i sat him down calmly and just said i couldnt do it anymore. i deserved better than all this. he also deserved to get healthy. i told him i was getting to a point that i just really didnt care and almost hoped i caught him doing something again so i could just walk. if i was getting to that point we had a serious problem. we didnt fight or argue...but then again we never did---he was the worlds greatest conflict avoicer....so no fighting--ever! i also gave him a list of what he needed to do to earn his right back into our family. it was not easy and he panicked and crashed big time...that i think was the hardest....seeing him "fall". he would cry and plead and i would have to stand strong....he saw me as not grieving this as hard as him....lol!! well when he actually had the nerve to say it--boy did i let loose on his conflict avoiding a$$!! not grieving like him...try feeling the way you are right now for the next three years of your life, i told him. wanna glimpse into my world buddy, i lived this for three years while you merrily skipped on pretending all was well!!

that was a turning point for us---he felt it...we have been in counseling since...that was last september.

its not easy--no one will ever tell you it is...but dying a slow death of your soul sucks also!

Well Nikko, that sounds like a great way to go about it and is exactly how I feel too.

The difference will be that mine won't cry or beg. He will figure he is on the right track. He has said before that when everyone else is against him he knows he is on the right path. That has been used in reference to his stock trading activities. He's always talking to everybody about it, and making it look a lot better than it is, but if anybody (me, my mom, his dad, his former trading buddies) would challenge his thoughts or actions he would get mad and say he must be on the right track. So, I don't talk to him about it anymore.

He will probably act like he is taking one on the chin for us while I get this out of my system. I will have to be real ready and prepared for D if I do plan b. I don't think he will budge, and if he does it will take a long time.

I have one issue standing in the way...our son is graduating HS in May and I don't want to be separated during this time in his life.

I, like you, almost wish he would force me by having another A...because I would have to walk away then and I could expose to the whole world. And, I don't think he is far off. But, I guess in reality I don't want it that way because I think I would probably die, or someone else would die this time.

Thanks for being here for me! I really appreciate you.

mine never cried or begged until he realized i meant it....we talked about separating before but there was no teeth to it...this time i had fangs and he knew it!

i can understand about waiting for after graduation...but until them get a plan together and start getting finances in order also. this isnt gonna change itself. he knows your threats are idle...he may even do as you say and act as if it is no big deal.....but then again he may not---you have to know you did everything and are willing to gamble on your own future and happiness......good god---what have you got to loose????

Ya just won't believe what happened.
We got a phone call and it was a gal from H's childhood/teen years...coming through our town, can I stop and visit.
I thought no problem...had a lot of suspicious thoughts..put them aside cuz she is speaking at a christian womens meeting etc...no need to be jealous of anything past of suspicious of anything future...

About a half hour before she shows up H says "do you know the whole story about "******?" I say no and my heart starts racing.

The last time he saw her he was 17 and they got a little carried away on the way home from a trip. A one time thing.

My emotions really confused me...it was in his past...why didn't I know about it before now?...but thankful he told me before and not after she was here.

She just left...I need to finish dinner...I'll come back.

I've had the night to sort through my feelings and this is what I have come up with.

This feels like a mini-d-day to me. I am glad H told me about this before she showed up (because there was reference to it at my kitchen table <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />) but I still have these terrible feelings. I thought I knew about all of his past sexual adventures. And I have always been jealous of them, maybe because of the way he talked about them, happy and giggly type talk, but didn't know about this one, and he knew I didn't know about this one.

Why is this a big deal? One reason I can think of is that after d-day #3, 3 yrs ago, H was mad because I had never been totally honest about my past. So I spilled my guts and told him everything. And I thought he had done the same too over the years. And now I find out there's more. But why should it feel like a betrayal if it was when he was 17 and hadn't even met me?

The only thing that comes to mind is this. How long will I have to deal with HIS sex life? Is there more? I would put thousands on a yes right now.

