If I even asked her that 2uestion, she'd laugh at me.

Based on how you describe her, that's about what I expected you to say.

If she laughs at you or has some other dismissive response, you can ask her to cram it and hear you out, can't you?

Why hasn't she sought a divorce, 2long?

GC

OK,
My thinker finally came up with something.
( it may not be any good, but it's something.)

I endorse the ILY for a while. If she gets angry, give her that big (pep suggested) smooch, and say "You are so cute when you're mad." then run.

Stuff to try -

"Are you sick enough of me to file for D yet, Or shall I keep trying to make the marriage work."

"Since Daughter got married, I have been thinking about honeymoons. You want to go on another one?? "

"I keep thinking this marriage could be a lot better - do you think a hair cut would help? " (look in the mirror when you say it, and hold a comb.) Then wink at her.

If she asks "how are you" or "what are you thinking" You can say "I am doing really well, because I am in love with a sexy women named ______________."
I recommennd you use her name, it wouldn't work nearly as well if you used someone elses name. (I typed this with a straight face.)

If she never asks these things, it is a sign. You would know what I mean.

SS

2L,

I suspect that only when you feel you have nothing left to lose (in this case meaning - divorce is looming); only then will you and your wife have any kind of meaningful relationship discussion.

My concern for you waiting until you've reached this point is that after all this time that has gone by you really AREN'T GOING TO CARE ANYMORE.

Is there any chance you can have a meaningful discussion before? Or, do you think she is being her version of "kind", and waiting you out - hoping you'll be the one to file for DV...so she doesn't have to feel guilty for pulling the plug?

SS,

You seriously crack me up!!!!!!!!!!!11

$LB:

"Now, go to a mirror and start practicing your "casual" ILY until you're satisfied with it ."

What if I say: "I'm going 2 say ILY until you're satisfied with it!"

Probably not what you meant, though... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

gc:

"If she laughs at you or has some other dismissive response, you can ask her to cram it and hear you out, can't you?"

I can do that.

"Why hasn't she sought a divorce, 2long?"

Anybody mind if I ask her that? Problem is that I imagine it's because she's trying 2 get back on the fence, and I'm feeding it 2 the termites.

-ol' 2long

"Since Daughter got married, I have been thinking about honeymoons. You want to go on another one?? "

I like this one.

And then I like Gray's suggestion of telling her to cram it and hear you out if she comes back with a huff and the old eye roll thing.

Then you lay it on the line and tell her you are afraid for your marriage because you are beginning to feel indifferent, and does she have any ideas of how or what you could do to make it better.

Like Csue says, it might take getting to this point for you to catapult inertia into ertia (haha, or whatever the scientific words are for ACTION)

SS:

""Are you sick enough of me to file for D yet, Or shall I keep trying to make the marriage work.""

I like that one.

""Since Daughter got married, I have been thinking about honeymoons. You want to go on another one?? ""

I don't like that one much. Weaver suggested I ask 2 go on this field trip, which includes a drive through the place we first held hands 31 years ago... I sorta asked, and she's thinking about not going on that part of the trip (for timing reasons relative to her teaching schedule, plus they'd be buzzing through with a bunch of vans full of s2dents, so they won't likely stop).

""I keep thinking this marriage could be a lot better - do you think a hair cut would help? " (look in the mirror when you say it, and hold a comb.) Then wink at her."

I could threaten 2 shave again. I've done that 2wice since we met. First time, she didn't like it. 2nd time was when I was working in the arctic and shaved on a whim. Unbeknownst 2 me at the time (and for the next 11 years), she had just started an A with RM a few months earlier. She was LIVID. I don't want 2 go there with "hair suggestions" because of that. Good thing is that she likes my beard, which I prefer, 2 (only I don't get 2 let it go like ZZTop, which I think would be fun 2 do, once, and would only take me a year or so).

"If she asks "how are you" or "what are you thinking" You can say "I am doing really well, because I am in love with a sexy women named ______________."
I recommennd you use her name, it wouldn't work nearly as well if you used someone elses name. (I typed this with a straight face.)

If she never asks these things, it is a sign. You would know what I mean."

She never asks these things. Really. And I just realized that when she speaks about her out of state property, she isn't really interested in my input. It's hers. I'm just her slave laborer when I go there, which is why I might not go again.

-ol' 2long

CSue:

"I suspect that only when you feel you have nothing left to lose (in this case meaning - divorce is looming); only then will you and your wife have any kind of meaningful relationship discussion."

I agree. In the past, though, she wouldn't engage if she wasn't comfortable, so no discussion (or end of, if there was one).

-ol' 2long

weaver:

"it might take getting to this point for you to catapult inertia into ertia (haha, or whatever the scientific words are for ACTION)" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Reading about the state of your marriage makes it sound a lot like pre-d-day or during an A WW A behavior.

