day). I flew across the country for a day and spoke with my WW's father, as well as her mother/stepfather. I then promptly flew back and spoke with two of her best friends the following day.

This next thread describes my initial reservations on exposing, and then with the help of WAT, down but trying, coach, Bob, MelodyLane, cwmac and many others, my eventual decision to expose and my WW's demonlike reaction to it....

Exposure and the Aftermath

I can't begin to thank everyone for the support I've received so far in this forum -- it's amazing how much care and support can come from people I've never met before.

My story continues now, so please keep with me through this.

Squiggle

In the week following exposure, my WW had told me that she never wanted to speak to me again, so I stopped calling her. Amazingly, after a few days she called me and said she had to stop by the house that night and maybe she'd see me there. She also had a completely different tone to her voice -- no anger at all.

She came over that night and stayed for ~90 minutes. We were both smiling and relaxed, and for those 90 minutes, I almost felt like she was my wife again. She took off her shoes, layed on the couch, and we talked about our day and what we've been doing lately. We played with our puppy and then I helped book her a flight to go home and see her parents. There was a sort of calmness to the situation which was nice. Neither of us brought up R talk, and we were both in pretty good moods.

I suggested that we get something to eat and then she said that she would rather not. She said, in a quiet way, "I think this is all the progress I can take for one night." (It was nice to hear the word "progress" come out of her mouth). I didn't ask her again about dinner, and told her that I agreed we should keep it "short and sweet."

Two days later, we had another similar interaction. She even brought home a couple new things for the house. This time, though, I had already made plans to go out (it was a Saturday night), so I didn't ask her about dinner. She hinted a lot, but never came out and asked me to do something with her. I was at least smart enough to realize that OM probably was home for Easter weekend, so I questioned her motives.

Well, that night she finally got in touch with one of her friends that I exposed to, and she found out that the exposure went further than her parents. She was again irate and called me several times, although my cell was in my car when I was out, so I couldn't return her call until the morning.

When I called her in the morning (Easter morning), she yelled at me more for "lying" to her by not telling her that I talked to her friends, and she said a lot of hurtful things to me, eventually hanging up on me. I didn't call her back, as I knew it wouldn't help things.

(continued)

Another two days passed, and she called me.

She said that she is still extremely angry that I went "behind her back" and she thinks I've destroyed her relationship with her parents and friends. Even though I tried to reassure her that her parents and friends have not "turned against her" and that my intentions were entirely to save our M, she of course didn't believe me.

The other thing she tells me is that she now has "no choice" but to agree to go to Marriage Counseling. She qualifies it, though, by telling me that she is not doing it because she wants to stay with me, but only because it will make our D easier and it will show people that she tried.

I didn't know how to respond, so I could only tell her that I needed some time to think about it and I'd talk to her that night. I wanted to make sure that I didn't say anything that I didn't mean, and especially that I didn't say anything stupid. Also, even though she qualified her agreement to go to MC, I did not want to qualify my response.

That night, I met her at a coffeeshop for 45 minutes. We made small talk for most of the time, and then she eventually asked me if there was anything in particular I wanted to say.

My response was that "I wanted to say, in person, thank you for agreeing to marriage counseling." And I left it at that.

She then started in a little with explaining how angry she was with me and that MC may not turn out well, but she did so in a calm way. I told her I understand her anger, and that I was sorry to have caused stress in her family/friend relationships. But I told her that even though I may have done the wrong thing, I wouldn't have done it if I didn't care for her so much. That has to count for something. Also, I told her I realized that MC may not solve our problems, but that it gave us the best chance.

She mentioned that now she has to decide what to do about her "situation" (OM), and I did not make any demand or offer her any advice. I also didn't ask her when we should schedule the first MC appointment. I'm not sure if I should have been more firm on NC or on pinning her down on an appointment date/time, but instead I decided to let our interaction end on a positive note, only telling her that I'd talk to her "soon" and "we'll figure out the details."

(continued)

I have found that a good rule of thumb in exposure is totalk about it to the WS. Their usual exclamation is "If you tell my mom, father, pastor, boss then the marriageis over"

Bang, you have your exposure list via your WS's own lips.

Expose,expose, and expose

Two days later (Thursday), I asked her if she could let me know her available times for MC, and I asked her if she had preferences for male/female, what part of town, and how she wanted to go about choosing a MC.

She was leaving to visit her parents on Saturday, so she asked me to let her get through the weekend first, and we'll talk about it when she gets back. Again, I didn't push it, although it made me wonder whether she was changing her mind again about MC.

