K, ask him how he can "prove" it you. It is HIS JOB to reassure you and he needs to think of ways to do this. Some of the ways could be to account for all of his time. I don't know your lives but he needs to be the one to prove it. You shouldn't have to ask any questions.

Statements like "well, this does no good because I could hide it anyway," are not going to work. If showing you the cell phone bills is not enough, then ask him what would be enough to prove it. It is HIS JOB, K, to rebuild trust, not yours. Ask him what his plan is to rebuild trust and quit taking responsibility for HIS JOB by asking him questions.

Early on you should have ways to prove and check that NC is in place. At some point, you release that and just know in peace in your heart what you would do if contact had resumed. It is about peacefulness within yourself. In the state your H is in right now, you CAN make progress, especially with the MC helping you. You will feel it in his attitude if contact starts again. Everytime we got stuck or he had a weird attitude in my case, it was b/c OW got through to him. I knew he wanted our M but was having a hard time just cutting her off b/c of guilt. He felt he was with me and she had nothing. Remember, this is early on.

So check the emails, the cell phone etc. but don't make that your sole focus. This is about him stepping up and deciding to do it because it is the right thing for him and you and your M.

Orchid: Hi K, I'm not Mel or Anne but if you let me give my 2 cents, it may give you another POV. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

U r at a critical time where many BS make the mistake of thinking if they do whatever the WS says, they are in recovery and that is the end of their work. Nope. Not exactly.

What your Xws says above is a manipulating tactic where he just lost some of his Xws points to stay home. Inform him that YOUR home is a valued place to live. He lost the right to live there when he committed his A. So if he chooses to talk or see the OW, he can because he already did but he will lose his rights. Yea, he will make a big deal about that and that is where you need a plan.



Orchid: Just a start. Nothing to get excited about. He has to put on a good front for you. But it is up to you t/b convinced or duped by it. Don't be duped.


Orchid: Let him make his plans, keep busy and keep doing stuff for you. You are NOT obligated t/b happy around him all the time. Do not be phony about your happiness. It is his job to make you happy and in turn and in time you will make him happy. Don't rush to make him comfortable. He is still at best an Xws.


Orchid: But they could. Easily. Mine came back home over 2 years before the A ended and had a better attitde. Not a good one but a better one. I made the mistake of giving him back his home and family privileges too soon and had to endure the A for 2 more years. I didn't realize it then but after a while I learned to withhold family privileges and when mine gave that speech about how he could go see the OW behind my back, I agreed and showed him the door. Even though at the time he claimed he hadn't that bad attitude was enough to make him lose his rights to live in our home. That had to happen a few more times before the end of the A. Of course that also put a big crunch in the A, it was never smooth sailing for them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: Let him know in small increments that you have talking needs. I came up with a way to approach the Xws without getting him angry. I outlined that plan with him and used those same entry words even with non R talk stuff. That way, he never had the time to develope a bad attitude since he never really knew what I was going to ask. I also stipulated that if he answered in an unfounded angry state, it scared me and if that happned enough, he would lose his rights to live with his family. At first he balked, but I stuck to my guns. In other words, it was now easier for him to leave the home but I was making it easier not the WS. WS' don't like when the BS shows control even if it c/b to their A benefit. Use that to your advantage and don't let him bully you.


Orchid: This is a common BS feeling. Also one that is not safe for you. That is why it is critical for you to come up with a plan.


Orchid: This is not what recovery s/b like. This is the metamorphis of a WS to an Xws. He could easily go the other way. He is still in that transiet state pretending to be fully recovered. He isn't. Don't be fooled and don't let him think he is recvered.


Orchid: Good question. In recovery you should understand what it takes to make you feel safe, show value for your home and family, have a plan and an action plan of how to handle his withdrawals and do not tolerate his bad attitude or manipulative ways. Raise your standards not lower them. Each time he loses his privileges, his route for return and the stakes required go up.


Orchid: I did, din't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take care,
L.

hi k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

K,
I just wanted to say that you can "listen" to your gut.

