Weaver, the timer is a good thing, I vote with her on it. She needs you, and later, it will come back to you when she is busy, but wants to spend time because you gave it to her NOW.

I think I can see the longing in your voice. I hope you still dream dreams, and believe.

I laughed when I read about your daughter and the timer - but she was out riding her bike.

I have twin daughters 11 years old - I KNOW.

SS

Yeah, okay.

I do intend 2 ask her, "Hey, just what the hell are you mad about anyway?"

likely followed by "THAT was LAST YEAR, and remember what YOU said[did] that triggered it??"

I intend 2 enjoy my evening alone. I won't call her, but I'll talk 2 her if she calls me.

I "tried" 2 say ILY last night. Even though we were having a generally upbeat evening, I couldn't. Didn't feel like it.

-ol' 2long

followed by:

"Your persistent misery has nothing 2 do with me and everything 2 do with the thoughtless, selfish, s2pid, 'private' choices you've made for the past 14 years."

THAT would be my "ballistic."

-ol' 2long

Just out of curiosity: Does the MB concept of "Radical Honesty" have any place in your relationship?

I have always gotten the impression from your posts that you want your wife to forget her OM and fall madly in love with you *all on her own.* You don't want to have to say or do anything in particular to make this happen. If it doesn't happen on its own, it's like it's not worth anything to you.

So, you hang back and wait, and complain mightily about her *here* and contemplate divorcing her *here* -- yet you say little or nothing to your wife about these things.

Does she know how often you think of divorcing her? Or is that to be the ultimate surprise punishment for her for not providing you with the ideal relationship all on her own?

IMHO, she is living a lie and so are you. It is massively unfair to her to hide how unhappy you really are with her and let her go on thinking that everything is really pretty OK and stable, and that Rat Meat annoys you but doesn't really make that much difference to you.

Patience is one thing. Passive-aggressive is another. I think you are confusing the two.

She will not take any responsibility for your marriage until you do. And as long as you hide your true feelings from her, you are *not* taking responsibility for the state of your marriage.

JMHO
Mulan

I "tried" 2 say ILY last night. Even though we were having a generally upbeat evening, I couldn't. Didn't feel like it.

I think this is what we all worry about.

More and more you don't feel like it?
One time thing?


I tend not to go ballistic these days, even when I can't get HER attention. I tend to think more on it, and try to find a way to explain it so she "gets it." sometimes it doesn't work, so I use example.

You have already done that for a 2ple of years.

If you do use words similar to your above example, I believe you also need to tell her what YOU are going to do about it. If you won't change anything, why should she?

If you aren't going to change anything, she can just say "so what."

Now, I try to always use respect when I talk, even if I am angry, upset, or in a bad mood. It's just me. You probably know why I say that.

SS

Mulan:

My W doesn't believe in RH. She seemed 2 agree with the general concept of POJA early on, but soon as she realized she wasn't POJAing contact with RM, she jettisoned that, 2.

"I have always gotten the impression from your posts that you want your wife to forget her OM and fall madly in love with you *all on her own.*"

Don't know when or how I gave you that impression. Love is a choice. If she "falls", it's romantic, chemical, infa2ation love. Great stuff, if REAL love (the chosen kind) precedes it. Temporary if not.

"You don't want to have to say or do anything in particular to make this happen. If it doesn't happen on its own, it's like it's not worth anything to you."

I don't want 2 have 2 do squat. ...not really true. I don't expect things 2 happen on their own, though. You missed that one.

"So, you hang back and wait, and complain mightily about her *here* and contemplate divorcing her *here* -- yet you say little or nothing to your wife about these things."

Indeed, though I sure did 2 years ago.

"Does she know how often you think of divorcing her?"

No.

"Or is that to be the ultimate surprise punishment for her for not providing you with the ideal relationship all on her own?"

No.

"IMHO, she is living a lie and so are you. It is massively unfair to her to hide how unhappy you really are with her and let her go on thinking that everything is really pretty OK and stable, and that Rat Meat annoys you but doesn't really make that much difference to you."

Again, don't know where you got that impression... unless this is a ploy 2 get me 2 do something radical that I might, seemingly, not otherwise do. She knows I'm not happy, but I'm not unhappy with HER (that sounds like I hold her responsible for my happiness, which I recognize is the Harley way, but it's never been my way). I'm unhappy with my stuckedness. I OWN my problems, considerable though they may be. She may think I think things are stable and huny dorey, but I sure don't. Rat Meat more than annoys me. I wish he were dead.