And ya know what pisses me off...he told me and I asked a few questions...and I was silent as all this went through my mind...and I got a little huffy because this was a big thing with some strange feelings going on and she was due to arrive within an hour....and I just said well lets see how this goes and walked off.

We got almost to the door to the house to go in and he said "ya know this intimate sharing and being honest and not getting any feedback is kind of one-way, I'm always the one sharing and getting nothing back". I said "just the other day you told me you are not responsible for my feelings so I figure you shouldn't be privvy to that information". He just held his hands out, arms up like "What?" and huffed and went inside.

A few minutes later he left the house and I went out and said I have all kinds of feelings going on and I don't understand them right now. He asked if I wanted to go for a walk. I did. We didn't talk about it at all. Nothing.

After this lady left I went out on the deck and asked, well, how did that go for you or how did that make you feel? He said "o.k." and that is all. He was smoking and looking like he was thinking so that's why I asked. But I'll never know what he was thinking.

I hate this. Really bad. All I want is openness and honesty but I don't want it piece meal over my life time.

the feeling of betrayal isnt over her or what happened when he was 17 yrs old. its realizing you still dont know this man when you thought you did. you believed he had been honest with you about his past...and found out he wasnt really. but then again....i dont even think i can recall all of my past if i had to...lol...but that may be my age!!

now onto your answer to him about the sharing....i fully understand where it came from.....but...and here comes the but.....it was a bit snippy. you really have to change that. he expects it and it allows him to continue to behave in his way. change your reaction. say something like thank you for that and i would probably like to discuss it further but i need a little time to process my feelings on it.

I know I was snippy...but it is assinine of him to say sh*t like that when it is so untrue...he gives me one crumb of "open and honest but hurtful" and expects my undying affections? And this is not the first time he has done it this way. I want H & O on a daily basis. Everytime he opens his mouth. Weekly or even monthly would be good.
I am venting. I know I need to be less snippy but I have to say, most of the time I am totally surprised at his words, like the H&O thing. And later he did something just like it in regards to our son. It was outrageous. I have to open my mouth and "call him" on it because it is so opposite. He says one thing one minute and says/does something totally opposite the next. It is making me insane! And I don't even snap or say anything as much as I used to. I have done so much better.

But right now I am totally shut down to him. I have the thickest brick wall between us and I can't bring it down. I am so cold to him right now. I am so sick of his sh*t I can't dare let him in. And I know what it will do but Ican't seem to get out of it. I don't trust him with anything so I can't even share stuff I know because he tells everyone he sees. And if he is not responsible for my feelings then telling him how I feel about it doesn't work either. It is really confusing and non-productive. I can't even stand to be around him right now. I only feel pain and anquish. Maybe he is right. He told me a long time ago that maybe I will never get over this last A. Maybe not. I can't seem to let it go and it hurts me daily as I see his actions revert back to the days leading up to that A and my pulling away for all the same reasons I did then and not being able to change it. O.K. crying now, which is good.

I don't want to feel this way.

im just bumping this up--be back ina bit...

if that is truely how you feel--totally shut down and finished...then its decision and action time. make the choice...choose to stay and complain forever about him...or change YOUR LIFE whether he follows along or not. thats first----choose your road.

Thanks Nikko,
That stings a bit...
I hope you know that I realize I am complaining (I admitted to venting above and know I am doing it) but this is the only place I have to vent and get this out of my system so I can clear my mind and get on with the right thinking. I have absolutely no one else to talk to about this as the A was never exposed and I am not going to run around telling people the things I have said here.

It is time to start making a decision and there are a few things to consider as I work that way. One is the graduation in May. And then, we will be so busy with our business that it will be very difficult to make a change. However, it's not impossible. I am part owner of the business and to pick up and leave would be irresponsible of me. It would need to be planned well. And for me to live in the office and still do books/phone and be in plan B/no contact would not be possible. So, I have a lot to think about in that regard.

