I'm going 2 start this thread off with some lyrics 2 a really beautiful song by Peter Murphy that I downloaded yes2rday. It's a very catchy 2ne and beat. Check it out:

"I'll Fall With Your Knife" - Peter Murphy

"To the crowd
To the world
You were so dry
And with a token bird I made
Sent it to fly
Right to your side
With a broken wing you sail
Oh like winter in July
A barren river wide
I'll pray for the flood
To wash on you
It's here, I'll be with you

Well if the birds
Can reach the sky
To this land
I'll be with you
Till the sun bursts from your side
With my hands
I reach to you
When you think your chance is passing by
When you blow your moon away
I'll bleed like the reed
Fall with your knife
It's here I'll be with you

To the crowd
To the world
You were so dry
And with a token bird I made
Sent it to fly
Right to your side
With a broken wing you sail
Oh like winter in July
A barren river wide
I'll pray for the flood
To wash on you
It's here, I'll stay with you
It's here, I'll be with you
I'll fall..."

-ol' 2long

I've edited it a bit for you:

2 the crowd
2 the world
U were so dry
And with a 2ken bird I made
Sent it 2 fly
Right 2 your side
With a broken wing U sail
O like winter in July
A barren river wide
I'll pray 4 the flood
2 wash on U
It's here, I'll be with U

And so forth...

Dobie

2Long:

What's going on with you, Wizard?

I've never been too good with poetry.

I don't like the title of that song.

My W got back from her conference late last night. 2morrow, she's going on that field trip again that she saw RM on last year - only they're not going 2 where he is this time.

Before she left for the conference last week, I mulled over whether 2 ask her 2 not have contact with RM if he's there. I thought long and hard about it for about a month. In the end, I didn't mention my concerns. Primarily because I wasn't very concerned at all. It wasn't really CA, either. I'm just at the point where I don't want 2 let my life revolve around whether they're in contact or not, or whether she resents me for being hobbled or not...

But this morning, we talked a little about her trip. She talked about the friend who drove back with her being married more for financial convenience than anything else. She talked about another friend who got DV'd a 2ple years ago (I hadn't realized that, but I don't know here all that well), like she's "free" or something.

I told her I missed her while she was gone, and pulled her close and hugged her. I said that I wish that I was capable of making her happy, but have realized that we need 2 be able 2 find happiness for ourselves. She agreed, in a pessimistic tone (which isn't how *I* meant my remark). She didn't say she missed me, but she has been cordial. She did say though, that "I'm just numb. I guess I'm just still so mad." Meaning at me for "ruining" her friendship or her chance 2 work in the area that RM works in. But that's my assumption. I can ask her, but I'm not really worried about it anymore. I'm ready 2 allow her 2 seek whatever means she feels she needs 2 find her version of happiness. Really.

This was the first R talk we've had since February. It's been 39 months since d-day, and she's still mad at me. I had 2 leave for work after that and pick up our tax forms on the way, but I have 2 tell you: I thought about asking her for a DV when we talk again. And I don't feel sad about that. I felt an intense wave of relief come over me while I was driving in. I quit. This M, the one I've been living for at least the past 15 years, and maybe more like the last 20, just isn't something worth hanging on2. She won't go 2 her IC. She won't go 2 MC with me. She doesn't even want 2 know if I'm spending money on coaching - it's an "insult" 2 her. And so, why bother? 2 much of coaching for M building is guesswork when I'm doing it alone. And I'm doing it entirely on my own, such that I'm doing it.

Life will be complicated for some time yet. We've still got this house 2 finish. But I believe I can do my part, however long it takes. Maybe I'll stay in it, maybe she will. Our kids are still there (my D and her new H live in our guest house while he gets his citizenship, and my son 2rns 18 2morrow). And it is LA, after all - if you've had a house for more than a few years around here, and sell it, you'll pretty much be stuck with a crackerbox unless you leave SoCal.

I hereby let go, though.

-2long

Were you sincere about this?

Why are you saying that you want to divorce her?