"Patience is one thing. Passive-aggressive is another. I think you are confusing the two."

No, being stuck doesn't mean I'm confused, though it does indicate that I'm frustrated. Again, I take responsibility for ALL my feelings.

"She will not take any responsibility for your marriage until you do. And as long as you hide your true feelings from her, you are *not* taking responsibility for the state of your marriage."

Well.

-ol' 2long

SS:

"More and more you don't feel like it?
One time thing?"

No. More and more I don't feel like it.

"I tend not to go ballistic these days, even when I can't get HER attention. I tend to think more on it, and try to find a way to explain it so she "gets it." sometimes it doesn't work, so I use example."

I try this 2. Isn't working. How do you get your point across when you get no response. Not even an indication that you were heard???????

"You have already done that for a 2ple of years."

Yep. Better lately than early.

"If you do use words similar to your above example, I believe you also need to tell her what YOU are going to do about it. If you won't change anything, why should she?"

No reason. I don't expect, I just hope.

"If you aren't going to change anything, she can just say "so what.""

She may act this out, but she won't say it.

"Now, I try to always use respect when I talk, even if I am angry, upset, or in a bad mood. It's just me. You probably know why I say that."

Yes, and I appreciate it. I believe I try 2 do that with my W, and so far it hasn't earned me squat (but that's an expectation). If I were perfect, I could "deal" with whatever she dishes out and just keep on keeping on, being ME as best I know how.

Going 2 take a break. Drink some.

-2long

Hi 2long,

We should go out for a beer sometime... you're getting MB-nailed today!

First time I've posted to you, and I'll skip the part where I should be saying how I really appreciate your sense of humor, combined with all sorts of other STUFF that makes reading what you say... compelling, interesting, insightful... even sometimes (what?!?!) FUN... in the midst of all the rotten stuff that brings (and keeps) a lot of us here.

My sincere "thanks" for all of that.

BUT! What's been bugging me about your W... I HAVE to ask...

If she's so miserable... why does she stay? Why is she there? Has she told you why she's still there?

2Long...

I think that the point that I am trying to make is this...

If both of you are not already in withdrawal, you are definitely teetering on the edge of it. Don't you have to revisit "conflict" to get to the intimacy that you want?

I know and understand that you want to see what SHE wants, and what HER decision is. I respect that. But...

She is not gonna make one in my opinion. I think that she has become very comfortable in withdrawal. Not wanting to insult or offend you, but I think you may be close as well. However, there is still the part of you that wants the intimacy back. It may not be the "right" thing in your mind to force her to make a move, but...

Do you want to be right, or to be married?

Without getting long winded, I am simply trying to say that SOMEONE needs to take the first step into conflict. I am beginning to wonder if she really cares to "engage" you in that manner. So...guess who that leaves to engage?

Even so...I don't think that you will be "forcing" her to do anything. But, I truly believe that if you create enough conflict, that with 20+ years of marriage behind you, it will be "natural" for her to follow you into it. Once you get her there, then...and only then...will you see where and what her TRUE choice is. She isn't doing any work, 2Long. Hell...she doesn't have to.

If she is the strong and intelligent woman that you say she is, she will willingly follow you into conflict, I truly believe.

You may not be responsible for her happiness, and neither she be responsible for yours, but...She may have a "need" for you to take the lead in this situation. You are gonna have to "lead" her into the conflict state, methinks. Sometimes I think that she is NOT comfortable where she is, deep down, and wants change just as bad as you.

See...my XW was at a state where she wanted change. Her move was to file a petition of dissolution. I had no choice but to respond. I didn't want that avenue, but she "led" me into that arena. I HAD to enter into that with her. Sure...she could have been content to withdraw (both of us), and where would we be now? Living separate lives bit still married and still withdrawn. Could've worked...Would've worked. For all practical purposes we could have lived that way the rest of our lives, as I am sure that there are countless couples that do. What kind of life would THAT have been?

You have 3 choices, 2Long....

1. Be content with the way things are,
2. DV and move on, or
3. Create conflict, in the hopes of restoring your M.

What do you want to do?


HCII

2L,

Old friend I generally stay out of this but it occurs to me that you have been asking your W questions and not getting answers. Fair enough she doesn't have to answer and you don't have to act on her lack of answer.

But, 2L have you TOLD her what YOU want in a marriage? Have you explained to her how YOU feel about things? Does she know that you are on the edge of a ZERO care factor?