If it feels different this time, it probably is.

I don't want to be "indescrete" but do you ............sleep together??

This too, will be a great indication, whether it is "different" this time or not.

Once my husband and I became "intime" again, I knew that things were going the right direction.

Listen "very carefully" to your gut.

I believe that this is a very "delicate" time in recovery. It's the best time to "live the best life" and to show him the "true you".

I'm only talking about what I experienced and shortly after d-d, we went through a fantastic time.
We went for a two week holiday to the Carabic and we had so many "romantic" times.
This really "drew us together" and my husband really knew that being with me was the best thing he could think of.

I hope that this makes sence to you. (I am a very romantic and emotional person)
But I am happy that I was able to bring over the "true me" to my husband during this very "painfull" time of my life.

I didn't know anything about MB at that time.....so I guess it was my instinct.

We didn't talk about our relationship until a few weeks after d-d. This went in many steps.

When I think back now..........it's a real "WOW" feeling. It was alot of work when I do think back.

So be prepared..............there will be many "2 Steps forwards.1 Step back" situations.

My husband was frustrated many times and I know that I almost drove him crazy at times. The endless questions and
many "panik attacts" from my side.

I went through so many emotions and I became "suicidal" one time. Depression followed.

This really changed once I found out about MBers. It saved my life and it saved my marriage.

I am "now" more than confident and the best thing of all, I have learned to "trust myself".
I have learned that finding a "direction" in my life is the most important thing of all.

Therefore I would like to tell you to stick with your plan.
Believe in yourself and "live" for what you believe in.

Go forward with your life, no matter what.
Your husband will have to find out what he "truely wants" and it is up to him to "go for it".

You will never be able to "change him" but your reactions will for sure give him "reasons" to want to change......

Give this all the time in the world........give it the time that you need. You are in "NO" rush to recover.

I can really say that my marriage has gotten better after every "blow up".
My husband has grown so much............without me having to tell him.

I have just learned to "stick to "MY" beliefs"...........and I think that this is very important. There are NO "Ifs and whens" when it comes to what I believe in.

I believe in "honesty and openness in a relationship"
I believe in "no secretes".........
I believe in NO relationships with the other sex when the partner is not aware of it.
I believe in NO dicussions concerning my marriage with the other sex.
I believe in getting answers to my questions even if it hurts...............

all these things are important to me and I "live them".

Within time, my husband has realized that it really does work and that it really does make sence to follow with these things.

I always told him what I thought and felt and I never told /demanded this from him.

It wasn't very easy at times to "live what I believe in".........but it sure has had a positive effect.

I feel that my husband loves/respects me more than ever in his life.

So please "stay strong".............you are the strong one in your relationship right now, even if you might not feel it right now or at times.

take care
bb

I agree with what everyone is advising -

The practical advice of Orchids especially the part about develping a plan to approach him with questions, easy ones which have nothing to do with the past betrayals as well as R and trust talks. It's kind of like classical conditioning where he trusts the questions and the way you will handle them so he feels safe when you approach him with the more difficult questions, because you approach them all the same way. "honey, can I ask you a question?" "do you like this outfit on me? or "would you help me put in some flowers?" and use the same technique for leading into a questions re: the affair.

I also really like what BB is saying about the choices she has made for her life/relationship that she will not compromise on.

I never recovered my relationship, but I did recover my heart and my faith/joy in life. And what Anne said really hit home for me. It's about having peace in your heart because you trust YOURSELF that you will know what to do, and you will be able to do it if you are ever forced with that situation again. It's also about having faith in love, your love K. You can trust yourself and this is what it really takes not only to recover a broken marriage but to live a happy life regardless of what storms blow in along the way.

You can't trust him right now, but you must trust yourself. You have learned and grown so much during this ordeal and you are no longer the little bird with the broken wings and crushed spirit. You are an eagle now and you know that you can handle anything and thrive.

And you have alot of friends/support along the way now, so if he backslides you are not going to have to face it alone.

bumping up for K!!!!

Hi Mel, Anne, Weaver, bb, Orchid, and LovingB....