She doesn't sound like a person who wants to be in your marriage. She still sounds like a person who is selfish and distracted because of an ongoing A even if it may be only in her heart. She sounds like you are forcing her to remain in the marriage against her will. But that doesn't make any sense. She harbors tons of resentment and unforgiveness toward you but she seems to use it to justify her way of thinking as well as her actions.

I feel sad for you.

I tend to agree that it may take the shake up of a looming D to have any hope of her evaluating what she has with you and what she would stand to lose. When you were in your little plan B it got her to come closest to her agreeing to NC.

Isn't real NC a deal breaker for you? But you never have any real proof, do you? Are you allowing her to fence sit? Are you in denial? Can she really enjoy being as miserable as she sounds indefinitely?

I would love for you to have a real restored marriage with some real intimacy. You deserve better. I think. But, I suppose there is something to be said for being long suffering hoping that she wakes up someday.

I believe you still have a basis for a D whenever you are ready.

Holy cow! I had a response that I'm SURE I posted, Trix!

Damn!

Anyway, Yes, NC is a requirement, and I've said so many times. But you're also right, I'll never really have proof, so it's better not 2 expect, just hope.

I don't believe I'm allowing her 2 fence sit, though I do believe she would rather.

I don't believe I'm in denial so much as I'm just about resigned.

Yes, I believe she can "enjoy" being miserable indefinitely. I'm also sure that I can't, which is why I might rather run than stay and try 2 fix. She's been like this as long as I've known her (just got "worse" after the A started). I almost left once when we'd only been M'd about 6 months. But I caved, and she never really learned why I was depressed. My bad. Is that denial?

I still do hope she wakes up, or that we can at least talk about stuff again.

-ol' 2long

2long, the idea is not to keep things like they have been. Shake them up -

Shake her up -

Just don't get motion sickness yourself.

SS

This may be non-MB advice, but here goes. It's not working. I don't think your wife needs you to be nice and patient and loving.

I think what she really needs is for you to stand up to her.

I needed my husband to stand up to me. I knew that I could do what I wanted. I knew I could run all over him. He was a "nice" guy and I did not respect him for it.

I can't do that anymore. And I respect him more because of the changes he has made in standing up to me. Changes we both have made.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I like your advice, Susan.

I like it 2.

If I might ask, what did he stand up 2?

In my case, there are 2 primary things that my W still "does" that really chap my hide:

*secrecy: her definition of privacy is what we all consider secrecy. Every IC and MC we talked 2 has told her that she's got it wrong. She won't budge.

*While she may not be in contact with RM, I believe she cherishes the memories of the times they had 2gether. I need her 2 regret them like I regret not seeing the signs when I might have.

I believe that my W doesn't respect me for not standing up 2 her, though she might not be aware of it as such.

I, on the other hand, need 2 tell her that I have no desire 2 remain married 2 someone who hates being married 2 me.

-ol' 2long

2L,

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here, but....I said -

CSue:

"I suspect that only when you feel you have nothing left to lose (in this case meaning - divorce is looming); only then will you and your wife have any kind of meaningful relationship discussion."

I agree. In the past, though, she wouldn't engage if she wasn't comfortable, so no discussion (or end of, if there was one).

-ol' 2long

So, if you can't ever have a meaningful discussion because she's not confortable, how comfortable will the discussion be where you tell her you're divorcing her? My point is you're going to be having an uncomfortable discussion with her at some point in the future without doubt....how much do you need to feel done with the whole thing before you're willing to have the uncomfortable discussion?

I suspect you really, really need to be done. And there's nothing wrong with that - but I think you would be ahead to make a plan, and a timetable based on all the other non-relationship factors - in doing so I think you'll feel more peace...

Truth is, there is a good chance she won't change.

So, if you tell her this are you prepared to back up your words with action?

Susan

Sorry to just barge in here out of the blue.

I just wanted to let ya know, 2long, that you have earned my respect many times over with your perseverance and your dedication. I have a lot of admiration for you.

That's all. You can all carry on now. Sorry for interupting.

dewt

2long, early on in my saga, when the sparrow stayed here at the house, and saw OM, and got nasty with me when I tried to have a conversation with her, I didn't respond immediately, but a few days later, on the phone, I told her I didn't want her staying here again. After spending several seconds speechless, she tried to save face by saying "Good - I'm not comfortable there."

Laying down that boundary did not change the trajectory of events, but I'm glad I did it. My WW may be gone forever, but I'm confident that she knows I'm not interested in letting anybody step on me, and that's worth something to me.

Does your W think she's above all the self-help mumbo-jumbo? I wonder if she's a little embarrassed by it. All the counseling and talkin', talkin', talkin' makes her have to admit she's just a human being like everybody else, and that having a certain sort of smarts doesn't put her above being dumb enough to screw up her life. I think she's a little proud.

GC