2L, she may not believe in RH, but I think you might want to consider it for yourself. I'm thinking you have a few things you need to express to her. This not about her as you say, it is about you, but it is the part of you that affects her. Makes sense to me for her to know what is going to happen to her marriage.

When really faced with the FACTS that you have within you, she may bolt, she may stay, or she may decide to talk. Who knows? But, my guess YOU will have a better perspective on your marriage IF you will explain to her what your expectations of a marriage really are and where it is currently falling short.

Just some more thoughts for you to consider.

JL

By the way...You said:

"She may think I think things are stable and huny dorey, but I sure don't."

Time for you to KNOW, that she KNOWS what and how you feel.

You are a scientist, 2Long. Do you really expect it to be fixed properly, when you are not sure that she has the FACTS?

OK....I have 2x4'ed you enough. Gawd....I want this to work out for you...I really do.....


HCII

Well hello there 'ol 2long! Long time no talk! I just popped into MB the other day on a whim while bored, and noticed this thread. Tonight finally I managed to log in properly (thanks to reading lemonman's thread and the technical notes at the top of the screen).

It doesn't sound like things have changed much since we last conversed though.....

It would appear that you're getting lots of input here. My gut tells me a few things upon reading the rest of the posts on this thread:

1. I sure couldn't go as long as you have without hearing ILY.
2. I agree with the folks who say that if you are as unhappy as you are, you need to make it boldly clear to your W that you are this unhappy, and precisely why you are unhappy (what is missing).
3. I think a whole lot of honesty here can only be a good thing. It's the foundation of a good relationship (hence the whole RH Harley thing). I've finally gotten bits and pieces of real, total honesty from my exH in the past few months actually. It's helping me to forgive him finally. No we're not back in a relationship, but it's really helping me to process things better. I am actually sad that he didn't get to the point where he knew how to be and needed to be this honest with me BEFORE we divorced (and before I demonized him to everyone I know), but c'est la vie. What's over is over. I could write a whole thread about this though, so I'll stop here.

Here's something to ponder...would you rather:
a) go on like this with your W for the rest of your days on this earth,
b) divorce her and leave her behind, move away, live a separate life on your own, or
c) be blunt about why you're unhappy, and demand a response from her (create some conflict as hcii says), shake things up a bit, and see if she cares enough to make changes.

I am really curious why she hasn't divorced you if she can't be bothered to treat you better.

Heck, I am nearly as confused as you about what you should do.....I hope my ramblings if nothing else convey my concern for you 2long!

Take care,

Jen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Jen, how in the world are YOU?

You better give a report.

2long, You should have come by for dinner, I hope you didn't have hot dogs tonight.

Get some sleep, see you tomorrow.

Hey Jen, come on, fess up, and tell us what's happenin.

SS

2long, I'm feeling very intuitive tonight. And now that I've seen the photos of your family, I can connect faces to my impressions. It's remarkable the difference that can make, and I'm not talking about judging people from how they look or what you think you see in their eyes or any of that bunk. Your eyes help you see people as individuals, rather than generic "WS" or "BS" or "DD" or whatever, is all.

So my point is, I'm guessing that if you were to make a sudden change that produced drama, something like voicing your frustration or your growing apathy, it would be awkward. It would feel unnatural for you, and it would seem contrived and unconvincing to your W.

So how to do it?

By acting, I guess. For most of us, there are certain postures and attitudes that we don't wear very well. I'm guessing (and stop me if I have this all wrong) that the role of the indignant and angry man doesn't suit you all that well.

That's why putting on a suit and playing a part might not cut it. Instead, maybe you need to figure out a clear and decisive action and take it. Then, rather than assuming a role that doesn't fit, you're doing something unmistakable.

I hope something in all this I've written makes sense. I wonder if my sleepiness is getting the better of me.

GC

***But, 2L have you TOLD her what YOU want in a marriage? Have you explained to her how YOU feel about things? Does she know that you are on the edge of a ZERO care factor?***

Exactly.

IMO, you are being massively unfair to your wife by allowing her to walk around thinking things are one way when in fact they are very different.

Most of us call that "lying." At the very least, it is a Lie of Omission.

Maybe this is just your way of keeping control of the situation. As long as YOU know how it really is but SHE doesn't, YOU are the one in control.

Sort of like with her affair, where SHE knows what happens but YOU don't.

Revenge?

Control?

Fear?

Whatever it is, it ain't gonna work. You cannot hope to have a solid and intimate relationship with someone while you keep them in the dark about how you really feel.

2long, reading your posts is often like Chinese water torture. Drip, drip, drip, and nothing happens.

I will say very bluntly that you are being most cruel and unfair to your wife. No matter what she may have done to you through her affair, 2wrongs don't make a right. She lied to you but you are also lying to her.

I still think you are doing this so that one day you can get the ultimate revenge by coldly turning your back and dropping the D-bomb on her when she doesn't know it's coming - and then staying out of reach while she struggles to cope so you don't have to deal with THAT, either.

Okay, I'll stay out of your thread now.
Mulan

Mulan:

Why stay out? You can have the damned thread! I need 2 stay off my addiction here better than I am lately, anyway.

Look, everybody. I know the wisdom of the good advice I'm getting. I'm sure some of you have been "here" before - where you end up so mad about being stuck and know how 2 get unstuck but can't seem 2 break the ice.

Attribute it 2 malice, lying by omission, whatever.

The good news is that I'm listening, and thinking.

The bad news is that I'm pissed off and can't get any work done.

-ol' 2long

Reading all the treads again, after you said you were going to go drink I realized that some of us, me included may have over stepped some boundaries.

Everyone just likes you so much that we like talking to you I think, and we all want to help. But maybe sometimes too much help all at once is a little much.

I am sorry 2long.

2L,

As you know I walk 3 miles daily...what happens during my walks is "free-thinking". I've tried to direct my free thinking, but have found it wiser to just go with what consumes me at the moment...sometime nothing!

Today, it's your situation - so I've newly returned from walking and have so much to say that i hope I have a chance to spit it all out!

1st of all - those who have followed 2long's situation for any length of time know a little about his wife. Since 2L and I joined MB at about the same time, his situation has long served as a place I could go when I needed a break from myself.

I have tremendous empathy for her and don't feel that it serves 2long's best interest for him to conjure up anger and "shock" her with it.

Can 2long force her to deal with her issues? No, however he can focus his energies on him - with the help of an IC, he can learn what his boundaries are, his timetable, and he can communicate these to her with peace and love.

His focus needs to be on him, not his marriage - at least for the time being. He needs someone like counselor1 to help him.


There's more - I'll be back

That's a good point weaver!

2Long, it seems that everyone wants for you what you want for yourself--the kind of marriage that happens when both spouses are on board with MB principles. The hard truth is that it isn't gonna happen that way for all of us, no matter how long we try or how much effort we put into learning how to apply these MB principles ourselves.

Your house renovations puts another ? in the equation. Are either, neither, or both of you just waiting for the renovations to be completed before divorcing or before shaking things up to work out the marriage issues?

If both of you are just waiting until divorce can be filed, then I would suggest doing what you've both been doing because it doesn't seem totally miserable or chaotic in your daily lives.

But, if either of you wants to be in a marriage after the renovations are completed, then I would suggest that you use this time wisely--because you might not have time or opportunity after the renovations are done.

I'm not sure what the status of the house renovations is now 2Long, but if you're pretty confident that your wife wouldn't file until they're done then I would say stop tippy-toeing around and start a couple small tremors (not a volcanic eruption LOL).

Of course, there's still the possibility that neither of you would file for divorce and continue as you have been. Then it's a matter of figuring out if the marriage is good enough for you to be content with even if it's not everything you want it to be.

Take care

hugs (((((((Uncle 2long))))))))))

hehe. Don't know where that came from! Just sounded appropriate for the moment! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Everyone must take their own journey.

we are all here to help along the way. You know all this.

You also know... these people (we) love u. Many of us are also "fixers", and we apologize if we are trying to push you in a direction that you are not ready to go. And sometimes we are just pushing you to think so much your brain explodes. :eek:

You know also... sometimes we see someone else's sitch, and we feel like the solution is so simple. I think back to many times I've seen you post to dear lucidity. Sometimes we want to reach through our monitors and hug the other person, and just bring them down the road we KNOW... or THINK... would bring them to safety... or sanity.

You have to do what's right for you. Somewhere in your heart... and in these pages of wisdom... if you'll be honest with yourself... and if you have courage... you'll decide. If you want to continue on where you are, we will continue to walk with you on your journey, even though we don't like to see you suffer. But we ARE here. And we are here if have the courage to leap. We will leap with you. And we will catch you if you fall.

hugs,
Faith1