Do you think that an MC session might assist you in getting NC? If so it might help. My FWW didn't really accept that she had had an A until our MC agreed with me. So it helped move things along. Otherwise, my understanding is that MC is pretty useless if NC hasn't been established. It seems to be a positive sign that she is even willing to go though, considering what has been going on.

Squiggle, tell her you will get back to her. In the meantime, get an appointment with Steve Harley for yourself and let him guide you through this.


This means nothing. Contact is contact.

There will be no "progress" in your marriage while she is in contact with a relationship that directly undermines that. It's like expecting to be healthy while kissing contagously sick people...

I agree that there will be no progress in the M until NC is achieved, but if MC helps achieve NC, then we could go from there and only then could we start working on the M.

Am I being to naive here? Do you think MC could really achieve NC?

Squiggle

Squig - this is a tough call, but hopefully what I'm about to say will make sense.

I think you should agree to go to counseling with her, fully knowing that it may be a waste of time and money and completely ineffective as long as contact continues. She may simply be going thru the devious motions just to say she tried - like my WS did - or maybe she's sincere. You won't know until you try. The huge downside of NOT giving MC a try is that she could just as deviously claim she wanted to try and YOU didn't. You inherit the "blame." And you'll never know if she was being sincere or not.

Sound advice to have a one-on-one with SH first.

WAT

Nope - unless it's with Steve or Jennifer

If anyone could do it, it would be Steve Harley. But there is no guarantee. Even so, she has said she doesn't want to go to MC now, hasn't she?

[quote

If anyone could do it, it would be Steve Harley. But there is no guarantee. Even so, she has said she doesn't want to go to MC now, hasn't she? [/quote]

No, she actually is the one saying she does want to go to MC now. But only if I won't make demands on her to stop talking to OM -- she says she will do that of her own free will once we are making progress in MC. I'm just not sure if I should compromise on this.

Squiggle

The decision to go or not is yours but ask yourself how genuine are her intentions for going to MC if her heart and mind are not going to be into saving/rebuilding the marriage to begin with? Furthermore, if you do decide to go to MC [while she is still in contact with OM] and nothing good comes of it, how motivated will YOU be to go back to MC the next time she expresses a desire for it? Don't kid yourself, false recoveries can kill any love and desire the BS might have for the WS and the marriage. The wrong choice on your part may end up doing more harm than good for your marriage.

TMCM

Squiggle, please stop overanalyzing every little thing and just take some action. Just call up Harley and get your appointment. Let him guide you through this. Tell your W you will get back to her later.

Squiggs,
If you would just give yourself a little space, you could step back and answer this question on your own. Look at this logically.

Fact: MCing is intended to be a forum where honest interaction, focused on solving problems between two partners in a marriage takes place. The goal is to achieve a state where that marriage not only survives but eventually flourishes. For this to work, both parties have to have the same goals or at least have a reasonable facsimile there of. What are your goals? What are your WW’s goals? Given the variance between the two, why would you expect to help?

Fact: You’ve already told your WW that for MCing to happen, as a minimal prerequisite, she must first be in a state of NC with the OM. Backing off this position now sends what kind of message to your WW you do you think? Remember Squiggs, its what we do that counts and has meaning. Not what we say.

Fact: Your WW will lie about anything and everything, surprise surprise! And I’m not saying she’s an evil person…but as of this minute, she’s a cheater and lying is what cheaters do. So why go down this frustrating path to no where? Your WW is at this pointing time and addict and an addict can’t be helped until they decide that help is what they want and need.

Fact: Because MCs presupposes that some level of commitment to the marriage must first exists between the two active participants, most MCs and SH in particular (I know this for a fact) will not work with a WS until the affair has ended. Now does SH make exceptions? I would guess so but that doesn’t change the basic premise on which MCing is offered. How do you council a cheater about making their marriage better while they are still in the active process of destroying it?

Sorry Squiggs. Now is the time to stand firm, not to equivocate and compromise on your basic principals. You are not in an irretrievable situation. Your WW just needs to feel more discomfort with who she is and what she’s doing. Don’t rush the process. You have to be patient and consistent and show your WW who you are in the process. Telling her anything don’t cut it. Only showing her will make a difference right now. You don’t have to divorce her…just do a good plan B…and I mean a good one!

Coach

AAARRGGG...long post....lost in cyberspace.

As a FWS, believe me that she not sincere about MC. She is doing this in response to exposure. To pacify you...to pacify her parents. To say that she really "tried to make it work." To walk around the world saying "we went to MC but just couldn't fix our problems."

She's trying to earn her way out. She may even have the belief that this will help convince YOU that you need to get divorced and make that whole process easier.

She has not ended the affair. She's just pushed it further underground. Her effort will never be genuine while she is still having an affair.

Do not enable her by going to MC so that she can tell everyone how hard she tried to save the marriage.

Right now -- get to Steve or Jennifer. Bring her in when the time is right. Steve was able to reach me (WS) in a very non-threatening way. I felt like he really understood me -- really he was gathering all the information my BS really needed to have.

In the meantime, you have 3 months until your planned move. Put together a very short and perfect Plan A. Continue exposing. Start organizing and preparing for Plan B. It is the MOST POWERFUL part of the MB plans. Look forward to it! Its going to work as long as you follow it and stop wandering off into your own impulsive ideas like filing for divorce. 3 months -- then you do what you need to. OK?