What I think will be the best is to get my attitude back where it belongs and try to do better at the plan A stuff. I need to communicate my needs and meet his for the short term. I will continue to tell him when he hurts me (I have given up on that one but must find a way to do it again in a non-LB way because not telling him is causing me resentment) and see if I can get any better results with that. That is a short term plan. I will not be able to stand it like it is for very long. All summer? I don't know. The summers are hell when we are not getting along.

How does that sound to you? Any different ideas? Too much, not enough?

first of all---im not upset about the venting---girl, vent away!!!!!!!! but if you truely want to change things it is gonna have to be you to do it. he may follow, or he may never change....i dont know. what i do know is you are not happy and this is not healthy. i agree with not doing this right before sons graduation...we as parents do have to sometimes..lol(like we dont do it always as mom's!!) put their needs first! but that doesnt mean not get a plan together. get the plan and start slowly working towards it. can i ask what kind of business it is? i also agree that plan b will be hard...however not impossible. do you get a salary that you can put away some money from?

i also agree to getting back to plan a...probably for different reasons though...plan a should give you the strength and knowledge that you are being the best YOU you can be. not just a doormat meeting his needs. it should empower you to know it isnt you with the problem. you should leave it knowing you've changed and done all you can. i had to laugh one day when we were speaking of separating....he was complaining i just wouldnt let "IT" go. (now keep in mind i let the affair go years ago--the thing i fought for was our marriage--not details to the affair) so i laughed and told him go ahead---tell the world how horrible ive been...working really hard and dragging your conflic avoiding a$$ through all this to make our marriage better and stronger and more intimate than before....POOR YOU!! go ahead tell em...just do it in front of me--i wanna see their faces!! man did that throw him!!! that was one of the first things that i think put a chink in his armour! it wasnt about his affair---it was about his behavior since!!!

what i mean is lets get a plan...and its gonna be hard and probably painful...but you are either in it 100% or not...you have to decide. and that is not easy---ive been there. if you want to do this we work it out. if you want out then we work that out.

Nikko, you are wonderful. I appreciate so much how you are helping me.

Well, H and I had an interesting conversation last night. It was funny because it was in 3rd person and H was asking questions. I had a chance to tell him I don't feel very connected to my H and that what I want most in the whole world is to know his innermost thoughts.

H asked my thoughts on the conversation, and I asked him. He said what he heard was that I am more worried about what I need and am not getting than about pleasing my H. I said, is that bad? and he said it's selfish. And its self centered. That totally knocked the wind out of me. I almost cried. I told him that hurt my feelings to be called selfish and self-centered and he looked shocked. He said I am just trying to tell the truth. He also said that is not what he meant but then repeated that I am selfish etc. Now why on earth wouldn't I want to please my H when this is how he talks to me? What am I thinking? Stupid me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I;m just kidding of course...but man it is hard not to react to that. And he even threw in a good ole "it's hard to share and be honest when I am the only one doing the sharing here" for good measure (as I am still in total shock). It's like he holds out one hand full of candy (conversation) and when I reach for it he comes with the other hand and it has a rolling pin in it and he whomps me with it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I have been thinking about this ever since last night and this is what I have come up with for today.
I am going to ask him to please give me an hour sometime today when we can just sit down in private and talk. I will warn him that I want to know what his needs are. All ten of them on questionnaires. Just go through them so I can make notes and learn from him what he needs. We got through 1 & 2 only last year. However, I have read all of his because he left them out and I snooped and he knows this. That has caused me great conflict because he says stuff there that he tells me the exact opposite. Part of that is the way SH had him fill his out. He was to fill his out as if he was applying to a dating service.

A lot of it was pretty hurtful because instead of just saying what he wanted he also said what he didn't want. An example that haunts me is on the forms he wrote for physical attractiveness that he wants good health and someone with a flat belly, not a flabby one. To my face he says my body is not a problem but maybe the truth is that it bothers him. So, I would like him to tell me with his mouth today in all honesty what he needs and how he wants me to do it. I get mixed signals all the time. He just doesn't tell the truth.

I am wondering and have wondered a lot in the past if he just wants me to be home and tending to him only and not involved in the business...I am not sure at all as I get conflicting info.