Thanks for your replies. And thanks for your support. I do take everything to heart that you all give me. And there is so much to think about.

We have been very busy. I'm tired.

Needless to say, WH has done nothing so far as I can see regarding changing his passwords back, or making out any kind of plans, or providing any kind of proof. (I would like to see something in writing) And I agree, Mel, it's his damn JOB to do that.

It kind of makes me feel like our M is still not #1 on his list. Even tho his attitude and actions toward me have changed a LOT!!

We have MC on Saturday. I started changing the way I ask WH things. This morning I said the "can I ask you a question" thing, and then asked if we could stop and get my nails done before we go to MC so I wouldn't have to make an extra trip to town (cost of gas consideration). He said that would be fine with him.

I'm sure he was gearing up for an R or NC question, even tho he was cheerful enough with his "yes, you can ask me a question". No defensiveness, or anger.

WH has started reading HN/HN (I have read it twice). So, I am going to ask him to fill out the EN questionaire.

My #1 need is for openness and honesty. Most of my greatest needs seem to be driven by the past 3 years. I'm sure needs change in rating of importance during a lifetime.

Yesterday, I got the mail, and opened everything when I got it home. Threw away the junk, and put WH's mail in a pile on the table. When he got home, he said he wished I wouldn't look at his mail unless he was there. I told him that was fine, but I didn't look at it, I just opened everything up when I got home.

I'm not expecting everything to come along quickly, but I wish my WH would step up to the plate a little quicker.

I told him in MC last time that his putting off doing his "homework" for MC made me feel like he wasn't putting me or our M first. He said he was too tired and busy to have done it quicker. Just sounded like excuses to me.

He has IC tomorrow. He needs it. I think he is emotionally developmentally delayed. (Now, wasn't that politically correct!)

Needless to say, my confusion grows.

K

hi k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It seems to be a common thing that in the beginning a FWS becomes busy with doing things that they have neglected or put off during the affair. I think it's especially true for a FWH and I wonder if it's because men tend to be "doers" and need tangible measures of their progress?

However, it took me a long time to realize that it was different with my FWH. He ONLY did the "busy" things when it was a means to avoid spending time on MB homework. Other times he wasn't "busy" at all. In fact, once I realized this, I used it to my advantage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . If I wanted him out of my face for couple hours, all I had to do was mention reading some of a MB book and it sent him running to do laundry! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think it's too soon to tell in your situation k, but since our FWH's have other things in common I thought I'd mention it to you. It took me way too long to see the pattern, and I felt like a real chump for believing pretty words instead of the real actions (or none).

Take care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quickly before I get logged off-I had a huge post to you yesterday that disappeared--they go at their own pace. You have ways to check contact, right? You sent the NC letter, now you periodically check when you feel you need to. He accounts for his time away from you.

Read JavaPrincess's post on Recovery Board.

Be patient. Keep to the plan and MC. The progress will be slower than you want.

Check out Suviving Betrayal a daily mediation by Alice May.

Hi LovingB and Anne.....

I keep writing a reply, but never seem to get the time to actually post it.

Right now, the only thing I have to go on (as far as knowing if there is NC) is WH's attitude. I haven't asked him anything, and he still hasn't changed his passwords on his voice mail at work, work cell, or personal cell.

I don't feel suspicious. I don't think he's not changing the passwords on purpose. I just don't think it has crossed his mind yet.

And as for the NC letter, SH told me not to send it. Mainly because he didn't think WH wrote it because he wanted to...but under pressure from me during the last Plan B.

So, am I really sucked in again this time? It doesn't feel that way, but looking at things on "paper", it sure looks that way.

And I think I said it before.....WH is emotionally "retarded".....I just don't think he gets it. Or, maybe he does, and just doesn't think it's really necessary.

Thanks,

Stupid K

Oh k, sweetie....

You are not stupid! You are a woman with hope and love! What's wrong with that??

