Hi Nikko!

I see you out and about on a few threads and I have to ask you a question..

We talked earlier because your thread back in late december was something I needed at that time. You and H were struggling and so am I.

Your posts of late seem to indicate that your H is really making progress. What happened? What is he doing now that is helping and how did you/he get to this point after so long with no real healing?

I am so ready for a change but I am really discouraged and not very hopeful it will come.

If you would rather not discuss it here I will understand.

Thanks for your help.

sweetie---there are no secrets kept from here...LOL! you all know my private life better than me sometimes.

what happened.....simple...i finally had it and went to a deep dark plan b. asked him to leave and packed his stuff. told him i finally realized i could live without him. in actuality i had been doing it for years just didnt realize it.

plan b killed him. he went into a depression and finally realized----SHE AINT PLAYING! made my boundries and stuck to them as if my life depended on it(it did...but ssshhhh)! LOL

he finally got into counseling and i stopped accepting anything less than what me and the kids deserved. at first it was hard and he backslid and i packed him a bag...he got the hint real quick. it was devastating for him....he realized if he is in this ---he better be in it for all he's worth. i at one time in the counselors office heard the ever famous...i dont have time....i looked him and the counselor straight in the face and said---let me alleviate you of the problem.....pack up, let me and the kids go and a huge hunk of your time will be freed up!!! they both looked at me in amazement.....both knew i meant it 100%.

he did individual for awhile and then i joined him in MC. we are finally making progress. he is also on anti-d's finally and dealing with his past and our future.

if you need more info--just ask

let me nutshell it for you---STOP WAITING FOR HIM TO CHANGE....THE CHANGE HAS TO COME FROM YOU. WHAT YOU WILL ACCEPT AND WONT ACCEPT!!!

Wow...all this time I have been trying to get/stay logged on. I haven't had that problem until just now...sigh...

Oh I am soooo chicken to do that (plan b)...but I want to. H has only done a couple of sessions w/ SH and we never finished the homework. I know if I mentioned more counseling he will say we can't afford it. And, he's right. Any talk of counseling and he finds a reason not to do it.

I don't know what it will take for me to finally have enough. I am right now just trying to hang on until the youngest is out of school (3 years) but that is gonna be way too long at this point.

I just want out of the chaos...but I don't know how without hurting the kids. We have an extra house I could live in but I'm afraid it won't have the same effect as if I make him go. (Not sure I could make him go). Plus, the extra house has our office in it. And I am the office person. So, if I live in the "office" that may work better anyway.

Um, I don't mean to be too dense but could you give me an example or two of your boundaries. Sometimes I just have trouble knowing what a boundary should look/feel like. Again, if that is TMI, no problem.


If anyone else wants to help, jump right in!

now keep in mimd my boundries---like yours are comming late in the game....way after d-day and nc.

for me my boundries were---counseling. an active role in recovery. period...a divorce or living apart is way more expensive. accountability for time and money. access to phone and e-mail...i had it anyway...LOL

and the biggie was time spent on us...no excuses.

these are not newbie boundries...this is 3 yrs past d-day. i knew she was gone...hell i made her gone..lol. these were the biggies. there was some reading and other such things but these were the dealbreakers for me...

and what the hell are you protecting your child from...learning how to do the right thing??? dont make me give that speech!!LOLOLOL

M&L---about the whole tmi thing...i look at it like when i was in labor...after awhile of that pain there was no modesty!!! if the hospital plumber walked thru with a better idea to end it sooner i woulda told him go for it!!!

can i ask where you live?

sweetie---you are dying a death of a thousand cuts....i never understood that---i do now! do you?

O.K. Yes, I need to stand up for myself and insist on counseling. I've been afraid to push anything at all. He is the kind that will just keep quite and let me "make demands", aka boundaries, and not comply or participate. I guess when I get to the point I have honestly had enough I can do that.

About the TMI...and the childbirth...funny! I totally agree!
It's funny how modest we are until then and ya think bring em in! Can anybody help me here? Got any good ideas! Let's get this over with!