Our business is landscape supply/farm related....and I do not draw a separate wage from it. I have been thinking about that though and may want to insist I get paid for my hours this summer and put some away. That could work for a leaving plan or a nice surprise for the two of us if we can pull our heads out in the near future.

I have never read a real article or description about plan A. i have only read the posts here about how it is done. I better brush up on it. It's gonna be tough but I want to do it.

We had a very good talk yesterday as all the kids were gone for a long time. I will update you as soon as I get time to post and remember clearly what happened.

ill be waiting--my hubby is home today so im not sure how much i'll be on...suposed to be beautiful and i want to be outside!

i will check on this from time to time though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

wow---we fell to page three! cant let that happen!

you ok? i know what im saying is hard...but remember---ive been there. i also, a long time ago was in an abusive relationship...i know that road too. i know how hard it is, i really do. if you want we can talk about something else for a bit while you digest it all.....got some landscaping questions....about the only thing i can garden is a rock garden!! i do grow weeds really well!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey Nikko,
We fell to the second page again..I saw this earlier this morning but have been too busy to play. And, I need a few minutes to let you know what happened in our talk on sunday and my thoughts since.
I was out of town yesterday with my son at a math competition, and it was in the same town my daughter goes to college and where our favorite baby lives (a little guy we used to watch and still love very much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but he moved away a month ago <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />). It was a triple good day..but long as it is a 3 hour drive each way.

O.K. Sunday. I asked H if he would give me about an hour of his time during the day so we could talk. He said he would love that. I told him I wanted to know the rest of his needs and we could refresh my memory on the first 2.

All the kids leave, we get out the questionnaires....
I ask him to review #1, SF. He tells me about how hard it is for him when that is not right in his life. He laid down the rest of the pages and got really serious and even a little huffy and said that none of the other needs even matter so long as this one isn't being met. That it messes him up that badly. I am understanding as I can see that is true, and I feel the same way when my #1 and 2 aren't met. I do just like him. Shut down. Get mad. Feel rejected. I didn't tell him any of that, I just let him talk. We talked for a couple of hours and then went for a drive.

I was able to tell him how I feel the same if my need for honesty and openess aren't met, and with conversation. That I need to be talked to honestly and openly. He seems to think he does and admits he doesn't "get it", that he just doesn't understand what I mean. I also told him I want to feel protected and safe and right now I don't and I don't think he does either. I told him I would like to have these talks at least once a week and he agreed, saying sunday would probably be a good day as he really tries to lay low then.
We never went back to the questionaires, but I did ask a few questions about some of his answers that I remember and was bothered by.

Since our talk I have been a little more cautious..not sure if anything will change as he is not actively looking for ways to meet my needs (he doesn't know what mine are-only 1 and 2) and thinks that if his are met, everything will fall into place. Because once he has all the SF he needs he will be a happy guy, and who wouldn't love that? I remember in the beginning and that is how it went. I was plan A'ing and I wasn't getting my needs met back. He was a lot nicer and helped with the dishes and was just better to be around...but I got tired of it. It was too one way and I started to resent all the giving. So, I started to shut down again. And now I don't know if I have it in me to do it again, especially where he has admitted that he doesn't "get it". Do I have to teach him? And how?

Oh, during our conversation we talked about this old friend of his that came last week, and he said he wondered if he should have apologized to her or made amends or anything. I kept my chin up around my face and off the floor for awhile, and then said I didn't understand why he would think he owes her apology and that after what we have been through he has not apologized to me.

Well, he said very sincerely that he was sorry, but that just saying he is sorry is sort of hollow, that it is only words and can not convey how sorry he is. Talking about forgiveness, he said he didn't believe that what he did was forgivable and he doesn't deserve to be forgiven and so he cannot even begin to ask for my forgiveness. I admitted that I have not totally forgiven him as I still bring it up, but I was working on it.

It was good, but really nothing new I guess. Now, what do i want to do with it? Do I have it in me to do again? Not sure right now.

Sorry so long...and thanks for checking on me!