Actually, you are a smart woman with hope and love! Why? Because you are following advice that is very hard to implement--advice that gives you the best chance to have the kind of marriage that celebrates your love instead of takes it for granted or abuses it.

k, it is way too soon to know if your marriage can or should be saved. Continue being smart, because YOU will be fabulous either way! Also, your continuing to be smart might be the only way your H can become fabulous too. That is and will be his decision to make many times--just like it has been and will be your decision to make many times. So far, you've chosen to become more fabulous every time!!

Take care Fabulous <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi LovingB...

You are right, it is too soon to know anything yet.

I called WH this morning and asked him if he had changed his passwords on his various phones back to what they were. I said I hadn't checked them, but was just wondering.

He said yes, but he had not changed his work cell phone back yet.

Well, I called his work phone, and he has not changed it back. Or his work cell.

I don't want to push, but I want to see something happen. I think what Orchid said kind of sums it up....he has to earn the "privilege" of being with me.

He has IC today, so this all should give him something to talk about.

He is still acting great as far as his attitude, affection, and attentiveness goes.

Trying not to be Stupid K

K:

Goodluck with all of this with your WH. I think if you could read what you are writing objectively you would not be so confused. But that is ok, it will hopefully come in your own time. This will be the last post I leave on your thread. There is absolutelely nothing of value I can possibly add to your plight. Goodluck with your marriage and Former WH.

LM

Lemonman,

Did ya just come on to kick a little dirt in some faces today?

I went and looked up what else ya been up to and all the replies are the same as above. Hmmm. What's up with that? Nothing encouraging to say?

K,
You are not "pushing" him, just enforcing YOUR boundaries. He should not and most likely can not be just "trusted" with NC yet. He MUST put up all safeguards not to be lured back in, either by her or his addiction. He "acts" well b/c he knows he can do that and satisfy you.

You need to tell him what you NEED to feel safe and wanting to work on the M. Until the A is over, withdrawal has been completed, you can't really get far.

I have been there. Without safeguards--working together to ensure no contact, it is too easy to start the whole cycle again. I know you feel OK that you can handle that, but if you want the M, you need to work together. It is not pushing, it is deliniating what you NEED. If he cannot try to meet your needs in this way, he has a very, very long way to go and you need to realize that.

Minor threadjack k.....let me know if you mind, ok?

I didn't see this as LM kicking dirt in k's face. In fact, LM has been helpful to k before. I thought LM sounded supportive and encouraging--something that he seems to have trouble expressing in ways that make it apparent that's what he feels.

LM, is this your way of poking your head in the door and saying that you think you see something that might be helpful to k, but you're not sure if your view would be welcome so you don't want to jump in? Maybe a different approach would work too? I'll bet that k wouldn't mind you practicing on her thread--maybe ask her? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Btw, I don't think LM is all that sour--I think he just has trouble exposing his sweetness.

Threadjack over.....thanks k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Surviver: (minor thread jack)

Well, in all honesty I can see why you say that by reading my posts today. That's a reasonable assumption, but no where near the truth. My "support" is very uncoventional, and in my opinion, there is more than enough "encouraging" support from others here. I think you are right in a way though. If I cannot offer "conventional" encouragement, it is sometimes better not to post at all because people's frail psyches get offended (and this is undertandable). In my honest heart of hearts opinion, I think WE can do more harm to people when we encourage them to enable these WS and their continued betrayals my "supporting" them at times. Does that make me an uncompassionate A-hole for thinking like this.....Maybe, depends on how you look at it.

As is often expressed here, people should use this message board and take pieces of advice or opinion and leave the rest. Obviously one stroke does not fit all. If giving my opinion is seen as "not encouraging", well then I know that there are enough other posts to defray what I am saying. In the end, it is all good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

MOst posters here KNOW what they get when they read my posts or opinions. They can take it or leave it, that is A-ok with me.


Good day to you.

LM

I have found LemonMan to be extremely supportive in this forum. "Support" means much more than saying cute and nice words. LM's communication style is very straightforward and that is just how he is.

My apologies...I am sorry to have caused a problem.

I misinterpreted the tone of the message LM.

I am sorry!