So now she is with her parents and it seems that this weekend may go a long way in deciding the fate of our M. She did call me when she arrived there, and I told her I wouldn't be calling her over the weekend, so she could take care of the things that she wanted to without my interference. She also mentioned that she finally bought some furniture (couch and coffeetable) for her apartment and that it will arrive on Tuesday when she returns from the trip -- kind of a bad sign, but nothing I can control.

So....what do you all think? Do you see anything in my situation either hopeful or not hopeful? Have I been handling things okay? Or am I still being too much of a safety net for her? Do you think she'll follow through with MC, and if she does, is it more important to get her there than to worry that she is only doing it to "save face"?

Squiggle

Excellent history Squiggles...thank you for that.

The first thing that struck me was your thought you did something wrong by exposing. You were simply the news reporter...it was the news and the people in the news that have something to be ashamed of...you were merely the reporter...the mesenger. NEVER apologize for that...even to her. You can say, you were sorry she was hurt. Let her know you did her a favor...they were going to find out eventually after our D.

I always liked to talk to my WH in D talk and the end of our R...it seems to be what the WS is looking forward to, but never thinks of it as more than a fantasy. I never threatened it, but just mentioned it as though it were their idea.

She is trying to manipulate you to do what she wants (which is to continue the M and she can continue to cheat...)by threatening you with anger, silence, and D.

DO NOT engage in MC while there is still contact...it is a waste of time and money. It just releives some of her guilt that she "tried". Tell her you will be happy to join her in MC once there is NC and she is willing to work on the M, but otherwise, she can seek IC.

What have you been doing about a Plan A? What problems were there before the A, and what was your part in that? What ENs were you ignoring, and what were your worst LBs? And what are you doing about them?

Squiggle, I wouldn't pursue the MC thing, let her pursue it since she is really the one with the problem and is likely not serious about saving your marriage at this point. I would also caution you about choosing marriage counselors as most are NOT PRO-MARRIAGE. Did you know that? They do not understand the dynamics of an affair and can help destroy your marriage by encouraging a divorce. If you want to go to counseling, I would STRONGLY recommend Steve Harley. He can assess your situation and is often very clever in bringing the WS aboard. His PRO-marriage and specializes in adultery.

As far as everything else goes, I would simply bide your time and work on Plan A. Make sure you have taken all important exposure opportunities and try your best to meet her needs.

Any exposure opportunities in the case of the OM? Such as his momma? My boy is 23 and I ASSURE you there would hell to pay if I found out my son was consorting with a married woman. That would end the affair REAL QUICK!

StillHere -- Yeah, I don't want MC without NC. I'm just not sure if I should give an ultimatum on it now or bring it up in the first MC session. Also, WW and I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago, where she said she realized that NC will be necessary if we go into MC (not sure if she still feels that way, though).

As for Plan A, I was doing a pretty good job until exposure hit. Now, I hardly see or talk to her, but I still Plan A when I do. It's hard to meet her needs when we haven't had much contact for the past two weeks. She seemed to be coming around last week until she realized the exposure included her friends. The effect it had was almost like a 2nd exposure (even though I did them all together).

MelodyLane - But don't you think that getting her into MC is important? I agree that she may not be serious, but I'll never know unless I try. I guess I just have some hope that getting her in there talking about us will help her at least consider reality and what she is losing in our M.

I'd love to have Steve Harley do our MC, but I have doubts about doing MC by phone (how does that work, anyway?). I also think this may make WW take it even less seriously. Does he have a referral network for major cities (I live in Houston)? How do I know if a counselor is Pro-Marriage?

And as for OM exposure, I could probably find out where his parents live if I did some more digging, but do you really think that would help my M? If I move to more exposure, OM's parents and WW/OM's coworkers would be next on the list. I'm just hoping it doesn't come to that, as it will get ugly fast.

Also, this is complicated by the fact that I feel like I am rapidly losing interest in staying with this woman who used to be my wife. It's at the point where even if she comes around, I'm having doubts that I would want her back.

Squiggle

Squiggle, I don't think MC will be very helpful if she's not serious, especially if she is still in the affair. Unfortunately, MC is not the magic bullet that most seem to think and, oftentimes, does more harm than good. I can't tell you how many times folks have been recommended to just "accept divorce" when a fogged out WS stated that desire in counseling. That is why I recommend Steve Harley. He can do in 2 sessions what most can never do, because he won't waste your time, he will assess your situation and give you a good direction. He is a highly experienced, credentialed, professional MC who specializes in adultery. He is one of the leading MC in the US and well worth every penny, IMO.

You would start off counseling on your own and SH would decide at what point - if at all - to bring in your W. But the important point here, Squiggle, is that your W is not likely to benefit from MC at this juncture. There are no magic words that any counselor can say to her to wake her up. SH can occasionally reach them; exposure and other various pressures can reach them sometimes, but mostly it is the end of the affair that allows reality to come back in. Which is why Plan A is so focused on methods to hasten the end of the affair, ie: exposure, etc.