You're getting a lot of good advice here Squiggs. I wanted to add that I did go to MC before NC was established and it helped establish NC. She didn't respect things I told her because she felt I was too emotional about it. Coming from somebody else helped.

Squig - you're seeing some diverging views. Good arguments on both sides of the coin. This should motivate you to get individual guidance from Steve.

WAT

Thanks, everyone, for the replies so far. I'll be struggling with this question the whole weekend.

WAT - You're right. Very divergent views here, at least confirming that I'm not entirely crazy debating in my head over this. One minute I can convince myself to D and refuse MC without NC. The next minute I'm ready to compromise on NC. It's very confusing and frustrating.

I have an appointment with Steve booked. It's too bad he doesn't do counseling on weekends.

Squiggle

Sure started a debate on this one! I'm glad you have that appt booked. SH should be able to advise you well on how appropriate MC is at this point. I sent you my email like you asked. Hope I can be of assistance!

Take care!

Just a quick update...

Discovered that my WW spent the night at OM's apartment Friday. I got majorly angry, drove to his apartment in the middle of the night, and left a note on her car, telling her yet again she is lying to me about breaking things off with him.

After she found the note in the morning, she came by my house to try to explain how she "wasn't lying at all," but I wouldn't even let her get a word in. I layed into her, yelled at her, telling her all the things I've been feeling and that she had become a lying, cheating, selfish woman who has to live with herself knowing who she has become. She was visibly very upset and crying over the things I said to her. I told her to get out of the house, but she wouldn't, so I left. She eventually went back to her apartment, and left behind a letter.

In her letter, her justification was that she had told me she "was prepared to break up with him" if we go into MC, but since I was still thinking about it, she wouldn't officially break it off until MC began (although she still refuses to stop talking to him "as friends"). Now I know that she told me she had "already" broken up with him, so WTF? More lies and half truths.

My sister made this even worse this time (WW and sister used to be decently close), b/c I told her about it and she left WW a mean message on her cell phone (WW didn't previously know that I had told my sister what was going on).

Now, WW is back to being angry at me and not wanting to talk. I have no idea how I keep cycling back to the same situations over and over.

Squiggle

I am so sorry, Squiggle. I think you did a good thing in leaving her the note and confronting her about her lies, but I am very concerned about the lovebusters. [and I am sure you are too] I do think your sister probably did help things, though. It is good for your W to see how her adultery effects others.

I suspect that your W will calm down and talk to you again. She is only angry because you forced her to look in the mirror and she didn't like what she saw.


FOGHORN nonsense as I am sure you know. She is using MC as an excuse to continue seeing the OM, as in: perhaps MC can make me not want to see OM against my will.

And when that doesn't happen, she can blame the failure on MC and claim that she tried. This is why I think MC is a waste of time with her. Even so, if anyone can get through to her, SH might be able to draw her in. But rest assured, her intention was to use MC to rationalize her behavior, rather than seriously work on her marriage. If she were serious about working on your marriage, she would end the affair.

Squiggle, I don't think you caused as much damage as you fear, so don't be so hard on yourself. Just hang tight and try to be calm until your appointment with SH.

ML - Yeah, I know that I lovebusted big-time yesterday. But all of that built up anger boiled over, and the feelings just started coming out. Luckily, I did leave the house, keeping my verbal attack to only 5 minutes or so. I can't say that I didn't mean a lot of what I said, but I should not have called her some of the things I did, and I should have been more calm and collected.

I actually just had a 90 minute calm, meaningful R conversation with WW tonight at her apartment. I did 90% of the talking, but I guess that still qualifies as a conversation :-)

Anyway, she was VERY upset about my sister's message and doesn't know if she can face my family now if we ever do reconcile. And she kept trying to say we need a D, but kept blaming it on outside events (my family will hold this against her, the pressure of our move, etc.). I calmly told her that if she can look me in the eyes and say that she honestly wanted a D, and if it was because SHE wanted it based on "me and her" -- not because of my sister or mother or OM or any other outside things -- then I would support her decision.

She couldn't do it. I could see it in her eyes and her expression that she knows we have a chance. She didn't say the words, but I know it was there. It may be that she had a moment of clarity -- a small break in the fog -- but it was there.

So now for the good and bad news. The good news is that she told me she didn't really want to talk to OM if we go to MC -- she was more angry with me for making it a demand, and it makes her want to do the opposite. I'm not sure if I believe it, but I do know that she doesn't take well to demands, no matter how reasonable, so I'm sure there is at least some truth to it. Another thing -- now that she made that claim, she may actually follow through with NC if MC ever happens. It would prove herself "right."

So the bad news -- she says she wants "a couple of days" to "think", as she wants to make sure that yesterday's events didn't change her mind regarding MC.

So....back in limbo for a couple days. But it was nice to have a calm, thoughtful R conversation with her. She did seem receptive to my thoughts and feelings -- and neither of us yelled at each other (progress). There were more than a few glimmers of hope in her eyes.

Heading to bed now. Another eventful day in the soap opera of my life.

Squiggle

Don't sweat telling her sister. This was just more necessary exposure on your part. Of course she doesn't like it.

I am still of the view that you should agree to MC even with out NC established. Not perfect, but I believe more good can come than harm. But since you made an appointment with Steve, hold off for his advice.


So, stop making demands. This is no such thing as a "reasonable" demand in a marriage.

Very likely that OM is nothing more than the drug of choice. It's not abput him. He's just the "any port in a storm." Think of him this way and stop providing reasons for her to run for a fix.

WAT