2long, its time for her to sh*t or get off the pot. She's been horrible and uncontrite all the time I've read your posts.

All blessings, whether you want them or not mate.

{{{{2l}}}}

Hi 2Long,

It's been a long while since I've posted to you, but I've followed your story as much as I could.

If this is your reason for seeking a divorce, it concerns me:
"I'm ready 2 allow her 2 seek whatever means she feels she needs 2 find her version of happiness. Really."

If/when your wife needs a divorce to find her version of happiness, then she will seek a divorce. Is it fair to either of you to make that decision for her?

If/when YOU need a divorce, you will know. You will KNOW.

Until then, let yourself adjust to the new changes in your life and what that means to you. Your little girl just got married--that's a big one. Also, your little guy is reaching adulthood--another big one. Good changes require adjustment too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Take care 2Long

Mimi:

My W is a pessimistic fatalist. I made that up, but it's the best term I can think of 2 describe her outlook on life.

It's EXTREMELY depressing, and you know? The day is so beautiful and the sky is so blue 2day, that it doesn't make sense dwelling on the made-up negativity all the time.

I'm not perfect, but frankly I'm a pretty nice guy. I've been very patient and loving. Everything is met with a cold-shoulder response. If I bring up DV, it will be as an offer 2 end HER misery. No, I don't really want a DV, but I am pretty tired of feeling blamed for everything that's wrong. I know I'm not.

-ol' 2long

L'vin' Bdies:

"If this is your reason for seeking a divorce, it concerns me:
"I'm ready 2 allow her 2 seek whatever means she feels she needs 2 find her version of happiness. Really.""

It is my reason. I've tried everything else I can think of. For a long time, even, I thought that our poor communication was primarily because of MY conflict avoiding. But it's not. For more than a year now, I've not gotten a response 2 direct 2uestions. Nothing. She hasn't said ILY 2 me since before our "almost NC agreement" in December 2003. I said it 2 her for a while after that, but gave up when it was met with ...poker face or a look of disdain. I DO want her 2 be happy. Nothing I've done has helped that much, or maybe she won't let it (or I'm a screwup, I don't know). She's never had 2 face the consequences of helping RM break up his family. I've probably protected her 2 much. Only she wouldn't view that as protection.


"If/when your wife needs a divorce to find her version of happiness, then she will seek a divorce. Is it fair to either of you to make that decision for her?"

Perhaps not. I can ask her if that's what she wants. If I do nothing, nothing will happen. Nothing will improve. Nothing will get worse. Yes, it's true that I'm not in any danger, but should I live like this for the rest of my life? What if my W's "decision" is 2 remain on the fence and find clever ways 2 do what she wants in secret anyway?

"If/when YOU need a divorce, you will know. You will KNOW."

I'm feeling like that's not far away.

"Until then, let yourself adjust to the new changes in your life and what that means to you. Your little girl just got married--that's a big one. Also, your little guy is reaching adulthood--another big one. Good changes require adjustment too"

Yep. I can do that.

-ol' 2long

2,

Maybe I reading too much into it, but when you post about your own relationship, the words seem a little hollow. I don't mean insincere or shallow....just that there is not as much "2long" behind them. I read them in a monotonic voice with little emotion a la Ben Stein.

Are you spinning your wheels or have you just stopped?

Maybe I'm off on all of this. Who knows?

Just my $.02

Doug

Well I didn't really like those lyrics or the title as mimi said. But I did just download it, cuz I am a music FREAK and I couldn't resist.

mimi it sounds much better than it reads. It really is a cool song, very relaxing.

No comments about the recent realizations in your marriage 2long. I know we all get to a point in our life where we must make a decision to fly or to stay and die a slow death. I am glad you are choosing to live. I will be somewhat sad that the legacy does not seem to be what I know you had planned on.

A different legacy perhaps?

I loved my parents enough to want them to divorce when I felt my dad's alcoholism and my mother's gambling addiction were feeding off of each other. They were not able to separate they could not, and they died within months of each other. Both very broken shadows of what they once were.