And I would very much consider exposing to the OM's parents. It would put great pressure on the OM and force him to explain his affair to his parents. Now THAT could be UGLY! I am not so sure about exposing to co-workers, though. What is the situation there?

dont waste a penny on anyone else if possible....go with steve...he is the best and he is no nonsense...the whole time is making a plan to save the marriage.....i have wasted so much money on a counselor other than steve....steve did in 2 sessions what this other guy(who is very well known and well trained) couldnt do in 8 months!!!!!

Squiggle,
I agree with Melodaylane and everyone else who said that marriage counseling is pointless unless there is NC.
My WH and I went just a few days after Dday and the counselor told him that we shouldn't bother coming back unless he has stopped contacting her. (Talk about a slap in the face.)



He did continue to contact her and then promised NC about 2 1/2 months after Dday . Your statement about giving an ultimatum may not do much good. I know that my WH promised NC only because I was crying so hard and so upset that he was still in love with OW -- he didn't know what else to do!
So, he changed his email, started showing me phone records but never really stopped contacting her. I guess what I'm trying to say is he was not ready to stop seeing her, ultimatum from me or not.
I truly believe now that an affair does have to die it's own natural death. I believe that exposure does certainly help that along. When I did the exposure thing, I told my WH that I was going to tell everyone I knew, and I did. I am amazed that he was not even mad at me. He completetly understood why, he said.

After he promised NC, he even went as far as to go back to MC with me and pretend that his A was over. uGHHH!! So hard to know if they are being truthful or not.

Okay, getting a little nervous tonight. WW returns tomorrow, and I'm of course wondering what happened this weekend with her family.

ML/nikko/suzy - I absolutely agree about NC -- I think I'll be forced to bring it up to WW if/when we talk about MC when she returns. I've been thinking a lot about the scenarios lately, and I don't think she has it in her to end the A -- she has been brainwashed too much, and I don't think she's capable of doing the right thing. I'm expecting her to say something like, "Okay, I'll give you what you want and go to MC, but I will not agree to your 'terms' to stop seeing OM." I say that because the day after D-Day, that was exactly what she said. And it led to an argument on the pointlessness of MC if she won't stop her A (my words) and on how I always have to get my way and do things on my terms (her words). See, she likes to play the game that I am the controlling/manipulative one, when she has had all the control and been a maestro manipulator since the A began.

nikko -- If you get the chance, please let me know more about your experience with SH's phone MC. Did you put him on speakerphone? Didn't you feel strange trusting a MC that you never get to see in person? How did you spouse feel about SH?

Squiggle

I've tried to post twice and it hasn't worked.

Read my story on Just Found Out, Feb. 26. I've heard much of the same things you have from WW. "I'm a liar too" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've had three sessions with Steve Harley. Don't waste your money with others, I already have. I filled three pages of notes in one hour. He talked to WW for almost 2 hours while she's still in fog. Some E-mail contact continues.

Steve will help you develop a plan and execute.

Good luck.

Well, it's 11 PM here. WW returned home from her trip this morning, and never followed through on contacting me to talk (as she had said she would).

I am making an appointment with an attorney for Thursday. Sad but true. I am exhausted and ready to face reality, with or without my WW.

Squiggle

Squiggles, please consider counseling with SH before you take that step. He can assess your situation and give you a plan. Divorce is final, your anger is not. I have seen far worse situations than yours result in reconciliation with a good, solid plan.

So after WW didn't call me yesterday, I confirmed from my sources that she spent the night over OM's apartment. I'm not so much surprised to hear that, but I am hurt that she didn't even have the courtesy to call me. So much for the weekend doing any good.

Then, she calls me this AM (probably right after leaving OM's place) and says she wants to e-mail me a list of times she is available for counseling. I told her that we should first talk later tonight.

What is the deal? I am comfortable filing for D right now, but she's doing just enough to make me have a tiny doubt about it. I just don't see MC helping us with the OM still in the picture. Not to mention that I can't trust anything she says, so even if she says there is NC, how will I really know? I mean, she doesn't even live at home, she has a phone and e-mail at work, etc.

I also think filing for D will help me to start planning for the future -- MY future. And there is still a 60-day waiting period here in TX. WW is incabable of making a big decision like this, so maybe she needs to know that I have reached the end of my rope. If things turn around, then great -- and we can cancel the D. But if they stay the same, then I'm ready to move on and stop being treated like this.

I did call for an appointment with SH today, but there are no slots available. I'd really like to talk to him before tonight, so I'll try again later to see if there are any cancellations.

Squiggle

Squiggs,
Hope you’re feeling stronger. I don’t know if you realize it but you’ve made tremendous strides. You’re light years ahead of where you were just a few short weeks ago. So let me make a few observations and suggestions if you will.

1. You should’ve completed the exposure procedure by getting in touch with her employer. In fact, if you’re seriously considering plan D, then before going all the way I would do that first. Squiggs your WW needs to have her back to the wall. She needs to feel the total pressure of living with her choices, as does the OM! I guarantee you that right now they both are feeling like they’ve dodged the bullet. As for you, you can’t do things in half measure and expect 100% results. With all do respect to those who urge caution, I say no, never, not for a second. In fact, if you can afford it, take out full-page ads in your local newspaper!

2. Your WW is blowing smoke. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if any of her interaction with you at this point, is an attempt on her part to exercise damage control and to keep you from causing her and he little “soul mate” any more problems.

3. So, how should you now behave? With quiet confidence and an assertive attitude, but at the same time you have to manage being non-aggressive and confrontational in showing her this side of you. To do so, all you have to do is listen! Stop talking, calling her, or having any contact with her that she doesn’t initiate. More specifically, stop apologizing to her for anything! No more “I’m sorries” to her about anything! No more explanations to her about anything! None! Just stop! She is a fogged out Martian and isn’t capable of hearing you! Don’t you get it yet? So stop talking so much and instead, you do the listening! Let her talk, babble, complain, call names or say anything she wants to say. It all means nothing!

4. You do not go into MCing with her at this point! You don’t need to tell her this but that is where you need to be. Instead, if she pushes the issue of MCing, tell her to find some one and check back with you for days on which you may be available! And if she doesn’t so what? She is the one trying to hold you off! Let her do the worrying about what you may end up doing. When she comes to you, (if she comes to you) with times for counseling, equivocate! Tell her you’re so sorry and that you’re just so busy and ask her to get another time and then do it all over again, and again and again. Push her…make her concentrate on something other the OM and her affair.

5. Exposure doesn’t end with a single conversation. Keep in contact with her family and friends. E-mail them with up dates as to what’s going on. Right now she’s in damage control! I would bet anything that her family believes that she’s already in MCing! I would bet anything that she’s told them just enough of what she thinks they want to hear to keep them off her back. You’re job is to keep the pressure on her and the affair. To make the affair to emotionally expensive for her. Wear her down and tire her out. Cause her to seek emotional support from the OM! Look Squiggs, the OM is there for the good times, sex and fun. When she goes running to him for true love and support for her problems what do you think that it will do to their romance? LOL Make them walk the walk! If it’s true love let them prove it to themselves.

6. Don’t be running to a lawyer so fast. You’ve got nothing but time. Back off a bit and play with her for a while. Let her squirm for a while. As for you, make sure that you are good and busy with new friends and activities. Don’t be so damned available to her. Get yourself a new haircut and some new cloths. Time is your friend. Use it wisely.

More latter .
Coach

ditto all the others


Don't you think it's pretty ugly right now?

Your earlier exposure had the desired effect. Made her uncomfortable as hell and she still talks to you, right? But it obviously wasn't enough.

Time for another round. Repeat the prior exposure and expand the circles. She has probably told her parents that she plans to attend counseling with you to combat the exposure first round. They may think all is better. Have you updated them?

Squig - this is hardball. If you are sure you want a divorce, pass GO, do NOT collect $200 and file - you have ample grounds. Otherwise, play hardball and expose some more.

WAT

Okay, here's the deal. WW wants to go to MC, and she has supposedly stopped "seeing" OM. However, she is still talking to him on the phone -- she says that if the first 2-3 MC sessions go well, she promises to go NC with him. But she is not willing to do it until she sees that we are making progress.

What do I do? I've already told her that she had to go NC prior to MC, but is this a doable compromise? Or is it just another delay tactic to put off a decision she must make? I realize it's not fair to me, but is it worth the risk for the potential longer term good?

If we don't go into MC, then I'm filing for D early next week -- I've already decided that. Because of our geographical issues (I'm moving 1000 miles away in July, with or without her), this is the time to put up or shut up.

Please help me here, as this is an extremely important decision.

Squiggle

Squiggle,

If you capitulate to her going to MC while still being in contact with the OM then you are not just wasting your money but your time as well. Furthermore, her going to MC under these conditions will only alleviate her conscience and 'justify' that she 'tried' to make the marriage work but that it was too late. Do not let yourself be a party to this sham [Something false or empty that is purported to be genuine] attempt of hers and stand your ground on this matter.

TMCM