Anyway, dying a death of a thousand cuts....yes, it makes sense. Do I get it? Maybe not yet.

what is your biggest fear? really think about this and lets work on it

M&L: I've never posted to you, but nikko is onto something in her response to:



Can you afford a divorce? Either way there is a cost, just depends on which one you pay. One is time, the other is money and we all know time is money. Discuss your boundaries with nikko and I think you can work miracles with your H. Best of luck!

What is my biggest fear? That H won't care if I call it quits. He may even be relieved. That he just won't get it that he has to do something to change the dynamics of our marriage. That he will continue to think he cheats because I don't meet his needs and not because he chose to. That he just won't see any reason to try because there is too much wrong.

Recovering H-
I know there is a cost either way. And we are not doing well financially right now. And it doesn't seem like it would get any harder if we separate. I know that is not true, but I am tired of the way our finances are right now. We own a seasonal business so H doesn't work all winter (not that he can't, but he won't) and I don't work outside the home, I help with the business.

Ready to discuss boundaries!

Thanks you two!

i am gonna send some idiot friends(thanks RH) to help you with this...i am going to the yankee/boston game today so i will be gone all day.

your biggest fear is he wont care if you call it quits??? he doesnt care now---why should he care then? and yes ive been through that excuse also....wanna bet he cares...its a bluff...call it!!!!! mine went so far at times to discuss how to separate with me...but when he got asked to leave...man did his head spin around. one of the last things i told him as he was going was......the biggest thing i learned is i can live without you, i CHOOSE NOT TO. BUT I CAN. AND IM OK WITH THAT!

i wanna also touch on the, what seems to me, verbal abuse in your marriage. nothing will work unless the verbal abuse is adressed...that should also be a boundry for you. have you ever video taped him or recorded him to show him how he sounds??? some people have no clue how bad they are...try it.
now---first off, have you got a job??? if not get one.start putting the money away for "the day". its comming one way or another...be prepared.

im gonna go now and i want you to think about all this....youve got to make a plan and start working it...it helps.

m&l,

An Idiot is here.

First of all, you need to figure out the difference between a demand and a boundary. You have a three year old. So you should know what happens if you demand he does something and he refuses, then you don't do anything. He learns that he doesn't have to do what you want. Adults are the same way. He knows you're bluffing and he'll cake eat to his heart's content until he sees a real consequence of his actions.

You know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Plan A and Plan B do work if done correctly. Either the marriage works out or you learn to value yourself enough to live life without someone who consistently causes you pain. Either outcome is an improvement over the life you're currently living.

Which brings me to my next point. Why do you value YOURSELF so lowly? Are you in a comfort zone of living with the misery you know rather than taking a chance? That isn't a healthy way to live.

Are you doing a solid Plan A now? Have you set a timeline for when you've had enough? Read the information on Plan A and Plan B again with new eyes. Plan A can't last forever. What it does do is give him a solid comparison to what he'll be missing if you have to go to Plan B. And remember that Plan A isn't about being a doormat. It's about being the best person that you can, particularly for your own sake. Do things that will build up your own confidence. Get a job, work out, eat right, smile, and see if you can find prorated or free individual counseling for yourself. A lot of people don't realize that Plan A is something that you do for yourself even more than for the marriage. If you can make yourself into someone who you really love, then you won't be so afraid of losing someone who doesn't appreciate what he has.

Nikko talked about making a plan. She's serious. Think about it, write it down, bounce ideas off of our heads, and start to believe that it can work.

Dobie

Good Morning!

Nikko-have a great day, and thanks for sending in the "idiots"!

Dobie-thanks too.

It is interesting that you pick up on verbal abuse. I have thought about that and think there is verbal abuse. Whenever H says something that is nasty or not nice and I tell him about it (that hurt my feelings) he will often mock me. Later I will say something to him and he will say exactly what I told him earlier-something like...don't talk to me like that, you might hurt my feelings. And it's funny because he doesn't see or understand how the things he says sound to others...so I have been thinking of setting up a video camera to show it. (Not sure it is working). And, another thing I have noticed is that he is soooo dramatic. Now, we have a 19 year old daughter who is away at college. She is a classic "I don't want to play by your rules when I'm home because I am all that and a bag of chips since I am so independent and living on my own at COLLEGE" and boy do the sparks fly when she is home. Last time I started to notice how dramatic H is too.! I've just been watching.

About Plan A....well, I think I have made a lot of changes. I am pretty much shut down emotionally now because of his lack of participation and refusal to protect me and my feelings first and foremost.

Right after d-day (#3-and it was 3 1/2 yrs. ago) I was a mess. I had major surgery 1 month after d-day and then it was time to get on with life. I went to counseling (had to drive 100 miles) for a long time and started to feel better about myself. I also went on anti-dep meds while I learned to cope. I have done so much better. This winter I took a few classes through the college outreach and really enjoyed getting out and being around happy people. One of the classes was exercise! It was so fun. I took it both semesters. I have done some cleaning and rearranging and just enjoy life a lot more now. Funny thing is, no matter how much I change H still isn't happy!! He is the one that has told me how he didn't like some of the things I said or ways I said it and I have changed that...and now it's something else. I have come to the conclusion that he absolutely has to do his own work or this will not work. I can not tolerate him leaning on the "my needs weren't being met" line any longer. Not that we have any discussions at all about what went wrong or how I feel. But we used to. Until I realized that he is all about him and he doesn't want to "answer" to me. Or, as I think of it, be accountable.

Thanks you guys. This is good for me. I'm scared to make a plan...but maybe a little relieved too. I can't stand it the way it is.

Hi H&L - I tried to post earlier, but the new board monster ate it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

You've gotten some great advice... I think your comments above say a lot. Your H sounds abusive and he is content to leave things the way they are. If he gets tired of you making changes for him or if you don't change to suit him, he's likely to go and have another affair.

You don't have to put up with that. YOU are in control here, not your H... but only if you choose to take control. Your H commited adultery. As I see it, you have three choices. 1) Live like nothing happens and have an unfullfilling marriage. 2) Divorce him. or 3) Make the changes in yourself that will show your H that you will not tolerate his bad behavior any longer and he will either change and start participating in the M or you will divorce him.

I was a #1 kind of guy after I found out about my W's first A. I acted like nothing happened. She had several more A's that I never found out about until 10 years later... our M got a bit better, but deep down, I wasn't satisfied. When my W confessed to the additional A's, I decided that we were going to go to MC and deal with our issues once and for all.

I can honestly say that our M is better than I ever dreamed it could be. Only you can decide what you are willing to live with... If you aren't satisfied with your M, then come up with a plan to make it better. There are lots of great people here that can help you...

Semper Fi,
RIF

Hi RIF,

We lived like nothing happened after #1 and 2. He went to a treatment center for alcohol addiction and we just chalked the A's up to drinking and lack of control. So imagine my surprise when, after 13 yrs. of not drinking, we have another A. What we gonna chalk that one up to? Me? Of course. I wasn't meeting his needs. And that is true. But that is one thing that confuses the heck out of me with the MB plan. If one is dealing w/ a serial cheater who doesn't take responsibility for their own actions/choices, just meeting their needs seems to only make them happy abusers (of trust/verbally/whatever).

I guess that is where boundaries come in. (Insert lightbulb here). I need some stronger ones. My H is one who respects no boundaries and has no boundaries of his own. It's a family of origin thing with them. (Ya ought to hear the dysfunction there...whoa!)Lots of secrets.

I'll be thinking of a plan today...any and all suggestions are welcome as I ain't too keen on this yet.

Thanks everyone!

Read what I wrote about doing Plan A for yourself again. That's the solution. It's not rewarding him for his behavior, it's you making yourself into a better person. You can do that and erect boundaries at the same time.

Dobie, what did I miss? Did I do something that is rewarding his behavior? Not sure I understand.

I have made me a better person. I'm not where I want to be but I can honestly say I am happier and don't feel so responsible for all that is wrong. I can now say that I am not the reason he had A's. It's not my fault. Nope. Bad marriage? I wasn't very nice for a long time. I could have/should have been a better partner.

Thank you.

It was this statement