My hope for you at this stage is that you have raised your children in such a way that they love you and your wife in the way I loved my parents, wanting only their happiness and wholeness in the end. Even if that meant they would part.


Edited to add that being the hopeless optimist and romantic I am with a huge love of the sactity of marriage, I will hope for a miracle in that your wife wakes up before it is too late, as Bob almost so elegantly put it.

d_rose:

Problem is that I'm torn between saying much personal stuff, out of respect for my W and our "privacy" and giving enough information 2 get some real help.

Maybe I'm accomplishing neither with this, though.

I feel pretty out of gas, though, much of the time.

-ol' 2long

Still willing to rebuild the marriage but feeling out of gas = refuel and carry on

Out of gas due to Apathy = a different path altogether

Do you know which one it is now?

2long, I don't know what to say. How many times have you felt like throwing in the towel? How is this one different?

Three years is a long time to deal with a cold, surly, semi-WW. I've felt that since knowing you. Maybe you've done all you could. Only you can say.

Have you told her, all at once, no-holds-barred, what it would take from her for this to be a M that was working for you?

GC

[color:"purple"] Hm...

Certainly, I'm willing 2 rebuild. Hope the either/or choice can be that simple.

I do feel pretty apathetic at times, 2. And when she's gone, much of the time (though not all of it), I feel relieved, at ease.

gc:

I guess the difference this time is that I'm holding on less tightly 2 that towel. I'm sure I can do more, and maybe I will. All of my efforts go unrewarded, tough. Few go unpunished. Or so it seems.

I'm glad you asked me that last 2uestion, because my response will sound like a DJ (heck, it is): If I even asked her that 2uestion, she'd laugh at me. I believe she's "2 mad" or resents our M 2 much 2 even answer that 2uestion without an angry outburst.

...sounds like as good a reason 2 ask as any! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long [/color]

weaver:

I read that song as a lot like I feel now. Like I'm reaching out 2 my W, who's life has been so clouded for so long by cynicism (like every silver-lined cloud is still a cloud), and I'm getting a little sliced and diced in the process. I'm willing 2 self sacrifice 2 help her out 2 a point that's probably pretty far beyond what most would conceive of (Heck, I've known her for 31 years this month), if only she'll accept the help and not view it as condescending.

Don't know if that's what Murphy meant by those lyrics or not (I don't do well with poetry interpretation), but that's what I see.

-ol' 2long

I'm guessing that you're in the Refuel and Carry On category. When you're out of gas or close to it, OF COURSE it's a relief when she's gone because--you're low on gas! Plus, you said yourself that CERTAINLY you'd want to rebuild. You made it easy to pick a guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

So, refueling.....

Refuel with what? I think probably something different than you've refueled with before because the old fuel didn't get you to the rebuilding stage.

I'm thinking that there was too much "protection" in the fuel you've been using. The 2nd paragraph of your 4:02pm post is what makes me think this--protection from either of you having to deal with certain current realities.

What if you started saying ILY again (if you have something left in the ol' Love Bank)? Do you still need to protect her from having to respond (or react)? Do you still need to protect yourself from her reaction?

Is there anything else you can think of that you can use for a test case of lowering the amount of "protection" to see if it makes a good difference?

I'm readin along..........

But I am still thinking what to say.

2long my friend, I have no idea what will come of this, but you will have friends right along.

SS

LB (Couldn't resist!):

Funny you should suggest that. I was just thinking 'bout just telling her ILY 2night - because it's true - and see what she says/does/doesn't say/doesn't do...

Key is not 2 hang my well-being on the response/reaction. Which is why I haven't said it in a long time - I got rebuked the last time. So, I must have been protecting my feelings from getting hurt. Like the remark after our last SF 2.5 months ago, where she said I coerce her in2 it. That hurt, and killed my desire completely.

Maybe I should switch 2 biodiesel?

-ol' 2long

That would be $LB to you mister! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Can't quite remember....wasn't it you who came up with that abbrev in the first place???

Now, go to a mirror and start practicing your "casual" ILY until you're satisfied with it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .